Can you dudes make a CRX handle predictably?

[JohnCRX]

Had a run at Oran Park GP yesterday and my 89 CRX (B16) did a very nervous 1.36 on 205 Azenis tyres.
To be quite frank it wasn't enjoyable but scary as there is a lot of weird stuff happening with the handling response when negotiating the twisty bits.
I know the suspension is not stiff enough as yet with just Konis up front on shortened std springs.
What spring rates do you guys use? Must I get coil-overs or will Konis F&R plus lowered springs be OK? as I just bought new Konis for front.
My sway bars are 21/17 so they should be reasonably OK????
Was it McChook who recommended the increased caster rod length, cause I'm not sure it's a good thing as my car is just too darty at the moment on initial turn-in with that mod.
The car seems to lean a little when I turn but then instantly oversteer, so .... what I done wrong????? :confused:
On a sweeping corner it grips OK. It's just the turn-in that is not progressive.

[Mateoo]

mmmm
short wheel base cars ie, crx are easy to spin!

i dunno if im right but what ur describing and in a long sweeping corner it grips then you have another corner opposite direction and it oversteers
im thinking its lift off oversteer?

im thinking you need some really stiff suspension + braces and wider tyres to keep the stability while cornering

[2ds]

205 is pretty wide for the car isn't it, i've got 205's on the front of my gen 3 at the moment and it wants to track all over the place.

don't use cut springs get some new ones, king springs are cheap if you don't want to spend much.

you're not taking your foot off the throttle through corners are you ?

-2ds

[LowEk]

ive got fulcrum coilovers in my civic and it handles well im going to get swaybars soon to make it handle better as i want my car to to be street/track car.

[McChook]

First thing
Buy a decent set of springs, not cut or shortened ones - this creates unpredictable rebound (and bound), whic will cause oversteer on some corner exits at Oran Park.
A set of whiteline 40mm springs will more than suffice
You do not need "coilovers". Just use Koni Yellows with the whiteline springs
Invest in as much of the whiteline gear you can afford, and allow Whiteline to install and set up the whole thing.

They have all the precise settings preset for EF/EG/EK civics through my old man's settings from the Bathurst car

[JohnCRX]

Hey McChook, can you help me with 2 queries?
1. I used your mod to increase the caster, now I'm wondering if that is part of my prob. Do you guys actually recommend and any of you use the increased caster?
The feel I'm getting is identical to lift off oversteer. Except I get it just by swinging from a Right hander straight into a Left hander, and vice versa without lifting off. It is just the change of direction, without the liftoff that gets me.
I think the 205 tyres are wide enough but I do agree with the need for stiffer springs.
2. Do we know the spring rates of the Whiteline 40mm set? They might just be the solution.
My car now has 340/220 lb/" springs.

I'm like most of us just wanting acceptable occasional track performance on a budget, not full race.

2ds
yes I take my foot off, but I do it way before the corner now I know how badly it behaves. I get to 160+ down the straight then brake to lose 1/2 of it just before the kink as it gets weird when I turn the steering wheel. Losing all the good speed gained just 'cos it won't handle!
If you are suggesting that I keep my foot into it through the corner then maybe that is a technique I could try. This FWD is all new to me.
Do you know what spring rate the Kings springs are?

[2ds]

2ds
yes I take my foot off, but I do it way before the corner now I know how badly it behaves. I get to 160+ down the straight then brake to lose 1/2 of it just before the kink as it gets weird when I turn the steering wheel. Losing all the good speed gained just 'cos it won't handle!
If you are suggesting that I keep my foot into it through the corner then maybe that is a technique I could try. This FWD is all new to me.
Do you know what spring rate the Kings springs are?

lol i'm a total racing noob but i know about throttle off drift =).

basically if you take your foot off the throttle during a corner weight shifts from the back of your car to the front. when this happens you loose grip at the back (less weight on the tyres = less grip) and your rear end will slide out. this is a bit elementary but i thought i'd go over it anyway. try to hold some power through the corner, not suggestiong you go through there flat stick but the car should be more predictable under power.


that being said i've never been on a track so i might be wrong / misunderstanding what you are asking. no idea about spring rates sorry, king springs are very budget, they are about $300 a set. you might be better off going with the whiteline ones that mc chook suggested

oh the other thing that comes to mind if you are running semi slicks on the front is that they will have more grip than the back and it may just break away under hard cornering, but it doesn't sound like you are going _that_ fast.

-2ds

[SPEEDCORE]

So sweeping it grips to your satisfaction but on tight twisty stuff it seems a bit darty and the rear seems to come around a bit?

If this is what you are getting have you tried to step on the gas a bit earlier to get the car to pull out of the corner and with the power going to the front wheels it *should* pull the car out of that tendancy to bring the tail around.

Yep like what people have said, it sounds like you should sort out your suspension setup first...

BTW another thing that has not been mentioned and can have this kind of effect is the tyre pressures.

What tyre pressures are you running front and rear?

[bigteethygrin]

if you drilled your castor rods then maybe it would be worth trying them at the original setting and then at the new setting to compare the two on the same track..

From what i remember of chooks castor mod.. I'm pretty sure its meant to make your car more pointy.. If you find it is too much you may be able to make minor adjustments. I dont know about CRX's.. there may be shims you can add or remove to slightly adjust the castor.. otherwise maybe purchase a castor/camber kit

[panda[cRx]]

i'm with speedcore and 2ds, accel thru the turns....
get your susp sorted out

[JohnCRX]

SPEEDCORE
you got the idea, sweeps OK, twisty not OK.
Tried 35/30psi then 45/40psi with Azenis tyres, still same.
The caster rods have been shortened 10mm; Whiteline seem to suggest that you can't have too much +ve caster.

