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SPEEDCORE
06-11-2003, 01:43 PM
Soz if this is in the wrong place....

As the title says guys.... I want to know what numbers you guys are putting out with your B16A's.......

Please reply like I have below.... Cheers...

Car: '97 Vti-R Civic (g/f's car)
Engine: B16A2 (please specify which type of B16A.... ie 1 or 2)
Mods: K&N panel filter and cold air piping....... that is it!
HP@ wheels: 126.2 HP - 94.1 kw
Dyno Type: Dyno Dynamics (the type where the car is driven on.... help me out here, ie. non-chassis dyno?) :?

I know this is not a good way to judge different B16 powered cars (different dyno's, etc etc.) and only judging peak power as opposed to comparing the whole power curve an such, but just want to get a feel of what people are acheiving with their little 1600cc screamers..... as I believe the yanky dynos are full of shit!

Oh and I don't want this thread to become an engine bashing thread.... so please.... no arguing....

Peace out,
SPEEDCORE!

wynode
06-11-2003, 01:51 PM
You might want to specify WHERE you got it dynoed also.

SPEEDCORE
06-11-2003, 02:02 PM
DOH!! Thought I had covered all avenues... :P sorry man!

Redcliffe Dyno & Performance, just outside Brisbane.

one more chance
06-11-2003, 04:31 PM
good topic! But 94kw@wheels? :shock: damn thats alot! Dont doubt u, but u have any dyno sheets for this?

SPEEDCORE
06-11-2003, 04:45 PM
Hmmmm the yanks are getting more than this stock go figure :?

Yer I have a dyno sheet.... my mate is going to scan it for me within the week.... I'll need someone to host it for me then...

Oh yeah, the dyno was not on shootout mode either.. :?

Weq
06-11-2003, 04:48 PM
94kw
Thats about 10% less drivetrain loss then my Civic.. hmm..

BLKCRX
06-11-2003, 05:03 PM
Back when i was NA !! eheh they were the days !! ehheeh

b16a2 94 crx Fully stock engine.

2.5 cat back exhaust sytem
pod filter (in engine bay) yes i know CAI is better.. i was lazy ! ;)
hondata tuned

dyno dynamics 98.9kw at the wheels (on 17" wheels)
This was around 3 years ago...

Now the engine has well hmmm lots more power !! enough to make me go 11.60 @ 129mph and much faster soon !!

PS Yank dyno's are full of shit !! there HP is different to our HP ;) Simple !! you can't compair !!


Regards James

SPEEDCORE
06-11-2003, 05:14 PM
PS Yank dyno's are full of shit !! there HP is different to our HP ;) Simple !! you can't compair !!


Thanks for your post man........... yer just like I thought the yanks always are like having claims of 140 odd stock :roll:

So what is the difference in their HP..... and figures like our 1hp = .745 kw?

Civic Type R
06-11-2003, 06:15 PM
All dynos are different and we all should know that.
some are recorded from the wheels and some are done off the wheel lugs.

A friend of mine over here with an DC2 ITR with just a muffler got 118kw ATW a few months ago.

Using the same formula i anticipate on getting 98kw ATW for stock Civic VTiR.
USING THIS DYNO MACHINE :)

BLKCRX
06-11-2003, 06:23 PM
not that this post is about dynos...but
dynos are used for 2 things.. perfect air fuel tuning.. and 2nd ignition tuning oh and on vtec cars vtec point !! ehhe max power of power on the curve are just numbers representing sweet nuffin !!! once a car is tuned its tuned to the max... regardless of the dyno number....
sadly there’s no international standard for dynos thus why there's so many variances. Dynos are needed to tune a car yes because you can see before and after differences, but quoting the final figures mean’s sweet fark all !!
I could explain why but ehehe lol that’s a long essay and im goin 2 see matrix now with my gf so yeah eheh will have to wait !!! ehhe

Regards james

SPEEDCORE
06-11-2003, 06:40 PM
Using the same formula i anticipate on getting 98kw ATW for stock Civic VTiR.
USING THIS DYNO MACHINE :)

Let me know how you go............ not even air filer on your car? :?

ALLMTR
06-11-2003, 08:50 PM
93.7kw at Croydon (ran 13.8 with that power)

Microtech, 2 1/2 mandrel and pod B16a1

Setanta
07-11-2003, 06:39 AM
79.8KW with no mods and a stuffed catalytic convertor @ Croydon using a JDM B16A1.

My guess is that about 83-85 is what a stock B16A should put out. Most Yanks are full of shit when it comes to pulling dyno slips out.

As noted, I don't believe dyno results as they are never the same and the operators can fudge them.

AUSVTEC
07-11-2003, 07:33 AM
80kw atw not tunned for two months.(did straight after EXHAUST FITTING).
ENG: B16A1 Stock internals and cai and cat back exhaust.
Done at C&V...............

genesis
07-11-2003, 10:48 AM
Adrian, you forgot to mention that the dyno was performed in 3rd gear! I got very similar results with my car in 3rd.

Weq
07-11-2003, 11:28 AM
I would expect a b16a to produce around 80kw atw in 4th. Becuase if u compare a 95+kw atw readout to the thread on the sr20de vs b16a, there would be no competition. the sr20de produces around 70-75kw atw, and supposidly a race with one of these guys produced only a small win. Hence a 95kw reading is utter misinformation. Sorry, had to be said!

genesis
07-11-2003, 01:49 PM
Adrian, you forgot to mention that the dyno was performed in 3rd gear! I got very similar results with my car in 3rd.
speedcore = adrian

AUSVTEC
07-11-2003, 02:01 PM
do your dyno run in 4th and tell us the real result.........

Civic Type R
07-11-2003, 02:09 PM
do your dyno run in 4th and tell us the real result.........
I thought they were all done in 4th ..
i will have mine dynoed when i get my full exhaust fitted.

AUSVTEC
07-11-2003, 02:11 PM
Dyno runs should be done in fourth.
gearing is 1 to 1 in fourth.
If im wrong o well.

Weq
07-11-2003, 02:46 PM
Actually its more like 0.90xxx, but comparing to 3rd which is usually 1.2xx its a better estimate of power.

SPEEDCORE
07-11-2003, 02:54 PM
speedcore = adrian

Geeeee thanks.. :evil: :thumbsdown:

poid
07-11-2003, 03:04 PM
Thanks for your post man........... yer just like I thought the yanks always are like having claims of 140 odd stock :roll:

So what is the difference in their HP..... and figures like our 1hp = .745 kw?

1hp = 0.746kw wherever you go, its a standard unit of measurement. The difference is that yank dynos tend to be more optimistic then our dynos are.

dyno figures are sooooooooooo easy to fudge its not funny

ALLMTR
07-11-2003, 08:11 PM
79.8KW with no mods and a stuffed catalytic convertor @ Croydon using a JDM B16A1.

My guess is that about 83-85 is what a stock B16A should put out. Most Yanks are full of shit when it comes to pulling dyno slips out.

As noted, I don't believe dyno results as they are never the same and the operators can fudge them.

Yeah but I don't think your VTEC was working on that run. Or at least I couldnt hear it BUHAHAHHAHA

Setanta
07-11-2003, 09:53 PM
you are never going to let me live that down are you Chuck?

I like my quite so the cops don't notice... I guess it works :P

My run was in 4th and pulled a lot less than the other B16A modded Civics - but mine was the first on the dyno out of them.

Still, totally unmodified with a stuffed cat , 79.8 is an ok figure :)

DynoDave
25-12-2003, 08:51 PM
Well this is my 5 cents worth on dyno figures I have been dynoing for over 10 years and the best unmodified B16A made 78.3kw on my Dyno Dynamic,s dyno, the best bolt on only modified B16A made 95.5kw no where near what others are claiming this does not worry me as the dyno is only a TOOL for checking power outputs and it can not make power that is up to the tuner.Just a further figure on a B16A race engine that I have tuned made 127kw now this engine owe,s the customer over $20,000 and the same engine will be going on a Dynopac dyno soon so I will let you all know the outcome as these NZ built dyno,s are now becoming very popular in the States and we will be able to see the difference between the 2 dyno,s and be able to get a rough idea to compare to the yanks as the same engine setup over there makes 220hp on a Dynojet dyno.
Cheers Dyno Dave

KnfUzn
26-12-2003, 10:25 PM
b16a produces around 75-80 kws and a type r teg produces around 80-85.. if urse has 90+... ur cheerin

bizee_1
10-01-2004, 07:56 AM
Hi every1

Engine: JDM B16A0
Dyno Type: Dyno Dynamics (@CRD) in Shootout Mode
Mods: intake, headers, 2.5" exhaust
HP@ wheels: 132.6hp / 98.9kw in 4th gear

Dyno Type: Dynapack (@AutoTech Perf.)
Mods: intake, headers, 2.5" exhaust
HP@ wheels: 126.8hp / 94.6kw in 4th gear
Notes: Just had full exhaust put on 2 days earlier

Dyno Type: Dyno Dynamics (@CRD) in Shootout Mode
Mods: intake, OE headers, cat-back 2" exhaust
HP@ wheels: 124.8hp / 93.1kw in 4th gear

Civic Type R
12-01-2004, 04:21 PM
My B16A2 was 124HP @ wheels before full exhaust.
Now 134HP @ wheels.

