what number will i get for this set up...

[bradb16a]

Im in the process of building my k20a engine
And this the set up I will be running
Ross Racing Pistons high comp 13 .5 pistons
Toda forged rods
Toda value spring
Super tec valves
Toda head gasket
K-pro
Toda C spec cams

What power should I get from these set up…..

Is there any other parts I will need to do the build ….

Is any one running IPS cams and power out are they getting
mugen header but will be going to SSR

[fatboyz39]

IPS are great cams. check out k20a.org for results

[bradb16a]

will they get better number that c spec toda

[EG5]

depends on which spec of IPS cams
Recently someone in usa with basic k24a built motor + ips k10 cams ran 10,79 down the 1/4 mile. 330 whp

[bradb16a]

only with k20 bottom end ....

are the 2 spec of IPS cams

[timofytit]

holy dooley, 330hp......nice

[bradb16a]

holy dooley, 330hp......nice


will it get that 330HP with c spec toda cams ????

I saw your build my hat comes off your build is sick....
hope to see you on the track when my one built what number does yours do .. your one block in 2.2

[EG5]

only with k20 bottom end ....

are the 2 spec of IPS cams

There are more than 2 specs for IPS cams:
IPS K2 , IPS Kme , IPS K10 , IPS K15

Takes forever to order them up

[bradb16a]

IPS k10 look the goods ..
anyone down under using them in a k20a what number are they getting..

[EG5]

IPS k10 look the goods ..
anyone down under using them in a k20a what number are they getting..

We got the cams coming soon

[mattyd]

number depends on a lot of things....
im running toda c's, 12.5:1 comp pistons(toda), eagle rods, standard crank, on standard im, toda headers, and restrictive rm-01 fujitsubo exhaust. netted 175.5 fwkw....
but i wasnt obsessed with numbers when building it.. and its still not finished..

speak to a motor builder, armed with as many specs in the parts that you want to install, ie cams and pistons and valves to see what troubles you may find with them running together ie.. at full cam advancement on the lower lobe and on the higher lobe.. speak with your tuner, get as much info as you can before you start..

and dont forget to clay the motor before its all bolted together and put back in the car.

if you are after massive numbers.. sell your car, buy an evo/skyline/maybe a silvia and mod from there... its exhausting and expensive trying to get more that 300whp going na.

either that or lower the comp, some less agressive cams than the toda c's, and go for a turbro.... mad flutterz

[Benson]

wack in a k24 bottom end, cheapest mods for power and displacement

[honda_b_blastn]

wack in a k24 bottom end, cheapest mods for power and displacement

agreed,best mod i did:thumbsup:

[bradb16a]

staying 2L ...

[fatboyz39]

0-150kw.

[Benson]

Weak! haha

It will be hard to chase the torque of a 2.4l

[Slaz]

Maybe he wants to rev or track it without worrying about the bottom end trying to remove itself from the block but bang for buck and drag/street use then a K24 is the go, but id rather a 2.2 stroker and have the reliability opposed to .2 of a litre in extra displacement.

With those mods i guess you'd be looking at similar power to mattyd depending on final set-up, comp and cams, build and tuning.

[fatboyz39]

Who said k24 is unreliable?

Build the bottom end properly and they are just as strong as the 2.0l

[mattyd]

Bradb16a - www.k20a.org... a massive wealth of information.. helped me out heaps.
hope it helps you!

[bradb16a]

thanks for the info the car is being built for a track car ... weekend fun car .

[mattyd]

awesome! chuck some money aside for an oil cooler, some decent gauges, some hardcore engine mounts/ gearbox mounts, decent clutch (to specification of your needs).
The best thing that i did was switch to coilovers too, no point having all that power, and now traction/ stability...

where abouts you located bradb16a?

[barefootbonzai]

hey mattyd, i remember reading a thread ages about your k build, and you said you were gonna hit the drag strip. You get a chance to do it yet?

[Slaz]

Who said k24 is unreliable?

