Car has no spark after running rough :S...

[Chriskoss]

Hey guys

Today I accidently damaged the no.4 spark plug lead in my DA9 (standard engine) :(

I drove it around and it was running rough, so I decided to stop and check it out.

Then I tried to turn the car back on again to find it wont start at all..

Called NRMA, and the car seems to have no spark now.. I thought it would of just been an easy fix with a new plug lead..

He said it could be the dissy module now, as putting the engine on strain would of stuffed it?

Anybody know if this is a common problem for the DA9 engines.. and is there somewhere I can get a part number for the module and maybe an estimate cost to fix the module at a mechanics?

I searched and read if you run the car with a loose lead or an off lead.. it can stuff the ignitor (ICM), or coil or main relay?

cheers

[felixd]

could be the distributor aswell

[Chriskoss]

Thing is everything was fine before I broke the spark plug. Then now even after changing the broken spark plug there is no spark?

[bennjamin]

common for a old dizzy to fail after a spark lead pops off or is damaged.

You need to replace your Cap or rotor or ICM or coil. Or all of them

[Chriskoss]

Ouch.. is there a way of testing to see which one is at fault?

How can I test the ignition coil.. by just replacing it and seeing if it fires?

Where is the coil anyway lol, I can't seem to locate it.. is it internal with the dissy

[beeza]

The coil is in the dizzy.

Tests:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56224&highlight=ignition+coil+test

U can do an ECU code check too! See what codes ya get:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8218&highlight=ecu+code+check+joo

[Chriskoss]

I dont understand how to take out the coil, the how-to just shows it already out.. is it located inside the dissy?

[JohnL]

Could also be the 'ignitor', which also lives inside the distributor.

[beeza]

I dont understand how to take out the coil, the how-to just shows it already out.. is it located inside the dissy?

Yes,you will need to take off the 'rotor' which is right in the middle of the dizzy.A phillips head will accomplish this.Then unplug and pull out the coil (Big chunky mother :) )

As John said it could be the ICM aswell though...

[Chriskoss]

Mmm Ill just get a workshop to check it out before I stuff up anything else.

Anyone know how much a replacement coil or ICM would be RRP?

[beeza]

PM 'dsp26' about the ICM,he should be able to point you in the right direction.You can buy them seperately.

[fatboyz39]

Yeah usually ICM.

[JohnL]

The ignitors (aka ignition control modules) used in most Hondas tend to die after extended km, so it's not a surprise for one to fail in a higher km car.

They are also damaged by becoming excessively hot, which might be as a result of the engine overheating, but more likely as a result of excessive resistance in the high tension leads (i.e. spark plug wires). If you find a faulty ignitor then also check the HT lead resistance, because resistant old leads may cause the new ignitor to fail quickly (been there...)

The same thing might occur during an extended period of misfiring? When a plug fails to fire or the lead falls off (without the spark being able to jump to earth), then effectively the resistance on that HT circuit goes to infinity

[Chriskoss]

So JohnL your pretty confident its the ICM then?

Is it an expensive part to replace?

Thankyou so much for the detailed info

[bennjamin]

got a friend with the same car ?
Borrow their dizzy - try it and see if you get the same issue.

[Chriskoss]

unfortunately not.. ill see what the mechanics say

[beeza]

My mechanic didn't know shit!

A lot of old school mechanics just don't.

That's one of the main reasons most of us here try to fix everything ourselves.With patience and a willingness to learn this can be achieved.Fixing ya car is not a daunting task as I would believe.3 years ago I knew jack about cars,it wasn't until I got in there and got my hands dirty that I started to really learn (not just read).

[Chriskoss]

Yeh I explained it to him that its only the ignition and could be only ICM, dissy module, Coil and to replace whatever is needed. Getting it towed there on thursday so hopefully its all okay

The main thing is to tell them what you only need, i've been to a mechanic before who did all sorts of useless shit to the car without asking me and charged like 600 for a service

[JohnL]

So JohnL your pretty confident its the ICM then?

Is it an expensive part to replace?

Thankyou so much for the detailed info

"pretty confident" is overstating it. From your description of the symptoms it seems the most likely cause, but I'm not an auto electrician.

From vague memory the ignitor for my CB7 Accord cost $180 (or was that $120...?). But then I had to buy two in about two weeks because the auto electrician from whom I purchased the first replacement didn't think it was important to tell me that my old ignition leads were most probably what had caused the first failure, but then maybe he didn't know...

[Chriskoss]

Hahaha thats unlucky John,

I know its not my old leads as me stupidly braking the lead caused the car to stop and it was going fine before that so hopefully its not too expensive to fix!

