VTEC debate/discussion

[XXpl0Sive]

VTEC only works in high RPMs, therefore a VTEC car is just like a non-VTEC car at low RPMs. And since most people drive at low RPMs most of the time, VTEC is a waste of money.

Explain the validity of this comment.

[2ds]

it's not valid seeing as honda don't suplly all their cars with vtec only the more performance orientated models.


i think ? =)

-2ds

[XXpl0Sive]

Honda uses VTEC for fuel economy and performance. The new accord, a 145kw 2.2 Litre engine does less than 10L/100km city driving :wink:

[SPEEDCORE]

Well that may be true of the past years, but as far as I know Vtec technology is now in every single vehicle honda releases.

The problem I see with that comment in the first post is that, it is not a waste of money.......... two different cam profiles, one to still give you good drivability around town, the second to bitch slap a few V6 and V8's around :lol:

I honestly think that Vtec is more suited to city driving than a turbo car.... I mean, at least you can rev to a touch over 5k without the ears of people aound you pricking up thinkin hello where as your average turbo car out there 3 k and pssssssssssht! Would be annoying to me!

Just my opinion,
SPEEDY!

[fried]

i think it depends on the person.

for instance, i think me spending the extramoney to buy a vtir dc2 instead of a gsi, i have sorta peace of mind and like assurance my car can perform, in this instance, i dont think ive wasted money.

yes its true that i dont alwasy use vtec, but when i want to, i know its there. but again thats my personal opinion.

and again, it also depends on the driver, like me with vtec and soemone with out, they can still beat me cos im a bad driver.

but if u think about it, that statement, about vtec vs no vtec, is only applicable to dc2s and some egs and eks, and the 95 preludes... where they have models with and models without vtec....

every honda after that, AFAIK, comes with some sort of vtec, whether it be the all out sports vtec, or the i-vtec, or the e-vtec, like fuel economic vtec etc, rather than performance DOHC vtec.

ALL that said, does anybody understand any or all of the newer breed of vtec out there from other brands? like toyotas vvti etc? appearently they kick in only around 3k for low comp *vtec* and again at 6k for the hi comp *vtec*, but then doesnt that negate the statement *vtec only works in works in hi revs*..... like for honda yes... but the new breeds and versions of *vtec*?!!??!

[7th Gen]

it's not valid seeing as honda don't suplly all their cars with vtec only the more performance orientated models.


i think ? =)

-2ds

CR-V/MDX has VTEC, also both of the new Accords, so excepting the Euro Accord ('sports sedan'), would you call a 4WD a 'performance oriented model'?

only the really low range hondas do not have VTEC - base model Jazz and 7th gen Civic sedan (like mine - BOO HOO!)

but it would make good marketing and engineering sense to introduce some sort of VTEC across the whole range - either hi-po VTEC or fuel economy/driveability VTEC

[sesshoumaru]

Of course buying a VTEC model is a waste of money if you arn't going to use it. That's why there are CXI, GLi etc available.

If anything VTEC is a cost effective developement. You save petrol if you are just driving normally, but are still able to attain high performance by reving to the VTEC range.

[wynode]

VTEC only works in high RPMs, therefore a VTEC car is just like a non-VTEC car at low RPMs. And since most people drive at low RPMs most of the time, VTEC is a waste of money.


That comment is very biased (then aren't we all!).

Everyone has this misconception that VTEC makes your car go super fast. This isn't true. VTEC was introduced to give you daily drivability while giving you a good top end when you put your foot down.

Hence, VTEC is when you want to bring out the performance of your car. If/when someone drives fast and they are pushing their car, the tacho is always going to be above around 4.5K RPM. Hence thats the reason (well one reason) that VTEC is suited to high RPM.

Even turbo cars don't deliver full boost untill you are above a certain RPM (or even a certain gear in some cases). It's pretty much the same story. If you are driving your car hard/fast then you will be revving it out. To me it sounds like the comment that was made was assuming you always drive under 4,500 RPM.

Pretty much all those FAST turbo cars out there make all their power high in the rev range. That comment is just narrow minded and taken out of the blue.

[Setanta]

From my viewpoint, it's a valid comment if you are a granny driving a performance VTEC car (mind you, I've met a few grannies that wring the crap out of their cars too :p). Otherwise, the whole purpose IS to give you a car that has the best of both worlds when you want it.

The comment totally ignores all the VTEC-E cars though :?

I've seen this argument on user groups before - usually it's just trolling.

[fried]

Everyone has this misconception that VTEC makes your car go super fast. This isn't true. VTEC was introduced to give you daily drivability while giving you a good top end when you put your foot down.

Hence, VTEC is when you want to bring out the performance of your car. If/when someone drives fast and they are pushing their car, the tacho is always going to be above around 4.5K RPM. Hence thats the reason (well one reason) that VTEC is suited to high RPM.

yeah i agree. im making this up, i think, but vtec doesnt neccessarily make ur car go faster, instead it gives u more power for longer up hi revs, hence you'll notice that on vtec*apable cars* compared to their non vtec counterparts, have a longer and higher rpm reving range.

but i think i just made that up from observation.

so i think that vtec (in its performance mode - dohc vtec) is there to give u power throughout the reving range, in other words giving power hi revs, cos thats where u usually lose power. not to make u go *faster*.

does that sound right?

