VTEC single cam DOUBLE CARBY??

[jdmEG5]

hey, i just found this pics of the net, i belived it belongs to a person that lives in greenacre. lol. Just a thought, is this engine possible to run???

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3429/y1pohkrjsm7euapt9ldz3uax.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=y1pohkrjsm7euapt9ldz3uax.jpg)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2881/y1pflp1fxkgrlk4mfi36cq0o.th.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=y1pflp1fxkgrlk4mfi36cq0o.jpg)

http://www.4guk.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17211 < More info for DIY!!

[beeza]

Can U make the pics bigger at all?

[jdmEG5]

Not really. Click on the pics

[beeza]

Ah,it works now,didn't b4...cheers!!

[ECU-MAN]

of cource its possible for this engine to run

Honda carbie endines still use an ECU, so why not use it to control VTEC

[hayashi_1986]

I don't think there would be much more advantage to that set up...though if you tune a carby right, they can be pretty mean.

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

I like what i see.

Any more info on this?

[jdmEG5]

LOL no.. im just wondering :L. Which is better anyway?? carby or EFi? I feel like trying this " vtec carb " thing lol

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

Most likely Fuel Injected, but the Carby idea is cool.

[jdmEG5]

hmmm.. Someone should try this. LOL i wanna see the result. :D

[95civic]

I have actually done a bit of research into this, there are a few guys in the states that have done it. Apparently the cross over isnt as noticable but it is still there. I am thinking of playing around with this once I get my carby manifold back.

[jdmEG5]

hmm tell us the result? Would the carby vtec engine give out same power output as the EFi engine?? Just curious lol

[tseesinngwailo]

Was thinking if that was possible for my ED, I have to replace the engine anyway and i have the carbies complete :)

[onlykillzz]

if your running efi right now then your going to need a new fuel tank and lines and also carby's are shit on fuel, if you wont a cheap new motor buy a b18b its reliable quick and only like 1000 installed and there easy to find,

[jdmEG5]

b18b isnt a vtec right?? its just a DOHC?? come's from an integra GSi?

[garagedefend]

Didnt ZC16's or 15's was it come with these?

[nd55]

> Would the carby vtec engine give out same power output as the EFi engine?? Just curious lol

Bisi runs Mikuni side draughts on his drag D16's IIRC.

IMHO not practical for a daily driver.

Nick.

[onlykillzz]

b18b isnt a vtec right?? its just a DOHC?? come's from an integra GSi?

ya non vtec from the dc4(gsi) but still a really good motor

[jdmEG5]

Is it reliable? lol i might be thinking of doing this to my EG lol

[onlykillzz]

Is it reliable? lol i might be thinking of doing this to my EG lol

ya there way better than the d- series

[jdmEG5]

LOL hmmm price range?

[95civic]

I got some delorto carbs for my civic for just under $400... You then need a manifold.... roughly $550 inc shipping from the states

[~Sp33~]

hey, i just found this pics of the net, i belived it belongs to a person that lives in greenacre. lol. Just a thought, is this engine possible to run???

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/3429/y1pohkrjsm7euapt9ldz3uax.th.jpg (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=y1pohkrjsm7euapt9ldz3uax.jpg)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2881/y1pflp1fxkgrlk4mfi36cq0o.th.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=y1pflp1fxkgrlk4mfi36cq0o.jpg)

I actually have been in the car that had that engine installed, it was a light gold ED sedan. I was going to buy it about 3-4 years back. Took it for a test drive, was pretty quick. The guy was really really dodgy though, (tried to tell me it wasn't a swapped engine, then told us he lost the paperwork, then told me that his brother changed the engine and hadn't told him.. lol).

Brings back some memories!

[jdmEG5]

LOLOLOL hahahaha dodgy .. How quick was it?

[~Sp33~]

Well it's difficult to compare. I was only 16 at the time, and had never been in a civic before. I remember it sounded good, i doubt it would have been any faster then a regular VTI MPFI EG.

The carbs induction noise gets me every time.

[jdmEG5]

hahas but its quicker than the normal D15b?

[~Sp33~]

For sure.

[trism]

Honda carbie endines still use an ECU, so why not use it to control VTEC


wut?



hmm tell us the result? Would the carby vtec engine give out same power output as the EFi engine?? Just curious lol


it could give out more power yes, or at least the same.



if your running efi right now then your going to need a new fuel tank and lines and also carby's are shit on fuel, if you wont a cheap new motor buy a b18b its reliable quick and only like 1000 installed and there easy to find,

lies. carbies are NOT shit on fuel if they are tuned properly. they can be jsut as efficient as efi

also you dont need a new tank and lines. the electric pump can be installed in teh carby tank and there is enough lines, you juast need to replace the rubber sections with high pressure rated stuff.


Didnt ZC16's or 15's was it come with these?

no. the ZC was a DOHC non vtec engine


ya there way better than the d- series

lies again. got proof? there is nothing at all wrong with Dseries
in fact i think the quickest all motor honda is powered by a D series.




The carbs induction noise gets me every time.

i love carby induction noise



now, my take on this. search youtube for carby vtec, or something like that. there are a few vids. im planning ondoing it myself for a bit of fun. either use the stock carbies ( they are keihin, which are a good brand) or go quad motorbike carbies. get them tuned right by a good carby specialist, and prob just use a vtec controller rather then a full ecu

[~Sp33~]

wut?

no. the ZC was a DOHC non vtec engine



The carby Civic has an ECU, i think it's for the choke. The ZC came single cam too.

[trism]

An ecu just for the choke. Lolol

The zc single cam? Sure?

[ECU-MAN]

the carby ECU is not for choke

it controlls the fuel mixture like in an efi car by adjusting the carby pistons to change mixture.

[~Sp33~]

The zc single cam? Sure?

Yeah 100%. They also came vtec too. (Only the single cam models)


it controlls the fuel mixture like in an efi car by adjusting the carby pistons to change mixture.

Thanks for the correction.

[redefine]

lies. carbies are NOT shit on fuel if they are tuned properly. they can be jsut as efficient as efi


well...if you tune it for exactly the right condition and it stays there.
what drains carbys fuel consumption is changing conditions, where efi can adjust the ecu very quickly.