Same dyno

BLKCRX
12-01-2004, 05:05 PM
I tuned a gen4 CRX last week in syd using Hondata s200 .. ..stock headers mod'ed air intake... and mod'ed exhaust system, resulted in 107kw at the wheels a very punchy and fast CRX.

Regards James

Civic Type R
12-01-2004, 05:58 PM
I tuned a gen4 CRX last week in syd using Hondata s200 .. ..stock headers mod'ed air intake... and mod'ed exhaust system, resulted in 107kw at the wheels a very punchy and fast CRX.

Regards James
what was the HP @ wheels before you tuned it ?

BLKCRX
12-01-2004, 08:12 PM
The car was run up before on the same dyno with 81kw at thw wheels ! HUGE difference there !!!

Regards James

bizee_1
12-01-2004, 09:06 PM
That's why i think that something else was done previously to my engine.
81kw --> 98kw. what is the average gain on i/h/e mods ? i just don't think it is totally 17kw.

Setanta
12-01-2004, 09:54 PM
I'd suggest it might be 8KW at the wheels tops - unless the old system was really bad. It also depends on how they ran it on the dyno the second time - I've seen dyno operators fudge the "post mod" runs to make their customers happy. That's not saying it happened to you, but it does happen :?

bizee_1
12-01-2004, 10:50 PM
I know. Sometimes i just choose not to think about it. :|

And knowing my luck....

Civic Type R
13-01-2004, 12:06 PM
holy shit !
thats a 21% gain there !!!

Please let me know if you can tune my car as ive just done I.H.E.

VTEChnique
14-01-2004, 04:50 PM
Adam - you got nothing TO tune !!

you need something like hondata, AEM, Apexi SFC, VAFC etc in order to alter the tuning of the car..

another thing here I think some people might be getting mixed up with HP and kW figures.. especially the Yanks !!!!!

incoming
27-02-2004, 12:12 PM
my GF DC2R turbo got dyno'd and it read 103kw ATW i asked the guy is that normal and he said they had a stock DC2R that did 74kw..
i guess his dyno machine is f*#ked

w_civic
27-02-2004, 12:49 PM
JDM B16A (EG6) tunned n dynoed at Technik Tunning (ART), running 99.5kw@wheels.

Mods: Stock internal, VAFC, Extractor, Intake, Exhaust (Straight Pipe)

not bad ei for a stock internal :)

Rowie
27-02-2004, 01:00 PM
my GF DC2R turbo got dyno'd and it read 103kw ATW i asked the guy is that normal and he said they had a stock DC2R that did 74kw..
i guess his dyno machine is f*#ked

Dont get us started on the dyno debate again :D

Civic Type R
27-02-2004, 03:01 PM
Adam - you got nothing TO tune !!

you need something like hondata, AEM, Apexi SFC, VAFC etc in order to alter the tuning of the car..
what do u mean ive got nothing to tune ???
like WTF !

McChook
27-02-2004, 03:22 PM
Tune a standard car, you'll still get good results, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Civic Type R
27-02-2004, 03:31 PM
I refer to my Technical writeup on my full exhaust mod done last year. With Intake, custom 4-1 racing headers and replica mugen twin loop muffler. I believe i will benefit very well with a Hondata S200 tuning :D

last month i got 152.6 HP @ wheels with those mods.
Motorvation 2004 Dyno shootout.

VTEChnique
27-02-2004, 04:12 PM
what do u mean ive got nothing to tune ???
like WTF !

BWAHAHAARR.. you got no tune-ability.. you have NO variables with the standard ECU.. you cant tune shit without programmable Electronnic Management System... derrr

however IF you had VAFC or Greddy eManage.. up to Power FC, AEM, hondata, Motec etc, you have FULL tunability !!

Civic Type R
27-02-2004, 05:09 PM
derrr.
we all know i am running the stock ecu !

thats why i clearly stated i need something like the Hondata S200 to tune my mods !!!!

just read my posts a little more carefuly instead of rushing in with ur criticism.

SIKCVC
05-05-2005, 02:13 PM
Sorry to dig up an old thread, but at what RPM did you guys make your power? More interested in the lesser modded civics. trying to see where they ACTUALLY get their max power.

Nick

DynoDave
05-05-2005, 02:41 PM
Sorry to dig up an old thread, but at what RPM did you guys make your power? More interested in the lesser modded civics. trying to see where they ACTUALLY get their max power.

Nick
Its good that this thread is back as there is another thread just started about cams in a B16A.When I go back to work I will dig out some dyno sheets for you as I have dynoed alot of B16A's.
Regards Dyno Dave

BlitZ
05-05-2005, 04:57 PM
Tune a standard car, you'll still get good results, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
you think so? i would love to see that.
I believe u cant improve much from hondas ECU if your stock.
thats unless your tuning for a perky power band..

honda has it right on in the tuning department...

if you lucky .. your 1k for return on investment would get u 2kw atw..

check out hondata USA website.. they tuned a std b16a

DynoDave
05-05-2005, 05:07 PM
you think so? i would love to see that.
I believe u cant improve much from hondas ECU if your stock.
thats unless your tuning for a perky power band..

honda has it right on in the tuning department...

if you lucky .. your 1k for return on investment would get u 2kw atw..

check out hondata USA website.. they tuned a std b16a
Would you like to put money on it?????????.
Regards Dyno Dave

panda[cRx]
05-05-2005, 05:12 PM
I tuned a gen4 CRX last week in syd using Hondata s200 .. ..stock headers mod'ed air intake... and mod'ed exhaust system, resulted in 107kw at the wheels a very punchy and fast CRX.

Regards James

wow gen4!!! :p

ProECU
05-05-2005, 05:28 PM
must be a new model ! anyone got pics?

SPEEDCORE
06-05-2005, 03:28 PM
Would you like to put money on it?????????.
Regards Dyno Dave

:D

G AE82
09-05-2005, 03:44 PM
Hey guys. I know this thread is old, but just joined the forum and wanted to post something. My 84 civic (previously ALLMTR) has gone back to a stock b16a with microtech and was tuned by GRP AUTOMOTIVE to the tune of 135 whp or 100kw atw.

SPEEDCORE
10-05-2005, 01:42 PM
Hey guys. I know this thread is old, but just joined the forum and wanted to post something. My 84 civic (previously ALLMTR) has gone back to a stock b16a with microtech and was tuned by GRP AUTOMOTIVE to the tune of 135 whp or 100kw atw.

Stock Exhaust and intake?

SIKCVC
10-05-2005, 01:57 PM
what rpm are these relativly stock cars getting their power? 8000? 7900?

MrPlow
10-05-2005, 02:17 PM
MRPLOW EK4
Mods @ the time = I/H/E
C&V Performance
100.3kW atw

SIKCVC
10-05-2005, 02:26 PM
at what RPM???

G AE82
10-05-2005, 02:27 PM
Has K n N pod filter on the intake and 2.5 inch mandrel exhaust from stock manifold. Peak power was made at around 8000 rpm

JDM.Power
13-05-2005, 10:54 AM
some nice numbers guys!

genesis
13-05-2005, 12:46 PM
1997 Civic VTiR
Custom intake with dc2 airbox
JDM ITR 4-1, 2.5" exhaust with spoon muffler
Lightened flywheel, heavy duty clutch.
104.1kwatw

spoondc2
13-05-2005, 06:01 PM
1997 Civic VTiR
Custom intake with dc2 airbox
JDM ITR 4-1, 2.5" exhaust with spoon muffler
Lightened flywheel, heavy duty clutch.
104.1kwatw

Can tell by your mods, your car is fast

ECU-MAN
13-05-2005, 08:42 PM
Taken from SA Dyno day @ Graham west

car is pretty much stock

97 CRX jdm ecu with jdm rom
Best run 95.0kw @ 7769rpm
302nm@120km/h

97 CRX B16A2 audm ecu, and pod filter
Best run 95.3.kw @ 7769rpm
302nm@120km/h

97 CRX B16A2 audm ecu, stock
Best run 93.3.kw @ 7769rpm
302nm@120km/h

z3lda
13-05-2005, 10:46 PM
is it me or does your ccar have alot more torque then a standard b16a ecu-man??

**Ghost**
13-05-2005, 10:48 PM
can i just ask, are dynos different

1. Individually?
2. By brand?

the only dyno i went to DC5Rs were only making around 100KW stock... and my car making just under 90kw

z3lda
13-05-2005, 10:58 PM
is it me or you never go out and always whoring ozhonda ghost.. ??? LOL

**Ghost**
13-05-2005, 11:46 PM
lol sharp... i'm doing exam study so i'm stiting by my coputer... if i didnt have ozhonda i'd be looking up porn

raff
14-05-2005, 12:26 AM
hahaha
u can do all 3 dude!!

ProECU
16-05-2005, 06:14 PM
is it me or does your ccar have alot more torque then a standard b16a ecu-man??

runs were made in 3rd gear. Torque figures are overstated.

dew36
20-05-2005, 03:49 AM
Still very new here... anyways, the dyno of my car:

Dynoed in Singapore

Model: 1997 Honda Civic EK4 Sedan Stock (It's a SiR, equivalent to a Si in Japan)
Engine: B16A5
Power: 118hp at the wheels

[[d a n n y]]
25-05-2005, 01:28 AM
my B16a JDM SIR EG6 engine
in EG breeze made 93.6KW atw i think it was
at redline motorsport
with 2.14 exhast highflow cat spoon pod and CAI

ProECU
25-05-2005, 08:23 AM
Still very new here... anyways, the dyno of my car:

Dynoed in Singapore

Model: 1997 Honda Civic EK4 Sedan Stock (It's a SiR, equivalent to a Si in Japan)
Engine: B16A5
Power: 118hp at the wheels

just to clarrify, thats 88.5kW @ wheels equivalent

ProECU
25-05-2005, 11:10 PM
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20777&page=1&pp=12

In reference to B16A dyno tunes, the above beast made peak 109kw@7800rpm.
MASSIVE Torque gains from 2.5k all the way to 5.5krpm.

