01POV does Wakefield ! my 1st wakefield experience

[zco]

It’s a long read, so be prepared to set aside 5-10minutes at work haha

As some of you may know, i had recently purchased BarefootBonzai's 01POV EK K20A, and thought it'd be good to show off all his hard work in NSW.. so i took it to wakefield lol.

heres a pic of the EK and my mates black EG
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/2120/99262884.jpg
Preparation
Before I headed to the track, I spent shitload of money prepping it, which consisted of buying the right oils, brakes, tyres and etc. I stocked up on Castrol edge 5-30 (which was on sale at REPCO for $35/bottle , got hooked up from my mate at Autobarn with some Motul RBF600 Brake fluid, Motul Gear FF type2 LSD MTF, and New coolant (Thanks KOVAL). Thanks to JDMYard who supplied me with a Baffled Sump, and a New Hamp oil filter. Used DBA 6x6wiper slot 4000series rotors, Used Endless CCA pads from Kiet and used semi slicks from Chi.

(Servicing was done at JDMYard with the help of Marc/BADHBT, Yonas and Z10. A Huge thanks to them as they helped prep this car)

When i say Used tyres, I really mean they were Used, well old. They were mounted to my 16x7 42+ Desmond Regamasters

Fronts: RE55S 205/55/R16 which were built in 2003. (yes, they were the wrong size and 6years old LOL)
Rears: RE540 205/50/R16 which were built in 2002. (yes wrong size again, and these were 7 years old haha. the RE55S are the replacement of these tyres)

-These set of tyres were all i could grab my hands on at the time, and they were rock hard..

Anyway, I had mounted the wheels onto the car, headed out to JAX Tyres in Liverpool for a wheel alignment. Being a complete noob at the track, i didnt know what was required for camber, and toe settings, so i took the advice of the worker there.

These were the settings he set it to:
FRONT: Toe Out 1mm each side with -2.8degrees of Camber
REAR: Toe In 0.7mm each side with -1.4degrees of Camber

-Those that know their alignment settings can already predict how the day will turn out lol. The correct settings i should have used are:
Front: Toe out 1mm each side , -3.0 camber
Rear: Toe OUT 1mm each side , -1.6 camber

Ive never driven at Wakefield before, so this is my 1st experience. With those alignment settings in consideration. I headed down to Wakefield Park, and the weather was just pathetic. It was raining, temperature was about 7-11degrees for the day, and I wasn't looking forward to driving in the rain..

update next post soon

[zco]

The Track
it was time to see how fine of a machine Barefoot had built, and from my experiences so far, I'm pretty confident it wasn't going to be a let down.
I went out for a total of 5 sessions

**Session 1
The ground was completely wet.. like seriously wet. It was still raining when I came out. Had the wipers on and all.. did a few warm up laps which were useless as the tyres were hard rock, the ground was completely ice cold and i added to the fact that i get too excited, i decided to give it a few hits. As expected, I kept spinning out in the wet. I didn't care. It was so much fun, i didn't even look at the lap timer haha. This went on for about 15 to 20minutes, and was probably the best time I've had with a car in a while lol. (I did feel safer speeding regardless of conditions as i was at the track.. spinning out at 100km/h was a good adrenalin rush). I headed into the pits after the session ended, and looked at the lap timer.. they were filled with 1:30's and 1:40's, with a best of 1:29 HAHA. Boy was i in trouble..

**Session 2
The ground was still wet, but it had stopped raining which was a good sign. I headed out again, thinking that the rear was too stiff, hence all the spinning out from Session 1, so i completely softened the rear dampers up. Dampers were set on 0/12 for the rear, and 4/12 on the fronts. For the first 2 laps i spun out even more, and these were warm up laps. So into the pits i went and changed it back..5/12 front, 6/12 rear. It definately felt much better. Didnt spin out (as much lol). The lap timer started to read 1:23-1:25 in the wet, and i thought that i'd start taking it serious. I began making up my own lines, (passengers weren’t allowed so no one showed me the lines) and as the ground started to dry up abit, i manged to clock a 1:17:6X.. not too bad for a 1st timer in the wet i thought..
**Session 3
The sun was out so it started to dry.. thank god! I started to get tired of doing 1:20's..