[~Sp33~]

well...if you tune it for exactly the right condition and it stays there.
what drains carbys fuel consumption is changing conditions, where efi can adjust the ecu very quickly.

I always got great fuel economy from my carby model. I'd average 7.0-7.3L/100kms mixed driving. My best was 5.9L/100kms. (All on freeway).

I miss that car...

[onlykillzz]

Originally Posted by onlykillzz

if your running efi right now then your going to need a new fuel tank and lines and also carby's are shit on fuel, if you wont a cheap new motor buy a b18b its reliable quick and only like 1000 installed and there easy to find,


lies. carbies are NOT shit on fuel if they are tuned properly. they can be jsut as efficient as efi

??? o...k carbies will never be as fuel efficient a fuel injection because it can not adjust for different rev ranges even a quad carby is still not that good for fuel efficiency this is beacuse a efi system can be maped to change AF over 1000 points if not more where as a carby can only have 100 or so also carbys squirt fuel which is bad for combustion where as injectors spray fuel.. and also if it was for efficient than EFI why are they not makeing new cars with " better" carby systems?


also you dont need a new tank and lines. the electric pump can be installed in teh carby tank and there is enough lines, you just need to replace the rubber sections with high pressure rated stuff.

ya it can be done but the only person i have seen do it is pual with his EG and it wasnt easy he had to remove the tank and drill a new set of holes for the new pump and then he still had to replace the lines beacuse they where the wrong ones (size and location)


Quote:

Originally Posted by onlykillzz View Post
ya there way better than the d- series

lies again. got proof? there is nothing at all wrong with Dseries
in fact i think the quickest all motor honda is powered by a D series.

your jokeing right ? so honda makes a new motor that is worse than the old one and then puts it in every sports car they made for almost 4 years
ow btw the most powerful NA honda motor is a k24/20 hi-bred that some company in the stats made also find me a NA d-serials that makes over 150kw

dude are you going to do the work on your car your self because if so i think you should really consider reading up a little more before your try it, just a thought

[MWAKU]

^ LOL owned.

[jdmEG5]

Haha!

[Tilley24]

also you dont need a new tank and lines. the electric pump can be installed in teh carby tank and there is enough lines, you juast need to replace the rubber sections with high pressure rated stuff.


Confident that certain fuel lines are Carby or EFI

[jdmlvn]

Confident that certain fuel lines are Carby or EFI

Eh? i'm confused! dont really understand this one?

And well.. for the above and before..

ROFLMAOZ!!! Always turns into war on these pages.. classic!

[~Sp33~]

and also if it was for efficient than EFI why are they not makeing new cars with " better" carby systems?


Emissions.

[jdmEG5]

BAHAS~ :L



what's emissions?

[~Sp33~]

It's what killed the Carburetor.

They're guidelines set in place to restrict the amount of pollutants emitted from the car.

[jdmEG5]

ahhh rightttt ~

[onlykillzz]

sorry to be so harsh didnt really mean to flame the guy but people like that really shit me off......

[jdmEG5]

Dont worry bro :L its alright :D

[Sp00ny]

Emissions.


It's what killed the Carburetor.

They're guidelines set in place to restrict the amount of pollutants emitted from the car.

I apologize but I can't see any logic in your statement.

First of all... you state that a carby can be as efficient as EFI. Yet, you mention "emissions" killed the carburetor. Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Wouldn't higher emissions be caused by unburnt fuel? Unburnt fuel passing through the exhaust system is a symptom of an engine running richer than stoich. If it was doing so... then it would be classed as less efficient?

[trism]

ya it can be done but the only person i have seen do it is pual with his EG and it wasnt easy he had to remove the tank and drill a new set of holes for the new pump and then he still had to replace the lines beacuse they where the wrong ones (size and location)



go read up this thread http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=100695

Peter has done it, AND used the stock lines iirc




so honda makes a new motor that is worse than the old one and then puts it in every sports car they made for almost 4 years


better do some research buddy. the B series has been around since the good old EF9 all the way back in 1988. It lasted all the way up until 2001. Thats 13 years. and 4 years isnt even a correct figure! If youre referring to the b18b, they didnt put it in "every sports car". They didnt put it in any sports car. It was in 4 door civics for 6 years and base model integras (which are hardly "sports cars") for 7.

Honda used the D series from 1987 all the way up to 2005.... think they are gonna use a "worse" engine for longer?

lets take this back into context. The original question was

Is it reliable?
then you said

ya there way better than the d- series
then i mentioned


lies again. got proof? there is nothing at all wrong with Dseries.


I never once said that the B series was "worse". you said the b18b is way better than the d, and i said that that wasnt true, in the context of the original question. The D series honda engines are one of the most reliable engines made, you can ask that to every single D series owner on this forum.



dude are you going to do the work on your car your self because if so i think you should really consider reading up a little more before your try it, just a thought


you really shouldnt make assumptions about people who you know nothing about


^ LOL owned.

please tell me how it is "owned"????

[trism]

a thread on this conversion

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28627

aside from grammar and spelling, not bad info


i removed the injection and installed the carbs, of course i had to modify 2 holes to alline. once done and fitted the engine i also had to consider a electric carb fuel pump because the factory one is manual fuel pump but the vtec engine doesnt have a space for the manual pump so i installed a electric pump via relays and so on. then i also had to construct a return system after the pump so the pressure wouldnt go to much on the carbs. then i thort whats gonna enable the vtec? well i was searching throu jaycar and bought a cool three light gear changer alert for like 30 dollars. so i bought this circuit and built it, then modifying it to run a relay to activate the vtec. then ajusted the circuit so i can allow vtec to kkick in at 4800rpm.

so it seems like an electric pump is need as the manual vacuum pump wont fit on the vtec motor.

[trism]

might nearly be worth just doing a full conversion to efi...

[trism]

Ok so I've done some research and some thinking and here is my points

-the stock carby fuel pump is mechanical, driven off the camshaft, and uses vacuum to force fuel up the lines into the engine. The d16y1 obviously doesn't have the spot where the mechanical pump goes, thus meaning an electric pump must be fitted. This requires removal of the tank, upgrading soft lines to high pressure rated lines and adding another hardline for the fuel return (unless sufficient hardlines exist already). Unless somebody can figure out a way to get the mechanical fuel pump onto the d16, I see no other option.