Hopefully the owner of that machine will post the graphs soon for all you to drool over.

That car felt amazing to drive afterwards. Completely different car.

TheKillerAnt
30-05-2005, 03:04 PM
Whats the difference between a b16a1 and 2???
im new 2 this so anybody's help would be appreciated!
what car is the b16a1 and 2 found in and do they fit into 85 civics????
im keen on the conversion if anyone knows whether they fit or not!!
thanks

keric_02
30-05-2005, 04:48 PM
yeah what are the major differences between the a1 and a2....? i think the newer engine has like 2nm of torque extra... other than that im not sure

vinhy
30-05-2005, 05:29 PM
Whats the difference between a b16a1 and 2???
im new 2 this so anybody's help would be appreciated!
what car is the b16a1 and 2 found in
thanks
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14136

here dis will help to explain the difference

TheKillerAnt
30-05-2005, 08:36 PM
Thanks guys for your prompt replys to my query!
I think i've got my head around it now :D

SIKCVC
30-05-2005, 11:31 PM
My civic made power 8100.... hhhmmmm odd.

spoonsir2
31-05-2005, 10:23 AM
DOHC VTEC Power!~

SIKCVC
31-05-2005, 03:36 PM
i'd actually say its more to do with the pissy little no torque producing stroke. lol... and VTEC helps it get that high.

SPEEDCORE
31-05-2005, 03:44 PM
Less talk more numbers!

**Ghost**
31-05-2005, 03:45 PM
89.95 kw Atw... just intake

Tu88y
31-05-2005, 09:00 PM
90.3 kw atw... Stock as a rock

**Ghost**
31-05-2005, 09:07 PM
just wanted to ask... when ppl say dynos differ...fair enoguh i realise they differe between dynos that take measurements off the wheel and hub... but for the same TYPE...would there be discrepencies\./

SPEEDCORE
01-06-2005, 08:48 AM
Yes...... there still is discrepencies even for same brand and model of dyno.

There are alot of things that will cause this from obvious things like air temp and altitude to the actual software being run.

I'm sure others will be able to enlighten you further and in greater detail to what I have provided.

Illegal
17-06-2005, 04:14 PM
B16a2......is the lower rating, the higher rating is after a rebuild and a bigger block, not really a b16a2 after that now.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/illegalb16/dyno1.bmp

ProECU
17-06-2005, 04:26 PM
Thats about 137.7kW for reference

Illegal
18-06-2005, 01:57 AM
Thats about 137.7kW for reference

Thanks, I dont even know what kw stands for or how to do the equasion

sivic
18-06-2005, 04:54 AM
kw = kilowatts. open up a physics book for a definition:D

Illegal
18-06-2005, 11:35 AM
kw = kilowatts. open up a physics book for a definition:D

Yeah thanks......

SPEEDCORE
20-06-2005, 09:34 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/illegalb16/dyno1.bmp

So what mods on the B16 for the 160 you hit?

Illegal
20-06-2005, 12:53 PM
For the 160whp I had honda itr 96 cams, cai, 4-1 si header, cat back exaust, engine mounts, hondata s100, intake manifold....I think that was about it. Obviously I had more done, but nothing that would wield whp.

This is what I have now....

I need to do this at least once....

Password Jdm Whale penis carbon fibre intake
str 68mm throttle body
skunk 2 intake manifold
aem fuel pressure regulator
b and m fuel guage
440 rc injectors
b16a2 '00si head
titanium valve springs/retainers
skunk 2 stage 2 cams
aem cam gears
b18 '98 gsr block bored over to a 1.85lt 82mm.
stock gsr crank and rods
'00 si pr3 pistons
11.43 compression
Hondata s100 obd1 ecu - p28
Megan racing stainless 4-1 type-r header 2.5 inch collector
test pipe
greddy evo full back exaust
b16a2 '00 si tranny
competition clutch stage 2
clutchmaster lightened flywheel
skunk 2 short shifter and weighted shift knob
energy suspension trans-mount bushings (shifter poly bushings)
inline pro solid steel and poly engine mounts
gsr radiator
brembo slotted rotors
hawk hps break pads
stainless steel break lines
ground control coilovers
tokico blues struts in the front
Tokico illuminas (whites) five way adjustables in the rear
New 5 way adjustable upper control arms in the front
front upper typ-r frame bar
rear upper strut bar
rear lower tie bar

Tuned to 185 whp and 135 wheel torque, best 1/4 miletime at 14.2 on street tires. I am about to redo the head, buy some slicks and retune my vtec, intake cam gear setting, valve gap and fuel set up.

I think thats everything so far, I'll edit if i forgot something mechanical.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/illegalb16/IM000105.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/illegalb16/IM000107.jpg

EGB16A
26-06-2005, 10:16 AM
damn, thats impressive!

Illegal
27-06-2005, 10:17 AM
So what mods on the B16 for the 160 you hit?

The 160 was without the block, throttle body and with type-r cams instead of the skunk 2 stage 2 cams. (so also no valve springs/retainers) and with stock injectors also.

ProECU
27-06-2005, 11:01 AM
From the list you provided above, the only power performance enhancing items are:

Aem type-r cai
skunk 2 intake manifold
b16a2 '00si head - STOCK ITEM!
ITR Cams
AEM cam gears
Hondata s100 obd1 ecu - p28
Megan racing stainless 4-1 type-r header 2.5 inch collector
test pipe
greddy evo full back exaust

So you're claiming you hit 160whp with these items on a stock B16 bottom end? ......

I dont believe this at all !

Illegal
27-06-2005, 12:18 PM
ok, this is the low down, AGAIN, for the 160 whp and 109 tourque,

Aem type-r cai
skunk 2 intake manifold
type-r cams
unused cam gears (aem)
stock b16a2 head and block
fpr aem
4-1 dc sport ceramic b16 header (not the megan type-r with the 2.5 collector)
high flow cat
greddy evo cat back
engine mounts from inline pro
hondata s100 p28 obd1 ecu.
cluthch and fly that doesnt matter for a dyno pull and shifter/bushings that dont matter.

I did the block upgrade to the 1.85 litre 82mm bore and the throttle body, and injectors and the new bigger header and a test pipe, with a retune and picked up 25whp and 25 tourque. Whats not to believe. i am replacing the head here soon because of smoke issues, and have to retune because it's a bit rich, so i will have another dyno sheet in a month or so I hope.

I dont think i forgot anything. Believe it or not, no difference to me. I did a best at the 1/4 on street tires at a 14.2, and I will hit a 13 with the car fixed and some slicks. Body work is next priority after the head, the breaks and suspention have just been redone, and I am about to add in some lower sway bars, but thats all i can think i have done.

The tuneing was done at www.inlinepro.com please go to the gallery and check out the team.

and the engine builders are on www.fastestfwdstreetcars.com

bennjamin
27-06-2005, 01:07 PM
So you're claiming you hit 160whp with these items on a stock B16 bottom end? ......

I dont believe this at all !


Isnt it from a US dyno - which tend to give inflated readings compared to our OZ dynos ?

( IMO judged from common readings shown on Hondatech , d-series.org etc in comparison to local readouts )


STILL....nice numbers ! show us a dyno printout !

ProECU
27-06-2005, 01:48 PM
Can you please detail what the block upgrade to 1.85L, 82mm is all about?

from my calculations, an 84mm bore on a stock B16 bore/crank combination will only yield 1.7L. (assuming you're still using the stock crank)
82mm is still in the 1.6L range (not 1.8L)

If the crank has changed, well then technically this isnt a B16 anymore.

**Ghost**
27-06-2005, 05:16 PM
Civic VTIR

I/h/e + hi flow r33 skyline cat + Vafc = 100.7 kw

Civic Type R
27-06-2005, 06:07 PM
I think we all should remember that in America they use different dyno machines to us over here. (i.s. as also mentioned by bennjamin)

albii
27-06-2005, 06:56 PM
who cares what power a car puts to the wheels..its not about that..if a car makes 120kw at the wheels in 4th at 6000rpm whats the use of that...? but the owner will go around saying that he made 120kw but that dont mean shit...i have seen skylines with 400hp only do mid to high 13s why because big hp dont mean quick times..then i have seen gsr lancers with 200hp pull mid to low 13s...why because it has better low to mid range power than a big turbo big hp skyline.

strepto
27-06-2005, 06:57 PM
164 WHP with P73 ported head and CTR pistons. This was on a Dynojet in Norway @ sea level.

albii
27-06-2005, 08:10 PM
instead of talking fairytale power figures lets talk how quick your cars ran down the quarter mile....and gtec timers are full of crap.

kingboost
27-06-2005, 08:41 PM
instead of talking fairytale power figures lets talk how quick your cars ran down the quarter mile....and gtec timers are full of crap.
what?who is talking fairytales?? i'd power down a quarter mile to hear one, play school is full of crap. :thumbsup:

ProECU
27-06-2005, 09:44 PM
I still would like to know more about this 1.85L 82mm engine

I assume you're using a B18C Crank @82mm = 1.84L
or a B18A/B Crank @82mm = 1.88L

Bowzer
27-06-2005, 10:15 PM
The new setup mentions he used a GSR Block B18 stock GSR rods and crank (orginal bore 81mm) overbored to 82mm that means you would of had to used oversized pistons i didn't know if they make factory PR3 pistons with a 82mm size???
Specs
B18C GSR
Bore: 82mm (stock is 81mm)
Stroke: 87.20mm

B16A (PR3) Head
Combustion Chamber Volume: 42.70cc

PR3 Pistons give you 6.01cc piston dome displacement...

