B16A2 Turbo Technicalities

[**Ghost**]

Hey guys... i'm still building that turbo kit and i need some help

1. Turbo

- I have had many suggestions but the popularity and the manifold availability of the T3/T4 hybrid finally persuaded me to choose that over the T25. Question is, is this the right choice? Additionally i'm a BIT confused over Mitsubishi turbos...si the tdo4 (off GSR Lancer) the same thing as a T3?

2. Manifold

- Main question whether a T3 manifold suits ALL t3/t4 hybrids and whether the manifold is different for tdo4s

3. ECU + Tuning

- I'm currently looking at the VAFC2 + 450cc Injectors to compensate fo rboost... has neone tried "chips" like turbo edit/uberdata and knows and knows whether this cheap option is reliable?

thanks guys... i'm almost there

[poid]

the lancer GSR is a tiny, tiny little turbo...no way would i use it. Personally i'd go for a GT series Garrett, much better turbos than the T3/T4's.

The VAFC is a very crude method of tuning, it advances timing under boost. Go for uberdata, i use it and as far as i'm concerned it does everything you need it to do and is reliable.

[BLKCRX]

Your turbo should match your setup.... if only ever will run low boost then buy a turbo for that application. I see everyone buy a cheap turbo setup... there engine goes BANg... then they build there engine and then want a new larger turbo to make more power.... plan ahead and save money. Reality is your engine can go BANG.

Same as manifold design, there’s cheap ones and expensive ones, generally the more expensive the more power they make, the faster they spool the turbo and the less chance they have of breaking. With regards to flanges any t3 exhaust housing will fit any t3 flange manifold, regardless if it’s a t3 t3/t4 or GT30 etc etc, what you have to watch is turbo to block clearance. Buy a manifold used by everyone else in the world, once you do some research you will be very familiar with words like, drag, SPF, Max Rev, Full Race FMax etc. buyin a manifold is like buying good shoes, go with a “name” brand.


Engine management go with a “name” brand n look ahead to who your going 2 use 2 tune your car…..any ECU is only as good as the person tuning it. I would most defiantly stay clear of AFC hacks thow….- Don't forget about a larger fuel pump also... injector size makes no difference what so eva as long as your ECU can control them, go larger rather than smaller. I would tend 2 go for 600+CC injectors, don't believe the internet myth just because you have large injector you use more fuel or have a shit idle......what rubbish…...
Fuel economy doesn’t change if your using stock or 1500cc injectors if you control em correctly.

hint = don't cut corners, turbo'ing a Honda costs lots of $ expect unexpected bills and labour.

Regards James

[**Ghost**]

Thanks Guys!! : )

James- Ne Tips on how to make my engine NOT go bang besides from driving really really softly whilst on stock internals?

I would have thought that running 6-8psi, with injectors, upgradedfuel/oil pumps, FMIC, and either VAFC or Uberdata/Turboedit would be sufficient to keep my engine safe?

Poid, do u know neone in Melbourne who install the Uberdata thingie for me? i know i dont even wanna TRY it myself after reading the instructions. And isnt my car (ek4 1996) equipped with a Obd2? do i need the obd1 plug to install uberdata?

Thanks all in advance!

[poid]

you'll need a socketed OBD1 ECU (p28, p30, p72 etc) and an OBD2 -> OBD1 conversion harness. I'm not really sure of who does it in Melb, but i bought a chipped ECU from the US and then just used the software. Maybe have a chat with Andy? dunno if he has played with the Uber software

running lowish boost and having a decent tune will make for a reliable setup...James is right that the size of the injectors wont affect economy or idle. If its a low boost street car you dont strictly need a fuel pump either, but they are fairly cheap so you may as well get one

[BLKCRX]

Uberdata thingie for me? i know i dont even wanna TRY it myself after reading the instructions -

Go for a commercial ECU solution then. leave turning your car to experts who can tune. Tuning = Power and Reliability and Knowledge

Ultimately the more you invest in your set the more reliable power you will make.

Regards James

[**Ghost**]

I realise that cheap + reliable rarely if ever go hand in hand, but do i REALLY need MicroTech or Motec or Hondata for a 6-8 psi setup??? I've got my objective quite clearly in mind, i'm looking for a quick civic, hahahaha not giong to turn it into BLKCVC

So wot else is available and cheaper than the Big Boy Brands of ECU? Emanage any good?

Actually, can u guys please tell me whether mechanical tuning with FMU or advancing/retarding timing would work?

