VTC angle

[Quest]

Can someone confirm what the current angle of the VTC is. Is it currently stock @ max 25 degrees....meaning, any engine management software can't advance this further without you having to machine this part...

I did a search for 'VTC' in this forum, and did not find a single thread?

[EG5]

yes 25 degrees on stock k24a3 euro motor

[Quest]

yes 25 degrees on stock k24a3 euro motor

Thanks for the prompt response EG5...my next question :

Has anyone successfully machined this in their writeup to 45 degrees or less?...looking for a decent writeup with pics to see what's involved..searched the net and could only find seperate pics and seperate discussions in different forums...even heard of one guy of using his dremel to machine this DIY....I have a Dremel, but in no way confident enough to tackle this DIY...

If someone has some personal experience with some good pointers:wave:

Thanks

[Chris_F]

I was looking to buy a 45 degree VTC that had already been machined by someone else... but they are very hard to come buy.

You could always buy an accord euro VTC gear from Honda and then find a machinist who knows what they're doing..

The other option is to run the 50 degree VTC from the k20... but you would probably have to check clearances on your engine

[EG5]

We are using 50 degree VTC on k24a3 without any problem
Im using hondata kpro ecu

[Quest]

We are using 50 degree VTC on k24a3 without any problem

With no valve to piston contact?....

From Hondata website
Although you could probably purchase and bolt on an RSX VTC mechanism for 50 degrees travel, there is less valve to piston clearance on the TSX pistons. Our measurements suggest 45 degrees maximum cam movement is much safer. Allowing the full 50 degrees movement leads to a greater risk of valve to piston contact should you accidentally mis-shift and over-rev

[CRXer]

thats just the risk u take with cheaper 50 deg vtc option

for most people doing this,like EG5 above,the repair expense is smaller & the reward outweighs the risk for the dollars spent.

if ur on tight budget,& have limited access to sourcing & rebuilding motors & parts,then maybe the extra expense up front of just machining the 25deg vtc to suit,will work out cheaper & give u more peace of mind in the long run.

[integral90]

Can someone confirm what the current angle of the VTC is. Is it currently stock @ max 25 degrees....meaning, any engine management software can't advance this further without you having to machine this part...

I did a search for 'VTC' in this forum, and did not find a single thread?

A good way to overcome this is to get very aggressive cams. I know the Toda Spec C cams have a max safe VTC of 20 degrees or something. That would save you the headache of getting the 25VTC machined

[EUR003act]

With no valve to piston contact?....

From Hondata website
Although you could probably purchase and bolt on an RSX VTC mechanism for 50 degrees travel, there is less valve to piston clearance on the TSX pistons. Our measurements suggest 45 degrees maximum cam movement is much safer. Allowing the full 50 degrees movement leads to a greater risk of valve to piston contact should you accidentally mis-shift and over-rev

he's using it in a full race/track car...

if he blows an engine, he just swaps a new one in....

on your daily driver... risk it if you want :)

[EG5]

With no valve to piston contact?....

From Hondata website
Although you could probably purchase and bolt on an RSX VTC mechanism for 50 degrees travel, there is less valve to piston clearance on the TSX pistons. Our measurements suggest 45 degrees maximum cam movement is much safer. Allowing the full 50 degrees movement leads to a greater risk of valve to piston contact should you accidentally mis-shift and over-rev

We dont max it up to 50 degrees on kpro.
If im not mistaken we only run 39-41 degrees max.

Yes the risk is there if you miss shift or over rev.

[Aslam]

Just a small revival of this thread, I seriously would like to try this.....
Will I get major gains getting the VTC machined to 45 degrees and tuning with Emanage
while only running exhaust, decat , CAI (SRI) and DC Sports header ?????

[aaronng]

Just a small revival of this thread, I seriously would like to try this.....
Will I get major gains getting the VTC machined to 45 degrees and tuning with Emanage
while only running exhaust, decat , CAI (SRI) and DC Sports header ?????

