Confused? ivtec engagement

[Tarquin]

ive had a few hondas, a civic prelude and now an accord euro,
the first 2 cars ran the old school vtec, both were pretty aggressive in their change over, the euro with its ivec is very differerent though.

goin through the rev range it feels as though vtec starts to bulid around the 5000rpm mark and the car gets a hell of alot louder and continues to build then hits the 6500rpm mark and sort of takes off again and shoots right to the limiter? similar but not quite as agressive as the h22a in my old prelude

im just not sure if this is normal as im used to the older style vtec engagement.
its an 03 manual, i picked up second hand, only modification i knew of was a fugitsubo legalis, ive added a CAI and as far as im aware thats it oh apart from a set of $3600 advan wheels and a genuine that i recently had to get repaired lol

is this normal? if not should i be seriously looking at getin the problem sorted?
anything would be helpful
thankyou in advance

[Crapdaz]

ive had a few hondas, a civic prelude and now an accord euro,
the first 2 cars ran the old school vtec, both were pretty aggressive in their change over, the euro with its ivec is very differerent though.

goin through the rev range it feels as though vtec starts to bulid around the 5000rpm mark and the car gets a hell of alot louder and continues to build then hits the 6500rpm mark and sort of takes off again and shoots right to the limiter? similar but not quite as agressive as the h22a in my old prelude

im just not sure if this is normal as im used to the older style vtec engagement.
its an 03 manual, i picked up second hand, only modification i knew of was a fugitsubo legalis, ive added a CAI and as far as im aware thats it oh apart from a set of $3600 advan wheels and a genuine that i recently had to get repaired lol

is this normal? if not should i be seriously looking at getin the problem sorted?
anything would be helpful
thankyou in advance
yes the euro vtec transition doesnt have the aggressive crossover like the others.
It's more transitional to deliver smoother power.
Vtec kicks in at 5800-6000rpm, but the K series engine performs better at higher rpm so you will feel more go at the 5k mark.

Rev limiter is at 7200, once you reach it power gets cut off for a split second.

[Tarquin]

fair enuf, sounds as though everything is fine with it then, she does pull quite a bit from around the 5k mark on like you metioned then the actual engagement around the 6000rpm mark which is again bout right in my case.
thanks for that Crapdaz much appreciated

[Crapdaz]

yeh 5k it pulls more, then pulls further when you hit vtec.
plus since you have the injen CAI it provides better breathing in the higher rpm.

[xxb4xx]

Hey Crapdaz,

Couldn't I just put a pod filter on the car without using a CAI setup?

It looks like the box can be removed and just your normal K&N filter can be put on the standard intake pipe?

There is no air flow meter on the box or anything?

yep? no?

[Min988]

yep, you can do it, my for sale thread has some pod cheapies if you want to try it.

[hisoka]

this will void your warranty. xxb4xx

something you will need later down the track on these hondas~

[euromandeluxe]

Hey Crapdaz,

Couldn't I just put a pod filter on the car without using a CAI setup?

It looks like the box can be removed and just your normal K&N filter can be put on the standard intake pipe?

There is no air flow meter on the box or anything?

yep? no?

You can do that, but you'll get heatsoak deluxe (the pod will suck hot air from the engine bay). This has been covered in about a billion threads before.

Do what I did - build a cheapo short ram intake with piping from an exhaust shop (free, if the guys are nice enough) and chuck a pod on the end. I plan on building an airbox and cold air feed for it later.

Cheapies!

[hisoka]

so why are js racing pods open engine bay pods. please explain to me how such a high profile company got this wrong, please explain. a company that only makes parts for honda btw.

[hooyn]

doesn't j's one have an airbox like thing ? i think if its a box theres a ram for it. just wondering...not trying to start an argument....

[euromandeluxe]

so why are js racing pods open engine bay pods. please explain to me how such a high profile company got this wrong, please explain. a company that only makes parts for honda btw.

No idea, simply quoting what I've read on these forums again and again; CAI > SRI for k series, because k-series engines produce a lot of heat.

Are those J's racing pods for the K24? Do they come with heat shielding/airbox setups, or are they completely exposed in the engine bay?

[Moey.C]

u could do what MANNNYY people do and have it expossed.. but with a pipe or leading to it from somewhere that air can blow str8 in.