I quickly learnt from others around me that I forgot to check my tyre pressure, and little do you know, they were on 40psi COLD. What a noob i was. I got told to put it on 30psi cold, (but i think i should have tried 33-34 cold first). We didn’t have a pump so couldn’t jack it back up so that was a let down..

Anyway, so i went out for the 3rd session. Pulled out some happy smooth laps, spinning off the track 3 times that session. Which was a huge improvement over the last 2 sessions.

I think it was the combo of a better pressure in tyres, and the rear suspension being set properly. There was a Mini cooper S that i had my eye on for this session.. and set myself a personal target to chase him down. the gap between us decreased as every lap went on. The lap times for five consecutive laps of 1:16, 1:16, 1:15, 1:14 and then a 1:13

Thorughout this session, i noticed the car felt really wobbly and unstable in the rear. I think it was because of the old tyres, or the sussy, so I thought I’d be a pro, and stiffen it up more for the next session.
Front from 5/12 to 6/12
Rear from 6/12 to 7/12

**session 4
The ground was mostly dry by now, probably 90% of the track looked dry. I was then able to push the car to the limits, and you'd think this is where I’d beat my time, but unfortunately not.
Being able to push my car more, meaning I had to put more pressure on the brakes to stop in time for the turn. Dont get me wrong, the brakes were superb(well at least i thoguht they were). The Fluid and rotor/pad combo held up good. Brakes didnt go spongey, or fade at any time. But there are other aspects of the car that let me down.

I spun out heaps more than last session, but it was more dry. I didn’t understand why, so I just assumed it was my shit driving coz it was my first time. The more and more I pushed it, the more I spun out entering the turn. I started to slowly eliminate possible problems of why I could be going so bad.

When it was partially wet (session3), I couldn’t push it as hard in the corners. When it dried up for session4, which allowed me to pushed the car harder, but when it got to a certain point of the cars limits, the rear end would constantly flicked out. WAY too many times. It was a nightmare to drive.

After the session, I had asked a few guys why my car is behaving as it was. I learnt that Rear toe-in will cause your car’s rear end to flick out when entering a corner. I then realized that its exactly what the guy at the tyre centre had described to me. He said that the rear will flick out more to counteract the understeer of a front wheel drive car.. It made sense to me at the time of the alignment so I trusted him to do his job. But in this case, it wasn’t needed because the handling of the car didn’t understeer. It was the rear that kept flicking out too much which is why I couldn’t push it harder than i already did.

So having learnt that, there was really nothing more i could do but try harder with what i already have. I checked over my car, the oil was still clean, and didnt burn off. Gearbox and clutch held up good, and brake pads were still fine. Rotors didnt change colour, and tyres finally had some heat in them. checked the pressure and it was about 34psi.

*session 5.
Went out and tried my best with what i had. I knew that i couldnt push it any harder because i'd just keep spinning out, but I just couldn’t resist not pushing it, so again, i kept spinning out. LOL. i got really annoyed and realised that i needed some sort of comparison of my noob driving skills. i pulled into the pits and asked a mate of mine to drive for the rest of the session as i observed. He is a more experienced and knowledgeable driver, and has clocked numerous 1:0X's before in several other cars.

He came back after the session had ended and the first thing that came out of his mouth was "this car is ****ed to drive" HAHA i asked him why, and he couldnt get over the fact at how much the rear kept kicking out. He managed to clock 3 easy 1:12:XX laps in the car.. So that was the end of session5, and we called it a day.

Results
Having it been my first time driving around a track, and managed a 1:13:91 on a partly wet ground, with an experienced friend doing 1:12:XX on a more dry surface, I think I did pretty good for what I had..

Wakefield was a huge learning curve. I now have a greater understanding of a car's behaviour on the track. It's a much more safe playground for us to play on, instead of bulleting the car around areas such as OP and RNP

These are the things ive learnt from that day.
-Track/Circuit racing is not easy, and that alot of preparation knowledge and understanding is required to drive.
-It is expensive. Im a student with a part time job, and its not easy on the pocket. This track day burnt a nice hole in my wallet, but the lessons i learnt are worth far more.
-All the issues and headaches before hand, and during the day are definitely worth it !