[BLKCRX]

7 psi even ZERO psi and incorrect tuning on any engine can make it go bang...
with forced induction your only add'in fuel to the fire....my only recommendation will be go mainstream ! if you value your engine you will choose the best you can afford, and get it tuned by the best you can afford.

As for this comment...

“Actually, can u guys please tell me whether mechanical tuning with FMU or advancing/retarding timing would work?”

hmm "HELL NO" you need to tune for ignition ! via a ECU not just mechanically moving back your dizzy, this would hinder performance to the max.

Honestly without lots of money reliability is very hard (more than $6000) How much do you plan on spending...

Regards James

[poid]

dude, dont use an FMU for any setup...they are shite

Weq seems to have some success with his e-manage. That is prolly gonna be the cheapest reasonable solution if no one near you is willing to tune Uberdata/Crome. Otherwise the cheapest mainstream ECU is gonna be a microtech, they are proven to work well.

Unless you are willing to learn to use the freely availble software yourself there isnt really any other option i would use other than a proper programmable ECU

[**Ghost**]

Thanks for the input... i'll check out microtech and emanage first then

My budget is wierd... i'm planning on spending around 2000 for the initial setup, and then more later for exhaust and clutch etc etc...

[BLKCRX]

with 2000$ to spend good luck....
Regards James

[CRX-Ando]

James aka BLKCRX knows his shit so heed his advice...Microtech is running my boosted B16A2 & once tuned optimally, should be running pretty good...Hondata is also recommended so budget for what you can afford & get someone knowledgeable to tune her...all the best with it mate...

[**Ghost**]

thanks guys... neone tune emanage in melbourne? i heard its hard to tune

also if i buy emanage, do i just need the mian unit? or do i need igntiion harness, etc etc as well

[imashy14u]

$2000 will only get you the turbo, manifold and if you're lucky, the fuel pump. Listen to what the other guys say, don't cut corners, you'll regret it later.

All the best with the conversion mate :thumbsup: If done right, you'll love it! :D

[**Ghost**]

really? I genuinely dont understand y u guys say its so expensive! : ) i mean i respect your opinoins and all cos obviously u have all done it before... but......

I mean i'm not going for a NEW turbo, nor am i going for high boost... i mean for around 3000 bucks i can get a full kit form Greddy... so 2000 for a not-as-good-as Greddy sounds reasonable to me... ?!!?

I dont know if u gusy have considered i'm going to stick religiously to 6psi... and my car is relatively new (120,000kms) and has not been driven hard...

Ah well... i'm going to try it... hope nothing blows up lol..

[TODA AU]

thanks guys... neone tune emanage in melbourne? i heard its hard to tune

also if i buy emanage, do i just need the mian unit? or do i need igntiion harness, etc etc as well

Regarding the E-manage,
You need more than just the main unit...
You'll need the main unit $550 + optional injection harness + optional ignition harness... Both aditional harnesses are at extra cost.
Alternativly, there is also a plug-in loom available with the ignition & fuel wiring already done... In fact we've probably got one in stock.
To tune it you need the support tool... It's very easy to use & tune.

Regarding your turbo kit...
Um... Good luck... I hope it works out for you...

[**Ghost**]

thanks for the reply guys

hahahaha all of u are scaring me now... i can see all of u's in the background holding fire extinguishers and wearing full anti-hazard suits waiting for my engine to blow : )

ah well, i'll keep asking around till i find some sort of satisfactory solution.

but seroiusly Imasy4u, $6000? for just manifold and turbo? i'm not getting a garret GT25R man... i'm still learning but i'm pretty sure Greddy Kits are reliable and complete and only go for arounmd 3000 for a B series

[TODA AU]

Greddy kits are reliable & relativly complete...
However, no offence but you're off in "Fairy land" as far as pricing goes...

US$3,149.00 list price is kinda more than the $3000 you seem to think the kit costs....
Do the maths... That's AU$4,245.95 at today's exchange rate...
Plus, at this point, the kit is still in the US...
Add airfreight & your taxes you're heading for over AU$5200
Bare in mind the kit is 280,000yen in Japan...
That's still $3500AU to have hold & own in Japan...
Add airfreight & your taxes you're heading for over AU$4500
Strangley... That's what the retail price is here in Aust...
Further, if you want a Greddy intercooler with one of these kits, that's extra too...
But then you'd know that had you actually been in contact with the local TRUST dealer...
Hmmm