Head gasket I lets assume stock 3 layer OEM ~ 0.7366mm (0.029in)

Using this calculator
http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.php

Theoretically you get a 11.6 CR and displacement being 1842cc

I think your probably using .25 oversized pistons... I dont think you can get 82mm factory honda pistons... However i do know Wiseco K566M82 is a 82mm bore piston but thats aftermarket

ProECU
27-06-2005, 10:53 PM
Quote:
"The 160 was without the block, throttle body and with type-r cams instead of the skunk 2 stage 2 cams"

I'm confused,
So you made 160HP (120kW) with a stock B16 + ITR cams?

Illegal
27-06-2005, 10:53 PM
Isnt it from a US dyno - which tend to give inflated readings compared to our OZ dynos ?

( IMO judged from common readings shown on Hondatech , d-series.org etc in comparison to local readouts )


STILL....nice numbers ! show us a dyno printout !


Mustang dyno's are overinflated, if you go to the www.inlinepro.com , they show what kind they have, and it auto adjusts for temp and what not. If the adjust was off it would have read an inaccurate Higher set of numbers, but it is never off.

Illegal
27-06-2005, 10:55 PM
Can you please detail what the block upgrade to 1.85L, 82mm is all about?

from my calculations, an 84mm bore on a stock B16 bore/crank combination will only yield 1.7L. (assuming you're still using the stock crank)
82mm is still in the 1.6L range (not 1.8L)

If the crank has changed, well then technically this isnt a B16 anymore.

I said in the first list that it is a 98 gsr block bored over to an 82mm then honed. I used 82 mm b16a2 pistons to get a compression of 11.43, the 1.8 and a half litre was a guess of size after the over bore. All this is listed in the previous post with the picks, including that i am now useing a stock gsr crank and rods.

Illegal
27-06-2005, 10:59 PM
Quote:
"The 160 was without the block, throttle body and with type-r cams instead of the skunk 2 stage 2 cams"

I'm confused,
So you made 160HP (120kW) with a stock B16 + ITR cams?

I answerd this question above 1 page ago last night, I even redid the list. Ask a question once...I will answer it, then ask another, Different question. I could always just answer with quotes I suppose. :wave:

Illegal
27-06-2005, 11:02 PM
The new setup mentions he used a GSR Block B18 stock GSR rods and crank (orginal bore 81mm) overbored to 82mm that means you would of had to used oversized pistons i didn't know if they make factory PR3 pistons with a 82mm size???
Specs
B18C GSR
Bore: 82mm (stock is 81mm)
Stroke: 87.20mm

B16A (PR3) Head
Combustion Chamber Volume: 42.70cc

PR3 Pistons give you 6.01cc piston dome displacement...

Head gasket I lets assume stock 3 layer OEM ~ 0.7366mm (0.029in)

Using this calculator
http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.php

Theoretically you get a 11.6 CR and displacement being 1842cc

I think your probably using .25 oversized pistons... I dont think you can get 82mm factory honda pistons... However i do know Wiseco K566M82 is a 82mm bore piston but thats aftermarket


Wow, I came up with 11.43 using that calculator a month ago....11.6? I'll do it again. I did use a stock head gasket, and aftermarket stock copy pr3 pistons. They may have been Wiseco's. Stock they make 81, 81.5, and 82mm I was told. (at least in the ctr pistons, which If I have to do any block work again I will be upgrading too.

What piston to deck height did you use. With the b16 I got the 11.64, and with the b18 I got 11.32
I have the b16a2 head so i guess it is 11.64 compression! (btw I've have this site on my favorites for ever, It's very handy)

Illegal
27-06-2005, 11:04 PM
164 WHP with P73 ported head and CTR pistons. This was on a Dynojet in Norway @ sea level.

Good numbers. That is on the same dyno and sea level as me, and those #'s sound right on. Got a sheet or a 1/4 mile time?

Illegal
27-06-2005, 11:05 PM
who cares what power a car puts to the wheels..its not about that..if a car makes 120kw at the wheels in 4th at 6000rpm whats the use of that...? but the owner will go around saying that he made 120kw but that dont mean shit...i have seen skylines with 400hp only do mid to high 13s why because big hp dont mean quick times..then i have seen gsr lancers with 200hp pull mid to low 13s...why because it has better low to mid range power than a big turbo big hp skyline.


Good point, thats why I posted my times right off the bat.

ProECU
27-06-2005, 11:15 PM
I answerd this question above 1 page ago last night, I even redid the list. Ask a question once...I will answer it, then ask another, Different question. I could always just answer with quotes I suppose. :wave:

Perhaps you did, Must be the New Zealand accent. :wave:
Let me answer it for you... I'm still not down with these claims,

I guess a 10kw oversated US dyno is a possibility

Quote:
ok, this is the low down, AGAIN, for the 160 whp and 109 tourque,

Aem type-r cai
skunk 2 intake manifold
type-r cams
unused cam gears (aem)
stock b16a2 head and block

Illegal
27-06-2005, 11:39 PM
Perhaps you did, Must be the New Zealand accent. :wave:
Let me answer it for you... I'm still not down with these claims,

I guess a 10kw oversated US dyno is a possibility

Quote:
ok, this is the low down, AGAIN, for the 160 whp and 109 tourque,

Aem type-r cai
skunk 2 intake manifold
type-r cams
unused cam gears (aem)
stock b16a2 head and block


The dyno is right, the sheet and tuning and car is not a "CLAIM", I have nothing to prove but to add constructively to this thread. I see by the name you tune....you should know better. What dyno do you use? You should understand how this works. What times should I be running then? My friend has the exact same whp #'s and tourqe and runs a 13.02 in a 92 hatch that is 200lbs lighter with slicks. He is beating me by over a second at the track on weight and slicks alone! I'll get him on the highway though.

Looks like I'm # 12 on the site for right now as well.

ProECU
27-06-2005, 11:43 PM
The fact I dyno many B16's is why I questioned your results.

I have not seen any B16's out here that make 160HP is stock trim

Illegal
27-06-2005, 11:51 PM
The cams and hondata did a lot for me, I will try top find a dyno of before those were installed.

I have seen as much of a difference as 10whp on stock engines with no mods period.

Illegal
28-06-2005, 12:00 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/illegalb16/b16typercams.bmp

Sorry it's so small, have to save it a zoom in. This is my only 3 dyno's before the block swap. The first is pretty basic, just with a few bolt on and i think a vafc. I cant remember what was done for the second one, I think the first and second were just a baseline run and an after tuning run. the third is the one with the hondata and type-r cams i believe. The previous post that had the new dyno was a comparisson of the best (last dyno) with the completed one up to date. So this is all of the sheets i own. As you can see i started from megal beginings as well. Maybe your conversion calculator is wrong?

The air fuel is also on this one.

Tu88y
28-06-2005, 10:47 AM
I just did a dyno run last night

Previous run Stock 90kw

Last night run Pod + cannon 93.8kw

Civic Type R
28-06-2005, 03:29 PM
10 pages of useless whinging.

Honestly !

Look, the guy from USA is posting the figures he got and im sure he didnt expect the negative 'please explain' from a few hot-under-the-collar members here. Now im not having a go at anyone but whats the value in argueing over someones figures when they are being honest with dyno readings just to please some silly request. ProECU, mate i know you know your stuff but i am struggling to see the point of argueing over all of this. I can add a few colourful dyno reading ive had over the years but theres no need. (WA members know what i mean)

As the title says. "Your B16A Dyno results"
Let the OH members post what they got and if you have a querie then ask it, instead of replying in a spite of disbelief. Once again we are acting like school kids argueing over dyno machines.
Time to move on i think..

ProECU
28-06-2005, 03:48 PM
Relax mate, Bad day at the office?
I just couldnt work out if that result was a B16 or B18.

seems you're only adding to the bitching once it was over. Good work

Civic Type R
28-06-2005, 03:54 PM
LOL.

No im fine mate and i apologise if you think ive added to the arguement. But the obvious point is that we're having another useless arguement comparing different dyno machines.

For the record:

B16A2 with full I.H.E got 125HP@wheels - 14.8 1/4 mile
B18cR with full I.H.E got 149.5HP@wheels - 14.2 1/4 mile
same car, same machine

Now those figures are pretty much true to form, but many of us over here remember i got a crazy reading of 152.6HP@wheels with my stock B16A2 a few years ago. It didnt make any sense but thats what the dyno printed ;)

barefootbonzai
28-06-2005, 04:06 PM
B16A2 - T3/4 Turbo Charged (6.5psi) - Hondata Tunned
APC in Brisbane
125.5kw@wheels

ProECU
28-06-2005, 04:11 PM
I dont think its useless.
It's good to flush out these arguments and educate everyone involved (yes including myself).