-vtec. The while point of the conversion is for vtec. We know there is ways to engage vtec but getting it to work well is a problem. Efi pumps more fuel in during vtec to make power. How can a carby do this? It can't unless you put work into getting more fuel avaliable at higher revs.

By the time you've mucked around with all of this it may have been just as easy to install it efi.

IMO I dont know why the entire dash etc needs to come out. If I just get the engine loom, run it thru the firewall have the ecu plugged in then necessary wires going to the tacho, and warning lights. Why doesn't the whole interior loo
need changig to efi?

[jdmEG5]

^ +1

Learnt something :D

[trism]

The stock mech pump has 3 hoses. one is a feed line from the tank, this then goes to the fuel rail. it then has a bleed line back to the tank

Thinking about this, what im going to do is just get a lift pump, like a Holley Red, and it will replace the mechanical pump. it is self regulating so ill run from the tank to the pump, then a bleed line back to the tank, and the feed line into the stock hardline. then in the engine bay ill go straight from the hardline to the fuel rail. vapour line for charcoal canister can stay untouched, and then that leaves me an unused line.

This way i dont need to change the entire loom for efi all i need to do is run a wire from ignition and have a relay for the pump

[jdm_b16a]

The zc single cam? Sure?

Absolutely. There's one out at PnP in a DA6 import ATM. SOHC Non VTEC ZC.

Peter

[onlykillzz]

i really cant be bothered arguing with you dude if you wont to spend money on a d- series then you do that but end of the day carby is shit and no mater what you do to your d- series it will always be a d- series. if the owner of this thread would like more info please pm me as this is just going to end up in this thread being closed for flaming

[~Sp33~]

I apologize but I can't see any logic in your statement.

First of all... you state that a carby can be as efficient as EFI. Yet, you mention "emissions" killed the carburetor. Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron? Wouldn't higher emissions be caused by unburnt fuel? Unburnt fuel passing through the exhaust system is a symptom of an engine running richer than stoich. If it was doing so... then it would be classed as less efficient?

No reason to apologise. I don't remember stating that the carburetor was as efficient as FI, I did say however that my model consistently got impressive figures. My personal average was 7.2L/100kms over the course of owning that car for 2 years.

I'd just like to point out at this stage that the 1.5L D15b4 was rated at 72kw while the American version with fuel injection (The d15b2) was 68.5 kw. America's www.fueleconomy.gov states the d15b2 sedan will do a best of 6.53L/100kms (which is a Honda estimate), while Honda states the d15b4 will do 6.49L/100kms.

Make of those figures what you will.

[trism]

i really cant be bothered arguing with you dude if you wont to spend money on a d- series then you do that but end of the day carby is shit and no mater what you do to your d- series it will always be a d- series. if the owner of this thread would like more info please pm me as this is just going to end up in this thread being closed for flaming

At the end of the day your opinion is your opinion.

I can take two things from your post
1. You realized that I actually have an idea of what I'm talking about and there is no point continuing
2. You have no real world experience in carbys. Please I'd like to hear your exact reasons and experiences why carby is shit

You have a b18b. It's not exactly a type r motor so stop trying to act all high and mighty

[onlykillzz]

At the end of the day your opinion is your opinion.

I can take two things from your post
1. You realized that I actually have an idea of what I'm talking about and there is no point continuing
2. You have no real world experience in carbys. Please I'd like to hear your exact reasons and experiences why carby is shit

You have a b18b. It's not exactly a type r motor so stop trying to act all high and mighty

you just wont give up mate, i a have jdm itr that would woop the shit out of anything you drive and if you would just step back for a second and look at your self your trying to fight someone over the internet you sad sad person. if you read your own quotes you can see that your contradicting your self and if you think carby is the way to go and having a shitty d series is the world then that's good for you. and as for real world experience what the f@ck do you no you think a d series is just as good as a B series and that the fastest NA honda motor is a d-series?????? get a life dude of and btw how is your ED going make shore you pull on that choke in the morning wouldnt wont the motor to f@ck up on ya

[95civic]

Ladies Ladies please!!!!

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

Damn Right, '95.

Carby motors get bitches, Carby B20 here I come :p

[trism]

Still havnt convinced me why you think carbys are shit.

You also keep going on and on big noting yourself and ripping on me.

Also none of the things you reckon I've said Ive mentioned. You seem to think that I have said that d is better than b. You seem to think that I reckon that carby is better than injected. But nowhere did I say that. All I said was questioning you and why YOU think they are shit

[~Sp33~]

I'd introduce you guy's to the carby d15 pink ED sedan that run's 13's NA, but i don't think your ready for it just yet.

[Sp00ny]

At the end of the day your opinion is your opinion.

I can take two things from your post
1. You realized that I actually have an idea of what I'm talking about and there is no point continuing
2. You have no real world experience in carbys. Please I'd like to hear your exact reasons and experiences why carby is shit

You have a b18b. It's not exactly a type r motor so stop trying to act all high and mighty

First of All. I'm not necessarily trying to fight anyones battles here, expessially when it comes to grammar/spelling mistakes (lol). However, it doesn't take experience to know a carburettor engine compared to EFI is always going to have greater downsides that up... Some of it's common sense...

Lets make a quick list off the top of my head:
- Carburettor engines have poor performance in climates that have varying seasons/conditions.
- Most Carburettor based systems don't have the capability of monitoring sensors to change Fuel Maps/Ignition timing or assess the Long Term/Short Term fuel trims. This effects fuel efficiency and performance considerably.
- Due to the above factor the car will be set to run richer than stoich in most conditions to ensure that even in the most severe/extreme conditions the Air/Fuel ratio is "Safe". Which leads to higher emissions and less than optimal fuel efficiency.
- Incompatability with turbo's and uncertain/complex compatibility with supercharging.
- Electronic Injectors can change their spray pattern by design and pulse width which creates relatively even fuel dispersion and increases the chance of a more complete combustion

Down to common sense:
- Why would over 95&#37; of cars move to EFI if it was just as or less efficient/powerful as a carburettor based engine.
- Honda may of used the D series for a longer time period, however look at the models of cars they were in.... The Honda Civic's/DelSol's... Their bottom of the range vehicle... Of course they used it for a long period of time, its a smaller capacity and in general less complex engine...it would be more cost effective for them to keep these engines in their entry level models. It would be bad business to do otherwise...