[**Ghost**]

hahaha *owned* by Mr Toda : P

nah i was asking y everyone was saying 5-6k etc etc for ALL hondas when a Greddy for D-series come way way way cheaper?

sigh... i guess i have to give up smoking save some money... i was considering SSAUTOCHROME products, but drove to my fds house to look at his manifold **shivers*** no thanks

[Weq]

regarding he e-manage, if u go a kit, they come with the injector harness, and a 'pirate' ignition harness (3 wires on out dizzy'd 4cyl honda) will set u back another ~25. support tool is had for free, and a clone cable is had for ~50aud. reference: e-manage yahoo! e-group.

my advice, if u wanna go DIY or whatever, check out other ppls setups. honda-tech has 100's of turbo b's going round. see what setups people use and have sucess, and see what setups people are running who have blown/destroyed parts.

in the end though, b's demand more money then d's. my advice - swap out the B for a D, and turbo it :))

[**Ghost**]

lol... so [EOI] B16A? hahahahahhahahah

man turbo-ing is so so complicated...

[BLKCRX]

its not complicated you just need money, and lots of it ! period.

Regards James

[MRJDM]

mate what ive realise is you pay for what you get. save and spend the extra money to do it properly

[imashy14u]

Ghost, $6K is basically the price for a turbo setup that you install yourself, have someone do the exhaust and cooler piping and have an ECU installed and dyno tuned.

6psi may not sound like much, but without the right fuelling system and management it may mean you're engine will be gone in a month or two time.

Like what Toda said, the greddy kits are US$3K so it'll end up costing about the same as what we've said. But the greddy kit doesn't come with cooler and full exhaust (I think), just a dump pipe. And I think it only comes with a micro fueller not a progamable ECU (not too sure on this, sorry if I'm wrong :confused: ).

Like I said before, do it right the first time and you'll reap the benefits....do it worng and it'll end up costing more.

Sorry if I'm scaring you :D , just trying to help a fellow :honda: owner

[ian]

also related to this topic........
i've got a stock civic vtir coupe B16A2 (USDM).
i was looking at a GREDDY bolt-on turbo kit.
can this kit be just bolted on without any other modifications to the engine (apart from a new ECU)???
will it make a difference?

[pornstar]

yes they can be bolted on. ian if ur in sydney go to adrian norton at toda, bolting on a kit is easy, getting things to run is easy, getting things on and running well, and relioably is another story. U can spend 20k ona setup but still bnot run reliably, if u get the wrong thigns or go to the wrong places.

[**Ghost**]

i shoulda bought that s14 : ( ahhahaha

[luzinit]

if u look around on the net u can find the greddy kit for around 2300-2400 US. not sure how much that will be after shipping and whatever taxes may be involved tho, but yeh, the going price for them is a tad cheaper than the 3.1k listing price

[pornstar]

is that with cooler?

[Weq]

no greddy kits come with cooler or bov - thats the point of having a basic kit + your choice of addons. The b16 kits do some with injectors + emanage + more stuff then the d-series kits though. also a larger turbo. As for the tax's, its all about how u go for it. Seriously, check out this post i made back when i was researching a kit http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64&highlight=greddy+turbo+kit

I had exactly the same replys. exactly the same comments. i put mine together for under well under 3k imported. list price was 5k+ in most shops. 8months with perfect compression. Some say u cant, some say u can. I might of just got lucky, who knows!! It can be done though. (u wont pick up a b16 kit for this price, but u can pick one up for way cheaper then aus retail)

but whats a cooler worth these days? if ur gonna run ~8psi, go with a small side mount or something, ~100 ebay. Johnnyracecar.com coolers (mine) for for 180USD, $35 shipping via USPS on the 6-8week service, or $45 on the 4-10day. No other tax's.

Turbo kits in the US is a big buisness. they get ALOT of markup. SEARCH around, people are out there who sell for 500USD++ under retail. My kit is listed was listed as 1890 on the GReddy site, i picked it up for $1380USD.

Toda: im only going to single out ur post because this is what all shops said to me to (regarding 1k in duty&tax) I payed $90tax all up. I have reciepts, and no, it wasnt shipped as a gift or 2nd hand items. Shipping is cheapest with USPS. They split my kit into 2 lots, and i payed $270USD in total - 4-10day service.

Basically the point of my post is - no one here is going to tell u how the tricks of the trade work. I had a little help from friends, but most of the stuff i learnt from 8months of research - and they do exist. Not 100% buy the book, but does these days??

But quit quoting retail guys, seriously.

