Oversteer

[vteccoupe]

Hey guys, my dc2r is pretty oversteering and at the moment looking at ways to curb this "problem".

What im running atm:
JIC FLT- FAS coilovers
EBC yellow pads - front and rear

at the moment running around 1deg+ camber on the rear and 2deg on the front. With rear spare tyre and panels removed.

Not running any camber kit, would adding camber to the rear reduce the oversteer or might worsen it.

i know abit of oversteery nature is good for track, but mine seems abit too much for daily or spirited driving in the streets.

Please let me know of any ways to stabilise the rear.

[hastE]

a thicker front sway bar to increase understeer

[JohnL]

As hastE suggests, a stiffer front ARB, and/or softer rear springs, and/or remove the rear ARB.

But first, make sure you have no rear toe-out, and that no bushes are shot.

[chargeR]

What spring rates do you have on those JICs? It doesn't seem like a setup that would cause excessive oversteer. Maybe as JohnL says check for anything broken or worn bushes, since most off the shelf JDM coilovers have front biased and hence understeer biased spring rates.

Going to a larger front sway bar seems like overkill, you should be able to get the behaviour you want by playing with alignments.

Also may I suggest that if you are experiencing full tail out oversteer on the street your driving is a little more than 'spirited' :p.

[SPEEDCORE]

Check those rear bushings.... if they seem ok...

I would be playing around with tyre pressures and damper settings to see if you can eleviate the problem before spending money on more mods.

[vteccoupe]

on the track its just massive oversteer, haha as im a amatuer driver, i have to settle the car each time on a long downhill straight before a 90deg right hand bend

the pictures below happened when i went into the corner too fast, the rear caught up on me, but generally doesnt fwd cars understeer when they gets into a corner too fast? or isit also becz its a downhill when all the weight is transferred to the front hence lightening the rear


http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8005/31796139vw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/31796139vw5.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img249/31796139vw5.jpg/1/)

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2907/94991592wk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/94991592wk4.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img444/94991592wk4.jpg/1/)

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9995/35877829zb2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/35877829zb2.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img249/35877829zb2.jpg/1/)

being still a noob, i guess i gotta change my driving style.

At the moment im running front and rear neutral toe.
Spring rates is 10kg Front and 7kg Rear

Also, at barbagallo i started out with same tyre pressure front and rear. Then i lowered the rear by about 2psi. Still pretty oversteery.

[hastE]

What spring rates do you have on those JICs? It doesn't seem like a setup that would cause excessive oversteer. Maybe as JohnL says check for anything broken or worn bushes, since most off the shelf JDM coilovers have front biased and hence understeer biased spring rates.

Going to a larger front sway bar seems like overkill, you should be able to get the behaviour you want by playing with alignments.

Also may I suggest that if you are experiencing full tail out oversteer on the street your driving is a little more than 'spirited' :p.

thus needs a thicker or tighter adjustable front sway

but yes, cracked/worn bushes can get the rear to slide out abit

[SPEEDCORE]

thus needs a thicker or tighter adjustable front sway


I disagree....the front sway size is fine.

There is something else going on.....

[fatboyz39]

stock ITR swaybar sizes are good enough.

I would put down to driver. Slow in fast out.

[YaMiKaZe]

what about damper settings? try setting the back softer??
and what about the rear tyres? are they inferior to the front?

[bennjamin]

being still a noob, i guess i gotta change my driving style.



Yes. 100% right. You need to larn how to walk before you learn how to run.

You need to develop your skills on a less modified setup and get better from there.

The only thing you NEED is practice.

[chargeR]

I agree with these guys, unless something is brokeded on the car the oversteer is probably mostly a property of the driver and not the car. I was just too polite to say :).

You could however try a touch (2-3mm total) of toe in at the rear just to make the rear of the car a little more controllable and progressive when it lets go.

[GreekWarrior]

on the track its just massive oversteer, haha as im a amatuer driver, i have to settle the car each time on a long downhill straight before a 90deg right hand bend

the pictures below happened when i went into the corner too fast, the rear caught up on me, but generally doesnt fwd cars understeer when they gets into a corner too fast? or isit also becz its a downhill when all the weight is transferred to the front hence lightening the rear


http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8005/31796139vw5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/31796139vw5.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img249/31796139vw5.jpg/1/)

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2907/94991592wk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/94991592wk4.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img444/94991592wk4.jpg/1/)

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9995/35877829zb2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/35877829zb2.jpg/1/w320.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img249/35877829zb2.jpg/1/)

being still a noob, i guess i gotta change my driving style.