As for fuel efficiency... well the car itself is a lower capacity than most other EFI Honda Engines. The D15 carb engines are designed to sacrifice top end power to increase the low/middle range torque band... this in itself would create more fuel efficiency in general not having to rev as high/hard to drive normally. If you set up an EFI with these same goals/setup in mind... The same, usually better result would be the outcome.

*EDIT: SP33 Corrected a misquote*

I'm not disputing your project, go for it. Originality is a lost cause now-a-days. However, there is no real arguement besides maybe cost effectiveness between Carb vs EFI.


I'd introduce you guy's to the carby d15 pink ED sedan that run's 13's NA, but i don't think your ready for it just yet.

This may very well be true, sounds good. But imagine how fast it would be with a B16A thats worked... Carburettor isn't a dead science, they still have potential...but they fall behind when you compare them to a modern EFI system. Probebly not so much when the car is designed for TRACK/DRAG use only, but makes a huge amount of differance to a daily driven car.

Also Trism. It seems you have very deep knowledge of carburettor based combustion engines. It would be interesting to pick your brain about Supercharging a floating point carburettor based engine (4-Stroke Bike Engines usually) using a general blow-by effect... How effective/efficient would it be?

[~Sp33~]

I'm pretty sure he said 'quickest' not most powerful. Wasn't it a blue EM coupe on the salt lakes with a D17? Seems to ring a bell...

Clearly the most powerful would go to something with a decent capacity though.

[Sp00ny]

I'm pretty sure he said 'quickest' not most powerful. Wasn't it a blue EM coupe on the salt lakes with a D17? Seems to ring a bell...

Clearly the most powerful would go to something with a decent capacity though.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was only going by one of "onlykillzz" posts. Couldn't find the actual quote anywhere....

* Sits waiting for Trism *

[trism]

sorry, my mistake, its not a D series, but its a SOHC, carby engine

Bisimoto Honda Insight drag car, running an F18 or F22 non vtec engine with Redline Weber 55mm dco/sp carburetors with 48mm venturis

http://www.tunerzine.com/articles/208/2.jpg

9.67 seconds and 145mph....

[Sp00ny]

sorry, my mistake, its not a D series, but its a SOHC, carby engine

Bisimoto Honda Insight drag car, running an F18 or F22 non vtec engine with Redline Weber 55mm dco/sp carburetors with 48mm venturis

***EDIT: Duplicate Image***

9.67 seconds and 145mph....

Haha, That looks mad.

Surely it must be possible to create a carburettor VTEC engine. It would be too complex/time consuming to be worth it but.... THAT would be original lol. Possibly having a soleloid to change jets haha...

Btw... any thoughts on supercharging a floating point based carburettor engine? (similar to what are in small capacity Motorbikes)

[trism]

Also Trism. It seems you have very deep knowledge of carburettor based combustion engines. It would be interesting to pick your brain about Supercharging a floating point carburettor based engine (4-Stroke Bike Engines usually) using a general blow-by effect... How effective/efficient would it be?

Im not sure what youre insinuating here, or how it seems i have a "very deep knowledge" I also have little experience with smaller engines.

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

Excuse me while I palm face at the Woman...

[Sp00ny]

I wasn't being sarcastic... I'm asking by the way you talk it seems like you are relatively familiar with carburettor engines. So have you any thoughts on supercharging a floating point carby engine. Using a typical blow-by technique.

[trism]

blow by technique? are you referring to blow through?

[Sp00ny]

Yeah. I apologize, I've been reading too many american forums. Blow-through, using a supercharger to pressurize the intake chamber of the carburettor. Which in theory should force more petrol from the jets into the combustion chamber. It's good in theory but I couldn't see it being easy to jet/tune at all...

[Webby_roller]

Yeah. I apologize, I've been reading too many american forums. Blow-through, using a supercharger to pressurize the intake chamber of the carburettor. Which in theory should force more petrol from the jets into the combustion chamber. It's good in theory but I couldn't see it being easy to jet/tune at all...

Hey, if you were considering going this approach, it will cost a bit...

The theory is alright, except that the compressed air going through the carbie will force fuel out of the seals, not into the flow of air and into the engine. If you decided to do this you would need to get a carbie pressuirising kit which allows a positive pressure to be put on the insides of the seals of the carbie. (without them blowing) Then you would need to upgrade the fuel system to produce more pressure then is placed inside the carbie to allow fuel to flow from the carbie into the airstream.

The easiest way to charge a carbie would be a suck through system, where the carbie sits infront of the inlet to the charger. Although this does have its downsides, like limiting boost (as you cant run a front mount, although you can try water injection...) tunability can be hard, and would mabey require a new carbie, if the old one cant keep up the flow....

[trism]

as above, the only way to run a blow through setup, either S/C or turbo is to get the carby boost referenced which involves mods to the seals and needles/seats. Most cars running this setup will run a high pressure EFI pump (around 60psi) rather than a lower pressure pump, but this depends on boost levels.

[jdmEG5]

Hey hey hey -_-" this is a thread for discussion not arguing. Get over it manss... >_> if you have a faster car, so what, it doesnt really mean anything, its just " at least " you have a car that has 4 wheels engine and etc. Just cut it out seriously....


back to topic : Is it possible to get a k20a double carby HAHA

[Webby_roller]

Hey hey hey -_-" this is a thread for discussion not arguing. Get over it manss... >_> if you have a faster car, so what, it doesnt really mean anything, its just " at least " you have a car that has 4 wheels engine and etc. Just cut it out seriously....


back to topic : Is it possible to get a k20a double carby HAHA

lol, it is possible, but it would require alot of engineering....

It would require the removal of the injectors and whatnot.... then you would need the computer to run the ignition, without going into some sort of safe mode caused by the lack of the components you took out.

The motor bisimoto run was converted from EFI to carby, i believe. There was also a trend i heard about a couple of years ago where it was the in thing to turn an EFI car into a carby car...

the best thing about a carby is that all it needs for a tune to run at its maximum is a screwdriver....