Build the bottom end properly and they are just as strong as the 2.0l

With that comment im talking taking a K24 bottom end to the track and giving it what for, as you know, hard enough keeping a b series together but a K24 and its piston speeds for any sort of endurance event will be asking alot of it and due to the block and crank design, it wont like what its doing as much as a k20 or 2.2 in a k20.

[mattyd]

barefoot.. no i havent.. pretty much as soon as i got it back, it got taken off the road again as some douche in a 4 wheel drive managed to not see a line of traffic on the freeway and hit my arse end.. problems with his insurance ( i worked for the company he was insured with, so i knew everything) plus repairers being closed over christmas = close to 3 months off the road... then i went overseas.. and now im back looking to do the same again... once i get some decent tyres... there is just so much shit on the market these days.
im hanging hanging and hanging, but work takes up too much time for me at the moment.. it was meant to slow down, but im still overworked!

soon though!

[mattyd]

slaz is right.. k24 piston speed at high rpm isnt something to be ignored.. neither is the k20, but yeah something to be mindful of when building a k24 bottom end

[fatboyz39]

With that comment im talking taking a K24 bottom end to the track and giving it what for, as you know, hard enough keeping a b series together but a K24 and its piston speeds for any sort of endurance event will be asking alot of it and due to the block and crank design, it wont like what its doing as much as a k20 or 2.2 in a k20.

Torque wins races. I would rather have a midrange then peak power.

[mattyd]

torque drives trucks too.

you want torque, buy a v8, or fit a turbo, hell buy a turbo desiel golf TDI.. enough torque, but it goes nowhere quick

yes displacement = torque in majority of cases, but in the case of this, with a properly designed intake manifold (honda do a decent job with theirs) and properly designed exhaust on top of you build, you can have more than enough tyre frying torque to get you outta that hole and on to the mid to upper rev range, which is where you will sit in majority of "races"

[fatboyz39]

and spent $$$ in close gear set.

[mattyd]

Obviously we have differing opinions, i see that you have a ek k24 for sale, so you went with the accord motor.

i guess this is a case of different bore n strokes for different folks...

[Slaz]

Torque wins races. I would rather have a midrange then peak power.

So does reliability...........................

You arnt quiet getting what im trying to say Jimmy, with the overall design and rod length of a K24 its working alot harder at alot less revs and has the potential to fail, id rather a good crank and rod ratio found on the K20 or a K20 with a 2.2 stroker crank and if you really were hung up on your 200cc in displacment, accomodate it via the bore and have the piece of mind of being able to rev it alot harder and further and be able to handle driver error's such as big down shifts or missing a gear ect alot more.

So, is there a diesel class in supersprints in 2010?? :p

[fatboyz39]

We'll have to wait on the result of the upcoming dc5r being built in the allmotor section with the 2.2l crank.

Im still doing readings, and still open to other opinions

[Slaz]

Yeah even im interested to see the results of that build.

But lets put it in a form that is abit more common to most, would you rather a B18C7 bottom end with a bigger bore, or a B20 bottom end with the same bore and therfore more displacment and go flogging it as that would be a comparable block/crank quality and application as the k series counterpart.

I know which one i'd want to run.

[fatboyz39]

Yeah even im interested to see the results of that build.

But lets put it in a form that is abit more common to most, would you rather a B18C7 bottom end with a bigger bore, or a B20 bottom end with the same bore and therfore more displacment and go flogging it as that would be a comparable block/crank quality and application as the k series counterpart.

I know which one i'd want to run.

Are we talking stock for both blocks?

[fatboyz39]

Dyno graph k24 and JDM k20, both have I/H/E ECU tune. Same gear ratios.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/fatboyz39/DSC09937.jpg

"I know which one i'd want to run."

[Benson]

The k24 Accord block are very reliable if built properly. Some say b20 block are weak, but look at Tinkerbell's b20 bottom end, its still going strong.

Look at the power difference!

[Slaz]

All good and well the torque is there, that hasnt been disputed in this debate, its the abitlity for that engine to be a reliable track engine and take sustained revs over a long period.

For shits and giggles, who out there is tracking there K24?

All the engines going around are street/drag motors only being leaned on for short bursts compared to a track engine.