Things i would change before i head back:
-re-do the alignment to the correct settings
-I'd probably look at a spring rate of about 16kg's all around. These are excellent coilovers, but they didnt compare to the J's Racing ones i had before on my previous EK.
-Get NEW and Correct size semi slicks. These did the job for the day, but obviously could improve.
-If i was to go back with the same coilovers, I'd probably leave the dampers at F:5 and R:6
-Definitely need gauges to tell you your oil temperature and etc.. I was so hesitant to do cool down laps. It was constant thrashing haha

For a more serious track machine
-I’d look at new bushings all round.
-A New camber kit.
-Look into getting a more suited Seat for me.

and Lastly, BarefootBonzai, you built a very exciting machine. All credit goes to you for the amount of time and effort you put into this car. Apart from the wheel alignment settings, it was a fullysikk driving experience. :thumbsup:

I strongly urge anyone and everyone to try Wakefield as i cant put into words how exciting, and fun the day was.

I hope that was a good read LOL it felt like forever typing it

[EG5]

Awsome!!!

[jords]

Nice one Zco, good to see a K series doing well.

[burak213]

good job man

[jords]

Is the car still for sale?

[vinnY]

shell is for sale afaik

good going zico, nice to see more people hitting the track from here

[e240]

Great Read - Go Zero Toe on the rear, that would help.

[Slaz]

Well written mate, good read.:thumbsup:

[Benson]

Nice write up zco!

You'll learn heaps more when you get more track time and seat time.

[Zilli]

good stuff getting out there Zico, and pretty respectable times considering you've never been out before!

My understanding was negative toe is what would cause the rear to swing around mid coner, IF you got off the gas, i could be wrong though...

i find that a light application of throttle through a corner is what keeps it stable, wheras if you get off it, the car will come around with the shift of weight

[Tegzieboi_BAR]

good stuff getting out there Zico, and pretty respectable times considering you've never been out before!

My understanding was negative toe is what would cause the rear to swing around mid coner, IF you got off the gas, i could be wrong though...

i find that a light application of throttle through a corner is what keeps it stable, wheras if you get off it, the car will come around with the shift of weight

That definitely makes sence to me... need understeer 2 counteract with oversteer and vice versa...

Was a gret read Zico... im plannin on my 1st track day in a couple of months n its given me a great insight n a couple of things 2 look out 4... best of luck in the future runs.

Btw, whats a decent time around this racetrack 4 a n/a honda?

[Sir_vtec]

Interesting read man, cant wait to circuit race myself.

Any clips? Is that chi's eg? Looks like yonas's eg to me lol

[zco]

Is the car still for sale?

shell is for sale afaik
good going zico, nice to see more people hitting the track from here

thanks vinny
well the complete car is for sale aswell. but im also trying to sell rolling shell and motor setup separtely if anyone is interested.


Great Read - Go Zero Toe on the rear, that would help.
yehh i realised the rear toe was wrong.. but i'll try a toe out 1mm and see how it goes next time round.. my mate just headed down there with 1mm toe out on the rear and he says its quite good..


Well written mate, good read.:thumbsup:

Nice write up zco!
You'll learn heaps more when you get more track time and seat time.
thanks guys.. yeh hopeing to improve ofcourse. got a shitload of things to change and hopefully can run in the 1:10 bracket on my 2nd outing


good stuff getting out there Zico, and pretty respectable times considering you've never been out before!

My understanding was negative toe is what would cause the rear to swing around mid coner, IF you got off the gas, i could be wrong though...

i find that a light application of throttle through a corner is what keeps it stable, wheras if you get off it, the car will come around with the shift of weight
hmm negative toe as in toe out ? its a hard thing to understand.. i tried to picture my car turning right, with a toe OUT setting.
the right hand side rear wheel would assist in the turn, but the passenger wheel would push the cars rear end outwards.. as to which wheel has more force ? im not sure.. some ppl say driver side wheel as its got a smaller turning circle, and has more force, some say the passenger wheel as the weight is transfered to that side when i drive.. its just too confusing trying to understand.. so ive decided to go out there and try it myself next time :) will update this thread obviously ! hehe


That definitely makes sence to me... need understeer 2 counteract with oversteer and vice versa...

Was a gret read Zico... im plannin on my 1st track day in a couple of months n its given me a great insight n a couple of things 2 look out 4... best of luck in the future runs.

