Cam upgarde

[blabla]

Im looking at upgrading the cams to type R cams I have a b16a2. Any suggestions of who does these sorts of modification in SYD other then Good Performance. I have been quoted almost $1300 to change cams, valve springs, valve seals, cam seals, rocker cover gasket and labour. Is it worth getting a port and polish done on the head and will have to change the intake mani?

All opinions wlecom.

[Louis - Type S]

Check this thread out.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91415


As for installation Toda Au should be able to help you out.

[TODA AU]

I have been quoted almost $1300 to change cams, valve springs, valve seals, cam seals, rocker cover gasket and labour. Is it worth getting a port and polish done on the head and will have to change the intake mani?

All opinions wlecom.

$1300 for all that is cheap... :thumbsup:
We won't beat that.

Re port & polish,
At that level of mod, the best you can expect is an extra 5kw accross most of the rev range for around an extra $1k

Re whether it's worth it...
Mate, it's really up to you if it's worth it.
Some guys chase every hp regardless of cost,
Other work to a strict budget.

[blabla]

Will Intake manifold have to get changed. Because that is what i was told. He said that I would have to change it to a type R mani .


Is this correct?

[trism]

to get the best out of it, then yes, you should

[blabla]

iv got headers on there now would i need to change them aswell or will it be fine? xforce 4-2-1.

[TODA AU]

If you fit all the parts as described incl intake manifold & keeping your headers,
To get the most out of it you'd need a VAFC II fitted & tuned as a minimum,
Ideally a full ECU tuning solution would be better.

[blabla]

If you fit all the parts as described incl intake manifold & keeping your headers,
To get the most out of it you'd need a VAFC II fitted & tuned as a minimum,
Ideally a full ECU tuning solution would be better.

my ecu has been chipped though. I have thought about piggy backing it with a apexi neo. would that do the job

[Benson]

You got a Crome ECU, its like an Hondata already.

Why go for VAFC or apexi Neo? its an cheap upgrade from a stock ECU, but since you have the Crome, just need to get it retune.

If your gettin valve train done, might as well go for a bigger cam

[fatboyz39]

[quote=TODA AU;1988746]$1300 for all that is cheap... :thumbsup:
quote]

Yeap sure is cheap. I would imagine all parts listed are used items. At the very least get new valve springs.

IMO i would get a set of new valve springs and some slightly bigger cams (BC spec 3's, toda A's, Skunk2 pro1's). You can reuse the stock b16a retainers as they will handle 9000rpm no probs.

Intake manifold not really necessary, but it'll help it breathe better.

[bennjamin]

IMO , if you havent already - put that $1300 into a hd clutch and light flywheel. Also rear swaybar. Much better response to your $$$ input than any cams.

[blabla]

[quote=TODA AU;1988746]$1300 for all that is cheap... :thumbsup:
quote]

Yeap sure is cheap. I would imagine all parts listed are used items. At the very least get new valve springs.

IMO i would get a set of new valve springs and some slightly bigger cams (BC spec 3's, toda A's, Skunk2 pro1's). You can reuse the stock b16a retainers as they will handle 9000rpm no probs.

Intake manifold not really necessary, but it'll help it breathe better.


This is the stuff they said will be new the cam seals, cam valve seals, valve springs.

[dsp26]

^^for 1.8l benny hell yes... light fly didn't make much diff in my b16 when we put it in.

and i recall in another thread even you said something along the lines of noticability is also dependent available torqu which the 1.6l doesn't have :p

[blabla]

IMO , if you havent already - put that $1300 into a hd clutch and light flywheel. Also rear swaybar. Much better response to your $$$ input than any cams.

I've got type R clutch and fly in there already and also a sway bar

[bennjamin]

ok disregard my obvious plug.

But really IMO dont even bother with type r cams. Either get serious upper head work or leave it.

[bennjamin]

^^for 1.8l benny hell yes... light fly didn't make much diff in my b16 when we put it in.

and i recall in another thread even you said something along the lines of noticability is also dependent available torqu which the 1.6l doesn't have :p

you are correct - my point is bang for buck i guess
:thumbsup:

[blabla]

you are correct - my point is bang for buck i guess
:thumbsup:


ok and?

