19" + pedders springs

[mr-k24]

hey guys... ive got the 06 accords with 19x8" rims... I'm interested in getting the pedders sports ryder springs (without coils) and yes i know its been brought up a numerous number of times... just want to ask because of the size of the rims, would this affect the performance in any way ??

thanks =)

[JohnL]

Huge wheels = :

Increased unsprung mass (weight) = worse handling.
Increased total static mass of car = less acceleration, worse braking performance.
Increased rotational mass of drivetrain = further impairs acceleration and braking (more so than increased static mass).

Very short and overly stiff sidewall = insufficient sidewall flexure = :

Increased sensitivity to static camber and dynamic camber changes.
Impaired handling and grip on less than very smooth road surfaces.
Increased ride harshness.
Increased likelihood of rim and sidewall damage.
Increased steering response.

Springs "without coils"?? That describes either a leaf spring or torsion bar...

[mr-k24]

ahh woops... i meant "springs without shocks" my bad ><

[JohnL]

I could say that "springs without shocks" is much much worse, but I won't pretend I don't understand your meaning...

Lowered springs will (should) have a higher than stock spring rate (to minimise bottoming out of the suspension due to reduced suspension travel inherant with a lower ride height). A stiffer spring will require a stiffer damper to avoid spring oscillation, poor handling and a 'bouncy' ride quality.

If the increase in spring rate is only slight then you may get away with the stock dampers, but it won't be ideal. In such a case you would hope the degree of ride height lowering were also only slight or the suspension will be more likely to bottom out (which has implcations for suspension damage as well as handling staibility / safety).

IMO you should fit good quality uprated dampers first (I'd recommend Bilstein or Koni), and only then save up for your springs. The dampers are more important than the springs are, i.e. you'll get a better handling car by fitting very good dampers to the stock springs than you'll get by fitting stiffer / lower springs to the stock dampers...

[CB7_OWNER]

JohnL

What type of handling characteristics can i expect from having shocks that are to stiff compared to the springs?

What im trying to refer to is, having koni yellow's at 100&#37; stiffness vs 50% stiffness on springs with springs rates only slightly higher than stock cb7 springs. I remember asking you a while back, what stiffness your running on your koni yellows, and recall you saying 100% both front and back? i also read somewhere, that having the shocks at 100% stiffness can effect the life of the shock absorber.

[JohnL]

JohnL

What type of handling characteristics can i expect from having shocks that are to stiff compared to the springs?

What im trying to refer to is, having koni yellow's at 100&#37; stiffness vs 50% stiffness on springs with springs rates only slightly higher than stock cb7 springs. I remember asking you a while back, what stiffness your running on your koni yellows, and recall you saying 100% both front and back? i also read somewhere, that having the shocks at 100% stiffness can effect the life of the shock absorber.

With more time and experimentation with my Konis, I've since changed my opinion on setting them up (with the stock springs). Hey, full soft seemed a setting for wimps, and I'm more hard-core than that (I'd like to think...).

When I first began experimenting with the Konis I was varying the settings between near full stiff (not quite full stiff) and half stiff. I've now spent time with the settings nearly everywhere from near full stiff to full soft, and am now at 1/4 turn from full soft which seems a pretty good setting compromise (there are good and bad things about a stiffer setting and good and less good things about a softer setting, but we need a balance between the good and the bad).

The reason I initially liked a stiff rebound setting was that I found that it generally gave somewhat better steering and handling response than half stiff. At half stiff I found the steering / handling response was somewhat less, leading me to assume that it would be a lot less than that at full soft (which I've found is not actually the case, it changed little between half stiff and full soft).

The dangers of making assumptions... Anyway, I think this also tends to suggest that the adjustment isn't very linear, i.e. X&#176; turn from full soft is a lesser amount of stiffness change than X&#176; from full stiff (which re-inforces something I've read elsewhere).

Because of this assumption I didn't venture into the full soft end of adjustment for quite a while (also because adjusting my rear Konis is such complete and time consuming pain involving dissasembly of the coilover unit etc, I didn't want to set them soft when I strongly suspected they would be softer than I'd like at the soft end, and then have to stiffen them up again...).

So what's wrong with very stiff rebound? I liked the responsiveness at the stiff end very much, but after a while I started to notice that the stiff rebound also caused the springs to 'pump down', which caused some occasional strange and disconcerting handling characteristics (odd moments of understeer or oversteer, as well as occasional poor response).