[integral90]

No idea, simply quoting what I've read on these forums again and again; CAI > SRI for k series, because k-series engines produce a lot of heat.

Are those J's racing pods for the K24? Do they come with heat shielding/airbox setups, or are they completely exposed in the engine bay?

J's racing airbox is an enclosed airbox, not exposed pod. And it's not just k-series, most engines that are powered by explosions tend to get hot engine bays.

The J's racing airbox should fit but it might be with some difficulty as it's designed for the EuroR with the RBC and it's stock intake arm. But then again I fit the CL9 stock intake arm back onto the stock airbox with an RBC so anything can be done...

[euromandeluxe]

J's racing airbox is an enclosed airbox, not exposed pod. And it's not just k-series, most engines that are powered by explosions tend to get hot engine bays.

The J's racing airbox should fit but it might be with some difficulty as it's designed for the EuroR with the RBC and it's stock intake arm. But then again I fit the CL9 stock intake arm back onto the stock airbox with an RBC so anything can be done...

lol. Fair enough, thanks for that :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I'm too broke, so I'll stick to my student budget 'excuses' for mods. Some day :D

[xxb4xx]

Hey guys, I appreciate the feedback,

As for warranty the car is 2003, no warranty left that I'm aware of :)

I have heaps of extendable piping same as the oem pipe, that I can run through the guard and slap on a pod.. Paying 300-500 Or more for a pipe with a filter on it is rediculous in my opinion..

As also posted above might see what the local exhaust shop can do for me, and I'll get it powdercoated black for the ultimate ninja effect.

Might even have a chat to the boys at hyperflow, they made my suby CAI, see if maybe we can do a group buy so it's cheaper for all the tight asses like me

[aaronng]

so why are js racing pods open engine bay pods. please explain to me how such a high profile company got this wrong, please explain. a company that only makes parts for honda btw.

J's Racing pods for the Accord Euro come with a CF or FRP airbox enclosure with a cold air deflector down in the wheel well.

[aaronng]

The J's racing airbox should fit but it might be with some difficulty as it's designed for the EuroR with the RBC and it's stock intake arm. But then again I fit the CL9 stock intake arm back onto the stock airbox with an RBC so anything can be done...

It will fit without problems.

[Crapdaz]

Hey Crapdaz,

Couldn't I just put a pod filter on the car without using a CAI setup?

It looks like the box can be removed and just your normal K&N filter can be put on the standard intake pipe?

There is no air flow meter on the box or anything?

yep? no?
Yes you can, but will have heat soak. (in track application that would be better) in metro and suburban areas it will suck cause of start stop traffic.

Yes you can put a filter on it but you might need to fabricate a bracket to hold it up rather than dangling.


You can do that, but you'll get heatsoak deluxe (the pod will suck hot air from the engine bay). This has been covered in about a billion threads before.

Do what I did - build a cheapo short ram intake with piping from an exhaust shop (free, if the guys are nice enough) and chuck a pod on the end. I plan on building an airbox and cold air feed for it later.

Cheapies!
yes it'll suck but in track or spirited driving open pod would be better cause you still get air flow into the bay.

[euromandeluxe]

yes it'll suck but in track or spirited driving open pod would be better cause you still get air flow into the bay.

Oh, so heatsoak is only really a factor when velocity of airflow is low, and hot air lingers in the engine bay?

Thanks :thumbsup:

[Crapdaz]

yes suffers less when in motion.
When stationary or slower you will suffer sig and inclusive of hot days in slow traffic.

SRI more or less likely to gain less in dyno situations cause the blower is aimed at bumper.
Unless your engine bay is open and blower is aimed at the engine bay.

No worries buddy.

[jyh888]

Are cold air intakes street legal?? I'm aware that as long as the pod is enclosed it should be fine, but just want to confirm, spoke to NRMA n they don't seem to have any restrictions with intakes...Does any one know? I. Have the injen cai

[Riviera]

back on topic

using GOOGLE...
here is an article on how i-VTEC works for the K20A motor...

same technology...

its different to oldskool VTEC operation...

http://asia.vtec.net/article/k20a/

[euromandeluxe]

Are cold air intakes street legal?? I'm aware that as long as the pod is enclosed it should be fine, but just want to confirm, spoke to NRMA n they don't seem to have any restrictions with intakes...Does any one know? I. Have the injen cai

It generally depends state to state. I'm pretty sure oiled pods are a big no-no in a lot of states due to emissions laws (they reckon the 20ml of oil that could potentially be burned is unacceptable - reckon they've ever heard of the rotary engine before?)