Do what?

suggestions?

i even looking at just throwing on jc racing sc and thats $2800

[bennjamin]

work it out on paper...the amount of money spent vs the amount of useable power you get. Turbo is better bang for buck vs SC.

NA work isnt bang for buck. Its a money pit. But you DO know this owning a honda right lol ?

[dsp26]

work it out on paper...the amount of money spent vs the amount of useable power you get. Turbo is better bang for buck vs SC.

NA work isnt bang for buck. Its a money pit. But you DO know this owning a honda right lol ?

quoted for truth!!!

BlaBla - see the link posted in post#2... ask anyone in that thread how much it cost them to get to a certain stage.

excluding my re-rebuild which i'm up for now my head assembly including parts cost around $3k and those parts i managed to source for cheap or 2nd hand on here....

honestly... boost it... you have to be the type to appreciate what little NA power can give you for $$$... my motivation was legality and insurance.

[blabla]

work it out on paper...the amount of money spent vs the amount of useable power you get. Turbo is better bang for buck vs SC.

NA work isnt bang for buck. Its a money pit. But you DO know this owning a honda right lol ?

I know that trying to keep a any sort of car na is Pricey. I dont like the idea of turbo if i was going to go with turbo i would of thrown a turbo onto my old engine D16y8.

Even if i had the choice of worked turbo motor or worked N/A motor i would go for the N/A.

[Benson]

If your going bang for buck, look at bigger displacement.

If i recall right, you have all the parts perfect for a B20vtec or B18c Bottom end upgrade.

Look into Hybrid engines b16a/b20, b16a/b18c

[blabla]

If your going bang for buck, look at bigger displacement.

If i recall right, you have all the parts perfect for a B20vtec or B18c Bottom end upgrade.

Look into Hybrid engines b16a/b20, b16a/b18c

b18c vtir or c7r b20b/a/z?

[blabla]

If i did do that where would i got to get an engineering certificate and they are like 600 bux+

[bennjamin]

get a b18c7 - no need for engineering. and a dead stock setup should pull your car to low 14's if not high 13's. proven.

[blabla]

get a b18c7 - no need for engineering. and a dead stock setup should pull your car to low 14's if not high 13's. proven.

Too Pricey couldnt afford to get one when i was looking also that is the reason y i went the for b16a i even looked at the b18c vtir but that 8gees when i was looking

so am i better off going the buddy club spec 3+ if i am going to do head work

[fatboyz39]

get a b18c7 - no need for engineering. and a dead stock setup should pull your car to low 14's if not high 13's. proven.

power to weight is the KEY.

[fatboyz39]

Too Pricey couldnt afford to get one when i was looking also that is the reason y i went the for b16a i even looked at the b18c vtir but that 8gees when i was looking

so am i better off going the buddy club spec 3+ if i am going to do head work

Wait till the currency picks back up and buy it from ebay US. Much cheaper then AUS traders/dealers here.

[RtN]

That 1300 includes all the parts brand new??

[blabla]

That 1300 includes all the parts brand new??

Not all the parts brand new. new timing belt, seals and springs.

the cams are second hand. the labour is 400.

[blabla]

Is it worth putting a b18c bottom end on or just change the motor again i got a quote on changing it was 2780 including parts and labour.

[bennjamin]

that $ could equal the difference in plopping a b18c7 in there (just engine and gearbox , re use everything else). buy engine $5k say , install , sell b16a2......you would be around the same price as you mentioned above.
IE cost you essentially $2-2.5k

[blabla]

plus rear brakes. how much am i looking at to buy a b18c7. then labour. I would do it myself but i dont have time. the price of the motor is 1800.

[Benson]

b18c7 are going for 3.5k if you can find one.

2.0l > 1.8l

[bennjamin]

plus rear brakes. how much am i looking at to buy a b18c7. then labour. I would do it myself but i dont have time. the price of the motor is 1800.

you dont need 5 lug
your standard brakes are fine....upgrade pads tho

[bennjamin]

2.0l > 1.8l


indeed. :thumbsup:

[blabla]

indeed. :thumbsup:

You guys are confussing me. Freekin hell.

All i want to do get some more power with having to turbo or supercharge it. Iv got ecu headers cai and a tune.

i'd love some more down low and just little bit more top end.

[Benson]

B20vtec is your answer

Like i said, you have most bolt-ons mods already... So adding a bigger bottom end will open it up.