I dont tend to look too much at peak power figures, but more the manner in which they are obtained. This is key to explaining variances & identifying combinations that work.

This is why I tend to question so much.
Forgive those who have a thirst for knowledge & question the given, dont shoot them!

Civic Type R
28-06-2005, 04:25 PM
Yes :)

As I said I wasnt having a go at you and I myself like to see what mods get power etc. Just from what i was reading, the poor dude living in USA was trying his best to provide as much info as he could and he was still being put up to scrutiny.

Anyway, I agree with you regarding this "I dont tend to look too much at peak power figures, but more the manner in which they are obtained. This is key to explaining variances & identifying combinations that work." message.

Have a look at the stock ECU vs JDM ITR ecu and Mugen ECU comparison dyno chart i posted some 4 weeks ago, I forgot the thread. All 3 ECU's got the same top end power but their power curves were vastly different.

ProECU
28-06-2005, 06:25 PM
Since we're getting into the Boost power figures....

stock B16, T3 turbo .48AR, MP manifold, stock exhaust 4.5psi, ProECU Tuned = 151kW (200WHP)
stock B16, GT28, AVO Log Manifold, Custom exhaust, 6.5psi , ProECU Tuned = 136kW (181HP)

... and some more NA tunes
stock B16 + ITR Cams, NA, ProECU Tuned, 105kW (140HP)
stock B16 , ProECU Tuned = 109kW (145HP)

Bowzer
28-06-2005, 10:21 PM
Wow, I came up with 11.43 using that calculator a month ago....11.6? I'll do it again. I did use a stock head gasket, and aftermarket stock copy pr3 pistons. They may have been Wiseco's. Stock they make 81, 81.5, and 82mm I was told. (at least in the ctr pistons, which If I have to do any block work again I will be upgrading too.

What piston to deck height did you use. With the b16 I got the 11.64, and with the b18 I got 11.32
I have the b16a2 head so i guess it is 11.64 compression! (btw I've have this site on my favorites for ever, It's very handy)

I got 11.6 by changing the bore size from 81mm to 82mm otherwise you be calculating the CR for a 81mm bore... (B18C1/C5 Block in the options)
As for a 82mm oversize I have not yet come across a OEM Honda one in that size

Illegal
29-06-2005, 12:49 AM
... and some more NA tunes
stock B16 + ITR Cams, NA, ProECU Tuned, 105kW (140HP)
stock B16 , ProECU Tuned = 109kW (145HP)

So the tune with the itr cams is lower overall than just stock? Weird. I guess one motor can just start out stronger than another from the factory, at least a bit. Maybe one was broken in or taken care of better, or maybe the timing is different on one, or compression, or is the tuning better on one than the other?

SPEEDCORE
29-06-2005, 08:49 AM
... and some more NA tunes
stock B16 + ITR Cams, NA, ProECU Tuned, 105kW (140HP)
stock B16 , ProECU Tuned = 109kW (145HP)

Any chance of charts? I'm interested at seeing the curves in these. :)

Also glad you ladies have got over your rags so quickly. ;)

ProECU
29-06-2005, 09:16 AM
So the tune with the itr cams is lower overall than just stock? Weird.

Why does this suprise you?
Take a look at relative piston speeds (engine geometry) between B16 & B18C versus cam lift/duration of these motors and you'll understand why.

As for graphs, i'll post some up when I get a chance

Illegal
29-06-2005, 10:14 PM
ANYONE I know with a cam upgrade on a b16, if they are not overcamming the engine, actually gained horsepower. A set of itr cams is an upgrade, but bassed on your results it is a waste of money. I GAINED hp when I did the itr cams, so thats why I'm confused. My dyno sheets directly show the oposite.

I understand that the cam duration is different, thats the point of why the itr cams are an upgrade, not something that should slow the motor down. It looks like a dyno of a type-r putting stock b16 cams in and taking out the good ones! Just my opinion. In 7 years I've never seen or heard of that. I also called www.inlinepro.com and they were as confused as me over the results. EVERY car they have dynoed has shown an improvement with an uopgraded cam, unless the customer installed a cam that was to large for the compression and displacement to actually use that cam.

ProECU
29-06-2005, 11:02 PM
Mate you're missing the point.

R cams did make more power over stock. 96kw->105kw
but tuned stock cams made MORE power.

I dont care what inline pro say, and you need to define WHY R cams are an upgrade in a B16. Different doesn not equal Upgrade. That is not a logical statement.

Yes R cams in a B16 IS a waste of money

Illegal
30-06-2005, 12:18 AM
With no fuel and not the right timming the r cam would be a waste. Also what was your air/fuel ratio's. What was the total ignition timing on the one with the r cam. I AM NOT trying to be a dick, or undermine you in any way, or give you a hard time, or start a fight, I'm just trying to understand why everything your saying goes against everything I've learned by some of the top engine builders andfastest fwd street cars in the country.

*edit* I posted this up on a few other forums, and everyone has been getting a big laugh so far. (whole subject/thread). Everyone asked me to tell you in the nicest possible way to stop tuning please.

Illegal
18-07-2005, 03:50 PM
Cam specs

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/illegalb16/camspecs.gif

ProECU
18-07-2005, 05:08 PM
yeah ok whatever.

Illegal
18-07-2005, 09:02 PM
yeah ok whatever.


I got my OLD r cams for $150, and the S2S2 for $300!

Illegal
27-07-2005, 12:52 AM
Quick question....If I dynoed at 185whp and 135tq and then retuned later, but there was a 30 degree difference in temp-to the warmer-and 40% more humidity, what would I lose #'s wise on the dyno from that change alone?

bizee_1
30-07-2005, 07:30 AM
http://www.hondatech.com.au/hondata/kpro/3-web.jpg

Peak power was at around 7700rpm.
Mods :
K&N pod
OBX SS 4-2-1 (top stuff :rolleyes: )
Hi-Tech 2.5" SS exhaust
ED6 w/ JDM B16A Hondata S200
(Redline 88.7kW atw)

natecspecr
27-10-2006, 01:32 PM
i got mine B16A2 SiRII with 150+ HP@wheel with torque 14.0 kgm .
Honda civic 1994 EG9
Stock B16A2 with LSD tranny
ECU P30 chipped FEEL`S chip + Greddy Emanage (blue).
SPOON CAI
Custom made extractor 4-2-1
2.25" test piping
straight 2" high flow muffler
15" Rota lighten Wheel

daniel b16a
02-11-2006, 06:09 AM
gota scan dyno result but got 122hp@wheel or 92kw i think

mugen 4-1 headers
simota whales penis intake
stock cat and 2.25 piping with middle bullet and high flow muffler
exedy clutch

what should me next mod be? and wud it make lotsa diff if i remove the stock cat? anyone selling test pipe?

xtercii
02-11-2006, 08:36 AM
power wise probably won't be a big difference, but if you get busted it will most likely make a big difference to ur wallet size. We are talking about 10k fine here.

SiR Feoc
10-11-2006, 03:20 PM
EF8 SiR (stock) B16a1
82kw atw @ 162KPH, 222.2nm @55KPH
Granham West Workshops (SA)
Power runs done in 4th gear

EG5
10-11-2006, 03:38 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/YonasLiu/1e095791.jpg
stock bottom end b16 with CTR cams, valve springs , Type R im + tb , BC header , s100

this is equal to 159.8 hp@wheel (159.8hp@wheel)

eg92b16a
11-11-2006, 07:06 PM
EG4 hatch B16A2, intake + exhaust + S100
104Kw ATW @8000rpm in 4th gear
APC 29-07-06

daniel b16a
12-11-2006, 02:21 AM
man juz with s100 u got 104kw and i only have 92kw withoug ecu...wud ecu make much diff without modding internals?

also eg5 stock bottom end meaning u changed pistons or stock ones?

Mrrevolution
12-11-2006, 09:14 AM
119.2 kw atw for a b16a how much money you spent on that block ? Is it easy to use the same parts and make other b16a producing 119 kw or close to that ? What valve springs were they ? What is type r im + tb ?

xtercii
12-11-2006, 09:37 AM
intake manifold & throttle body.

Mrrevolution
12-11-2006, 09:55 AM
lol thanks
thats the most ive heard of a naturally aspirated b16a producing 119 kw atw so very keen on info

eg92b16a
12-11-2006, 05:23 PM
man juz with s100 u got 104kw and i only have 92kw withoug ecu...wud ecu make much diff without modding internals?

also eg5 stock bottom end meaning u changed pistons or stock ones?

Engine totally stock internally and it's done 195K as well. Yes the S100 did make a huge difference to responsiveness and top end power.