[revjunkie]

its always ignitor module... place at wilston sells them for $100. i always replace my own ones.. easy as.

[Chriskoss]

Wish I knew how :(

[Bludger]

have you even opened it up to try?

[JohnL]

I know its not my old leads as me stupidly braking the lead caused the car to stop and it was going fine before that so hopefully its not too expensive to fix!

If all is well then breaking one lead shouldn't prevent the engine from running, it would just run on three cylinders (and roughly). If you were already running on three cylinders (at idle) then losing another may well stop the engine from idling at all (though on two cylinders it might still run extremely poorly above idle).

Losing a lead might concievably cause the ignitor to fail if it was already close to doing so (especially if the spark can't find an earth), and when they stop working it's like it was just switched off. The ignitor may well start working again after it's cooled down, which might be in one minute, 10 minutes, two hours, or tomorrow morning. However, in this case it will stop working when it gets hot again, and will soon fail completely.

[Chriskoss]

Yeah, I tried to start it a day later, then every day for a week. Theres just zero spark which would mean something is deffinately dead.. Its at the mechanics now hopefully its only the ignitor

[beeza]

Sa-weet!

[Chriskoss]

Uhh the mechanic looked and said its the coil.. and will be 420 dollars to replace.. does this sound right?

[beeza]

$420 for a F@$KING COIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I want to head butt him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

[beeza]

Take his mechanics licience and shut his buiness down ASAP!

F@$KIN' CROOKS!!!!

[Chriskoss]

Kmart tyre and auto.. ****en idiots...

I called repco and the coil is 99 dollars... and then he said it would then be 200 dollars to fit it.. ffs

is it hard to install it at home?

[beeza]

Mate,it's a 10 minute job.MAX!

[Chriskoss]

Can you give me some tips on doing it.. im not gona pay 200 bucks to some guy for a 10 min job lol.. sigh* mechanics

[beeza]

Sure!

- Unplug ya leads (mark them 1,2,3,4 so you can match them when putting it back together)
- Take off the dizzy cap
- Take off the rotor,it's right in the middle,remove with phillips head
- Under where the rotor was will be another phillips head that will need to be undone and a thin round metal thingy :) needs to be removed to make room for the coil to come out.
- Unplug the 2 wires on the coil (remembering which way they go back)
- Remove/replace coil
- Put it all back together

Take your time,patience is the key.Don't wanna go forceing things and breaking them.A beer will help with that! WORD! :)

[dzyn3]

his one might be a external coil?
standard

[beeza]

Nope,it's in the dizzy

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81824&page=106

Personnally I would upgrade to a Crane Cams LX91 coil + MSD dizzy cap.

[bennjamin]

great work Brett but just a few thoughts -

Firstly ALWAYS disconnect the battery before any electrical work on cars. Simply disconnect the NEGATIVE terminal.

you dont need to take off the leads - just unscrew the 4 x small philips heads and slide the dizzy cap off. Easy

Finally , since this is a once in a 10 year kind of issue - replace the coil with a OEM "TEK" coil from a good spare parts supplier. It should cost around $80-100 for the coil itself. Dont bother with any aftermarket brands or external coils that promise extra power etc - they simply dont last as long as OEM :)

[Chriskoss]

The only one from repco they had was for 99 dollars.. Is the brand name called 'TEK' Ben?

cheers

[bennjamin]

not sure - its probably a BOSCH unit. Still should be fine.....should last another 10 years !

[beeza]

Thanks Mate.

[Chriskoss]

I got the coil, its a Champion, is this okay?

[bennjamin]

should be fine. Now one way or another....get it in !

[Bludger]

you really7 think you're going to keep your car longer than 5 years???

doesn't matter what coil you got, its a friggin coil.

even if you got the best one available, you prolly be complaining its too dear.

just slap it on and gget your car running.

[Bludger]

Chuck wished he could say what i said, but he can't

lmao

sucked in:p

[bennjamin]

dammit lol. If i tried i would edit my own reply to be more nice lol *bennjamin edit SHUT UP*

[Chriskoss]

Yo guys

I put it in baby.. put it right in LOL

Yeah , started first crank.. go the Honda's

One thing I did realise is that it idles a tad higher than before now.. at like 800-900 rpm when before about 600..

Oh and the plastic casing that goes inside the dissy cap.. is it really needed.. it sorta broke off a bit of plastic when I was putting it in, does it matter

P.S i sincerely appreciate all your help I saved like 350 from a mechanic who was trying to tell me that changing a coil was like trying to resolve world hunger

[Bludger]

good on you.:)

[Chriskoss]

answer my questions or perish! lol jk but seriously.. do I need the plastic cover?