[onlykillzz]

sorry, my mistake, its not a D series, but its a SOHC, carby engine

Bisimoto Honda Insight drag car, running an F18 or F22 non vtec engine with Redline Weber 55mm dco/sp carburetors with 48mm venturis

http://www.tunerzine.com/articles/208/2.jpg

9.67 seconds and 145mph....

ok now that it nice got any more info on it? tyred googling it nothing what kind of power/toque? and also how did they make the carby work at low-mid-hi rpm, also what car is it in civic?

[Sp00ny]

Hey, if you were considering going this approach, it will cost a bit...

The theory is alright, except that the compressed air going through the carbie will force fuel out of the seals, not into the flow of air and into the engine. If you decided to do this you would need to get a carbie pressuirising kit which allows a positive pressure to be put on the insides of the seals of the carbie. (without them blowing) Then you would need to upgrade the fuel system to produce more pressure then is placed inside the carbie to allow fuel to flow from the carbie into the airstream.

The easiest way to charge a carbie would be a suck through system, where the carbie sits infront of the inlet to the charger. Although this does have its downsides, like limiting boost (as you cant run a front mount, although you can try water injection...) tunability can be hard, and would mabey require a new carbie, if the old one cant keep up the flow....

Lol, It was more refering to a floating barrel carburettor found in small 4-stroke bike engines from 125cc-400cc, more of a side project to take up time during uni holidays lol.

These carby's don't have any places where air could leak unless you are running very, very high pressures... which wouldn't be likely. I've seen it done before but it was an engineers side project. So im curious about the difficulty to tune and get the setup running. Even if the power gain isnt anything great just substantial.

I assume you would have to ensure the carby is air tight first, then it would be a process of trial and error with carby boring, jets and needle size/progression....

It would be very funny having a 250cc quad that has 30hp haha. The minibike i saw had a Supercharged 125cc which on a single roller dyno got about 18.4hp compared to its stock 12.5hp. Pretty sure you would be replacing the piston rings between laps of hard driving if it wasnt done very well, lol.

Anyway probebly shouldnt hi-jack the thread and stay on topic... Interesting theory though...

[~Sp33~]

Bisimoto's site say's that Insight did it in 9.5 @ 145mph. Incredible.

[jdmEG5]

that engines a carbyyy?????

[Chernoby1]

also what car is it in civic?

Its clearly called a Honda Insight.

[jdmEG5]

quick question, is it possible to put a turbo on a carby? as i see peoples car, turbo charged cars are main of EFi engines as the pipe from on side of the intercooler connects with the throttle, and the other connects to the turbo. Just thinking, since carby's dont have " EFi throttle " what are other ways to do a turbo mod for a carby car?? Im not specificly talking bout hondas btw

[trism]

quick question, is it possible to put a turbo on a carby? as i see peoples car, turbo charged cars are main of EFi engines as the pipe from on side of the intercooler connects with the throttle, and the other connects to the turbo. Just thinking, since carby's dont have " EFi throttle " what are other ways to do a turbo mod for a carby car?? Im not specificly talking bout hondas btw


refer to these posts

supercharging and turbocharging are same principles


Hey, if you were considering going this approach, it will cost a bit...

The theory is alright, except that the compressed air going through the carbie will force fuel out of the seals, not into the flow of air and into the engine. If you decided to do this you would need to get a carbie pressuirising kit which allows a positive pressure to be put on the insides of the seals of the carbie. (without them blowing) Then you would need to upgrade the fuel system to produce more pressure then is placed inside the carbie to allow fuel to flow from the carbie into the airstream.

The easiest way to charge a carbie would be a suck through system, where the carbie sits infront of the inlet to the charger. Although this does have its downsides, like limiting boost (as you cant run a front mount, although you can try water injection...) tunability can be hard, and would mabey require a new carbie, if the old one cant keep up the flow....


as above, the only way to run a blow through setup, either S/C or turbo is to get the carby boost referenced which involves mods to the seals and needles/seats. Most cars running this setup will run a high pressure EFI pump (around 60psi) rather than a lower pressure pump, but this depends on boost levels.


reason you cant run an intercooler with a suckthrough setup is because you have the petrol air mix flowing through, and it will pool in the bottom of the intercooler, and if the engine backfires then it will explode

[Tilley24]

refer to these posts

supercharging and turbocharging are same principles



Aside from being either gas driven or belt driven.

[trism]

Did I say they were the exact same? No I said the same principles. They both force feed air into the engine

[Tilley24]

Not correcting you just adding for information purpose's, stop being so defensive.

[jdmEG5]

so its impossible to put a turbo on a carby?? whats the difference between supercharger and turbo btw? I saw this corolla on HOT4s magazine, it said it had a supercharger, and from the pics, it had an intercooler too.. Any chance that supercharger works same way as a turbo?? (sorry im nooob)

[Webby_roller]

so its impossible to put a turbo on a carby?? whats the difference between supercharger and turbo btw? I saw this corolla on HOT4s magazine, it said it had a supercharger, and from the pics, it had an intercooler too.. Any chance that supercharger works same way as a turbo?? (sorry im nooob)

No, its not impossible, its very possible.... For inspiration, look towards oldscool setups, alot of them use a simple suck-through system to boost their motors

There are several types of superchargers:
Centrifugal supercharger
Positive displacement superchargers
and i believe screw type superchargers
...

That is the basic groups, and they both force air into the engine, just using different techniques, and therefore are useful for different situations.

the centrifugal supercharger works in a similar way to a turbo, as they look the same from the front, just the turbo is driven by exhaust gases, and the supercharger is driven by a belt.

The positive displacement is quite complicated with several different designs...

Screw-types are similair to PD superchargers (i believe), but again, work on a different design/idea

[Sp00ny]

No, its not impossible, its very possible.... For inspiration, look towards oldscool setups, alot of them use a simple suck-through system to boost their motors

There are several types of superchargers:
Centrifugal supercharger
Positive displacement superchargers
and i believe screw type superchargers
...

That is the basic groups, and they both force air into the engine, just using different techniques, and therefore are useful for different situations.

the centrifugal supercharger works in a similar way to a turbo, as they look the same from the front, just the turbo is driven by exhaust gases, and the supercharger is driven by a belt.

The positive displacement is quite complicated with several different designs...