[Xsi]

A VTEC engine is not like any other car at low RPM, is it actually has a relatively lower cam profile than most non-VTEC engines.
This is because other manufacturers must design one cam lobe to give the best balance of low rev fuel economy and high rev power. Because VTEC engines have two lobes with different profiles, they are able to have a relatively smaller lobe at low revs and use a larger one at high RPM. This leads to better fuel economy at low revs and more power at high revs.
The idea is not to have a big peak in the torque curve, but to have a smoother, flatter torque curve.

[Setanta]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

(BTW: Got any contacts with Honda NZ where I could get new parts for my SiR? ;) )

[vtk94lude]

i ahve vtec, dont use it often on the street now days, but used heaps when i head down to phillip island, nothing like a full day of bounchin da needle off da limiter :shock:

[Chi]

I didn't even know what VTEC meant let alone know what it does lol......

thanks to this forum i finally know what it does....

now if only theres a street where i can drag it......... :P

[XXpl0Sive]

Everyone has this misconception that VTEC makes your car go super fast. This isn't true. VTEC was introduced to give you daily drivability while giving you a good top end when you put your foot down.

Hence, VTEC is when you want to bring out the performance of your car. If/when someone drives fast and they are pushing their car, the tacho is always going to be above around 4.5K RPM. Hence thats the reason (well one reason) that VTEC is suited to high RPM.

yeah i agree. im making this up, i think, but vtec doesnt neccessarily make ur car go faster, instead it gives u more power for longer up hi revs, hence you'll notice that on vtec*apable cars* compared to their non vtec counterparts, have a longer and higher rpm reving range.

but i think i just made that up from observation.

so i think that vtec (in its performance mode - dohc vtec) is there to give u power throughout the reving range, in other words giving power hi revs, cos thats where u usually lose power. not to make u go *faster*.

does that sound right?That's when I get my power, ~5k revs, there' shit all power at 3k because of my low torque 'small' capacity engine

[vti-2]

there' shit all power at 3k because of my low torque 'small' capacity engine

It depends on what you are used to, what you want from the car and how you drive Ben...

A good driver makes the most of what they have. :P

[vtk94lude]

VTEC IS JUST A NOISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fried]

there' shit all power at 3k because of my low torque 'small' capacity engine

It depends on what you are used to, what you want from the car and how you drive Ben...

A good driver makes the most of what they have. :P



hehehe and a crap driver wastes the potential of his car, and makes it dangerous on the road..... :roll:

[Setanta]

VTEC IS JUST A NOISE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you are paraphrasing:



k3nnis: Can you explain how VTEC feels like when it kicks in? Does it pin you back to the seat a little bit like a turbo?
sejanus: Imagine a incredibly tiny small turbo that for some bizarre reason takes 5500-6000rpm to make boost, and so small that it makes bugger all power, just an increase in noise



:P:P:P

[Benny]

And since most people drive at low RPMs most of the time

true, in cars without VTEC!!!
personally i have the foot to the floor constantly :P

[Slugoid]

VTEC is definately not a waste. As the Honda engineers quoted "it's like having 2 cars in one". Torque at low reves and power at high reves. True, for some people like my mum or grandparents, VTEC in a sense is a waste, but for enthusiest, it's definately a bonus.

If you've ever seen a ITR run on a track, you will notice that a person that knows how to drive one will always keep it in VTEC mode. Having said that, a ITR is pretty much not a ITR unless it goes into VTEC cos it has no power at low revs :P

[Phorte]

i like to PRAAAAAAAAAAAAA-aaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!


*immitates noise of vtec*

:twisted:

[BLKCRX]

hmm i read a very old mag.....last week...
hav't checked it out thow

it stated no Honda f1 race engine in any race car has vtec or had vtec.
Vtec to Honda was nothing more than a way to control emissions not to make more power.

Regards James

[A'PEXi]

Honda f1 race engine in any race car has vtec or had vtec.
Vtec to Honda was nothing more than a way to control emissions not to make more power.



when was this statement made? :?

[Setanta]

It's correct, but then again, it wasn't Honda building the engines, it was Mugen. Honda used turbocharging and non-VTEC in F1.

[olda]

hmm i read a very old mag.....last week...
hav't checked it out thow

it stated no Honda f1 race engine in any race car has vtec or had vtec.
Vtec to Honda was nothing more than a way to control emissions not to make more power.

Regards James


Race engines operate at a very high revs only, so there's no need for VTEC system. It would only add weight to the top of the engine and also would probably make engine less reliable. (more things to go wrong).

VTEC system allows a car with the high performance engine to maintain a good street driveability.

Type R engine is the completely different animal again.
It is the closest thing to a race engine in the road car.
The engine is hand build and blue printed from the factory.
Special gear box with LSD is matched to the engine's power curve. It allows Type R to stay in power band while changing gears on the race track. 8)

[typer636]

Porsche has Variocam.

BMW has Vanos.

Lambo has constantly variable on Gallardo.

