reducing understeer on the cheap

[redefine]

i tried searching but couldnt find anything.

i've been thinking about ways to reduce understeer on my ek (stock sussy) and come up with a few things

1. front splitter
2. rear strut
3. rear sway/subframe brace

i'm not sure what to do. i'm on a pretty small budget, say <400, and the less i spend the better, but i want it to actualy do something, and dont want to go full ghetto and do something which will break in a week, or damage something else/be dangerous. so i guess its a tradeoff between cheap and performance.

[T-onedc2]

Definitely go something like an EK9 rear sway bar with an ASR reinforcement kit.

If it's too expensive then save up a bit more, maybe $500-$600 max

Splitter only becomes effective at speed, strut is a great mod for aiding rear predictability, not reducing understeer.

[string]

Very cheap mods:

Increase front track width with spacers.
Remove front sway-bar.
Add rear-toe out

[redefine]

hmmm, the ek9/asr is looking good if i can wait for a little more cash, do i have to do lca's at the same time, or is that optional? all of the ek's i've seen with sways and subrame reinforcements have aftermarket lca's aswell.

string: the ek1 has no stock sways, i cant take the front out if its not there.

also, dosent toe negatively effect tyre wear more then other aspects, like camber etc.? how much toe out would you be looking at for a decent increase in oversteer bias, and how much would that effect tyre wear?

[kaotic]

Lcas are an option... more bling than anything:D

Any sway bar around the 20-24mm mark should be good enough... also with an asr or some form of subframe reinforcement...

If you have a CXI then you will have no sway bars at all... GLI has a front sway bar

[nd55]

> 1. front splitter
> 2. rear strut

These and LCA's will do nothing at all.

As mentioned the ITR 22mm rear bar/ASR brace is the hot combination.

If you can source the swaybars off a VTi-R (22mm front, 14mm IIRC) from someone who is upgrading would be a good choice on a budget.

> the ek1 has no stock sways,
A GLi is an EK1 and has a 22mm front.
A front off a GLi and a VTi-r 14mm rear, too. Any combination to save some cash.

Get the brackets and end links too. They are suprisingly expensive.
A new set of sway bar bushes won't go astray either.

If you're going to a wrecker to source the bits ask them to show you a similar era CR-V front sway bar.

You won't need the rear subframe brace with the 14mm rear sway bar.
A few flat washers to spread the load on the sway bar mount bolts might be cheap insurance.

Next step would be to dial in some negative camber.

> dosent toe negatively effect tyre wear more then other aspects,
Yes.
Wurry about toe last.

You probably don't want to use toe to compensate for other aspects of your layout.

> how much toe out would you be looking at for a decent increase in oversteer bias, and how much would that effect tyre wear?

As far as wear goes, the problem with toe is that the wear is confined to a a narrow strip on the inside edge of the tyre.
In extreme cases the rest of the tyre might be fine, whilst the inside edge is bald.

From memory 4mm toe out chewed front tyres in less than 10K km's.

I think factory recommends closer to 1mm.


Nick.

[redefine]

my bad, i couldnt find anything that said they had sways, anyway, i have a cxi = no sways.

thanks for the advice.

are the same era crv sways interchangable with the ek? i'll prob be going wrecker or at least second hand

i was thinking not worrying about the front as my cxi already understeers at anything, so considering that, would the 22mm from the itr put too much bias toward oversteer? the 14mm rear is looking good atm.

> From memory 4mm toe out chewed front tyres in less than 10K km's.

not using toe then!

[dasicvtec]

Cheapest way to encourage more oversteer for $0 is bump up rear tyre pressure and lower front.

Front would be 34, Rear would be 36 (if not enough go to 38)

[JohnL]

As per String's suggestion, remove the front anti roll bar. Understeer will definitely be significantly less, body roll will increase, but a lot less than you might think (my CB7 has the front ARB removed).

IMO a rear tower brace will help reduce understeer and increase steering and handling response (but not if the brace is not very stiff), as will higher rear and lower front tyre pressures as per davsicvtec's suggestion.

Basically, increasing the stiffness of any part of the chassis or suspension will tend to increase steering and handling response. However, stiffening the front suspension and / or body will also tend to increase understeer (after it's turned in nicely), as will softening anything in the rear of the car (chassis or suspension). Increasing rear stiffness (chassis or suspension) will tend to decrease understeer as well as sharpen up steering and handling.