Fair call on Dave's engine Benny but really, how much power is he producing in the scheme of things, no where near that when your looking at K series figures, and have you actually looked at the rod ratios of those motors?

The power figures for both engines can be similair, but the K20 will produce it safer and over a broader rev range, and with the same power and torque given the config/build of the engine.

Yes Jimmy, im talking comparing stock bottom ends between K20 and the K24, whist they share very similar physical appearance, they are made for completely different applications.

[bennjamin]

i think some people here know more than others - that is , the actual mechanics behind it rather than just what they have driven or seen a dyno print out of.

Lets get some more input on this !

[bennjamin]

remember this thread is for the OP only , not a off topic discussion relative to k24 vs k20.

Brad b16a , just get the thing together (you are anyway) , get it tuned to optimum and then you tell US what you got.

[barefootbonzai]

If i was planing on using after market rods and pistons, value for money i'd go the k24 bottom end. If i was super wealthy and don't care about money, i'd do the 2.2L stroker kit, better yet 2.4 bottom with 2.6 stroker.

[Benson]

If i was planing on using after market rods and pistons, value for money i'd go the k24 bottom end. If i was super wealthy and don't care about money, i'd do the 2.2L stroker kit, better yet 2.4 bottom with 2.6 stroker.

:thumbsup:

[bradb16a]

remember this thread is for the OP only , not a off topic discussion relative to k24 vs k20.

Brad b16a , just get the thing together (you are anyway) , get it tuned to optimum and then you tell US what you got.


im going to the US in 8 days and will be back at the end of feb when i get back the build will start

[mattyd]

Brad.. pick up as many parts over there as you can. Speak to people on k20a.org, get them to put together a package over there.. and pick it up while you are there..
they are getting awesome numbers out of their engines over there... majority of their parts are US made, but they do the research and have them in stock. look at IPS and IB and brian crower.. tested and sworn by by these guys.
The scene for k motors over there is huge! Sure to even pick up bargins!

Contact them now and get it done and save a bucket on shipping.

While you are there can you just pick me up one of everything and bring it back too? lol

[bradb16a]

mate im all over it 52mm ITB's $1100

[mattyd]

that is awesome...........
get me some.. and ill ummm pay you back some time next year lol

any workshops in mind to do your build yet?

[Slaz]

If i was planing on using after market rods and pistons, value for money i'd go the k24 bottom end. If i was super wealthy and don't care about money, i'd do the 2.2L stroker kit, better yet 2.4 bottom with 2.6 stroker.

It is going off topic but in regards to the K24 crank it isnt much chop, hence why in the turbocharged RDX which is based on the K24, people are modifying these cranks and installing them into K24's with rods and pistons as these cranks are built/weighted much better, but still, wernt designed to rev, unlike the 2.2 crank designed for the K20, and ill stress once again, depending on application, endurance vs drag/street, the weight, counter weights and design of the crank/rod ratio shouldnt be ignored on the K and F series engines.

As was mentioned earlier, i didnt think this was a discusion about bigger is better and bang for buck, rather his build and what the engine would be used for.

[barefootbonzai]

No one is saying we want to rev super high... Reliability of the k24 revving to 7400ish wouldn't be much different to a k20 that will have to spend it's time 8000+ to get the same power.

I have no idea what you're getting all worked up about.

[bradb16a]

that is awesome...........
get me some.. and ill ummm pay you back some time next year lol

any workshops in mind to do your build yet?

Dont know who is going to do the build going to get some quotes onces all parts are in the hand and i know what needs to be done.

[040501912]

1 heck crazy ep3 coming up ... lol!!!..
would like to hear what power u putting out.

just out of interest,
J's racing k24 build motor on the fit pushing 330 whp :|

[Slaz]

No one is saying we want to rev super high... Reliability of the k24 revving to 7400ish wouldn't be much different to a k20 that will have to spend it's time 8000+ to get the same power.

I have no idea what you're getting all worked up about.