At the moment im running front and rear neutral toe.
Spring rates is 10kg Front and 7kg Rear

Also, at barbagallo i started out with same tyre pressure front and rear. Then i lowered the rear by about 2psi. Still pretty oversteery.

looks like your in a drift comp lol

[Parsout]

I think your right in saying that oversteer in that car is strange, I gave the keys of the DC2R to my younger brother at one stage and hung on for dear life - that car is VERY hard to make oversteer, going super-hot into a corner results in total understeer - never a hint of the rear stepping out.

I would look at damping rates - too hard and any little bump or crack will disturb its rythym on a fast/sweeping corner - too soft has an adverse affect on traction.

Have you got any other mods suspension wise?

[bennjamin]

sounds like your tyres were too hot or too cold , came in too fast , backed off and the back stepped out. Change driving style

[55EXX]

easy with the stepping off the throttle. more throttle induces understeer. get more weight onto the rears and more grip with more on the throttle.

may be your dampers. soften the rear. more camber rear may help decrease oversteer also.

how are your tyres?

[Benson]

Sounds like you got your sussy setup wrong.

Nothing to do with sway bars as stock ones are perfect.

Go get a wheel alignment and recheck the settings

Remember on track, tyres pressure is essential. If you running to semi slicks, around 34psi hot is good, so that means around 30psi cold

Adjust dampers as well, soften it up abit.

[vteccoupe]

guys im running AD07 all round. 70-80% thread up front and 90% thread rear.

Might play around with the setting and try a touch of toe in.

:thumbsup: cheers for all the constructive input guys.

ahah i was trying to close up on the turbo cars in front of me by braking late etc. lol.. but all gd, driver factor causing these for sure.

might soften up the rear 2 clicks each and see how it goes from there

[squish85]

if that does'nt work.. you might wanna get it checked out at Wikinson's Suspension..

[nd55]

vteccoupe,

> Sounds like you got your sussy setup wrong.

I'm guessing your dc2r is not set up like that by accident.
It sounds spot on to me.


Despite the high-ish spring rates, is there any chance of bottoming out the shocks?


What's the condition of Rear Trailing arm bushes and sway bar links/bushes? New? Stuffed OEM? Aftermarket?

What LCA's are you using?


> You could however try a touch (2-3mm total).

2-3mm is a touch? What's normal toe-in on a ITR?



Nick.

[chargeR]

Despite the high-ish spring rates, is there any chance of bottoming out the shocks?
What's the condition of Rear Trailing arm bushes and sway bar links/bushes? New? Stuffed OEM? Aftermarket?

What LCA's are you using?

2-3mm is a touch? What's normal toe-in on a ITR?



I have no idea what normal toe in is on a DC2R, I just made those numbers up as they were what I used to use on my DC5R before I went to zero rear toe for more oversteer :p.

I would think that the in the situation he describes he would be more likely to be bottoming out the front which means the wheel rate would instantly approach infinity and probably cause wild and sudden understeer, not oversteer.

There is something amiss here I think, either driver or something is broken on the car.

[nd55]

> either driver or something is broken on the car.

I think "broken" might be a bit strong. This is a fairly well dialed in ITR.
The behaviour is not though.

My candidates:

the infamous broken RTA/poly bush snap oversteer.
Ek LCA's on the EG chassis.
broken subframe.
a severe case of lift-off oversteer, slow down!!!
shock bump stops not cut down, on a lowered suspension.

> at the moment running around 1deg+ camber on the rear and 2deg on the front.

That's negative camber, yes?

Nick.

[JohnL]

If you panic (at least just a a little) going too hard into a corner and so back off, then engine braking (or brake braking) will create a forward weight transfer; the front gets heavier / rear gets lighter / front gains grip / rear loses grip, car oversteers / maybe even spins. Deeper tread depth on the rear than the front is likely to contribute to this problem.

[Limbo]

yep rear seems too stiff. My corolla did this on the track then we stiffened it too much in the rear. I ended up using 50% at front and 20% rear on Konis

You just need to play with the settings abit more until you can get the suspension setup to your driving style or change how your driving

P.S Oversteering is fun though ;)

[Oxer]

P.S Oversteering is fun though ;)

Id be more then happy :p

[CRAVED]

does this over steer only happen in the braking area? does it happen on all corners under braking?