A splitter is a waste of time unless it's scraping the ground and your planning on driving at "do not collect $200" speeds.

Chassis tuning is the art of balancing trade offs in one way or another.

[55EXX]

remove front sway
rear toe to around -1mm total not too much to cause terrible wear (0 front)

increase front tyre patch/decrease rear so:
rear tyre pressure ^
front pressure lower ^front grip

wider front track

raise your rear sussy up.

front castor kit and upper control arm swap (more so with turn in, reduces speed scrubbed off into corners from understeer)

for the money spent on a good rear brace not worth it unless you just get pipe welded between your 2 rear stut towers ;)

whiteline have a range of rear sway bar kits available that are quite effective a 18mm

[JohnL]

for the money spent on a good rear brace not worth it unless you just get pipe welded between your 2 rear stut towers

A rear tower brace is very worthwhile. My rear tower brace is simply a 30mm tube that has been flattened at each end, drilled with one hole each end and attached to one spring seat stud per side (slightly over-simplified description). Works very well.

[55EXX]

have you seen the quality of cheap aftermarket braces for eg/ek? not worth the metal it is made with!

[JohnL]

Why I made my own, and also I've never actually seen a rear tower brace for a CB7 other than my home made effort. From braces I have seen, it's usually the design / material of the end brackets that isn't rigid enough.

[redefine]

JohnL: thats awesome. i'm gonna see that.

anyway...thanks for the advice, i didnt realise there was so much you could do without spending money.

[vinnY]

so your rear tower bar is basically the same as the oem dc2r/ek9 rear tie bar but longer johnl?

clicky photo here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/umran/ek9subframe1.jpg)
borrowed from ek9.org (http://www.ek9.org/forum/suspension/4192-rear-subframe-brace.html)

[lenz]

reduce understeer? get better tyres onthe front

[JohnL]

so your rear tower bar is basically the same as the oem dc2r/ek9 rear tie bar but longer johnl?

clicky photo here (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/umran/ek9subframe1.jpg)
borrowed from ek9.org (http://www.ek9.org/forum/suspension/4192-rear-subframe-brace.html)

That brace is a rear subframe brace, not a tower brace. Tower braces are attached at the top of each 'strut' tower.

I've never used a subframe brace, but I have my doubts as to their likely efficacy because they are attached to and reinforce a chassis member (subrame) that is already very rigid in compression and tension, and the brace can't stiffen it in bend.

My rear tower brace is as described earlier, a simple straight tube flattenned and drilled with a single hole at each end and 'bolted' down to one strut stud per side. From memory the tube is 35mm OD with a 2mm wall, it wants to be stiff.

[JohnL]

reduce understeer? get better tyres onthe front

Also works for me.

[vinnY]

i was just using the images to illustrate the design johnl don't get me wrong, i knew exactly what you were talking about ;) just wanted to clarify your bar design with illustrations :)

[JohnL]

i didnt realise there was so much you could do without spending money.

Not all that much! I also made my front tower brace (works exceptionally well), and made my caster and camber angles adjustable for free. I do my own stringline alignments (that can save a lot of $ when you're messing around with suspension).

I've also fabricated a steering wheel adaptor to fit an aftermarket 350mm wheel that brings the wheel a good 50mm closer to the driver than stock (this is very worthwhile), and also has the cruise control buttons mounted correctly.

My latest free 'modification' is supremely simple but very effective. I always found my pedal pads to be a little too high off the floor, so have just 'installed' a 20mm thick (give or take) plywood footplate under the carpet mat to raise my feet. The pedals are now much more comfortable to use and heel / toe much easier...

[JohnL]

vinnY,
Just making sure we were on the same page...

[hisoka]

strip rear out.
get sway bar EK9/whiteline ek4 .
get subframe brace. asr
and if you can afford get a rear strut bar (JIC is good, cusco is good) and preload it on the suspension.
some whiteline or spoon springs on existing dampers is okai. dont get gay lowering springs. get proper performance springs most have minimal drop. but are okai to use with oem suspension.

with the money issue, just keep saving. do get suspension springs first but.

and dont be afraid to buy parts second hand especially strut bars and sway bars. most good jap imort wreckers have it. tonnes on this site aswell.

this will probably cost double ure budget second hand. but if you gonna do it, do it right the first time.