Driveability will be heaps better down low and you would need to rev it so hard to make it go quick

Expected power output with your current mods around the 115kw mark with more torque than a b18c7

[blabla]

B20vtec is your answer

Like i said, you have most bolt-ons mods already... So adding a bigger bottom end will open it up.

Driveability will be heaps better down low and you would need to rev it so hard to make it go quick

Expected power output with your current mods around the 115kw mark with more torque than a b18c7

Wont the b20 site higher then the b16a. Does that mean id have to look at changing the headers?

and wouldnt it be safer to sleeve the block

[fatboyz39]

A well built LS block with b16a pistons will suit your needs.

[Benson]

Those headers are designed for a B18c so it will fit the the B20 no problems..

There is no need to sleeve. Just needs to be tuned right.

You only need to sleeve it if it gettin turbo or reving past 9200rpm

[blabla]

still not idea what to do.

b18c7 head on b16a bottom ?
b16a head on b18c bottom?

clueless.!

[bennjamin]

you clearly are.

but , take notice of a few things here. One is your engine will not make much more power or "feel" NA , on a budget. Answering your original question tho , IMO upgrading your cams to the ITR set isnt worth it.save up $5k and decide then.

[fatboyz39]

just turbo it.

[squish85]

have a bigger displacement bottom block.. e.g. B16 head + B20 block ..

[blabla]

Im just going to find a b18c bottom end then possible some head work.. Im not a turbo fan.

If i was going turbo it would be selling car and going F6 Typhoon or Ev8-9 FQ series

[TODA AU]

If either bottom end (B18C/B20B~Z) is going to remain stock, you'll get better results with a B20.
If you're going to build the bottom end, the balance can swing back in favour of the B18C

[Benson]

there is heaps of good tips here hopefully you make the right choice

I wouldn't bother with a b18c bottom end, not worth it with the cost involved.. like ben said your better off with a type r engine and sell off your b16a2.

if you are going to retain the b16a head do the 2.0l bottom

[blabla]

there is heaps of good tips here hopefully you make the right choice

I wouldn't bother with a b18c bottom end, not worth it with the cost involved.. like ben said your better off with a type r engine and sell off your b16a2.

if you are going to retain the b16a head do the 2.0l bottom

Just gonna take my time. And this time make the right choice.

[Louis - Type S]

Hay blabla - go the B18C7 + Gearbox route dude, I did and can honestly say I am very very happy with the results. I know its abit pricey but it is well worth it, puts a smile on my face everytime i take it for a spin.

[VT1-R]

erm.. get b20 like most are saying.. gd value and chop some stock turbos for sure..

also.. get some lighter wheels with ur cams job and a full ECU to tune it to perfection.. will feel a diff then.. just cams esp. CTR, i have seen online that best gain is 5-8whp tuned.. So all that for 5-8whp.. either go better cams or just get full ECU(about 10whp++) 1st.. and in the future do b20 vtec when u rich..

coz i bought CTR cams months ago and realize the shit n $$ involved to do it vs the gains.. its jus not worth it so i sold it.. anyway its up to u.. gd luck!!

[blabla]

erm.. get b20 like most are saying.. gd value and chop some stock turbos for sure..

also.. get some lighter wheels with ur cams job and a full ECU to tune it to perfection.. will feel a diff then.. just cams esp. CTR, i have seen online that best gain is 5-8whp tuned.. So all that for 5-8whp.. either go better cams or just get full ECU(about 10whp++) 1st.. and in the future do b20 vtec when u rich..

coz i bought CTR cams months ago and realize the shit n $$ involved to do it vs the gains.. its jus not worth it so i sold it.. anyway its up to u.. gd luck!!

Ive got an ecu already u mean lighter cam gears ye?

Just going to put cams & port n polish for now then later on i am going to do the bottom end.

[dsp26]

^^^port and polish is ~$600 on top.

as Adrian (Toda Au) already mentioned can you justify ~5kw for $600... that $600 is better spent on an intake manifold and throttle body.