Btw, whats a decent time around this racetrack 4 a n/a honda?
im not sure what a decent time around the track is.. but i can tell you to definately consider these things
brakes. make sure you have decent fluid so it doesnt boil, pads dont fade, and rotors dont warp.
semis'. might aswell get them since you'll be sliding on street tyres. you'll destroy your street tyres anyway..
alignment. definately get one. you'll be able to push your car closer to its limits


Interesting read man, cant wait to circuit race myself.

Any clips? Is that chi's eg? Looks like yonas's eg to me lol
nah its not chi's EG. that EG in the picture has a built B18C2. it goes pretty good lol

[fatboyz39]

Good to see you finally hit the circuit. I think you caught the track bug haha.

There are some good and bad points ppl have given you. You just gotta filter the right ones.

[zco]

yehh its hard to know whats good and whats not.. only good way to figure out whats good is to try it myself i guess

and yes, track bug definately hit lol
thought i was over it, but right after the track day, i wanted to go again 2days later to the shift one haha

[kriZy]

wd zco.
i still need to go out on the track.
you're one step ahead of me now.

[string]

hmm negative toe as in toe out ? its a hard thing to understand.. i tried to picture my car turning right, with a toe OUT setting.
the right hand side rear wheel would assist in the turn, but the passenger wheel would push the cars rear end outwards.. as to which wheel has more force ? im not sure.. some ppl say driver side wheel as its got a smaller turning circle, and has more force, some say the passenger wheel as the weight is transfered to that side when i drive.. its just too confusing trying to understand.. so ive decided to go out there and try it myself next time :) will update this thread obviously ! hehe

During a corner the outside wheels (left wheels in a right hand turn) have substantially more load on them.

Remember that a car rotates as it goes through a corner, about the centre of mass (in front of the driver).

Toe-out on the inside rear wheel will attempt to rotate the car in the opposite direction to what the front wheels are doing, while toe-out on the outside rear wheel will rotate the car in the same direction as the front wheels. Because when you corner, the load transfers from the inside to the outside (and with a big rear swaybar, most if not all of the inside tyre's load is on the ouside), the negative effect of the inside wheel's toe angle is minimised and the positive effects of the outside wheel is maximised.

[zco]

thanks so much for that string..
i guess if the inside wheels load is minimised, it would suggest why it would lift up when i take the corner too hard..

so in saying that, would a toe out 1mm each side on the rear cause it to flick out less than a toe in setting of 1mm each side ?

does anyone else run a toe out setting on the rear ? ive been seeing alot of ppl run zero toe on the rear

the car's current settings are at -3camber front and 1mm toe out
rear have -1.5camber and 1mm toe out aswell..

would be good to see how it goes when i head back soon

[DEMON83]

good write up, luv the detail!

[string]

thanks so much for that string..
i guess if the inside wheels load is minimised, it would suggest why it would lift up when i take the corner too hard..

Exactly - it's off the ground because it is contributing NOTHING to the cornering effort. When this happens you've maximised front end grip for acceleration!




so in saying that, would a toe out 1mm each side on the rear cause it to flick out less than a toe in setting of 1mm each side ?

Because the inside wheel is so lightly loaded, we can ignore it. The more the outside rear wheel is toed-OUT, the more it will try to rotate the car when it is loaded. If you run some toe-in on the rear, you will gain some stability at the expense of some turning ability.

I run 0 toe all round because I don't have the funds for a toe-vehicle. If I did I'd run toe-out front and rear.

[Chi]

More pics of the black EG !!!!

[hisoka]

thanks for posting up, bad luck on weather and allginment but there is always next time.

what clutch you running on your car atm ?

[Zilli]

ive got -1 combined out on the front, and zero on the rears... but my car is too low, runs on fresh r888's and the N+ seem to soft, i get a lot of understeer that i am finding hard to dial out, i haven't had enough track time to play to be honest...

however, i learnt early that going into a corner committed is important... by committed i mean judge your speed, and maintain some throttle through the corner and unless you are way too hot it wont come around, unless you're so hot you're plough understeering and get off, where it will come around and you need to be ready to countersteer... (or become a passenger :-))

i don't think i push enough really, i don't carry too much entry speed, but push hard just before apex which makes a mess of my tyres because of understeer... the best ive done to date is 1:13:6xxxx

Practise makes perfect... there are a couple of turns that can seem daunting at Wakey

[Red_EG4]

Thanks for the right up, very insightful for people who have never tracked.
Crazy that 1mm can cause so much difference.
In regards to brake set ups, this would be proportional to the power you are putting down, correct?