[55EXX]

I've also fabricated a steering wheel adaptor to fit an aftermarket 350mm wheel that brings the wheel a good 50mm closer to the driver than stock (this is very worthwhile)

how worthwhile? tell me more please. i've always wondered. my laid back position in my bucket seats means i reach forward quite far and have contemplated something like this.

[redefine]

on the people saying fork out for the good stuff...no

i'm not spending money untill i start working and can get a track car, then i'll spend the big bucks. (i was thinking either FC rx7, or DC2)

i'm doing this for fun, but i am on a tight budget (esp since work has cut down after christmas), and dont need brand name 20 something mm sways and expensive struts etc, esp when i can fab a strut out of a steel bar, and do small things, like tyre pressures (that changed alot, i should really look into diy car balancing and stuff).

besides, the cheaper i can do stuff, the more i can fiddle (worrying less about breakage), which means the more i learn for when i do wanna get serious.

[JohnL]

how worthwhile? tell me more please. i've always wondered. my laid back position in my bucket seats means i reach forward quite far and have contemplated something like this.

You have a PM

[55EXX]

;)

ebay 6.2cm (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FLYING-QUICK-RELEASE-STEERING-WHEEL-SPACER-BOSS-HUB-KIT_W0QQitemZ300289668643QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car _Parts_Accessories?hash=item300289668643&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66&#37;3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

ebay 2 " (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FLYING-2-ADJUSTABLE-STEERING-WHEEL-SPACER-BOSS-HUB-KIT_W0QQitemZ300288549755QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car _Parts_Accessories?hash=item300288549755&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

[JohnL]

55EXX,
another PM.

You might want to post this up as a separate thread, its wildly off topic, even for me.

[55EXX]

Is this the end of my car modding days? Buying a house says so.

just realised i'm dreaming at the moment

[dahon]

cheap handling stuff?
easy dood... better front tyres as lenz said & a em1/ek4 rear sway bar. (no subframe brace needed as its OEM)
all in all stock sway would cost 50bux max with mounting brackets & around 100 for a pair of new endlinks. check if your car has rear sway bar holes in the rear lower lcas.. if not then u might be able to find some at a wrecker or on this forum. same with the rsb & the endlinks. much cheaper in comparisson to a 22mm (CTR since u got an ek) rsb with a asr brace which would fetch around 450+

tyres dont skimp on.. find a good deal but the best tyres will always be a hefty price compared to cheapo ones but you will see a noticable handling difference. im not sure about this but im guessing slightly fatter tyres (195-205 width) would also help cornering..?

strut braces i would recommend you add later on once youve installed the rsb.

good luck with it buddy!

[JohnL]

tyres dont skimp on.. find a good deal but the best tyres will always be a hefty price compared to cheapo ones but you will see a noticable handling difference.

I picked up BF Goodrich G-Force Sport in 195/60/15 at Jax (Port Maquarie) for $131 each. Best value tyres I've ever had...

[gerard]

In the old days, I used to slot the top of the strut towers mounts so that I can mount the struts inboard and so dial up some negative camber. Nowadays, camber pins are just as good

[dahon]

I picked up BF Goodrich G-Force Sport in 195/60/15 at Jax (Port Maquarie) for $131 each. Best value tyres I've ever had...

whoa nice!
i definately also look for the branded tyres... BF goodrich, bridgestone, continentals...
i managed to pickup 205/50/r15 bridgestone potenza g3s earlier last year for 150 a pair.. and also a pair of continental sport contacts for 80... very noticable handling difference and im very happy with them. also i have noticed that they dont wear as much/quickly as other cheaper tyres..

[JohnL]

I had some Continental EcoContact3s and was dissapointed.

EcoContact3s aren't really a performance tyre, so I wasn't expecting super sharp steering / handling (though they were reasonable and had good grip), but since they aren't a performance tyre I at least expected them to last a reasonable amount of time, and they wore quite quickly.

[dahon]

yeah ive heard of some continentals wearing pretty quickly, soft tyre compounds up to the australian road standards maybe? my sport contacts havent worn much the year ive had them for... so im pretty pleased with them, especially for the 80 i paid for em (fitted & balanced aswell)
used to own a pair of michelins on my rears... they were shocking, always caused me intense understeer, sometimes would squeel out of corners & round abouts even if i was taking them at a normal speed (20-30kph)... replaced the fronts with some goodyear ducaros but it didnt help that much...
now im running the bridgestones up front and the continentals at the back.. for one year of driving even wear and not much has been worn.. plus the handling improvements are great =)