Exposed pods are always dodgy, and cops will probably give you trouble for it unless its hidden (like a cai).

Just don't vtak past patrol cars!

[Crapdaz]

CAI is fine cause it's not within the engine bay.

SRI on the other case isn't if it's exposed, and big nono if it's oiled or dried pod and can't justify with police they fk you up still.
If you want to use SRI make sure you find someway to enclose it.

[aaronng]

Are cold air intakes street legal?? I'm aware that as long as the pod is enclosed it should be fine, but just want to confirm, spoke to NRMA n they don't seem to have any restrictions with intakes...Does any one know? I. Have the injen cai

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59568

[aaronng]

CAI is fine cause it's not within the engine bay.

SRI on the other case isn't if it's exposed, and big nono if it's oiled or dried pod and can't justify with police they fk you up still.
If you want to use SRI make sure you find someway to enclose it.

Depends on the cop inspecting your car. Some will defect you for CAI. :)

[Crapdaz]

Depends on the cop inspecting your car. Some will defect you for CAI. :)
now your scaring me, mine is a pipe with enclosed pod on it but will most likely get defected hahahaha

[euromandeluxe]

Nice info.

Also, back on topic. I hear there's multiple stages of engagement with the i-VTEC system. Is there a certain rpm at which each stage engages (i.e., stage 4 at ~6000rpm) or does engagement of the next stage also depend on throttle position?

Is the information about the K20A i-VTEC found here: http://asia.vtec.net/article/k20a/ exactly the same for the K24A?

[aaronng]

Nice info.

Also, back on topic. I hear there's multiple stages of engagement with the i-VTEC system. Is there a certain rpm at which each stage engages (i.e., stage 4 at ~6000rpm) or does engagement of the next stage also depend on throttle position?

Is the information about the K20A i-VTEC found here: http://asia.vtec.net/article/k20a/ exactly the same for the K24A?
No, there is only one VTEC crossover point for the Euro, and that is at 6000rpm engaging and can be as low as 5800rpm when disengaging.

That article doesn't apply to the Euro. It does apply to the base model Integra and Civic Sport.

[xxb4xx]

out of curiosity, I read that explanation of vtec, how would it all work using different cam specs? As in bigger cams.. Would it all kick in at the same time etc?

[hisoka]

just pushes the valves in even deeper i would assume ?

[integral90]

No, there is only one VTEC crossover point for the Euro, and that is at 6000rpm engaging and can be as low as 5800rpm when disengaging.

I think what he is referring to is the VTC? I can feel it in my car pulling from clutch out roll in 2nd. At about 3000rpm there is a noticeable surge, another at 4000rpm then vtec at 6000rpm.

[zeke]

So ARRONG, are you telling us there is only a 1000RPM window on the K24 ivtec aka 6000 to 7000 redline where your up on the higher cam . It sounds like a pretty small window to me. Where is that written. I think you ARe RONG.
Peak torque come in at 4600RPM. In your world that would leave her pretty breathless between 5000-6000RPM which it isn't.
Feels more like it comes on to cam at around 5000-5200RPM and its builds pretty linear from there.

Anyone else like to chip in on this one.

[integral90]

So ARRONG, are you telling us there is only a 1000RPM window on the K24 ivtec aka 6000 to 7000 redline where your up on the higher cam . It sounds like a pretty small window to me. Where is that written. I think you ARe RONG.
Peak torque come in at 4600RPM. In your world that would leave her pretty breathless between 5000-6000RPM which it isn't.
Feels more like it comes on to cam at around 5000-5200RPM and its builds pretty linear from there.

Anyone else like to chip in on this one.

Not smart to argue with the RONG. The crossover is at 6000rpm, I can get you video of a pretty noticeable VTEC crossover happening in mine at 6000rpm if you're not convinced.

That sweet spot at around 5500rpm is the torque and power both meeting near their peak. Nothing to do with VTEC. Why couldn't an engine make power for another 2500rpm after its peak torque? The K24 has a big stroke and VTEC crossover 1500rpm after peak torque... no reason why it wouldn't take a while for peak power to come after peak torque.