Emanage alone can't control VTC. You need a Vmanage with the Emanage.

[Aslam]

Emanage alone can't control VTC. You need a Vmanage with the Emanage.
DAMN that sucks :thumbdwn:
I must then research a locally produced product called Uni-q plus. Hope that will can control VTC..... I always thought Emanage ultimate could control it ....

Be that as it may, if I find a way of controlling VTC, will I get major gains with my above setup ???

[tony1234]

This Thursday i'm getting a Haltech Interceptor installed and tuned by Adrian at Toda.you cant adjust the VTC angle with this unit but vtec crossover can be lowered.I think this would be a more viable(cheaper) option.As you all know vtec is at 6K on the CL9 so i'm hoping after the tune it'll be approx.5K.This should make the power delivery more linear.Adrian said with my mods(Comptech Icebox with K&N and Comptech header)i should pickup approx 15kw in the mid and 5kw at the top.mmmmm.Anyway i'll post my opinion after i've driven the car for a few days.

[Aslam]

This Thursday i'm getting a Haltech Interceptor installed and tuned by Adrian at Toda.you cant adjust the VTC angle with this unit but vtec crossover can be lowered.I think this would be a more viable(cheaper) option.As you all know vtec is at 6K on the CL9 so i'm hoping after the tune it'll be approx.5K.This should make the power delivery more linear.Adrian said with my mods(Comptech Icebox with K&N and Comptech header)i should pickup approx 15kw in the mid and 5kw at the top.mmmmm.Anyway i'll post my opinion after i've driven the car for a few days.

Nice Tony, pls keep us informed....
A buddy of mine just finished installing header and exhaust and Unichip with lowered VTEC point, read below the actual mail he sent me.

"Ok, just picked up the car. Only drove 2-3kms in traffic so haven't had a real chance to put it through its paces yet, but definitely feels a lot smoother across the rpm range.

Quick look over dyno sheet.

Power peak-
Before:
103.2kw @ 6500rpm
After:
114.9kw @ 7000rpm

Torque peak (calculated at the flywheel)-
Before:
202.5Nm @ 3000rpm
After:
219.7Nm @ 3000rpm

rpm limiter now at 7500rpm as apposed to 7000rpm before.

Vtec definitely comes in sooner, at around 5500rpm. The dip before vtec (on the power graph) is still there but less pronounced. the drop-off in torque after 6000rpm is less and much smoother.

Will scan graphs tonite and mail."

Later
G

[tony1234]

Nice Tony, pls keep us informed....
A buddy of mine just finished installing header and exhaust and Unichip with lowered VTEC point, read below the actual mail he sent me.

"Ok, just picked up the car. Only drove 2-3kms in traffic so haven't had a real chance to put it through its paces yet, but definitely feels a lot smoother across the rpm range.

Quick look over dyno sheet.

Power peak-
Before:
103.2kw @ 6500rpm
After:
114.9kw @ 7000rpm

Torque peak (calculated at the flywheel)-
Before:
202.5Nm @ 3000rpm
After:
219.7Nm @ 3000rpm

rpm limiter now at 7500rpm as apposed to 7000rpm before.

Vtec definitely comes in sooner, at around 5500rpm. The dip before vtec (on the power graph) is still there but less pronounced. the drop-off in torque after 6000rpm is less and much smoother.

Will scan graphs tonite and mail."

Later
G
Looks good.Please post the graphs.17Nm in torque at 3K is interesting.

[Aslam]

I am waiting for him to mail me the graphs, I will try to post it for you.

[tony1234]

I am waiting for him to mail me the graphs, I will try to post it for you.
Does your friend have 2.0ltr.or 2.4ltr.engine.?

[Aslam]

Does your friend have 2.0ltr.or 2.4ltr.engine.?

He has the 2.4
PM me your email, I just received the graph, but it is in PDF format.I will just mail it to you......