[pornstar]

only thing is tho weq, what are you going to tell the next person when he gets thigns caught in customs? or that by paying a couple hundred less usd, that the goods they paid for never got shipped, etc. One good story is great, but for every one good one, i can also say that theres one bad one. IF your the bad one, i guess the cheaper kit isnt worth it?

[Weq]

Yep sure. u risk something everytime u buy online. i tried covering my ass with the way i paid and the way i shipped. But if ur stuff gets lost, dont expect a refund anytime soon. As for customs, yeah its a gamble to come extent, but u an limit the damage so to speak in most situations.

I dont garentee anything, thats why i dont sell them :) , all i am saying is i had no experience or 'hookups' when i started, but i did it. That says to me, anyone can do it, not that it CANT be done at ALL. How BAD do u want to save money? Saving money doesnt mean convience, u pay for that.

http://city-speed.com/webstore/eng_GreddyTurbos.html

These guys seem to have some good prices on kits, i found emailing the store the best way to start a sale. If they dont reply in a timely, friendly way, its time to move on.

I know B-series run a higher compression, but i honestly beleive (neive or not) that if ur sensible, u can run something 'cheap' and reliable.

[Lyle_Style]

Do not go anything less the Standalone engine management for boost
Chips and Vafc/safe and piggy backs are crap for turbo conversion and arnt as safe as a standalone computer
Good ones to invest in are Microtec Lt8, Hondata, Motec

[Weq]

re: standalone. Illegal for street use. thats what every engineer ive ever spoken to has told me.
I piggybacked. my AF's are fine, coldstart stock. idle stock. might not have the _most_ power, but ur not gonna sell me anything, sorry bud.

All e-manages come out of the kit ready for upto 8psi of boost. they are safe tunes (not max power) and have proved RELIABLE for years. Just add a cooler and ur set.

and toda:
US$3,149.00 list - that site has the 99-00 kit for 2084 and the 02-04 kit for 2384. Exactly my point, these things are marked up like no tomorrow. Apply your forumla again, and u already save money over local.

Im sorry if i have offended anyone or seem like a dick. Its just i think another POV should be put forward. Shops are good, will treat u right, but dont think for a second just because its a shop it means they know best. Ive seen 10K+ turbo setups which still use an extra injector on charge pipe... I mean, cmon!!
I know all the guys around here like toda and razztech will give u a MEAN setup. Those things will fly, but not everyone had that kinda cash to burn. I wish someone down under would promote basic setups like this. Something affordable that will give peeps a taste of boost. All you guys know what boost feels like, and we all know its an addiction. Shove 5psi into most of the civics around ozhonda and people will go crazy. SOon enough the shops will be inundated (sp?) with guys willing to build bottom end, sleeving blocks and big HKS turbos cause they love boost so much.... Every 3rd honda in the US is blown, downunder its a priviliedge set aside for the big wallets or knowledgble mechanics.. Its pretty bleek.

[Rufes1]

And I dont think many people can call weq's civic slow.

[imashy14u]

Weq, I'm sure everyone here understands what you're talking about. But I just put my point of view across to Ghost, just to let him know that it can cost more than what he is anticipating. Just in case the guy gets his hopes up and then ends up with less than what he expected, or spending much more than he expected. From my experience, and others I know, at first it seems cheap and easy to do, but as the ball gets rolling, the budget starts balloning.

Anyway, goodluck with the conversion Ghost :thumbsup: , and let us know how it goes and whether you were on budget.

[**Ghost**]

thanks guys... : )

Kits can go for really really cheap in the US, but of course some companies are just plain shit. I was looking ofr an SSAUTOCHROME kit, which costs only around 400-600(D series - B series) for Turbo/Downpipe/Manifold. After some reaserach it seems this guys make REAL BAD SHIT, but the point is if things can go THIS low, then there must be some decent, mid-ranged kits out there.

[jimmeh]

it just comes down to research. the more you do the better you can gauge your expectations

[**Ghost**]

i realise that : )

Hey just as long as this is a b16A turbo thread... lemme ask u guys comment on this.

Firstly, how much does a hondata cost tuned? ditto for Greddy Emanage?

I was thinking i should get the hondata in first before the turbo cos then instead of having all this metal in my garage that i cant use until i get a hondata, i will enjoy the hondata for now and THEN start collecting metal from all over the world :)

but then of course theres the question of how much does RETUNE cost? i have no idea wtf is involved so can someone please tell me...and if i do the turbo install at home (with like 6 other ppl) how the hell am i going ot drive it to the shops to get it tuned?