[Riviera]

zeke no need to be rude lol...

what may happen is that VTEC crossover will be at 6krpm but the VTC will kick in at a much lower rpm and this is probly what everyone is feeling....

try googling more info, i mean sum1 has to, to answer these questions...
why not make it urself...:thumbsup::thumbsup::honda:

[Riviera]

here you go some wikipedia information....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-VTEC#i-VTEC

heres a video on the R18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYvqVXLIT2s

heres a video comparing MIVEC VTEC and VVT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgDdbrMh6bo&feature=related


pretty interesting stuff..... all you have to do is google it....

[euromandeluxe]

So ARRONG, are you telling us there is only a 1000RPM window on the K24 ivtec aka 6000 to 7000 redline where your up on the higher cam . It sounds like a pretty small window to me. Where is that written. I think you ARe RONG.
Peak torque come in at 4600RPM. In your world that would leave her pretty breathless between 5000-6000RPM which it isn't.
Feels more like it comes on to cam at around 5000-5200RPM and its builds pretty linear from there.

Anyone else like to chip in on this one.

If you're talking about the CU2, I'm pretty sure the VTEC changeover for the CU2 was changed to ~5000rpm, down from the 6000rpm from the CL9. That's why you feel the 'surge' earlier (though I can barely feel it in the CL).
:)

[tony1234]

So ARRONG, are you telling us there is only a 1000RPM window on the K24 ivtec aka 6000 to 7000 redline where your up on the higher cam . It sounds like a pretty small window to me. Where is that written. I think you ARe RONG.
Peak torque come in at 4600RPM. In your world that would leave her pretty breathless between 5000-6000RPM which it isn't.
Feels more like it comes on to cam at around 5000-5200RPM and its builds pretty linear from there.

Anyone else like to chip in on this one.
He's right.On CL9 vtec crossover is 6K.On CU2 it's 5K.

[V205]

I can definitely feel my 2005 Euro surge power from about 6000rpm on.

[aaronng]

So ARRONG, are you telling us there is only a 1000RPM window on the K24 ivtec aka 6000 to 7000 redline where your up on the higher cam . It sounds like a pretty small window to me. Where is that written. I think you ARe RONG.
Peak torque come in at 4600RPM. In your world that would leave her pretty breathless between 5000-6000RPM which it isn't.
Feels more like it comes on to cam at around 5000-5200RPM and its builds pretty linear from there.

Anyone else like to chip in on this one.

We are talking about the CL9, which has VTEC crossover point at 6000rpm. Having torque at 4600rpm doesn't leave the car breathless at high RPM. There are many other brands of cars with peak torque at 4600rpm but can rev up to 7000 or 8000rpm. Peak torque tells you only PEAK torque. It doesn't tell you about torque spread.

[stink]

hi i've been following this post but one expression keeps confusing me
what does it mean when you say on "the bigger cams" ?
cheers

[zeke]

So the confusion is that we were both right ARRONGG.You were talking CL9 and I was talking CU2. I'll have my hand grenades back now please. May need to throw them another day.

[The X Man]

I barely feel any of this i-Vtec phenomenon as discussed here.

[zeke]

X MAN

Take the hand brake off.

Just knew i'd need those hand grenades. Inncommming!!!!!

[euromandeluxe]

I can definitely feel my 2005 Euro surge power from about 6000rpm on.

Really? As mentioned by others, to me it just seems like a gradual build, as if power increases steadily from ~4000rpm up, then increases with a slightly higher rate of change from 6000 up. This is with just the cheapo SRI.

What mods have you got to feel it so well?

[euromandeluxe]

I barely feel any of this i-Vtec phenomenon as discussed here.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/search.php?searchid=2868605

All the i-VTEC discussion you could ever want :)

[integral90]

hi i've been following this post but one expression keeps confusing me
what does it mean when you say on "the bigger cams" ?
cheers

Bigger lobes on the cams = more aggressive intake and exhaust of the cylinder


Really? As mentioned by others, to me it just seems like a gradual build, as if power increases steadily from ~4000rpm up, then increases with a slightly higher rate of change from 6000 up. This is with just the cheapo SRI.

What mods have you got to feel it so well?

On the stock Euro all I feel is a little blip at around 6000rpm that has died by around 6200rpm. The car is out of breath by then through a combination of; a low-end-torque-designed intake manifold that doesn't breath well at high rpm, not very big VTEC lobes and an ecu tuned to match both of these things

[Crapdaz]

I barely feel any of this i-Vtec phenomenon as discussed here.
hahah your not driving your car hard enough.