Screw-types are similair to PD superchargers (i believe), but again, work on a different design/idea

Although I know that Turbocharging a carburettor engine is by all means possible, It wouldn't be as reliable/less complex as a supercharger.

The reason behind why the vast majority of Turbocharged engines are EFI is because a supercharger delivers a linear charge of air. A turbocharger does not. Depending on the supercharger/pulley, 'Ceteris Parabis' it will give out the same amount of boost pressure/volume according to the RPM. A turbocharger will not, Thus the problem known as "Turbo Lag". The effectiveness of a turbocharger heavily relies upon throttle position/exhaust combustion temperatures/combustion mixture and RPM. A turbo will also deliver much hotter air into the engine, resulting in a varying AF Ratio needed. Not so easy if the engine doesn't have sensors.

Also if no intercooler is used (difficult on carbs) because a Turbocharger is effectively "recycling energy" the car will loose power through higher intake air temperature levels, which of course depend on setup and boost levels.

Besides the Kinetic energy lost by adding another pulley to the engine and depending on the setup less peak power compared to turbochargers... I personally would prefer to supercharge an engine than turbo, within reason.

- No where near the heat issues
- Boost is obtained accross the rev range, resulting in better everyday drivability
- Results in lower EGT's (Exhuast Gas Temperatures)
- Usually more reliable (Generalized statement as of course it would depend on the setup)

This is coming from a person who owns a Turbocharged car btw. Nothing wrong with a turbo car, but if it came down to it I would prefer a supercharged one as a street car.

Also, Webby_Roller / trism,
I don't know too much about Turbocharged Carburettor setup's, do you know what is done to overcome the issues that arise from doing so? Would be interesting to know.

[trism]

EDIT: in Reference to Webbys post

screw S/C is a form of positive displacement

there are two types of superchargers. Positive Displacement and Dynamic Compressors. Positive Displacement have the same level of boost at all RPMs whereas the Dynamic Comnpressors build boost as the revs rise. centrifugal type S/Cs are dynamic.

To sp00ny:

youre right about the linear boost levels with positive displacement, but centrigual S/Cs are become more and more popular.

adding a positive displacement blower to an engine known to be weak under high power (for example D series engines have weak rods, cant take much more than about 200hp) is generally thought to be a bad idea, as instant boost (pretty much from just above idle) puts strain on the components.

This is why you see alot of late model engines running centrigual 'chargers, because they work ont eh same principle as a turbo, higher rpm = higher boost. people do this for less strain on unopened motors.

In saying that, people do use positive displacment blowers on unopened engines to good use. take for example the LS2 (6 litre V8 as in the new commodores). Throw a roots supercharger on with only 3-4 psi and itll make nearly 500 horsepower all day long, on teh stock ecu with a boost referenced map sensor. there are bolt on kits for B series honda engines using screw blowers and they work well on unopened motors.

its all personal preference really, i prefer positive displacement for the instant boost and linear power delivery, whereas others prefer the sudden burst of power that comes from turbo or centrifugal charging


with regards to overcomeing issues with blown carby setups, most S/Cd setups use a roots type, and the carby sits ontop of the blower and the blower feeds straight into the intake manifold.. with turbo and centrigal blown cars they are normally only seen on high power V8s, that either run intercoolers and blow through setups or just straight blow through

a suckthrough setup is the budget way and most people only do it to start with until they can afford to buy a boost referenced carby.

its not even necessary to build it yourself as most manufactures sell them, or workshops do an exchange service where you give them your old one and they give you a boost ready one..

[Terryfying]

lo...sooooo should i consider doing this d16y single cam vtec conversion to my carby?? haha or stick with what i got...save up and b18c it! just looking for cheaper alternative because im tryiong to be realistic and being a student i wont be able to get the money for that engine but just thought the d16y couldof been a good cheap alternative..

[~Sp33~]

Converting your carby to VTEC could turn out to be a costly procedure if your not 100&#37; on the steps to take.

Just persist and save.

[Terryfying]

cheers

[Webby_roller]

It is true that it could cost you alot if you dont know what you are doing, or it could end up cheap with a car that dosen't work...

I am in the same situation but found it cheaper to be paitient and search and search and search till i found a car with a motor in it already...

These days it can be cheaper to buy a car with the conversion already installed as the price for some motors can be almost as much as buy a whole car.

Just my 2 cents....

But then again, you get what you pay for and if the car is cheap, the conversion is cheap... so your back to square one trying to fix it....

Good luck

[jdmEG5]

this thread is going well LOL

Im still curious what are the results for this conversion...

[Terryfying]

thanks guys=]

[jdmEG5]

Although I know that Turbocharging a carburettor engine is by all means possible, It wouldn't be as reliable/less complex as a supercharger.

The reason behind why the vast majority of Turbocharged engines are EFI is because a supercharger delivers a linear charge of air. A turbocharger does not. Depending on the supercharger/pulley, 'Ceteris Parabis' it will give out the same amount of boost pressure/volume according to the RPM. A turbocharger will not, Thus the problem known as "Turbo Lag". The effectiveness of a turbocharger heavily relies upon throttle position/exhaust combustion temperatures/combustion mixture and RPM. A turbo will also deliver much hotter air into the engine, resulting in a varying AF Ratio needed. Not so easy if the engine doesn't have sensors.

Also if no intercooler is used (difficult on carbs) because a Turbocharger is effectively "recycling energy" the car will loose power through higher intake air temperature levels, which of course depend on setup and boost levels.

Besides the Kinetic energy lost by adding another pulley to the engine and depending on the setup less peak power compared to turbochargers... I personally would prefer to supercharge an engine than turbo, within reason.

- No where near the heat issues
- Boost is obtained accross the rev range, resulting in better everyday drivability
- Results in lower EGT's (Exhuast Gas Temperatures)
- Usually more reliable (Generalized statement as of course it would depend on the setup)

This is coming from a person who owns a Turbocharged car btw. Nothing wrong with a turbo car, but if it came down to it I would prefer a supercharged one as a street car.

Also, Webby_Roller / trism,
I don't know too much about Turbocharged Carburettor setup's, do you know what is done to overcome the issues that arise from doing so? Would be interesting to know.
good post! Just a question, within the Tubro and spuercharger, which is cheaper?? and which one is worth it? As i read through, supercharger has more compatibilaty of non-heating up issues, gas as etc, where the turbo charger does...