[felixd]

just post it up here :D

[aaronng]

He has the 2.4
PM me your email, I just received the graph, but it is in PDF format.I will just mail it to you......
What ECU did your friend use?

[tony1234]

What ECU did your friend use?
Unichip.

[Quest]

just post it up here :D

Here it is.....I was copied as well

[Aslam]

Thanks Quest ....
Forgot to ask if he was using Uni-Q+ ????

[aaronng]

That is a pretty nice gain there. Torque gains all around. Is the before dyno fully stock? Or is that with header and exhaust but without unichip?

[Aslam]

The before dyno is as stock as they come :thumbsup:

[npcan2]

Revival to this thread...

Has anyone successfully had their VTC mechanism machined to 45 degrees??
If so, how much did it cost, and what were the power gains??

cheers

[oongie]

just found this on heel toe
http://www.heeltoeauto.com/Honda-Genuine-VTC-Actuator-RSX-S-K20-iVTEC-pr-65268.html
rsx-s vtc actuator...
Would this be 50 degree?
pretty cheap...

[npcan2]

yeh, its 50degrees. *sigh*

[EG5]

We used 50 degree vtc too on our egk24a. Too bad we didnt do comparison between 25 degree vs 50 degree VTC.

[oongie]

why sigh at 50 degree?
Kpro your engine to max out at 45?
Dont overrev and you should be fine! Much easier than machining your 25 degree vtc actuator!
Yonas, the 50 degree actuator and KPRO should be enough to net awesome gains?

[integral90]

the 50 degree actuator and KPRO should be enough to net awesome gains?

Yeah, big gains

[oongie]

Might be an idea to get the 06 tsc cams as well...

[npcan2]

What kw gains are you looking at with K-Pro and 50deg VTC with I/H/E already installed?

[oongie]

dunno... more torque...?
I remember reading about Yonas's EGk24 and with the VTC advanced the engine made something a real dramatic difference

[Quest]

Has onyone successfully managed to address the FULL 25 degrees of the VTC with your piggyback ECU? As far as I know (Hondata comment), only 20 degrees is addressed by the stock ECU....There's an extra 5 degrees to play with....

http://www.heeltoeauto.com/Hondata-K-Pro-DUAL-Acura-TSX-04-06-K24-with-DBW-ECU-5AT-6MT-pr-64576.html

"The stock TSX ECU limits the cam advance to 20 degrees. (even though the mechanism is capable of 25 degrees)"

[oongie]

Piggyback ecu won't advance vtc hence the need for a kpro

[npcan2]

unless you get the v-manage. right?

Could the v-manage work with a Haltech platinum interceptor?

[oongie]

Couldnt find enough info in regards to E-manage + V-manage..
I did start a thread but no one could help.
If all the V-manage is doing is VTC and cam's should'nt be a problem with the interceptor but, you may need to do some custom wiring to the harness.
I know greddy have a harness to run both EMU and VM ...

[integral90]

What kw gains are you looking at with K-Pro and 50deg VTC with I/H/E already installed?

From discussion I've had with other members, I don't think the stock cams will surpass 140kW atw. As oongie said; the biggest gains would be in midrange torque. With the stock 25VTC Chris F was able to make gains of 30kW atw in the midrange, so with a 45VTC it'd be very interesting...

Oongie, if you're planning on running 45VTC then I'd invest in an RBC manifold

[oongie]

I am thinking of running the 06 tsx cam Exhaust Cam with K20 Intake Cam with 45 degree VTC. all on Kpro or V+E Manage (not too sure about the management side of things)
But instead of the RBC I was thinking the RRC intake manifold...

[snYpz]

I am thinking of running the 06 tsx cam Exhaust Cam with K20 Intake Cam with 45 degree VTC. all on Kpro or V+E Manage (not too sure about the management side of things)
But instead of the RBC I was thinking the RRC intake manifold...