EG5
13-11-2006, 11:08 AM
man juz with s100 u got 104kw and i only have 92kw withoug ecu...wud ecu make much diff without modding internals?

also eg5 stock bottom end meaning u changed pistons or stock ones?

stock bottom end means stock piston , stock rods .
untouch block

Mrrevolution
13-11-2006, 11:19 AM
Anyone seen the latest fast fours or auto salon mag with the b16a civic turbo with 365 kw atw street legal, with the stock looking exterior. 11.4 sec quarter mile time and 10750 rpm redline.
Complete stunner of a car!!!

ginganggooly
13-11-2006, 12:20 PM
stock bottom end b16 with CTR cams, valve springs , Type R im + tb , BC header , s100

this is equal to 159.8 hp@wheel
holy dooly, thats huge for the mods! :eek:


what 1/4 did you run??

j3z3z
13-11-2006, 02:10 PM
EF8 SiR (stock) B16a1
82kw atw @ 162KPH, 222.2nm @55KPH
Granham West Workshops (SA)
Power runs done in 4th gear

seems a little low :confused:

my ef8 near stock.
exhaust
intake/highflow filter.
two different runs on 2 different dynos one at 101kw atw the other at 104kw atw

SiR Feoc
13-11-2006, 04:26 PM
seems a little low :confused:

my ef8 near stock.
exhaust
intake/highflow filter.
two different runs on 2 different dynos one at 101kw atw the other at 104kw atw

was yours a 4th gear run??
speaking to others with SiRs and they rekon 80-85kw atw is around the normal mark for a stock b16a :confused:

Exhaust and CAI getting done soon i'l post up results when done.

phantom_civic
13-11-2006, 06:57 PM
Anyone seen the latest fast fours or auto salon mag with the b16a civic turbo with 365 kw atw street legal, with the stock looking exterior. 11.4 sec quarter mile time and 10750 rpm redline.
Complete stunner of a car!!!

the black EK by Hypertune???
\

xtercii
13-11-2006, 07:04 PM
holy dooly, thats huge for the mods! :eek:


what 1/4 did you run??


think Yonas did 14.5, but apparently that was on his bad day.

Mrrevolution
14-11-2006, 07:59 AM
Yeh the black EK hatch by hypertune :-)

eg92b16a
14-11-2006, 03:09 PM
stock bottom end means stock piston , stock rods .
untouch block

Yes, correct. The whole engine is as I purchased it from Asian Auto spares.
Head hasn't been touched either. So that means the engine is totally stock internally as far as I'm aware.
Daniel B16A - yes an S100 with tuning will make a difference on an internally stock engine.

ALLMTR996
16-11-2006, 07:08 AM
think Yonas did 14.5, but apparently that was on his bad day.
Yes but at what MPH as that will show true power as with 119kw it should have run over 100mph in a EG and the ET should be in the high 13's.
ALLMTR996

tinkerbell
17-11-2006, 05:14 PM
think Yonas did 14.5, but apparently that was on his bad day.

i got 120kW on toda dyno and ran a 14.5 too? at 95mph...

TODA AU
19-11-2006, 03:45 PM
Yes but at what MPH as that will show true power as with 119kw it should have run over 100mph in a EG and the ET should be in the high 13's.
ALLMTR996

Yonas's car has a high peak power but makes no torque.
Peak power & peak torque arrive together at 8500rpm.
My apprentice's EG6 makes only 110kw but loads more torque than Yonas through the rev range.
Though they have the same car, he runs 13.4 @ 100mph with 9kw less.
More area under the curve makes for a quick car.
High peak power numbers are fairly meaningless if the power delivery isn't linear.

silver_screen
19-11-2006, 05:02 PM
how so very true. area under the curve always counts more in most case than not (unless its an all out drag assault and u sit @ ur peak power all the time)

ALLMTR996
19-11-2006, 05:59 PM
Yonas's car has a high peak power but makes no torque.
Peak power & peak torque arrive together at 8500rpm.
My apprentice's EG6 makes only 110kw but loads more torque than Yonas through the rev range.
Though they have the same car, he runs 13.4 @ 100mph with 9kw less.
More area under the curve makes for a quick car.
High peak power numbers are fairly meaningless if the power delivery isn't linear.
Does torque not make HP,yes it does so the one with 119kw should run more MPH even with a slower ET.
ALLMTR996

TODA AU
19-11-2006, 09:38 PM
Does torque not make HP,yes it does so the one with 119kw should run more MPH even with a slower ET.
ALLMTR996

In this instance, the one with more power has less torque.
That is it's mean torque & it's peak torque.
Torque is HP at a particular rpm, the higher the HP & the lower the rpm the greater the torque.
The 110kw makes a lot more power than the 119kw car for 90% of the rev range.
To be honest, Yonas's car would be hard pressed to pull the skin off a potato, let alone impress on the 1/4 mile.

xtercii
19-11-2006, 09:53 PM
So that EG6 has some very different modifications compared to Yonas' engine to achieve much greater mid-range but sacrificed top end power?

I am just quite confused that can't Yonas' engine be tuned with more mid-range or what you did was the optimum solution already?

ALLMTR996
19-11-2006, 09:55 PM
So that EG6 has some very different modifications compared to Yonas' engine to achieve much greater mid-range but sacrificed top end power?

I am just quite confused that can't Yonas' engine be tuned with more mid-range or what you did was the optimum solution already?
I'm sure Adrain will explain why this is, I would say its in the cam timing.But it also could be one of his bang for buck final drive setups in the one that ran 13's and better tires.
ALLMTR996

ALLMTR996
19-11-2006, 10:18 PM
Just noticed something that this thread started in Nov 2003 and now its getting people interested.
ALLMTR996

Twincam16
19-11-2006, 10:55 PM
So that EG6 has some very different modifications compared to Yonas' engine to achieve much greater mid-range but sacrificed top end power?

Drag needs mid-top end power + torque. If the majority of your torque is over vtec, you should be getting better times than a car with lower (but broader) torque/power.

Watch this vid of my drag last week in b16a and tell me where in video my revs drop under 6000rpm. There is no use for low end torque on dragstrip. In my opinion, because Yonas's car makes so much power at very peak of rev-range, it isnt put to good use.

IMO, a good time in a street FWD honda (my case a delsol below 15.000) should have consistent torque above 6000rpm with peak power around 7000-7500rpm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cKzrLl6jKo

e240
20-11-2006, 08:55 AM
and I also don't know all this about standard bottom ends...
Its all very misleading in trying to boast how little was done to get the the power up.

The B16A makes power from the heads, why don't describe the amount of work that went into the heads to make these sorts of power?

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 09:00 AM
yonas had stock head IIRC

ProECU
20-11-2006, 09:01 AM
Drag needs mid-top end power + torque. If the majority of your torque is over vtec, you should be getting better times than a car with lower (but broader) torque/power.


In my opinion, because Yonas's car makes so much power at very peak of rev-range, it isnt put to good use.

These two comments are contradictory. No?

EG5
20-11-2006, 09:13 AM
In this instance, the one with more power has less torque.
That is it's mean torque & it's peak torque.
Torque is HP at a particular rpm, the higher the HP & the lower the rpm the greater the torque.
The 110kw makes a lot more power than the 119kw car for 90% of the rev range.
To be honest, Yonas's car would be hard pressed to pull the skin off a potato, let alone impress on the 1/4 mile.


ALso when i ran the car , my rear disc was warp and still pull 96 mph
Every 1 cycle turn , it brakes by it self. too bad I sold the whole b16a set up already , im still itching to run it down the 1/4 mile.

EG5
20-11-2006, 09:15 AM
So that EG6 has some very different modifications compared to Yonas' engine to achieve much greater mid-range but sacrificed top end power?

I am just quite confused that can't Yonas' engine be tuned with more mid-range or what you did was the optimum solution already?

stock head
stock port

that explain it ?

barefootbonzai
20-11-2006, 09:48 AM
ALso when i ran the car , my rear disc was warp and still pull 96 mph
Every 1 cycle turn , it brakes by it self. too bad I sold the whole b16a set up already , im still itching to run it down the 1/4 mile.

Don't worry, i'm sure the new owner will give it a good bashing ;)

j3z3z
20-11-2006, 01:09 PM
Yonas's car has a high peak power but makes no torque.
Peak power & peak torque arrive together at 8500rpm.
My apprentice's EG6 makes only 110kw but loads more torque than Yonas through the rev range.
Though they have the same car, he runs 13.4 @ 100mph with 9kw less.
More area under the curve makes for a quick car.
High peak power numbers are fairly meaningless if the power delivery isn't linear.

Everyone a simple way to understant to make light of what toda is saying..

If you own or have access to a coppy of nfs underground 2 try this.
1. build a supra 100 percent.
2. then go to tune.
3. peak everything to do with power right up last bar on tuning the highest (turbo and engine)
4. run on the dyno and look at the graph. (high power+torque in high rpm range)
5. test it on the quater mile, take not of your time.

Now start again but with do all of the above but with step 3 and 4 do this
3. try and run the power up from the 1st bar to a level and try and keep it as flat as possible.
4. dyno (your power and torque will be lower. but the power and torque should not tapper off and will be very flat)

when you do you quater you will realise you have done a faster time much easier. but you will probably have a slower mph, maybe 10+. this is because the car 2 isnt designed for higher speed but getting up to a high speed faster then car 1 and the quicker and more time you can spend at a higher speed then car 1 helps you cover more distance faster

e240
20-11-2006, 01:34 PM
stock head
stock port

that explain it ?

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=884576&highlight=119kw#post884576

A 3 angle valve job + CTR cams etc is hardly a stock head. I still also have some doubt around not being polished but you can have the benefit of the doubt.

Not bagging you or anything but the reality of getting this much power from a 1.6 needs to be clarified.