Not getting worked up at all Duy, just saying what i would rather for a track/endurance application given the original post opposed to a K24 bottom end due to the build difference between them and the rod ratio, he's working the original motor as he said he was earlier.


just out of interest,
J's racing k24 build motor on the fit pushing 330 whp :|

Yeah its pretty cool, and built by Toda. :eek:

With the amount of R&D and aftermarket parts being produced and going into the K series as its impressive and being tranplantable like it is, the power gap between the K20 and F20 is becoming smaller, but in saying that, the figures of the ASM's engine, it is a superior engine, made for a particular application.

Back to the thread hey, looking forward to seeing the build progress. :thumbsup:

[Benson]

just out of interest,
J's racing k24 build motor on the fit pushing 330 whp :|

Thats it!!

Yeh at the track you're not spending at 8000rpm all the time, you'll spend most of the time between 5000-8000rpm throughout the track

[fatboyz39]

Yeah its pretty cool, and built by Toda. :eek:



Toda Japan your assuming? J racing k24 very impressive.

[Slaz]

Thats it!!

Yeh at the track you're not spending at 8000rpm all the time, you'll spend most of the time between 5000-8000rpm throughout the track

Great but think if you could be at 5-9000 all the time, have a think, your arguement is based on bang for buck or the love of a K24 opposed to an application and the mechanics behind it.

Cant wait to see this new motor you got coming for Super sprints this year, should be a weapon. ;)


Toda Japan your assuming? J racing k24 very impressive.

Im not assuming i know, where else would you think i was suggesting?

It's impressive no doubt, but thats what you get from a company that makes more money from supplying race engines then parts, not
copying shit from anyone they can and have it made in Taiwan to make a dollar.

The amount of parts that have actually been prodcued but not released to the public would blow you away, but due to the reason above, why would you let your money and time on R&D go out the window, as that's what happens when the parts are made available to the public.

But hey, each to their own.................

[040501912]

parts go to public...
CHINA COPY IT lolz!!!!!!..... aniway The build and the owner of the engine it self wouldnt spread around or even sell what parts they are using or the tune of the engine..

competition is always there.. if you are the fastest and best in the class u wouldnt want somebody chasing you back by using the same set up.

[Slaz]

Hence the word lease engines my friend, the R&D of the parts fitted, the parts themselves and the tune are all owned by the engine supplier.

The likes of J's, ASM ect, do not touch the engine, it isnt theirs to touch, only use.

I just like the comment as the BYP boys seem to get funny when the word Toda is mentioned.

Yet their new engine has a few of their parts fitted....well so ive heard.;)

[Benson]

Hence the word lease engines my friend, the R&D of the parts fitted, the parts themselves and the tune are all owned by the engine supplier.

The likes of J's, ASM ect, do not touch the engine, it isnt theirs to touch, only use.

I just like the comment as the BYP boys seem to get funny when the word Toda is mentioned.

Yet their new engine has a few of their parts fitted....well so ive heard.;)

I got nothing against Toda Japan Products. There are great products.. Yes we are using some Toda products, but not all of their line of products to build a motor. Its a combo of parts which makes it work well. K20a.org has alot of combo build which can be very helpful when building your motor.

The k-series build wont be in action till the end of this year. The B18c will be enough for this season. Like our B16a, the aim is mid range torque, and as you can see, the b16a used last session was built around that idea and the result were decent lap-times

At any track, you want mid-range torque and pull out of a corner. To high in the rpm and you'll wheelspin out of the corner. With the use of bigger displacement, you can use a higher gear and use the torque of the engine to pull the car through the corner. Thats where you'll yeild good lap times. The same principle can apply to drag racing :)

[delsol9000rpms]

I just like the comment as the BYP boys seem to get funny when the word Toda is mentioned.

Yet their new engine has a few of their parts fitted....well so ive heard.;)

LOL:thumbsup:

so true ahaha... cmon guys keep on topic!

[mattyd]

i love the js racing k24 jazz.. its a weapon!

Correct though Benson, when building an engine you have to put thought into where you want your power to come on strong ie no point making your engine spin to 10,000rpm if you intake mani can only make increasing power up till 8700rpm.