Kinda feels like the car gets a lean on it which causes it to wind up and slingshots it into a faster than expected turn. ("overtsteer")

Front toe is 1mm out, rear is 2mm in, camber about -1 degree F&R.

As far as I can tell, the only really wrong spec is the springs are too soft.
And more than likely the driver can't cope with FWD!!!!
See what happens with new springs and Konis on the rear.

[bigteethygrin]

Whiteline seem to suggest that you can't have too much +ve caster.




I've heard that from whiteline too..

Sounds like advice that can be taken the wrong way.. maybe they really should reserve that opinion incase niave ppl like myself do some serious damage :D

[sivic]

your toe angles are wrong as well. you prob dont need any toe in front but your rears should be toed OUT not in. having them in will exert more lateral force on the tyres and cause it to "wind up" and hence be unpredictable. if you keep backing off the throttle too much in the tight sections you will lose the back as well.
as stated, get as much whiteline lateral suspension gear as possible.they can recommend exact specs. and with your shocks, get adjustable ones (koni yellow, KYB AGX....) and set the rears a bit harder than the front. but right now your springs will be the main issue. nothing wrong with the car being darty, just dont turn in as hard :)

[J_Mech]

I agree, the toe values seem a little strange, the rears in particular. I can see why they are like that - it may have been put like that to try and correct the oversteer nature that you are having. Basically whats going on is the rear end is fairly stable with the current toe, but once there is more loading and the chance to break traction, say by doing tighter corners, quick changes, then it will break very quickly, almost unpredictably. I would start with 0mm toe on both front and rear.

The balance just seems to much oversteer, if its during direction changes (transient) then play around with the dampers, stiffer front damping. If its generally present everywhere then stiffer front roll stiffness (springs or anti-roll bar). Alternatively if you thing the car is stiff enough, the reduce these values at the back.

The statement that you can never have too much castor isnt really that dangerous, as the limit in production cars is still fairly small without doing some heavy modifications. Once you start getting to 6-8 degrees, it might be considered enough, but by no means too much, theres race cars out there that have been succesfully run with 35 degrees castor. The limiting factor is probably steering force due to increase in castor, which again needs some mods to take care of.

J_Mech

[SPEEDCORE]

I'll assume you are running semi-slicks front and back?

To me, tyre pressures in the 45's are too much man... remembering that the sidewalls are stiffer in semi-slick tyres you can run lower presssures with greater efficiency (READ: better contact patch).

Have you tried pressures in the high 20s? Also the difference in the front and back pressures you are using indicates to me that you have actually tried to compensate for the suspension oversteering a bit through use of higher at front and lower at back.... good to see you doing this..... bad that it is not working for you. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Also pressures for the track temperature is important.
Once you can get a feel for a pressure range that works well with your specific tyres and car, go to the lower pressures that work for you on colder days, and higher pressures in that range for warmer track temps.

This stumps alot of people with the logic behind what I have just said but do a search (maybe not on OH cause I think the topic has not been covered b4) and you will see the theory behind it. Its better than me trying to explain it but its got to do with movement/squirm of the tread at different pressures and the potential to genrate heat or resist excessive build up of heat.

;) :thumbsup:

[JohnCRX]

Thanks for the input guys.
On the toe angles, the front measures 1mm in or 1mm out depending on what day I check it.
And the rears about 1 - 2mm in, which is what the handbook say s for my car.
Oh and PS: no one has set my car to overcome handling issues as it has never been to a workshop. I tinker on it solely.
Whiteline publish that they use toe out to liven the rear end, something I already got loads of.
Reckon I could live with trying to set both to zero though.

Oh and the car hasn't broke traction, just very darty.
The tyres are new Azenis TR215 205/50x15, which you could call semi-slicks, but are actually road tyres with tread wear indicators, made for supersprints. They are satisfactory in the sticky department.

I'm a bit in favour of low pressures as well as I like the tyre to conform to the road surface, rather than run down the centre stip of an overinflated tyre.

What do you guys think of 340/220 spring rates (result of cutting stock springs)?
Inquired into Kings and their heavy duty are even softer than what I have now.
I wonder are Whitline any stiffer? They quote 20-35% higher than stock on their web site. Don't think this is much harder than mine now.
Probably don't come any harder do they as they will be too short for the Konis? That why people go for coil-overs with adjustable heights?

Anyway, I just looked at the lower control arms and I think most of the bushes are cracked, so.....duh....that ain't going to help control.

What you guys said about not turning in as far, and maybe using power in might be a technique that will need to be learnt to master the little beast.

Can anyone quote me some spring rates and manufacturer to suit my new Konis?

[sivic]

dont get too hung up on spring rates dude. most brands only do 2-3 diff rates anyway and are usually addressesd as sport, touring etc.
get in touch with whiteline as they could recommend something to suit your needs as they seem to know their stuff. as far as kings go, they aren't what i would call soft. i have sport low springs (40mm drop) and they are plenty firm enough. you dont want them too hard or you will start to slide. hardness largely comes down to your shocks anyway.
either way, dont even consider chopped/ compressed factory springs :thumbdwn: