CAM install gone bad. Help with rocker assembly.

[Weq]

Ive posted this another forum but imnot having much luck. Need help from the experienced peeps.

Ok guys, here is what happened. In short i installed the new Zex 59300 (my first time) and i ****ed up because i didnt loosing the lash on the rocker clearance before bolting down the rocker assembly again. Alas i cracked and destroyed my old 1! Now i am trying to source another assembly for my d16y1 and i have got a mate who had a complete y8 head - which i took the assembly off. Basically i posted this on another forum and was told it would be an OK swap as the VTEC assemblys are the same, but was then told that it wouldnt work at all, and the rocker arms are totally different. Seeing as though i could get my hands on it and use it if i needed, i grabbed the y8 assembly anyways and test fitted it up. i firstly tested fitting my y1 assembly to the y8 head, and then the y8 assembly to the y1 head.

The rocker arms look like they are fine to me in comparison with the old ones, and like up perfectly with the guides.. the only real difference i could see were a couple of moulding shapes on the allominium and the LMA up top. I finger tightend all the bolts and what i ended up with is as follows. My concerns are:
1) the valve lash clearance. i have pictured below 2 lash's are completly backed out and currently have almost 0 room to more before they put pressure on the springs. ATM the head is at TDC. Is this normal? The cam is a Stage 2 Zex (59300). i know u have to rotate the engine to set the lash correctly, but i am not sure if this is ok to torque down if they are already touching! because i ****ed up my old assembly like this last time (accept i didnt ajust any lash and just torqued it down - new cam remmber - and the pressure on the rockers crasked the asembly. OPINIONS?? this is my main concern!!

2) lost motion assembly. this is the main function difference i can see. the old ones in my y1 head did not have the retaining housing that these do.

Basically i need opinions before i torque these down, please help!

http://users.bigpond.net.au/weq/old1.jpg
OLD
VS
NEW
http://users.bigpond.net.au/weq/all.jpg

http://users.bigpond.net.au/weq/oilsquit.jpg
Oil squiters. noticly different housing, although actuating the same way

http://users.bigpond.net.au/weq/clearance.jpg
This is the clearance issue i was talking about. is it normal to have pressure on the valve when torqing the assembly down - it will ass about 1mm worth of pressure before its secure.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/weq/clearance3.jpg
Gap left before flush. Its finger tight atm.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/weq/dizzy.jpg
Im keeping an eye on this gap. if it doesnt close up when torqued, i wont use it

Can anyone see why this wont work? thoughts on the clearance issue? adivce in general? I am awaiting replys before i torque everything down and test out how the engine spins by turning the crank and and adjusting the valves. Is there supposed to be pressure on the valves when bolting the assembly down (i would think so?? cam lobes??)

Thanks heeps guys!

[DynoDave]

Have you tired to install the STD cam again with these rockers that way you will know if the base circle is bigger on your new cam.If not do that before you go any further other wise you will only do more damage.
Regards Dyno Dave

[ECU-MAN]

I am very hesitant to reply coz I nor OH want to be responsible for information leading to you doing more damage.

with what I tell you now only use it to make up your mind. dont take it for granted as I have never been in this situation. mainly just a guide.

with the CAM CYL 1 TDC ( #4 rocking ) all roccers for CYL 1 should be loose or be able to be loosened and backed right off, then either the IN or EX roccars in CYL 2 should also be the same. ( I cant remember if it will be IN or EX right now but it will only be one side) say its EX for CYL 2 then CYL 3 should have IN loose, and all roccas on CYL 4 should be tight. with CYL 4 TDC it would be opposite, Like Dyno Dave says with the tappet backed right off compare it with the STD CAM. 1mm travel backed off wont be bad only if when the CYL is at TDC there is you can back all 4 tappets right off.

that gap will go away when you tention up the cam holders. also did you tention up the cam holders like the manual said ???? I would slowly do them up bit by bit in order till the cam holders are all flush then tention then down, you will know when its flush because as you tighten the bolts you should feel the cam holders statrting to push on the valve compressing the springsand then it will come to a stop. keep an eye out for anything locking up. if it gets tight and your gap is still there the cam holder assy may not be acceptable or something is not square. with the cam gear nipped up check all roccas for the correct pattern above with CLY1 TDC. if all looks ok tention the cam holder assy. fit you belt, take all your spark plugs out, slowly rotate your engine counter clokwise 45 deg and check CYL3 roccas, they all should be looos then turn crank another 45, CYL4 should be loose, then a final 45 will make CYL2 loose. do the same again and set the tappets,

I hope you understand what Im on about as sometimes its hard to put whats in my mind in writing.

use this information at your own risk.

[Weq]

atm all other rockers are able to be loosed easily for enough clearance (plenty of play, no pressure on valves). the only problem is CYL #2 EX, which are backed right out is if i torque them down (in correct sequence) it will apply pressure to the valve. about 1mm's worth. Everything is just barely finger tight atm, it cam down without any hassels once all tappets were loosened. As for the cam dimensions, this cam has been used successfully in Y8 heads before. The base circle is actually a little smaller then stock, but the lobes are larger and have a steep ramp. thanks for the help fellas.

[ECU-MAN]

should be ok, as long as CYL2 @ TDC you can back of all the tapetts. 1mm wont hurn when tentioning down the cam holders. when your timming belt is on, remove your plugs and turn your engine over, make sure she turns over smoothly. get CYL2 TDC, make sure that the tappets are backed off. go back to #1 TDC , adjust your tappets. Im concerned about valve lift and valves hitting pistons, thats why I say turn it over slowly, look for a smooth rotation.

[Weq]

yes i know exactly what u mean. how far usually do rockers actuate the valves into the head? i would assume alot less then bottoming out any springs.. is there a spring coil clearance i can check?

[Weq]

im in 2 states of mind atm.

1) should i continue and possibly have my car up and running tonight? but runt he risk of the ratio of the rocker arms being different, and bending++ some valves?
2) ive sourced atleast 1 z6 rocker assembly from the US. it will take possibly till next week to come in though... Man spares are easy to come buy over there, no one even wants to know me if im looking for just a head, let alot a rocker assembly. 115US will grab me a perfect condition head... damn.

edit:

overnight i was checking out online honda spare parts places and comparing model number on the y8 & z6 valvetrains. basically the z6 uses a combination of y8 parts & its own. the LMA is different (as i gathered from the pics) and the rocker arms are different models. The weird thing is, of the 2 hrydric rocker rails, the intake is different, but the exhaust side is the same across models. things like adjusting screws are the same, as well as dowles and bolts.... i think i will wait for the z6 assemblys to come in though, because i am not sure if the assembly will effect my timing?

[Weq]

ok ive been reading up on cam caps, and it looks like im screwed.
the caps are line honed to journels when the head is made, so anything from another head has a very good chance of not being round and causing the cam to bind/2 much play...

[Weq]

just some more thought. if i was to grab the cam caps another y1 and give my curernt ones (some are cracked down the sides) to a machine shop, could they match the bores up that way? without taking the head off and sending it all away.

[wynode]

Looks like a lot of trouble here Johnny.........have you contemplated just changing the head? (maybe even a D16A8 head!)..........I think ben might still have his :)

[Weq]

If i change the head, my cam is useless and this exersice has been for nothing.. atm i cant source a y1 head only a y8..

this stuff happens sometimes, part of the game.. defaintly given me a big wakeup call.

[MRJDM]

so whats the next step??

[Weq]

just talked with a machine shop, looks like they can only hone the surfaces with the entire head. they also told me to torque the next assembly down and see if it spins, in which case i got lucky. sp yeah, waiting a new assembly from oversea's.

[MRJDM]

shit dude. that means ur car i gonna b off the road for a while

[Weq]

yeah couple of weeks atleast... got uni shit atm, wrong time for this stuff :)
of course i could book her into the mechanic and pay through the nose... and it may come to that later :)

new rocker assembly on its way from the US. early next week arrival.. my latest idea is as such:
My old assembly basically broke 1 or 2 cam caps + misc bits. Im going to make a hyrbid assembly and hopefully i'll get lucky mixing a few cam caps of the new one.. i'll get a mechanic friend to take a look over it and if it works well i'll be happy.

alternatlivly im gonna pull the head and get the new assembly honed. at the same time i may look at skimming the head a little for some more comp (always a fan of high comp turbo :P) grab some arps and a stockie gasket. All depends on what the cash flow is like i guess!

thanks for all the help guys. sugesstions still appreciated :)

[HRV-80Y]

awww no bro...so no turbo civic's @ cruises no more til couple weeks...

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