There are so many factors in building a race tough engine, and sometimes is more than just grabbing parts of the shelf and assembling. Rod and crank ratios, piston speed etc are the factors that will set the displacement and also set the longeivity of the bottom end.. engineering is an exact science for that reason.. i personally have no idea on exact measurements, but i do have an engine builder that i trust.
Someone like him will need to be consulted before mixing and matching parts imo
And I will be the first to suggest again to Bradb16a to get as much information on everything, you can never have too much, and find yourself a good reputable engine builder/ machinist... even if it does cost more than the parts, you need them all connected and installed correctly, tolerences checked double checked and then before being put back together triple checked..... and then checked again.

The good thing about TODA lease engines is.. they come to you assembled, all calculated and reliable... bolt it in and you are ready armed with 330whp.. but they also cost mega and try getting one for a street car lol

In other good news for me.. though, my dry sump is here! after waiting 6 months and being stung with customs duty up the wall... stay tuned, will be a tread up soon.

[fatboyz39]

In other good news for me.. though, my dry sump is here! after waiting 6 months and being stung with customs duty up the wall... stay tuned, will be a tread up soon.

Oh my, post some pics up!!

[fatboyz39]

Yet their new engine has a few of their parts fitted....well so ive heard.;)


You heard wrong. Love how news spreads. No toda parts in the new motor. All USDM!!! ;)

[mattyd]

Oh my, post some pics up!!


sorry to hijack.. its being delivered today, will post up monday night/ tuesday.

See Bradb16a USA parts are highly regarded!

[Slaz]

You heard wrong. Love how news spreads. No toda parts in the new motor. All USDM!!! ;)

I think Benny already put you in it Jimmy, so stock oil pump in that beast hey?

Like ive said earlier, im really looking forward to the performance and results of it, and take that as it is, im not being sarcastic like you might assume.

Im not even going to comment on Mattyd's post about lease race engines, why wouldnt they cost a fortune when they are the pinnicle of thier kind and back up by a company involved in F1 parts, assembly and tuning, being consulted by and working along side mugen themselves.

Also, if you plan on having power available to 10,000 opposed to 8,000 you make changes to suit your powerband, not assume that 8,000 in a given config is good enough, but i tried explaining this earlier with not much benefit.

How many other engines/workshops can claim what they can in Japenese racing?

What they have done with the ASM car so far has all been achieved with off the shelf parts engine wise, anyone can buy them, this year they will be going further for the NA title for the 6th year in a row, something no other workshop, parts, engine supplier has achieved.

That experience and knowledge comes at a cost...........but it and they, get the results, that is what i respect, the effort and engineering behind it seeing i come from an engineering/mechanicial background, your always like i said earlier going to have your copied bang for buck parts, but IMO, sometimes on certain items, worth paying the extra.

But, thats my opinion.

[delsol9000rpms]

I think Benny already put you in it Jimmy, so stock oil pump in that beast hey?

Like ive said earlier, im really looking forward to the performance and results of it, and take that as it is, im not being sarcastic like you might assume.

Im not even going to comment on Mattyd's post about lease race engines, why wouldnt they cost a fortune when they are the pinnicle of thier kind and back up by a company involved in F1 parts, assembly and tuning, being consulted by and working along side mugen themselves.

Also, if you plan on having power available to 10,000 opposed to 8,000 you make changes to suit your powerband, not assume that 8,000 in a given config is good enough, but i tried explaining this earlier with not much benefit.

How many other engines/workshops can claim what they can in Japenese racing?

What they have done with the ASM car so far has all been achieved with off the shelf parts engine wise, anyone can buy them, this year they will be going further for the NA title for the 6th year in a row, something no other workshop, parts, engine supplier has achieved.

That experience and knowledge comes at a cost...........but it and they, get the results, that is what i respect, the effort and engineering behind it seeing i come from an engineering/mechanicial background, your always like i said earlier going to have your copied bang for buck parts, but IMO, sometimes on certain items, worth paying the extra.

But, thats my opinion.

quoted for truth well said

[mattyd]

awesome post slaz. I completely agree. And you are right, i have found out a lot about the k20 since doing my build, and its still being a costly way along