[Sp00ny]

good post! Just a question, within the Tubro and spuercharger, which is cheaper?? and which one is worth it? As i read through, supercharger has more compatibilaty of non-heating up issues, gas as etc, where the turbo charger does...

To be honest. Here in Australia... A supercharged setup would most likely be more costly. As the parts are more difficult to source and it is much more difficult to find a reputable/capable place to install/tune. The cost does vary greatly depending on quality of parts and desired power figures.

Also another pro to add to that list is a major one. The linear power response/delivery of a supercharger is much more suited to the track where linear power delivery and mid range torque is necessary to keep the car predictable and stable. Nothing worse than coming into boost mid-corner and changing the balance of the car... I owned a WRX and its not that bad because its AWD but a RWD/FWD would be awful for this...

However, the majority of time turbo's can produce the higher peak power figures...

[jdmEG5]

(y) ++1

[trism]

ultimately id love a supercharger for the linearity, and the supercharger whine lol

[tiksie]

Haha punchonz with matt, owning a EG GLi, EG VTi, EG Breeze and EG GL I can tell you guys that I got heaps of KM's out of the Breeze (1.3l single carby motor) and 2nd most is the GL (1.5l twin carby motor) then 3rd (1.5 EFi motor) then 4th VTi (1.6 EFi Motor).

Breeze: 600km/tank+
GL: Nearly 600km/tank
GLi: 540ish km's/tank
VTi: 520ish km's/tank

All on BP Ultimate.


EDIT:

All cars were dead stock when tests were conducted, no mods.

[trism]

BUT

did you drive the breeze like a granny and flog the vti?

or all driven the same?

just proves my point that people like commenting on shit they dont know, when you get people like tiksie who actually have experience

[tiksie]

To get a accurate reading I drove all of them the same (granny style).

It's normal for me to 'run the car in' in a sense when I first buy it to see ultimately how many KM's it can go on a full tank driving normally.

After getting a accurate reading, I go for gold on the next fill up haha.

[Sp00ny]

Haha punchonz with matt, owning a EG GLi, EG VTi, EG Breeze and EG GL I can tell you guys that I got heaps of KM's out of the Breeze (1.3l single carby motor) and 2nd most is the GL (1.5l twin carby motor) then 3rd (1.5 EFi motor) then 4th VTi (1.6 EFi Motor).

Breeze: 600km/tank+
GL: Nearly 600km/tank
GLi: 540ish km's/tank
VTi: 520ish km's/tank

All on BP Ultimate.


EDIT:

All cars were dead stock when tests were conducted, no mods.


I'm not trying to argue your results as I am sure you are probebly correct...but that doesn't prove anything about a carburettor based engine... all that proves is that particular engine is more fuel efficient.

Another point, why would you use BP Ultimate in a low compression N/A engine thats designed to be used with 91? The fuel isn't going to give any measurable benefit and it may adversly effect performance/efficiency, The only reason I could understand would be because of the cleanliness of a higher grade fuel... All it's really going to do is cost you more money :confused:



just proves my point that people like commenting on shit they dont know, when you get people like tiksie who actually have experience

I'm not 100&#37; certain about the stock EG's power output but you can't compare directly a car that makes for eg. 1.5L 74kw carby to a 1.5L 85kw EFI ... the car that has more torque/power will most likely use more fuel. It also depends on where in the rev range the engine makes the most torque. If the EFI is designed to have more power/torque higher in the rev range then you will find that you will have to change your shifting habits accordingly which in turn... would use more fuel.

To me it's common sense... I have no problem with carby's however if they were really significantly more efficient... the car industry wouldn't of phased them out.

Some people say that the reason they got phased out was because of emissions...which when you think about it... relates to poor fuel efficiency. More unburnt fuel passing through the exhaust/catalytic converter == higher emissions.

[~Sp33~]

why would you use BP Ultimate in a low compression N/A engine thats designed to be used with 91? The fuel isn't going to give any measurable benefit and it may adversly effect performance/efficiency,

I don't see how it would adversely effect any aspect of efficiency.




I'm not 100% certain about the stock EG's power output but you can't compare directly a car that makes for eg. 1.5L 74kw carby to a 1.5L 85kw EFI ... the car that has more torque/power will most likely use more fuel.

I think a comparison is viable when both engines are identical, and the only difference is the induction system in the case of the d15b2 and the d15b4 which was a point i made earlier.


Some people say that the reason they got phased out was because of emissions...which when you think about it... relates to poor fuel efficiency. More unburnt fuel passing through the exhaust/catalytic converter == higher emissions.

At the time, carb systems that Honda were using were equal to, or more efficient then the (then) current EFI systems. Clearly these days, with more then 20 years of fine tuning the EFI systems are much more of an accurate way of fuel delivery.

Carbs met a point of maximum efficiency which fell short of the growing emission demands. The demands which could be met and surpassed by a more expensive EFI system.

Carbs still have their place in the automotive industry, just not being applied to fuel saving, emission friendly grocery getters. :)

[Sp00ny]

I don't see how it would adversely effect any aspect of efficiency.





I think a comparison is viable when both engines are identical, and the only difference is the induction system in the case of the d15b2 and the d15b4 which was a point i made earlier.



At the time, carb systems that Honda were using were equal to, or more efficient then the (then) current EFI systems. Clearly these days, with more then 20 years of fine tuning the EFI systems are much more of an accurate way of fuel delivery.

Carbs met a point of maximum efficiency which fell short of the growing emission demands. The demands which could be met and surpassed by a more expensive EFI system.

Carbs still have their place in the automotive industry, just not being applied to fuel saving, emission friendly grocery getters. :)

So after all that, your point isn't against current EFI or EFI in general its a carburettor vs. first introduction of EFI? Because that I can understand... I personally still wouldn't believe that an identical engine running carbs vs EFI would be more fuel efficient given the same amount of engineering level and sophistication until I saw it with my own eyes.

The discussion is now starting to become alot clearer... because surely you must understand how obsurd it would of been to think that todays EFI vs Today's carbs, the carbs would turn out on top...