As some builders will mention, port/polsi + port matching are the cherry on top of the cream.. the absolute last race car tricks to squeeze that extra bit of power.. they are by no means value for money in terms of power.


what Ecu do you have and who 'chipped it'?.. it will still cost you about $650+ to get it CROME tuned... Hondata is better for tuning resolution and will cost you extra.

for the cost of all that work as others have said its better to just get a B18c/B18b/B20 block and you'll be happier with it.

take it from me, i have a 1210kg Del Sol (with half tank and no driver and i'm 85kg)... my car is now somewhere in the vicinity of 110-115wkw and it still feels like shit below 6krpm despite the average 5-8wkw gain in the low and midrange.... at the end of the day theres still no torque.

most of the guys here who have well built B16a's still have a stripped or light chassis of sorts....

so all that together, labour,cams,tune,complimentary parts is still around ~$3k which already costs more than a block swap that will provide more usable power....

having a dyno queen figure of 110-120wkw on a B16a is just that.. its power that usually sits between 7000-9000rpm of which you'll never be in during daily drive.... all the other rpm your probably in the 80-100kw range with shitall torque.

if you can get a B18b2 block then go for it, at least you can use your P30 pistons from the B16a block to increase the compression significantly to take advantage of future camshaft upgrades.... the b16a block isn't worth shit.. may as well make the most out of it :)

Just FYI to give you a benchmark against my costs (and i managed to source these hell cheap)
BC3+ cams = $800
Toda A valve springs = $150 second hand from forum
Valve stem seals = $30 for the set or $8ea from Honda Australia
WP/TB/Tensioner = $150
Labour (inc. notching valve reliefs in pistons) + Head work (inc. shave/valve seating and assembly) = $1300
AEBS Intake Manifold = $300 from US
68mm TB = $200 from US
Buddy Club Head gasket 0.5mm = $129 from OH Trader (JDMYard)
Vision 5-bolt Cam Gears = $150 from US

[blabla]

what is the next step up from the ITR cams mhe screw the pnp use it for something else

[dsp26]

Also if the cams your getting require dual valve springs the head has to come off anyway... i suggest you source yourself some flat-faced valves from the US for about $300 delivered.. this will give you an additional 0.5:1 compression ratio... higher CR is the key to making bigger cams work.


what is the next step up from the ITR cams mhe screw the pnp use it for something else
Toda A/A2 Spec
Skunk2 Stage 1
Buddy Club 3+

all of which require stiffer springs... as do the ITRs anyway.....

[Benson]

I wouldn't bother with headwork. . you'll only get dyno numbers and not drivability....

take dsp26 as an example.... not worth it ..I guess he has the right parts for a b20vtec...

Look at our b16a2... so much work for little gains...

[mocchi]

I wouldn't bother with headwork. . you'll only get dyno numbers and not drivability....

take dsp26 as an example.... not worth it ..I guess he has the right parts for a b20vtec...

Look at our b16a2... so much work for little gains...

lol i pity you. jk. haha
i still love your engine bay :p

TORQUE FTMFWB!

[Benson]

Our little b16a2 isn't so shy ....its not an average b16a2.

[tangman]

having a dyno queen figure of 110-120wkw on a B16a is just that.. its power that usually sits between 7000-9000rpm of which you'll never be in during daily drive.... all the other rpm your probably in the 80-100kw range with shitall torque.



just wanted to know how much a 4.9 final drive would help increase torque with the above setup.

cheers


Tang

[bennjamin]

just wanted to know how much a 4.9 final drive would help increase torque with the above setup.

cheers


Tang

a final drive will not increase torque at all.

[ZeForce]

a final drive will not increase torque at all.

It will increase the torque atw since gearing multiplies torque

[mocchi]

It will increase the torque atw since gearing multiplies torque

thats right y0!

btw zeforce i love your build :D

[ZeForce]

just wanted to know how much a 4.9 final drive would help increase torque with the above setup.

cheers


Tang

4.9/4.4 = 1.11

=> ~11% increase in torque atw


thats right y0!

btw zeforce i love your build :D


lol thanks

[dsp26]

I wouldn't bother with headwork. . you'll only get dyno numbers and not drivability....

take dsp26 as an example.... not worth it ..I guess he has the right parts for a b20vtec...

Look at our b16a2... so much work for little gains...

yah.. i guess the lesson here for the OP is that if you can't afford to go the lengths all the way then you will be spending money and still won't be happy.. the only logical choice is to be like everyone else who just do I/H/E and be done with it or actually 'finish' something....

these are the options for complete:
- B16 = Built Head with all the correct components working together and at least the FD
- B18c7 + lsd 4.7fd gearbox and be done with it
- CRVTEC(b20vtec) or LSVTEC(b18b2vtec) with mild head work

If you can't afford any of them then stay with what you already have and be happy with it and save for your next great buy of a car.... if you want, PM me and you can drive my car... should be out of the workshop next week.

This is the curse of a HoonDuh... "Horsepower sells cars, Torque wins races"... HoonDuhs were never designed to be amazingly fast on the straight, but rather, more than adequate HP for trackwork in combination with sussy/chassis/brake setup. The first step in truly appreciating the ownership of a Honda is to understand the manufacturers purpose.... i understand it now after coming from faster cars and being.. in a sense, 'disappointed' with a worked B16a....

this is why i feel sorry for all the hoon civic drivers that always "vtec yo" and 'think' they have a fast car... they don't understand what fast is and what it takes to win a race in its many forms... you have to have a purpose for your build and set your goals and budget accordingly...

it's called project management, i hope it's something thats taught at school these days, it sure as hell hard to learn through consequences in a corporate environment :p




***EDIT***
But we know your not going to listen anyway lol... I had the same mentality and did it all anyway... some people only accept the answers the hard way

[Paul1985]

There is no replacement for displacement.

Go with the 2.0lt bottom end.

$1300 you would be pushing any of the options people mention. Hidden costs always suck.

[bennjamin]

It will increase the torque atw since gearing multiplies torque

Its a short answer no , long answer "...It will increase the torque atw since gearing multiplies torque..." ;)

[mocchi]

yah.. i guess the lesson here for the OP is that if you can't afford to go the lengths all the way then you will be spending money and still won't be happy.. the only logical choice is to be like everyone else who just do I/H/E and be done with it or actually 'finish' something....

these are the options for complete:
- B16 = Built Head with all the correct components working together and at least the FD
- B18c7 + lsd 4.7fd gearbox and be done with it
- CRVTEC(b20vtec) or LSVTEC(b18b2vtec) with mild head work

If you can't afford any of them then stay with what you already have and be happy with it and save for your next great buy of a car.... if you want, PM me and you can drive my car... should be out of the workshop next week.

This is the curse of a HoonDuh... "Horsepower sells cars, Torque wins races"... HoonDuhs were never designed to be am....


***EDIT***
But we know your not going to listen anyway lol... I had the same mentality and did it all anyway... some people only accept the answers the hard way

LEARN FROM THIS MAN! :eek: first hand experience!

youre so cool can i be your friend? hehe

[blabla]

1 question, who else in sydney does the b20 bottom end conversions. Gp, Toda?

[fatboyz39]

yah.. i guess the lesson here for the OP is that if you can't afford to go the lengths all the way then you will be spending money and still won't be happy.. the only logical choice is to be like everyone else who just do I/H/E and be done with it or actually 'finish' something....

these are the options for complete:
- B16 = Built Head with all the correct components working together and at least the FD
- B18c7 + lsd 4.7fd gearbox and be done with it
- CRVTEC(b20vtec) or LSVTEC(b18b2vtec) with mild head work

If you can't afford any of them then stay with what you already have and be happy with it and save for your next great buy of a car.... if you want, PM me and you can drive my car... should be out of the workshop next week.

This is the curse of a HoonDuh... "Horsepower sells cars, Torque wins races"... HoonDuhs were never designed to be amazingly fast on the straight, but rather, more than adequate HP for trackwork in combination with sussy/chassis/brake setup. The first step in truly appreciating the ownership of a Honda is to understand the manufacturers purpose.... i understand it now after coming from faster cars and being.. in a sense, 'disappointed' with a worked B16a....

this is why i feel sorry for all the hoon civic drivers that always "vtec yo" and 'think' they have a fast car... they don't understand what fast is and what it takes to win a race in its many forms... you have to have a purpose for your build and set your goals and budget accordingly...

it's called project management, i hope it's something thats taught at school these days, it sure as hell hard to learn through consequences in a corporate environment :p




***EDIT***
But we know your not going to listen anyway lol... I had the same mentality and did it all anyway... some people only accept the answers the hard way

Well said. If you want to stick to a b16a then do it properly.