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 01:39 PM
um, what honda leaves the factory without a 3 angle valve job?

and e240 - the "power" you talk of is only a dyno number... on a "happy happy joy joy" dyno...

does that clarify it for you?

e240
20-11-2006, 02:00 PM
um, what honda leaves the factory without a 3 angle valve job?

and e240 - the "power" you talk of is only a dyno number... on a "happy happy joy joy" dyno...

does that clarify it for you?


Tinky, so you're saying that the 119kw is not real? Then why keep emphasizing it in a number of posts?

Anyway, Toda's dyno have seen a number of B16as for its reading to be compared across B16as. So when a claim is done to have 119kws on a stock block :rolleyes: when other standard B16As (and tuned) on the same Dyno have done far less, you can't say that claim is just a "happy happy joy joy" claim. Especially not when you're claiming bragging rights with it.

does that clarify it for you?

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 02:12 PM
i got 120kW on the same dyno (B20VTEC), i ran 14.5 @ 95mph on same drag strip.

seems to be fairly consistent?

what are these other standard B16A's you speak of? do they make 100kW?

which ones have I/H/E ITR IM & TB and CTR cams + springs and Hondata?

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 02:24 PM
cant find ANY posts in this thread mentioning B16A's tuned on Toda Au's dyno... except EG5's one...

care to point them out?

e240
20-11-2006, 03:00 PM
cant find ANY posts in this thread mentioning B16A's tuned on Toda Au's dyno... except EG5's one...

care to point them out?

Not everyone from Toda posts their results here.

Based on your post, do you consider having CTR cams and springs as stock?

Maybe I'm just picky ya..:wave:

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 03:02 PM
seriously, what are you talking about?

the engine is NOT stock, that is WHY it makes "119kW"...

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 03:04 PM
if you really want to be picky - the engine should not be classified as a B16A? should it?

e240
20-11-2006, 03:11 PM
yonas had stock head IIRC


stock head
stock port

that explain it ?

Alright... thats it from me on this subject

fatboyz39
20-11-2006, 03:17 PM
our motor pulled 117 kw atw. This is a b18c7 but we manage 98MPH

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 03:20 PM
stock bottom end b16 with CTR cams, valve springs , Type R im + tb , BC header , s100


post #142 has all the details,

the head is stock.

if you think cams and springs make a head "not stock" then i guess we talk different languages...

to me - a head is stock untill its ports are hit with a die grinder...

fatboyz39
20-11-2006, 03:22 PM
Is it a ITR or CTR head?? or just a b16a head with CTR cams and such

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 03:25 PM
it WAS a stock B16A, then it became a stock B16A with:

CTR cams
valve springs
ITR Intake manifold
ITR throttle body
BC 4-2-1 headers
Hondata s100 (tuned)

TODA AU
20-11-2006, 03:47 PM
Yonas probably needs cam gears.

Easy way to show what I mean...
Yonas, PM me your rego number & I'll put the two cars over the top of each other...

ProECU
20-11-2006, 03:57 PM
More interesting is...
what did this motor make completely stock on that dyno?

and what's really going to complicate things is SAE correction. Final drive multiplication blah blah

I think we need to chillax, and take these results at face value.
Who cares really...

EG5
20-11-2006, 04:06 PM
Yonas probably needs cam gears.

Easy way to show what I mean...
Yonas, PM me your rego number & I'll put the two cars over the top of each other...

Also someone mentioned the final drive making all the difference... Spot on...

pm sent
damn this thread becomes crazy .

TODA AU
20-11-2006, 04:18 PM
Ok... Now what I've been saying is a bit easier to understand
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3430&d=1164003436

TODA AU
20-11-2006, 04:21 PM
More interesting is...
Who cares really...

Give that man a New... :thumbsup:

j3z3z
20-11-2006, 04:26 PM
Ok... Now what I've been saying is a bit easier to understand
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3430&d=1164003436

its easy to see that the red. makes better overall consistant power then the blue.
:thumbsup: adrian

ProECU
20-11-2006, 04:26 PM
Yonas' tune needs timing to be addressed.

Troubleshooting is what a dyno should be used for, not for bragging rights.

leech
20-11-2006, 04:34 PM
i got 131.4hp on a dyno dynamics dyno at street torque in alice springs. i had a haltec ex6 ecu, 2 1/4" exhaust and ram pod

fatboyz39
20-11-2006, 04:39 PM
Yonas car has two vtec kicks, hectik.

TODA AU
20-11-2006, 05:06 PM
Yonas' tune needs timing to be addressed.

Troubleshooting is what a dyno should be used for, not for bragging rights.
The power curve is just awful, isn't it.
Timing won't do it... Already tried that.
Adjustable cam pulleys would probably help a lot, making it more like the other car.
Probably the binning the BC headers would also be a step in the right direction.

xtercii
20-11-2006, 05:23 PM
How about adjustable cam gear? Would that be more iimportant than the cam pulleys?

silver_screen
20-11-2006, 05:57 PM
Im sure he meant cam gear :)

tinkerbell
20-11-2006, 06:25 PM
gear/pulley - they are the same, FFS!

and if i read that dyno chart right, would not the red torque curve be more desirable?

.::F[L]Y::.
20-11-2006, 06:37 PM
ot:also wouldnt you have to factor in the car that did 13.6 would have its final drive modified as oppose to yonas running a 4.44 final drive hence affecting the ET.

bennjamin
20-11-2006, 08:17 PM
Y::.;980941']ot:also wouldnt you have to factor in the car that did 13.6 would have its final drive modified as oppose to yonas running a 4.44 final drive hence affecting the ET.

I was just typing the same thing up then looked at "last reply" ~ FD has a big impact too :)

ProECU
20-11-2006, 08:31 PM
I wouldnt mind seeing a torque and a/f curve

ALLMTR996
21-11-2006, 07:53 AM
Give that man a New... :thumbsup:
Adrain I think this is thread is going in the right direction as I have been talking to Dyno Dave and he said that both of you have always said peak power is useless if it lacks strong mid range power.Now these current 2 cars that are being talked about are 100% proof of that.
ALLMTR996

silver_screen
22-11-2006, 06:24 AM
gear/pulley - they are the same, FFS!

and if i read that dyno chart right, would not the red torque curve be more desirable?

How very wrong u are. Gears have teeth if u must and pulleys have nothing...

U cant have a cam pully because it has nothing to grip to and turn.

Cam gears have teeth for the belt OR chain to sit on :)

tinkerbell
22-11-2006, 08:05 AM
How very wrong u are. Gears have teeth if u must and pulleys have nothing...

U cant have a cam pully because it has nothing to grip to and turn.

Cam gears have teeth for the belt OR chain to sit on :)

sorry to be off topic again...

but even though you are RIGHT - you are still WRONG

http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/pulleypictures.jpg

ProECU
22-11-2006, 09:00 AM
we knew what he meant....move on!

Adrian, I dont think cam gears are gonna fix those 2 dips in the curve.
There is something else goin on there, it has to be igntion timing.

What did you do to timing in that area to test if that was the issue?
Ever consider "retarding" timing... you'd be suprised.

ginganggooly
22-11-2006, 09:01 AM
who did the valve job on yonas' head?

silver_screen
22-11-2006, 09:13 AM
Incorrect usage of words :)

TODA AU
22-11-2006, 12:28 PM
we knew what he meant....move on!

Adrian, I dont think cam gears are gonna fix those 2 dips in the curve.
There is something else goin on there, it has to be igntion timing.

What did you do to timing in that area to test if that was the issue?
Ever consider "retarding" timing... you'd be suprised.

I know what you're saying,
FWIW, we tried both iginition retard & advance...
Also tried humps & dips in the timing at the problem area's with no great result though this did result in smoother power delivery than when the timing curve had a linear advance to peak.
The final curve ended up with a few small humps / dips.
Not pretty, but there wasn't much else that could be done.

Regarding mixtures,
Tried as lean as 13.5:1 & as rich as 11.5:1
FWIW, it liked it best at 12.3~12.4:1 WOT

IMO, there's other issues with that engine,
It's likley the cams are retarded & causing the lack of mid range & high peak.
This could be from material removed during head service & possible use of thinner head gasket.
No adjustable pulleys were available so it's only guess work.
Further to that, there may be an issue with the head on this motor.
In the past, we've had engines built elsewhere, come in to be tuned that have had a similar output charateristic.
When nothing worked to solve it including cam pulleys & the problem turned out to be the valve job in the head itself.
In any case, there's no fixing this one for now as I'm pretty sure that engine is no longer in the car... (Not sure, you'd have to ask Yonas)
Cheers

Adrian

tinkerbell
22-11-2006, 12:32 PM
When nothing worked to solve it including cam pulleys & the problem turned out to be the valve job in the head itself.


:thumbsup:

you don't save money with a cheap head job...

EG5
22-11-2006, 02:34 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v677/YonasLiu/IMGP0135.jpg
This is what I got with the same b16a motor/gearbox and head , ctr cams + valve springs , Type R IM + TB .The only difference : J's racing intake , JDM 4-1 header , spoon plug and play ecu. No adj cam gear are used.

This is before BC header , 70MM cai , and hondata s100.

ALLMTR996
22-11-2006, 06:05 PM
:thumbsup:

you don't save money with a cheap head job...
Sounds like you are speaking for experience :zip:
ALLMTR996

kraiye
22-11-2006, 10:59 PM
This could be from material removed during head service & possible use of thinner head gasket.
dam i never thought of how the head gasket may affect timing. would it really make that much difference? i mean u lose timing but gain compression. am very curious how this may affect things when i do my minime.

btw: this thread is total pwnage!
...
To be honest, Yonas's car would be hard pressed to pull the skin off a potato, let alone impress on the 1/4 mile.