X MAN

Take the hand brake off.

Just knew i'd need those hand grenades. Inncommming!!!!!
rofl at your grenades;

[The X Man]

low-end-torque-designed intake manifold that doesn't breath well at high rpm

You can't be reffereing to the Euro could you? The Euro has NO low end torque at all. I reckon my penis has more torque at low revs :)

[xxb4xx]

I have to agree here.. I don't feel this V-tec stuff either.. I can hear a sound, but not really any pull..

but then again I was used to 3 years of 22psi.. LOL

The Euro feels like a leather clad wheel-barrow.

[Crapdaz]

I have to agree here.. I don't feel this V-tec stuff either.. I can hear a sound, but not really any pull..

but then again I was used to 3 years of 22psi.. LOL

The Euro feels like a leather clad wheel-barrow.

but as you have said you can't compare cause it's a diff category car.
plus with a force inducted car you won't feel the power until you hit a point and it hits you all at once.

Where as the N/A it gradually builds up similiar to if you had supercharger (linear power) & FI (exponential type power).

As you have said you downgraded from FI to N/A so you won't be able to tell the difference cause of the power difference from how the power is put out.

Why did you get a euro if you think it's a wheel barrow? :)

[integral90]

You can't be reffereing to the Euro could you? The Euro has NO low end torque at all. I reckon my penis has more torque at low revs :)

The way I see it, a stock Euro manual can be driven around day-to-day and rarely have to break around 2500rpm and it still copes. I'm not saying the Euro is a torque-monster by any means, but for a car that weighs between 1350-1450kg, with a 4-cylinder engine that makes it's peak torque and power up higher in the rev range, it does very well down low.

It's not V6, but it has been designed to compete with them in driveability, and yes the intake manifold has been designed to give low-end torque and driveability.

Also I feel sorry for your lady friends if your penis has more torque than a Euro :p

[integral90]

I have to agree here.. I don't feel this V-tec stuff either.. I can hear a sound, but not really any pull...

You'd notice it a lot more in a smaller engine. Drive a B18CR and tell me you don't feel the crossover :p

The K24 doesn't have a very aggressive crossover mostly because of the cams, but you can get a good crossover if you work on that. As you've said, Euro doesn't come out of the factory a sports car (even though it's suprisingly very sporty), but isn't that why you mod?

[xxb4xx]

Don't get me wrong, I knew what I was getting into when I bought the car..

I'm honestly suprised it's as powerful it is for a N/A 4 banger..,

I bought the Euro cause it had all the luxury perks including sunroof, SOME power.. I emphasise SOME.. and I can just start it and go, without worrying it was going to die every time I drove it more than 20mins.. LOL

oh, and I get 500k's a tank, compared to 320k's.. so yearh.. fuel econonomical is the keyz.

Also.. not to mention that I only have 3 points left on my license.. lost 9 points in 8 months..

[Crapdaz]

no one told you to boost when you see a radar aiming at you :)
yeh euro is top stuff for a family sedan...

[trism]

the exposed oiled pod isnt to do with emissions, its got to do with the car backfiring and setting the thing on fire

[zeke]

You can't be reffereing to the Euro could you? The Euro has NO low end torque at all. I reckon my penis has more torque at low revs :)

So X_MAN, that would make your penis all torque and no action.

Damn I'm running out of hand grenades. Incommmming!!!!

[aaronng]

You can't be reffereing to the Euro could you? The Euro has NO low end torque at all. I reckon my penis has more torque at low revs :)

The manifold is designed for torque at 2500 to about 5500 rpm. I drive between 1000 and 3000 rpm, so yeah, I spend most of the time in the torqueless world.

[Crapdaz]

can't compare with you guys but i find it (with RBC + CAI feed to SRI) it picks up a bit really quick around 4k then again when vtec hits at 6k, feels a bit slower when it hits almost cut off where you feel it lose a bit there..

[aaronng]

can't compare with you guys but i find it (with RBC + CAI feed to SRI) it picks up a bit really quick around 4k then again when vtec hits at 6k, feels a bit slower when it hits almost cut off where you feel it lose a bit there..

Need to compare to mine, which goes up but doesn't feel slower at cutoff, just flat all the way. You might be running a bit lean at redline.....