What brake pads are you running front and rear - brake bias can cause this if the rears are working too much.. possible more street spec rears are at operating temp versus "racing" fronts.

just a hint fro you, if it starts to slide like that, get back onto the gas to bring the rear back in - this will take some practice - but if you keep doing this you should have plenty of opportunity

[040501912]

driver got distracted by chicks on the pit lane.. LOL!!!..

get some thicker rear sways might get ur car back in line. or check your bushings

[CRAVED]

get some thicker rear sways might get ur car back in line. or check your bushings


Thicker rears would make it worse, as it effectively stiffens the springs in the rear under cornering.

[nd55]

> if it starts to slide like that, get back onto the gas to bring the rear back in

Any trail braker's here?

I not comfortable doing this, but I'm told it's useful in these situations.

Nick.

[T-onedc2]

occasional trail braker here lol, even tap/hold brake on corner exit to reduce wheelspin.

Everything the vteccoupe said leads purely to driver error/inexperience (not to sound harsh), just practice and you can predict what your car will do, then next time you'll catch it earlier :thumbsup:

[Tegzieboi_BAR]

hey oversteer isnt such a rare thing, i only got a dc4 on tein ss + f/r braces n stock sways but have noticed a lot more oversteer than understeer, n a mate of mine took his (stock) ek9 2 the track n had an oversteering problem.

[dudeling7]

i remember the first time on the track when i was crapping my pants and would let off accelerator lol its the worst thing to do......it sounds like you are getting lift-off oversteer as others have pointed out - only experience will help you.

[Elwood]

Learn to hold that drift..

Looks mean :P

[e240]

Is it on every corner or just that particular one.

A common mistake I find on the track is that people brake way to late. Try giving yourself more time to adjust to the corner and then work up from there.

[nd55]

> A common mistake I find

let's see...

trusting the wrong people
avoiding the right people
judging character by the size of bXXbs not smile
picking the wrong jobs
thinking that $50 note in my pocket will get me through to pay day
wanting to believe Danni Minogue was actually the talented sister


... wait, ive gone off topic, where's honda-tech.com?

Nick.

[vteccoupe]

hey oversteer isnt such a rare thing, i only got a dc4 on tein ss + f/r braces n stock sways but have noticed a lot more oversteer than understeer, n a mate of mine took his (stock) ek9 2 the track n had an oversteering problem.

was told oversteer is gd for track, provided u can control it haha

[aaronng]

was told oversteer is gd for track, provided u can control it haha

Like e240 said, you might be braking too late, which sends all the weight to the front and unloading the rear when you turn in, causing oversteer.

[string]

was told oversteer is gd for track, provided u can control it haha

Oversteer is simply the condition where the chassis' rotation is more than the steering wheel would logically indicate (rear tyre doing lots of work). The more rotational work you get from the rear tyres, the more power you can apply to the front tyres. With only 10/7 rates, you're not asking your rear tyres to do very much - spinning and "oversteer" problems will most likely be from crazy driver inputs :D

[midnightdood]

Having has a glance at the pics of the car - has your suspension been setup with the front and rear roll centers (of the car) in mind ?

I have not read all of the previous posts - but reducing the dampening on the bump stroke of the rear might help.

If the front roll centre is out relative to the rear - all the toe, camber, castor adjustments are a band aid fix (at best).

[Int3gra-T]

learn to drive vino, case closed :P

[SHIFTY]

lol, dc2r is fairly oversteery.. try not to suddenly lift of the throttle, this will cause lift of oversteer and transfer the weight of the car and cause it to jump out sidewayzzzzz..

Be suttle and slow with the throttle, dont do sudden jabs.

lol

[JasonGilholme]

The pictures posted seem to be something that is correctable. IE if you had have jumped back on the throttle she would have pulled straight (unless you were going WAAAAYYYYY to fast and braked WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY too late)

The key with FWD cars is to get all your braking done before you turn that wheel. It also means you can now accellerate through the apex of the turn and have a better go at someone on the next straight.

Once you organise your braking/turning/accellerating technique you'll find that the car will be faster, your tyres will last longer and you won't look like a FWD tryin to drift haha.

The stock setup of an ITR is great for track. Thats the way they designed them.

and if you find yourself with a twitch rear end, don't hit the brakes cause youll turn it around. Jump back on the throttle, point the steering wheel in the direction you want to go and she'll pull straight again.

[string]

The key with FWD cars is to get all your braking done before you turn that wheel. It also means you can now accellerate through the apex of the turn and have a better go at someone on the next straight.


You cannot be maximising the use of the traction circle if you return to the centre (finish braking) before any lateral force is produced. You need to trade off braking force for steering input until you hit the apex - you are completely off the brakes and at your maximum steering and can now apply power as you remove steering.

Every car and corner is different, but the rules are the same. Unless you are moving around the traction circle smoothly, you're not going as fast as you could be.