Ferrari are doing it too.

Honda now has iVTEC.

Even Toyota has VVTi.

I am noticing a trend here.

[wynode]

Correct, but VVTi doen's have variable lift. Only VVTL-i and that is only in the celicas and corolla sportivos

/pickyness.

[Rowie]

even the new ford BA's have dual overhead camshafts, variable valve timing .....

But no lift :(

[Setanta]

Who the hell bumped this thread again? :?

VTEC is a good concept, but Honda really only refined an existing idea and did a damn fine job of it - BMW came up with it first???? I can't remember, but I'm certain that the timing part was out by a Euro company, not sure about the lift though.

[vti-2]

Porsche were the first. ;)

[Setanta]

LOL - I knew it was European. :)

[Rowie]

Who the hell bumped this thread again? :?

*points @ typer636 :D

[[[d a n n y]]]

VTEC IS GOOD u PEOPLE WHO HAVE VTEC DO NOT RELISE THE PAIN IN THE NON CTEC CAR DRIVERS

[Setanta]

Waaaaaaaa

Box of tissues to the man in the yellow EG :P

BTW Danny, this is my first VTEC car - I've owned infinitely more powerful non-VTEC that leave this one for dead ;)

[Rowie]

pete, your turning to the dark side :(

[Rowie]

btw, which non VTEC NA car have you owned that is more powerful with just 1600cc out of curiosity?? :)

[Setanta]

Umm - who said anything about 1600ccs? :P

I'm thinking bent 8 in a Torana ;)

Capacity is where it's at :P

[Rowie]

hehehe...

of course the bigger the capacity, the more horsepower you will produce....

but with only 1600cc, i think your SiR would leave any NA car in its class behind!! :)

[pornstar]

Can i go back to what VTEC is about?

the term/line that ur in VTEC "mode" is often misleading. VTEC is the system that makes the engine engage the higher lift cam profile. So in actual fact, its the cams making the power, the VTEC is the system that switches the cams.

Thus a car without VTEC under the VTEC cut in point of 5,500rpms, is going to be the same as a VTEC equipped car IF, and its a big if, they share the same cams, rodstroke ratio, etc etc. So in effect, yes it is the same below VTEC switch in point, but its the after VTEC point that the cams are much more aggressive.

[vti-2]

but its the after VTEC point that the cams are much more aggressive.

What exactly does that mean?

I hear people talk about this all the time but i don't feel extra power when VTEC hits.

[pornstar]

really simple to explain Vic, u know how NA big v8s change to big "lumpy" cams? that make that really loud "bop bop" sound at idle? Well thats because they have chosen to change the cams that are in there to a higher lift, longer duration cam, which is good for high rpm work, but the rough idle is caused by too much overlap (because of these long duration cams being too aggressive at low rpm). The VTEC point, simply changes the low duration cams (for low rpm use) to the higher lift longer duration cams for high rpm, which is why VTEC cars still idle without stutter and other common problems of biug atmo V8's...Capish?

[vti-2]

I understand that, i just don't get why people say they feel a shove in VTEC cause there ain't none. Even with modified VTEC's that i've been in there isn't a noticeable kick in the back. The transition in power is usually smooth but the sound is loud as ****. With modified VTEC's though, things like top end etc are improved. ;)

Anyway, don't want to sidetrack too much here.

[XXpl0Sive]

What do you mean, Vic?
There is no feeling of a "extra little push" when VTEC begins to engage?

[pornstar]

Vic thats cos u have the VtecH engine, and we all have VTEC engines :)

nah just kidding, u dont feel the shove, cos u never driven a h motor, b motors, dont really pull like the H series, man i miss H22 power :(

[vti-2]

What do you mean, Vic?
There is no feeling of a "extra little push" when VTEC begins to engage?


Exactly. There's no extra push. :D

Why do so many people say you can feel VTEC? You can't!

Last time i checked, mine was a VTEC. I better check some dodgy fob called Andy hasn't swapped a VTECH into my car. ;)

[XXpl0Sive]

When I drove Mishale's H22A, we could feel a push, not as hard as a turbo charegd car, but a push nevertheless. Also I noticed it wasn't as loud as in the Integra's.

[bennjamin]

When I drove Mishale's H22A, we could feel a push, not as hard as a turbo charegd car, but a push nevertheless. Also I noticed it wasn't as loud as in the Integra's.

Yes indeed WE could feel a push...of ur hand on urself as Mishale wasnt lookn :P


BTW relative to all cars - the larger the displacement , the more torque ( pull or push....PULL in a FWD lol ) - so the 2.2 out of the lude will PULL more than say a 1.6 vti or 1.8 Vtir...in a stock small capacity car - IF u muffle ur ears at the vtec engagement point - there is little difference in torque between off and on.

I guess the only way you "feel" a Vtec PULL is once past the vtec meet the engine will peak at its optimum HP and thus feel like its "maximum pull"...often NOISE is associated with a cars speed - the louder it is - the faster it seems to be going at.

And , oh yeah- Honda's arent known for torque - thats teh reason u gotta rev its ring to get any numbers out of it !

[XXpl0Sive]

Down Boy!!