[fatboyz39]

1 question, who else in sydney does the b20 bottom end conversions. Gp, Toda?

Try bel garage.

[grumpy rooster]

There is no replacement for displacement.

Go with the 2.0lt bottom end.

$1300 you would be pushing any of the options people mention. Hidden costs always suck.


This man speaks the truth.

I always look at things in this order assuming headers and exhaust are already done:

- lightweight flywheel & uprated clutch
- final drive
- compression increase (by shaving the head which may involve notching the pistons)
- while the head is off getting shaved quick tidy up of the ports

This will give you a healthy increase in useable power and torque, but won't win any dyno comps.

If your up for a block change then go for the biggest capacity you can afford.

[blabla]

This man speaks the truth.

I always look at things in this order assuming headers and exhaust are already done:

- lightweight flywheel & uprated clutch
- final drive
- compression increase (by shaving the head which may involve notching the pistons)
- while the head is off getting shaved quick tidy up of the ports

This will give you a healthy increase in useable power and torque, but won't win any dyno comps.

If your up for a block change then go for the biggest capacity you can afford.

whats the cost for the;

- final drive
- compression increase (by shaving the head which may involve notching the pistons)
- while the head is off getting shaved quick tidy up of the ports.

[dsp26]

^^its cheaper to get a type r 4.7 lsd gearbox for maybe around $1600-$1800 forum price here + sell yours for maybe $600... pay about $300 for labour cost.

getting say the MFactory FD on its own for around $700 (forum price) plus installation (around $1000+ for removal/open/install/refit) and you still don't have the lsd...

[todaek9]

N/A build = alot of $$$
that is if you want to get the full package.

[grumpy rooster]

whats the cost for the;

- final drive
- compression increase (by shaving the head which may involve notching the pistons)
- while the head is off getting shaved quick tidy up of the ports.

I'll send you a PM with a few options.

[paps02]

anybody suggested h2b yet?

[blabla]

anybody suggested h2b yet?

whats is that h22 with a b16a box?

[paps02]

itr gbox etc with h22a motor

will haul @$$ even with stock motor.. but is quite expensive compared to cam upgrade. i considered it for a while until i found out how much it would cost. now im going with straight h22 swap...

[blabla]

and how much is the h22 swap costing u?

I got a quote for a straight b18c swap it was like $1800 fitted i think.

[free2d]

Any feedback for Toda and Buddy Club cams? I am choosing between Toda C and BC N+.

Thanks

[delsol9000rpms]

i have the toda spec c's in my b16a with aroun 10.8 compression... i have to say that they worked very well.. i made lots of top end power and a fat midrange.... i highly recommend these cams... they make more power then stock right from idle...

one thing though with the toda spec c's is that... because it has a huge primary cam before vtec... that cam will be more effiecient until say around 7000rpm... that is your vtec will cross over at around 7000rpm give or take depending on your setup... you will have more power still because the toda cams make lotspower before vtec...

with my b16a with I/h/e hondata s300 ecu tuned and around 10.8 compression... i made 98kw's at around 7000rpms before vtec even crossed over..

thats my feedback talking only from experience

[EG5]

Any feedback for Toda and Buddy Club cams? I am choosing between Toda C and BC N+.

Thanks

BC N+ Cams on a stock bottom end k24a3 , 3 inch exhaust , 80mm TB , JDMyard intake manifold , JDMyard header
Tuned with hondata kpro

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk99/egk24/DSC09342.jpg?t=1231728931

[delsol9000rpms]

hey yonas i just noticed that it looks like your vtec kicks in to early hence that little dip in torque and power... rasing the cross over point shooould smoothen it out..

nice curve..:thumbsup:

do you have a dyno sheet which shows before and after cams setup on the one sheet for comparison? i would really like to see

thanks

[EG5]

hey yonas i just noticed that it looks like your vtec kicks in to early hence that little dip in torque and power... rasing the cross over point shooould smoothen it out..

nice curve..:thumbsup:

do you have a dyno sheet which shows before and after cams setup on the one sheet for comparison? i would really like to see

thanks

??
Hmm I dont think so man , my tuner spent his time already on it .
You dont know how hard it is to tuned it till you actually become a real tuner.