'Pumping down' of the springs occurs because at excessively stiff damper rebound the spring isn't strong enough to quickly re-extend the damper after the spring / damper has been compressed. This can occur over a succession of bumps, each bump causing just a bit more 'pump down' then the next bump then the next...

In more severe cases the suspension may even bottom out (without having hit a particularly big bump, happened a few times to my car when I don't think it normally would have), but even when it doesn't the tyre contact patch at the affected suspension becomes momentarily light and the weight distribution of the car is momentarily affected, which causes the weird handling ('weird' = special technical term used by some racing drivers...).

With my car (running very stiff rebound with soft springs) it handled OK most of the time, but reasonably often would behave in an unexpected manner (not a good thing).

So, I then tried full soft (which meant dismantling the rear coilover to adjust the Koni, never get ones that don't have the external adjuster...). I found full soft to be a little too 'bouncy' (i.e. as the suspension decompresses after it's been compressed the chassis rises a little too far then drops back down).

What I've personally found to be the best all round damper setting (or at least to feel best, a subjective test of handling and consistency of handling behaviour...) with stock springs is to set the damper rebound as soft as possible without the suspension becoming 'bouncy' (which in my case is about 1/4 turn from soft).

With the stock springs, Koni recommends using their dampers at full soft. My experience is that full soft may be a little too soft, but I would strongly recommend starting to experiment with settings from the soft end rather than from the stiff end (which is the opposite of what I dumbly did when I first fitted my Konis).

Stiffer valving and wear etc:
My understanding is that stiffer valving creates higher internal pressures within the damper, and this creates more loadings on internal components (valves / seals) and higher damper temperatures, and this is why stiffer valving (or valve adjustment setting) can reduce the longevity of any damper (particularly lesser quality units).

The stiffer the spring the stiffer the damper valving needs to be, thus the higher the internal pressures etc. This is at least one reason why you need good quality dampers when using springs with a significantly higher than stock rating (i.e. so the stiffer spring doesn't wear / blow the damper too quickly).

PS Nearly forgot; the Koni distributor advised me never to set the Konis all the way to full stiff because this can all but close the valve off. This may make the damper stiffness in the very last few &#176; of adjustment exponentially stiffer, i.e. way too stiff for any remotely reasonable spring rate.

I was advised that if a very stiff setting were required then the adjuster should be turned all the way to stiff, then backed off until you can just feel the adjuster move. I found that as the valve is backed off from full stiff there is a small amount of 'slack' in the adjuster mechanism, then the valve starts to move, which is what you do for a very stiff setting, i.e. back off till the valve just starts to move.

[HKS200]

save your money and go with coilovers you'll find there better in the long run. but yeh pedders springs are pretty good.

having large wheels isn't really that bad as long as you get the right tyre size to match your stock rolling diameter. but yeh if they are overly heavy wheels they will wear your drivetrain components a lot faster depending on how you drive of course

[JohnL]

save your money and go with coilovers you'll find there better in the long run.

What do you base this statement upon? Despite looking pretty, most aftermarket 'coilovers' are not actually very good, though many are very stiff (note that 'good' does not necessarily = stiff'...).

Read this page:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html


but yeh pedders springs are pretty good.

Perhaps, but Pedders stuff costs a bomb and isn't even made by them. 'Their' products are made by other companies and Pedders then marks them up to a huge degree. I forget who actually makes the Pedders 'branded' springs, but find out because I'll bet you can buy them under the actual manufacturers brand for a lot less money...


having large wheels isn't really that bad

Bad enough if you go too far, which is the current trend I'm afraid (going too far that is...).


as long as you get the right tyre size to match your stock rolling diameter. but yeh if they are overly heavy wheels they will wear your drivetrain components a lot faster depending on how you drive of course

As much as I personally dislike huge wheels (and the rubber band tyres that go with them), and would blame them for anything bad if I could, I can't see them causing a problem with increased drivetrain wear.

If you buy huge wheels (and the rubber bands that fit around them), just be aware that they are more of a fashion statement than a performance upgrade. Some increase in wheel size over OE (and suitable reduction in tyre aspect) is generally a good thing, but the extreme of this presents all sorts of problems including less predictable handling.

[felixd]

get eibach and koni shocks :D