From what i gather, 04 and 06 exhaust cams are the same. Only change was the intake cam. I could be wrong, but i think the tsx intake cam is better than the the ones on the k20?

Im planning to have my VTC machined to 45 degrees, but the risk of having it machined incorrectly and someone stuffing up is my major concern. Ive heard that quite a few ppl run 50 degree VTC off the k20 and they havent had any issues. Just make sure there is enough clearance. Im planning to run k-pro (once its back) and control VTC to max out at 40 degrees.

Intake cams, im planning to go 06 tsx. The 06 cams should be the same as our 06+ euros right?
Has anyone been able to source 06 intake cams?

Running RBC would render higher power at higher rpms but would it be worth the loss of torque down low on our little honda engines... :(

[integral90]

From what i gather, 04 and 06 exhaust cams are the same. Only change was the intake cam. I could be wrong, but i think the tsx intake cam is better than the the ones on the k20?

Im planning to have my VTC machined to 45 degrees, but the risk of having it machined incorrectly and someone stuffing up is my major concern. Ive heard that quite a few ppl run 50 degree VTC off the k20 and they havent had any issues. Just make sure there is enough clearance. Im planning to run k-pro (once its back) and control VTC to max out at 40 degrees.

Intake cams, im planning to go 06 tsx. The 06 cams should be the same as our 06+ euros right?
Has anyone been able to source 06 intake cams?

Running RBC would render higher power at higher rpms but would it be worth the loss of torque down low on our little honda engines... :(

The TSX '06 cams are different to our Euro '06 cams. They're basically a K20A VTEC lobe with a larger primary lobe.

The RBC manifold will make more power in the low end and midrange than the RBB if you're using 45VTC.

[snYpz]

integral90, have you researched much when comparing 06 intake cams with aftermarket such as brian crower stage 2, buddyclub, skunk etc?
Im leaning towards goining tsx intake cams just to be safe...

Im planning for 06 intake cams, 50VTC (tuned max to 40 degrees just to be safe), toda headers/ASP/hytech/Weapon-r, Fujitsubo exhaust and k-pro... on my auto :( hehe

[integral90]

integral90, have you researched much when comparing 06 intake cams with aftermarket such as brian crower stage 2, buddyclub, skunk etc?
Im leaning towards goining tsx intake cams just to be safe...

Im planning for 06 intake cams, 50VTC (tuned max to 40 degrees just to be safe), toda headers/ASP/hytech/Weapon-r, Fujitsubo exhaust and k-pro... on my auto :( hehe

I didn't really do any proper research into cams, but I wanted to use the '06 TSX cams. Mostly because of the quality, fuel economy and smooth idle - but you'd find all of those with certain aftermarket cams. I assume you'd need to swap to the 06' TSX valvetrain to safely run the larger cam lobes as well. If you wanted a more educated opinion on cams for the K24 then you'd be better to PM some of the traders or K-builders on the forum.

What bolt ons are you planning? I might be selling a few you'd be interested in

[snYpz]

I didn't really do any proper research into cams, but I wanted to use the '06 TSX cams. Mostly because of the quality, fuel economy and smooth idle - but you'd find all of those with certain aftermarket cams. I assume you'd need to swap to the 06' TSX valvetrain to safely run the larger cam lobes as well. If you wanted a more educated opinion on cams for the K24 then you'd be better to PM some of the traders or K-builders on the forum.

What bolt ons are you planning? I might be selling a few you'd be interested in

Hmm thats a good point, i never thought about the valvetrain...havent done any research in that regards.

I was after a good quality race header, so atm Toda, Feels, Weapon-r, but most likely toda. I know you have J's, but i dont want to play around with the subframe.
I see that you're parting out and going into a new project?

What other bolt-ons have you got?

PM me how much you want to let your TB for ;)

[HondaRacer]

integral90, have you researched much when comparing 06 intake cams with aftermarket such as brian crower stage 2, buddyclub, skunk etc?
Im leaning towards goining tsx intake cams just to be safe...