[tiksie]

I'm not trying to argue your results as I am sure you are probebly correct...but that doesn't prove anything about a carburettor based engine... all that proves is that particular engine is more fuel efficient.
.


onlykillz said that the carby in civics are shit on fuel, I just proved that wrong thats all.

I wasn't trying to make any other points.

Using 91 and Ultimate in all of my cars, I have gotten 40-50 more kms out of using Ultimate, so I'm guessing it does make a difference.

All measured till the fuel light went on then driven another 20kms after.

[~Sp33~]

So after all that, your point isn't against current EFI or EFI in general its a carburettor vs. first introduction of EFI?

Well, the original argument was for the twin carb system from back in the late 80's. Not that the late 80's were the introduction of EFI though.

[4age8u]

onlykillz said that the carby in civics are shit on fuel, I just proved that wrong thats all.

I wasn't trying to make any other points.

Using 91 and Ultimate in all of my cars, I have gotten 40-50 more kms out of using Ultimate, so I'm guessing it does make a difference.

All measured till the fuel light went on then driven another 20kms after.

correct and i feel putting 98 on a d15b4 makes it smoother

[jdmEG5]

correct and i feel putting 98 on a d15b4 makes it smoother

would that make the engine better? LOL i heard it does, thats wad dedy said from top one

[trism]

advantages of 98 over 91 include

-more resistant to pinging/detonation.
-has additives the help clean carbies/injectors/valves
-will give you better fuel economy

[jdmEG5]

so it does make a difference? I cant really tell, usually caby engines sounds ruff, lol, all i can tell is, its more efficient than a normal unleaded. When i used 98 octane on my EG5, i cud tell the difference by performance, sound, and fuel efficiensy. But when i use unleaded on my EG, it makes this ratlling noise inside the engine block.. donno if thats normall..

[Sp00ny]

advantages of 98 over 91 include

-more resistant to pinging/detonation.
-has additives the help clean carbies/injectors/valves
-will give you better fuel economy

First point is that alot of the higher octane fuel's have lower combustion energy due to the artificial additives to clean the engines internals and burn "cleaner"... although there is no direct relation between RON and Total Energy... it is a general rule of thumb...

Although these advantages are true, I truely don't see how a carburettor engine could compensate for a higher octane fuel... It doesn't have knock sensor's or a crank angle sensor to determine pre-ignition... Unless you advanced the ignition timing manually. Keeping in mind though my carburettor experience is restricted to small Two/Four Stroke engines and not car engines... They may have sensors I don't know about.

Also even though a higher octane fuel WILL provide these benefits in an EFI car, the benefits will be VERY limited... Stock ECU's are made to be very conservative and won't change the ignition timing/fuel mixture much outside of its original scope... To prevent leaning out / rich mixtures... Thus why ultimately to achieve noticable gains from modifications/change of RON we get cars Dyno/Road Tuned......

[~Sp33~]

donno if thats normall..

Sounds completely unrelated to what petrol your using. Sounds more like something that you happened to notice after filling up with a certain petrol grade.

[jdmEG5]

i mean like, it sounds very... "dirty" like.. it makes this kind of sounds when ur chewing a kfc of something.. i unno :S this happens all the time when i use normal unleaded on my EG.. no good :( maybe valves or wadever's in there is stuffn up lol..

well, i used V power for.. 3 years now, and at one stage where i needed fuel, i was in the middle of no wer, fuel tank was empty .. as in empty, and i filled up half tank with unleaded.. and engine sounded it was gonna fall apart :S.. this always happens on the EG wen i uses normal unleaded. Wen i use V racing/power, everything's fine :S

any ideas what can be the problem?

[~Sp33~]

I've never been able to hear the difference in fuel grade. Unless you put diesel in it.

[Sp00ny]

i mean like, it sounds very... "dirty" like.. it makes this kind of sounds when ur chewing a kfc of something.. i unno :S this happens all the time when i use normal unleaded on my EG.. no good :( maybe valves or wadever's in there is stuffn up lol..

well, i used V power for.. 3 years now, and at one stage where i needed fuel, i was in the middle of no wer, fuel tank was empty .. as in empty, and i filled up half tank with unleaded.. and engine sounded it was gonna fall apart :S.. this always happens on the EG wen i uses normal unleaded. Wen i use V racing/power, everything's fine :S

any ideas what can be the problem?

Could be pinging/pre-ignition? Have you/previous owners manually advanced your ignition timing?

[jdmEG5]

erm no, i havent done anything to the engine :S besides CAI.. and nah i havent mod any igniton - internal mods, previous owner probably did it

[~Sp33~]

It's not an internal mod, it's just a matter of moving your distributor. Push it toward the firewall to advance, and pull it toward you to retard.

[Sp00ny]

It's not an internal mod, it's just a matter of moving your distributor. Push it toward the firewall to advance, and pull it toward you to retard.

^^ As above.

If there is no marking on the distributor (normally is if it's been changed) then it might be wise to take it to a mechanic or purchase a timing light to see what it is currently set at. I would say there is advanced timing thus why you would see a gain by running a higher octane fuel and pinging/noise when using a low octane fuel.

[jdmEG5]

i'll check it out with my mechanic.. But this isnt serious, its just a thing i would like to know.. thanks anyways.. :)

[Sp00ny]

i'll check it out with my mechanic.. But this isnt serious, its just a thing i would like to know.. thanks anyways.. :)

No Problems.

[jdmEG5]

sorry to bump my old tread, but i would like to share this link to everyone here who is interested in this topic ; got the link from viinhh..

http://www.4guk.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=17211

[trism]

Awesome stuff

[jdmEG5]

Awesome stuff

:thumbsup:

[bboyzell]

Hmm Thanks for linking to that Build Thread :D

I have been actually very tempted to get a old Honda Civic and Do this myself.
Pretty much this has confirmed most my Suspicions on what will needed to be done to the engine.

[jdmEG5]

Hmm Thanks for linking to that Build Thread :D

I have been actually very tempted to get a old Honda Civic and Do this myself.
Pretty much this has confirmed most my Suspicions on what will needed to be done to the engine.

Good luck !! :D

[tseesinngwailo]

This needs a set of 40mm Webers or Dellortos, and sock filters, then we have lift-off! I miss my Alfa GTV, Carbs sound great under full throttle Please someone do this haha