[Crapdaz]

yeh i think so, need a tune when i can be stuffed booking a time in with TODA
i am scared i won't be able to get onto their dyno cause of my kit.

[aaronng]

Take the front bumper off. Shouldn't take too long to do that.

[Crapdaz]

Take the front bumper off. Shouldn't take too long to do that.
alot of cable ties hahaha :p

My highlight of the day
I just drove back from concord on king georges rd with windows half down and then something goes crack on the window and lands on me (collar bone area in my shirt) i thought it was a rock, then my collar bone started getting itchy and i grabbed it and realised it was a christmas beetle then tossed it out the window, i was like WTF!

[Crapdaz]

Do you heeltoe with the euro on Track?

Do you find the gas pedal is too far in to heeltoe?

[aaronng]

Do you heeltoe with the euro on Track?

Do you find the gas pedal is too far in to heeltoe?

Yes I heel-toe, and no, the pedal is not far in. I blip near the middle or bottom of the accelerator. After getting used to the Euro, I find it difficult to heel-toe in a car with a regular top-hinged accelerator pedal.

[ig3o]

buy razo pedals.. i got the ones that extend the accel pedal.. it makes it alot easier to heel toe..

[aaronng]

Do you heeltoe with the euro on Track?

Do you find the gas pedal is too far in to heeltoe?

Also, you need to use your toes on the brakes, not the ball of your foot which is what people do when braking normally. That's why it is called heel-toe and not heel-ball.

[Crapdaz]

well i think last time i was at WP.

I tried having toes on brake but was a bit awkward so i had ball on brake and toes blipping.
need to try it in some twisties somewhere....

[aaronng]

well i think last time i was at WP.

I tried having toes on brake but was a bit awkward so i had ball on brake and toes blipping.
need to try it in some twisties somewhere....

You can do that too. TOV reviewers were doing that when they first reviewed the TSX. But it is better if you can do it the normal way with your toes on the brake.

[Crapdaz]

You can do that too. TOV reviewers were doing that when they first reviewed the TSX. But it is better if you can do it the normal way with your toes on the brake.
as ig30 said i think i need pedals to raise the accel pedal.

[aaronng]

as ig30 said i think i need pedals to raise the accel pedal.

Practising and mastering it > relying on parts to improve it. :p

[Crapdaz]

yeh true... :)

[integral90]

Yes I heel-toe, and no, the pedal is not far in. I blip near the middle or bottom of the accelerator. After getting used to the Euro, I find it difficult to heel-toe in a car with a regular top-hinged accelerator pedal.

I remember when you first told me I should learn the heel and toe :p

Those were a fun few weeks after :D

Yeah I heel and toe everytime I come up to a red light or before a corner now, force of habit. My passenger can't even tell anymore because it's just seamless, all you can feel is a difference in engine braking. But I haven't got your problem with doing it in other cars... is it a big problem or your foot just goes into the wrong position?

Rev-matching and heel and toe right now is REALLY hard with the leaking throttle body, makes the revs jump and fall on their own so... matching is mostly luck right now :p

[Crapdaz]

I remember when you first told me I should learn the heel and toe :p

Those were a fun few weeks after :D

Yeah I heel and toe everytime I come up to a red light or before a corner now, force of habit. My passenger can't even tell anymore because it's just seamless, all you can feel is a difference in engine braking. But I haven't got your problem with doing it in other cars... is it a big problem or your foot just goes into the wrong position?

Rev-matching and heel and toe right now is REALLY hard with the leaking throttle body, makes the revs jump and fall on their own so... matching is mostly luck right now :p
damn your lucky i don't get to drive my car enuf to practise it.
only like once a week and duration of the drive isn't long enuf either.

[integral90]

damn your lucky i don't get to drive my car enuf to practise it.
only like once a week and duration of the drive isn't long enuf either.

hehe. Just start by matching at higher RPM and then work your way down the revs. My first seamless heel-toe was 3rd to 2nd, about 3500rpm to 5500rpm. Just seems to be easily to match the revs higher up. But after a while I could heel-toe from like 1500rpm to 2500rpm where if you mess up it's much more noticeable

[felixd]

can u toe heel the auto ? :D

[aaronng]

can u toe heel the auto ? :D

You don't need to because you don't have a clutch. You don't need to revmatch when you downshift in an auto.