[bennjamin]

nfi if its that relevant...probably just a minor heat/spark shield. \
When i changed mine recently i too broke the cover a tiny bit. no issues.

[Bludger]

nfi what you're on about.

[revjunkie]

good work. its idling higher cause its sparking properly :)

[Chriskoss]

Sweet as, cheers Ben! I didn't need you this time, thanks for the offer though! :P

[beeza]

Well done mate!

[Chriskoss]

Hmm it still is idling really rough like when it had the broken lead.. im afraid it will blow another coil.. what could it be now.. it still starts but takes a few cranks.. and it stalls if i dont use alot of gas off 1st.. and the exhaust makes a pluttering noise and i can hear the sound of opening a gas bottle hissing noise coming from the engine bat when car is at idle?

[revjunkie]

have you given a bootfull.. like push it?

[Chriskoss]

not really.. it kicks up power around the 3500-4000 rpm range...

It could be the other lead I got to replace.. its the right lead but is too long at the shaft so the end sticks up 1cm from the opening where as the others are sealed tight.. would this matter

[revjunkie]

as long as the lead where its touching the spark plug cant earth agains the head you should be fine.. cud need new plugs if you have been trying to start it for a while with fuct coil or running with bad ignition = fuel too rich = dead plugs..

[Chriskoss]

Nah didnt suss out igniter.. as I put in the coil and it started first go before..

Ill go pick up a new set of leads and see how it runs then..

revjunkie how can I get out the leads safely.. they are hard to pull out and I dont want to fuk up another set of leads.. Like I know I shouldnt tug on the wire part but I can't access the hard plastic end part until the cover is off?

[revjunkie]

yeah man get new leads.. these motors and motors of this era or slighty before ie d series had lead issues.. but once i replaced with ones from wreckers the motors went forever.. its not that bad to pull the leads out with the hard rubber bit, just dont do it too often is the key.

[Chriskoss]

Alright, fingers ****ing crossed it will be right after the new leads.. im sick and tired of this car already and had it for 1 month

you got any idea btw about the leaking air hissing sound from the engine bay (comin mainly from injectors)

[revjunkie]

you should be right man.. any car is going to be a hassle.. whether it be air con units failing or powersteering pumps etc etc.. the list goes on.. people dont realise that theyre rediculous expenses on services helps slow that process.. doing it yourself can be ok if your remember important stuff..

anyway yeah fingers crossed bloke.. replace plugs while your at it and if all else fails grab a $100 ignitor and replace that also.. next step would be ecu sending wrong firing. just remember its internal combustion. its gonna be noisy and sometimes unpredictable.. honda get it pretty accurate compared to other manufacturers but yer.

noise from injectors is nothing.. remember 60 - 70 psi fuel pressure is there.. maybe higher.. injectors are also noisy.. and you could even have manifold leak.. is a hose popped off?.. should suss all that stuff out.

its more simple than it seems man.

cheers

[JohnL]

Alright, fingers ****ing crossed it will be right after the new leads..

At least have your lead resistance checked. If they are within spec then no need to replace (leads ain't that cheap either).


im sick and tired of this car already and had it for 1 month

It sounds like the sort of trouble you get after buying a car that hasn't been maintained all that well.


you got any idea btw about the leaking air hissing sound from the engine bay (comin mainly from injectors)

It could be a gasket leak on the intake manifold or plenum, or leaking injector seals (sucking air). If so it certainly wouldn't be helping the smooth running of your engine...

[Chriskoss]

How can i check the lead resistance

[Bludger]

please don't ask us to diagnose sounds over the net.

[Bludger]

How can i check the lead resistancemate, i just typed "check lead resistance" up on google and a shitload of stuff came up..

I'm sure if you take your time and refine your search more, you can find this out.

all along in this thread, you have been spoon fed answers without you going out there actively looking

[Chriskoss]

Oi mate come on relax Im a newby who just got his first car.. how would i know what to google?

if you dont like this thread simply dont post in it, I have thanked those who have helped me and I try and help whoever I can when they have problems, if you don't believe me check the posts I've made in other threads

What is the point of this forum if everything can be found in 'google' anyways. The point of this forum is for members to share the same experiences other people get down the track to help them

Anyway, I got new leads, top gun spiral ones. $125 later and the car seems to run fine now!

[beeza]

Excellent!

[Chriskoss]

Thanks again for the help Beeza and all you other kind lad's

[beeza]

No probs mate and WELL DONE!