Im planning for 06 intake cams, 50VTC (tuned max to 40 degrees just to be safe), toda headers/ASP/hytech/Weapon-r, Fujitsubo exhaust and k-pro... on my auto :( hehe

where you get K-Pro ? hondata don't offer dual K-Pro anymore :( Without good engine managment you won't get smooth engine work with 06 tsx cams and 45 degree VTC.

[snYpz]

I emailed Doug at Hondata a few months ago, it seems like they are working on something and that it should be back at the end of this year...fingers crossed!

[HondaRacer]

I emailed Doug at Hondata a few months ago, it seems like they are working on something and that it should be back at the end of this year...fingers crossed!

wow, that is great news !

[Aslam]

wow, that is great news !

I hope this is the truth !!!
Cant wait !

[EUR003act]

From discussion I've had with other members, I don't think the stock cams will surpass 140kW atw. As oongie said; the biggest gains would be in midrange torque. With the stock 25VTC Chris F was able to make gains of 30kW atw in the midrange, so with a 45VTC it'd be very interesting...

Oongie, if you're planning on running 45VTC then I'd invest in an RBC manifold

with stock cams car is capable of exceeding 140kw WITH higher rev limit :) with 8,400rpm rev limit, stock cams can get up to about 155kw :) depending on other mods

[EUR003act]

where you get K-Pro ? hondata don't offer dual K-Pro anymore :( Without good engine managment you won't get smooth engine work with 06 tsx cams and 45 degree VTC.

dont offer dual ecu anymore?!?! :( thats gay!

meh wasnt that great, you still lost cruise control with that setup :(

[snYpz]

^nah not too concerned about cruise control, dodnt know where to put my feet when its in cruise mode lol

What mods did you have eur003act and how much power you put down?

i wonder if there could be another EMS besides k-pro that can also control VTC.
My budget has become a bit tighter since we are buying our first home as well as some investment plans.

Im going to go toda or weapon r header, legalis r catback, 06 tsx intake cam, VTC and an EMS that can tune VTC.

[HondaRacer]

^nah not too concerned about cruise control, dodnt know where to put my feet when its in cruise mode lol

What mods did you have eur003act and how much power you put down?

i wonder if there could be another EMS besides k-pro that can also control VTC.
My budget has become a bit tighter since we are buying our first home as well as some investment plans.

Im going to go toda or weapon r header, legalis r catback, 06 tsx intake cam, VTC and an EMS that can tune VTC.

it's possible with Unichip to control VTC, but you need to play with aditional relays. Good tuner can mod Unichip to control VTC :)

[EUR003act]

^nah not too concerned about cruise control, dodnt know where to put my feet when its in cruise mode lol

What mods did you have eur003act and how much power you put down?

i wonder if there could be another EMS besides k-pro that can also control VTC.
My budget has become a bit tighter since we are buying our first home as well as some investment plans.

Im going to go toda or weapon r header, legalis r catback, 06 tsx intake cam, VTC and an EMS that can tune VTC.

Im putting down 141kwatw... Havent done anything with mine in ages, costs sooooo much :(