[Weq]

im pretty sure hondadata is around $1500 for the s200 unit with boost addon maybe a couple of 100 less. Tuning, is 500 a session.

I had my e-manage tuned for 300 from scratch.

[pornstar]

dun forget odb conversion price mate

[**Ghost**]

Cool.. but ne reason why the Hondata on www.hondata.com (NOT EBAY) is 295 bucks?

+ 200 for boost capabilty it should be 495, not 1.5k?!?!

[**Ghost**]

and i cant understand something, if hondata is a standalone unit, y is it in the INSTALLED pictures the stock ecu is still there?!?!

[Weq]

its the american version. james does work with them.

[**Ghost**]

ah so s200 + James Customisation = 1500 ?

[pornstar]

then add on conversion from od2-1 then add on boost option then add on 3 bar map sensor thena dd on resistor box for injectors.

[**Ghost**]

ah so i have an obd2 do i? lol i always thought it was a obd1 :confused:

neway first piece from USA is on its way... T3/T4 Turbo with internal Gate

[pornstar]

seriously dude, dont take offence to this but you dont know anything about a turbo setup yet. And you want to do this all on a budget, i hope u know what u need, cos if not, ur gonna start crying.

[**Ghost**]

hey andy :wave:

nah offense taken man i know u mean well, otherwise u would encourage me to get SSAUTOCHROME yeh|? :D

i dunno, i hope i get it right, and in any case i know a dependable mechanic friend hwo can fix it up for me if nething blows... my plan i sbasically not to run any boost until i get all the parts together and bring it to somewhere where i can tune ECU

[poid]

which turbo did you end up getting man? I hope its not one of the eBay specials!

Research, research and mroe research is what you need...put that effort in and soon you'll be looking at things like Uberdata as doable instead of complicated and above your head. The only way to do a cheap setup (other than a cheap Greddy kit) is to know your stuff and put it together yourself.

As for the Hondata question, you looked at the US site and saw US prices. Here, when i priced Hondata for OBD2 i was looking at well over 2k for it. The uberdata solution complete with ECU, chip burner, wideband etc came in at less than half what Hondata would have cost. Granted that isnt the best way for everyone to go but really it just takes the effort to learn how it works and then it becomes a viable solution.

[imashy14u]

Ghost, where are you located? If you're in Sydney, try a place called UniGroup, they're over in Girraween (near Blacktown). These guys a really good. The guys there are uni graduates with a mechanical engineering degree (I went to uni with them :) ), so they know what they are talking about and the dyno guy, Yavus, worked at Dyno Dynamics.

Anyway, they have an aftermarket ECU called TSI. It's very good (got it in my car) and is designed and made specifically for your car. To install and dyno tune it costs about $1000-$1500, drive in drive out.

Check them out at:

www.unigroup.com.au

:thumbsup:

[**Ghost**]

i'm TRYING to understand uberdata hahaha... its completely bs, i have no idea wtf they are talking about, although i'm not worried about the soldering as my cousin is a computer science/communications engineering graduate and 9/10 of his assignments involve soldering of some sort.. just need to find him a good online tutorial withall the pictures

btw on the question fo uberdata, AFTER i solder in the chip/resistors/etc for the uberdata, and i do the conversion harness from obd2 to obd1, how do i connect the ecu to computer/laptop to tune? thats the part when i start getting lost in a world of "base maps" and "map hikes" and other terms that mean shit to me ^_0

[bkn_computers]

What people dont realise is before you turbo your NA car, you need to make sure your pockets are full, your bank accounts are full, and your cars paid off, and you paid every single bill you have on your fridge. coz it'll cost you the same amount your cars worth now =p
Turbo-ing NA can be a simple setup at first, simple stock internals, etc. but later on you know you'll have to replace other things, i.e. fuel pump, internals, etc, before it all falls apart. your NA wasnte designed to run forced induction.

To sum up your question but, no one will set up your turbo for 2 grand, not even if you were a mechanic yourself and did it, 2 grand would cover your parts if you're lucky.

But i can get you a drive in drive out job, no stuffing around, full turbo setup, for 7.5 grand, good job. My cars been fine so far, and so's the other 5 hondas i've seen been done there.

[Lyle_Style]

bro i reccon just get all of the hardwear necessary - without management.
get it all over bolt it all up. And then go to the microtec Website order a Lt8 directly from them which is like $1100 and then go to a shop and get them to finish the job off for ya!