Don't worry, i'm sure the new owner will give it a good bashing ;)


it WAS a stock B16A, then it became a stock B16A with:

CTR cams
valve springs
ITR Intake manifold
ITR throttle body
BC 4-2-1 headers
Hondata s100 (tuned)


but even though you are RIGHT - you are still WRONG


you don't save money with a cheap head job...


luv it :thumbsup:

tinkerbell
23-11-2006, 08:23 AM
it is about 0.5 degrees retarded for every 20 thou of an inch removed...

but i never verified this figure independently, it was just what i was told by a person...

tinkerbell
23-11-2006, 01:16 PM
Sounds like you are speaking for experience :zip:
ALLMTR996

yes:
http://home.exetel.com.au/tinkerbell/B20VTECdynoOct06.jpg

shocking valve seat job according to my tuner(s)...

i am looking forwards to seeing what a "proper" multi-angle valve job does to that aweful torque drop over 5600rpm...

silver_screen
23-11-2006, 06:59 PM
Normal for an engine dude. im suprised it even made 295nm

tinkerbell
24-11-2006, 08:41 AM
o'rly?

TODA AU
24-11-2006, 09:09 AM
it is about 0.5 degrees retarded for every 20 thou of an inch removed...

Dave, you love maths & geometry...
It's not linear on the retard when you remove metal ;)

tinkerbell
24-11-2006, 09:15 AM
OK, but isn't there a ballpark range?

ProECU
24-11-2006, 09:22 AM
Ofcourse it's not linear (ie cam profiles are eliptical), we're dealing with circular geometries, but I agree with Tinkerbell (although it pains me to admit it), the ratio of metal removed to retard conceptually is a linear measure.

Why do you suggest otherwise Adrian? What are we missing?

TODA AU
25-11-2006, 08:29 AM
OK, but isn't there a ballpark range?
There is, but it is more than you've quoted.
Ball park guesses don't make for good engine building practice.
FWIW, we always set cams to the correct LCA when building engines.
This can't be done by rule of thumb.
A good example is the rule of thumb used by a certain US cam manufacturer regarding metal removed etc.
This retard rule of thumb was their recommended method of setting correct cam timing.
Needless to say, using their method exactly, the engine performed rather poorly.
Time was wasted at the customers request playing with the timing on the dyno, with no real result.
The question was asked of the cam manufacturer, & after some time, they provided us with the cam LCA's & lift @ TDC figures. We were able to set the cams precisely for the customer & with good result. (Where they ended up would have taken a very long time to arrive at on the dyno.
Though you can use rules of thumb, in this instance I disagree strongly.
Cam timing is critical & aught to be afforded the proper time & effort to get the results you're after.

Of course it's not linear (i.e. cam profiles are elliptical), we're dealing with circular geometries, but I agree with Tinkerbell (although it pains me to admit it), the ratio of metal removed to retard conceptually is a linear measure.
You didn't miss missing anything Evan; you answered your own question, and were at pains to contradict yourself.

ekhybrid
25-03-2007, 11:54 PM
any1 got a print out of a stock b16 that they can post up?

Drew
25-03-2007, 11:58 PM
220,000km and worn valve guides
http://www.nvrfgt.co.nz/gallery2/d/3115-2/DSC03730.jpg
http://www.nvrfgt.co.nz/gallery2/d/3119-2/DSC03732.jpg
Obviously that is an EF8 SiR although there wasn't enough space on the sheet thus the Si not SiR

Damn can't wait to get my own dyno >_< not like there's any space to put one unless I get the dyno packs

ekhybrid
26-03-2007, 12:08 AM
wow that was quick lol
what mods did u have btw?

Drew
26-03-2007, 12:10 AM
Just that intake pipe and filter

But that shinny red valve cover is really where all the power came from...

It was so beautiful almost mesmerizing to look at, just couldn't help but stare...
So regret selling it to that ****ing drop kick... now it's a wreck, brings a tear to the eye

ekhybrid
26-03-2007, 12:22 AM
lol well thats a good result

any1 else with a stock b16 dyno print out? just wanna see the differences in the power/torque curve to compare with my run with the tsuchinoko intake

andiiso
26-03-2007, 04:00 AM
i read all 19 pages trying to find anyone with a completly stock B16a2 dyno sheet lolz, i wanna know what people are getting on stock B16a2 on dyno dynamics machine 4th gear anyone have one please ? =]

ek4-guy
26-03-2007, 08:54 AM
My EK4 with 200,000kms

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u156/ek4-guy/kodak203.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u156/ek4-guy/kodak.jpg

dsp26
26-03-2007, 12:54 PM
^^^sorry can't see it at work... i'm real keen to see it if its a stock dyno... mind posting the figure??

ek4-guy
26-03-2007, 04:29 PM
Nah mate sorry its not stock it got 108.7kw

JasonGilholme
26-03-2007, 04:58 PM
Stock will be about 88 - 90.

ekhybrid
26-03-2007, 06:26 PM
wat mods do u have ek4-guy
?

gnx1987
26-03-2007, 06:34 PM
I got 109.7 kw with IHE and hondata stage 2 at revzone nunawading

SLOWEGG
26-03-2007, 07:30 PM
wat mods do u have ek4-guy
?

Toda headers, injen intake and i think fuji exhaust.

kn1ghtm4r3
26-03-2007, 08:10 PM
^ ahah mad i was going to do the same. i have the injen intake waiting to save for the fuji n toda =)

looks promising

ek4-guy
27-03-2007, 07:53 AM
Toda headers, injen intake and i think fuji exhaust.

Yep dats it the system is a RM01a aswell

Im thinking about cams and Hondata next

SloTegra
30-03-2007, 12:50 PM
hey guys if any of you have seen high octane 5, they bought a 1990 crx si-R had k&n Air Filter and a exhaust (most likely catback) they dynoed it and made 104kw atw, is that bs? or is that on the flywheel..

SLOWEGG
30-03-2007, 01:34 PM
Its possible but every dyno is different. USA dynos read higher apparently.

dsp26
30-03-2007, 01:40 PM
Hi-Octane are NZ though and their dynos are on par with ours.

Ketzel is a funny guy.... anyone watch the Banzai orange crx doing 11s hahahaha

ian
30-03-2007, 01:51 PM
2000 civic vtir coupe
stock B16A2 engine
mods include: 18" rims, king springs & tan leather interior.
95.XX kws at the wheels (TODA NSW).

ekhybrid
30-03-2007, 02:25 PM
how many k's did your motor have at the time ian?

BlitZ
30-03-2007, 04:04 PM
2000 civic vtir coupe
stock B16A2 engine
mods include: 18" rims, king springs & tan leather interior.
95.XX kws at the wheels (TODA NSW).

Good to see you still on...
you fresh leather seats were good for 5kw:thumbsup:

silver_screen
31-03-2007, 09:19 AM
expect to see an insane B16 in the not so distant future...

We're building a B16a and this thing will make some serious n/a power :)

atm it has unknown compression, but id say it'll be going to around 12.5:1
custom ground cam spec'd to make power from around 6000rpm- 13,000rpm

custom crank cradle and massive 12mm main studs. Custom forged and balanced crank so that it can actually spin that fast. The head has an overtop port job to it with oversized valves.. only downside is it has performance spring which we've notifed the customer of.. theyre gonna break with that cam, but the customer says it will be ok...

what do we know about building motors....

expect it to make no less than 150kw @ wheels

BlitZ
31-03-2007, 09:33 AM
damn.. 13,000rpm.. .......

would be great to see when done..
Havent heard much about forged cranks... most people just polish and balance.. damn



expect to see an insane B16 in the not so distant future...

We're building a B16a and this thing will make some serious n/a power :)

atm it has unknown compression, but id say it'll be going to around 12.5:1
custom ground cam spec'd to make power from around 6000rpm- 13,000rpm

custom crank cradle and massive 12mm main studs. Custom forged and balanced crank so that it can actually spin that fast. The head has an overtop port job to it with oversized valves.. only downside is it has performance spring which we've notifed the customer of.. theyre gonna break with that cam, but the customer says it will be ok...

what do we know about building motors....

expect it to make no less than 150kw @ wheels

wkdteg
31-03-2007, 12:29 PM
I got 109.7 kw with IHE and hondata stage 2 at revzone nunawading

i got 105lw (up from 75) with shitty exhaust and intake, plus hondata S200 tuned by james at revzone too

IZY-10
31-03-2007, 11:00 PM
hey guys just got back from autosalon. i was speaking to a guy with a ek w/b16 and i saw his dyno chart and it showed 96fwkw with 220nm of torque. is that normal? he told me no internals had been done the only mod he had done was 'wait for it' a 3'' exhaust wtf also he had 240XXXks on it!

silver_screen
31-03-2007, 11:12 PM
yer most people.... this guy isnt most ppl.. i think his tryin to make the most powerful b16 on the planet or something...

this block and head is a real piece of work... gotta see it ;)

SLOWEGG
01-04-2007, 02:23 AM
Its not proecu ?

silver_screen
01-04-2007, 09:16 AM
no.. im sure its not