Mods:
Unorthadox Racing lightened/underdrive pulley set
Gates Micro-V high performance belt
TODA Racing CL7 EuroR headers
Metal Hi Flow catalytic converter
Comptech USA cat-back 2.5inch exhaust
-Custom flange matched to 60mm TODA pipe
Acura RSX Type-S K20Z1 cylinder head
-Portflow USA port and polished
-Full radius competition exhaust valve job
-Multi-angle competition intake valve job
-De-shrouded valves & polished chambers
-Surfaced deck to mirror finish
-Brass valve guides
Acura RSX Type-S K20Z1 valve springs
Acura RSX Type-S K20Z1 retainers
Acura RSX Type-S K20Z1 valves
Honda OEM CL9 25 degree VTC actuator
Cometic 0.030” competition headgasket
APR K20/K24 competition headstuds
JDM RSP intake manifold
-Ported plenum inlet to 66mm
-Blended/Polished plenum
-Full runner port work/port matched
-Blended Runners
Power Rev Racing K20A3 thermal intake manifold gasket
Power Rev Racing K20A3 throttle body spacer
-Ported to 66mm
Autobahn88 Racing silicon CL7 Euro-R radiator hoses
MUGEN 1.3bar competition radiator cap
Mobil 1 SuperSyn full synthetic 0W-40 motor oil
Custom throttle body coolant bypass
Custom made 66mm K20A/J32A3 throttle body gaskets
Custom made 3inch aluminium short ram intake and cold air intake
K&N 3inch inlet 6.5inch hi flow pod filter

[Aslam]

Im putting down 141kwatw... Havent done anything with mine in ages, costs sooooo much :(

Mods:
Unorthadox Racing lightened/underdrive pulley set
Gates Micro-V high performance belt
TODA Racing CL7 EuroR headers
Metal Hi Flow catalytic converter
Comptech USA cat-back 2.5inch exhaust
-Custom flange matched to 60mm TODA pipe
Acura RSX Type-S K20Z1 cylinder head
-Portflow USA port and polished
-Full radius competition exhaust valve job
-Multi-angle competition intake valve job
-De-shrouded valves & polished chambers
-Surfaced deck to mirror finish
-Brass valve guides
Acura RSX Type-S K20Z1 valve springs
Acura RSX Type-S K20Z1 retainers
Acura RSX Type-S K20Z1 valves
Honda OEM CL9 25 degree VTC actuator
Cometic 0.030” competition headgasket
APR K20/K24 competition headstuds
JDM RSP intake manifold
-Ported plenum inlet to 66mm
-Blended/Polished plenum
-Full runner port work/port matched
-Blended Runners
Power Rev Racing K20A3 thermal intake manifold gasket
Power Rev Racing K20A3 throttle body spacer
-Ported to 66mm
Autobahn88 Racing silicon CL7 Euro-R radiator hoses
MUGEN 1.3bar competition radiator cap
Mobil 1 SuperSyn full synthetic 0W-40 motor oil
Custom throttle body coolant bypass
Custom made 66mm K20A/J32A3 throttle body gaskets
Custom made 3inch aluminium short ram intake and cold air intake
K&N 3inch inlet 6.5inch hi flow pod filter

How you tuning with all these mods ?

[EUR003act]

How you tuning with all these mods ?

its was running 133kwatw without tuning :) lol

tuned now with Greddy Emanage... (figures are on different days so not comparable tho)

was looking at adding vmanage to fatten up my midrange...

need to sort out my gearbox first (wrong bearing was installed) so i can have my LSD back in... cant put all that power down in 1st without spinning the wheel

[Aslam]

its was running 133kwatw without tuning :) lol

tuned now with Greddy Emanage... (figures are on different days so not comparable tho)

was looking at adding vmanage to fatten up my midrange...

need to sort out my gearbox first (wrong bearing was installed) so i can have my LSD back in... cant put all that power down in 1st without spinning the wheel

Impressive what the stock ECU can handle, now just for Hondata to release a flash pro or similar for our cars !!!!!!

[Quest]

it's possible with Unichip to control VTC, but you need to play with aditional relays. Good tuner can mod Unichip to control VTC :)

Please explain which additional relays you are talking about - product code / description / photo

[aaronng]

Last I checked, relays were switches. So I am also wondering how do relays allow a Unichip to control VTC.

[HondaRacer]

Please explain which additional relays you are talking about - product code / description / photo

I don't have, but good Unichip tuners know how to make VTC work ;)

[Aslam]

I don't have, but good Unichip tuners know how to make VTC work ;)

But the inventors/manufacturers of Unichip (Dastek) is right here in South Africa and they cannot make it work