[zco]

id probably use the same brake fluid pads and rotors if i had a stock b18c..

[Riced_Civic]

damn nice car man, i love the k20 in civics. u got any vids of they day

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

Zico, that was a good read, well done.

Glad to know you had a good time :)

[fatboyz39]

Those wheel alignment Jax gave you is close to ideal setup. I wouldnt change it one bit.

[CRXer]

Those wheel alignment Jax gave you is close to ideal setup. I wouldnt change it one bit.
except,being a JAX alignment,id prob check whether it is was they actually say it is

[fatboyz39]

except,being a JAX alignment,id prob check whether it is was that actually say it is


We use them. Great guys. I should say JAX liverpool. Dont need million dollar wheel alginment corner balance for backyard cars :thumbsup:

[zco]

Those wheel alignment Jax gave you is close to ideal setup. I wouldnt change it one bit.

hmm you think so ? the BYP Civic rear toe set inwards too ?
i had a look at pro concept setup and they toe'd the rear outwards.. im not sure why, but i'd give this setup a go and see how it handles..

maybe driving style and technique has something to do wiht it ? i already did another alignment the day after wakefield..
ive got alot to learn anyway, so hope this can bring some sort of improvement.
thanks jimmy

except,being a JAX alignment,id prob check whether it is was they actually say it is

We use them. Great guys. I should say JAX liverpool. Dont need million dollar wheel alginment corner balance for backyard cars :thumbsup:

well i had stand next to them and monitor the screen whilst they do their job just to understand whats going on.. i get a printout of my settings at the end of the alignment..
and as fatboyz39 has said, they are pretty good. Awesome guys with real track experience from 2 of their workers too.

i just need a good combination of settings to use..

[CRXer]

thats good to hear,just dont go to JAX bondi junction,they seem to have like a 5 mm tolerance,lol.

your right jimmy dont need big budget tools,just a piece of string & a ruler for toe settings,easy.....

[iced]

Top effort on getting out there and letting the car do what it does best.

fatboyz is not wrong there RE: alignments
on top of that both of your alignments (ie the one you got from JAX and the one you think you should run) can cater for different driving style or just how the driver likes the car to handle.
neither of them are wrong persay.

E.g i used to run zero toe at the back.
But then I wanted the rear to turn more so I have about 1mm toe out each side.
Then on the street I didnt like the setup as it was too snappy on the limit. I set out for a more mild 0.5mm toe each side.
As for the front I had run zero toe on the street. Fine. Now I run a bit more aggressive setup for the street of 0.5mm toe out each side.
One can say that a street setup will work fine on the track but a track setup is not ideal for the street. You can find some middle ground.
If you want to find the best combo you would have to go all out and measure how heat is distributed on the tyres and adjust, alignment and tyre pressure to maximise grip.
THen again. You can go to Eastern Creek and it might like a different alignment and setup to enable you to go faster.

[Benson]

thats good to hear,just dont go to JAX bondi junction,they seem to have like a 5 mm tolerance,lol.

your right jimmy dont need big budget tools,just a piece of string & a ruler for toe settings,easy.....

I do my own corner balance :p

[fatboyz39]

thats good to hear,just dont go to JAX bondi junction,they seem to have like a 5 mm tolerance,lol.

your right jimmy dont need big budget tools,just a piece of string & a ruler for toe settings,easy.....

LOL 5mm tolerance... string and ruler is real tight arse way. If i knew how to do it i think i would :p

[CRXer]

what u got 4 bathroom scales benny,lol?

string & ruler is easy jimmy,mines perfect(after i finally worked out my steering wheel was off 1 spline from previous owner,lol).
u just get your wheel track measurements front & back,
run a string line around the car & pull it tight,
then measure a parallel string line off the hub centres by packing the string off the bodywork(allowing for difference in wheel track figures & assuming same rims front & back),
then u can just measure & adjust the toe off the string,
front toe is easy,since the tie rod attachment is at about a half of the rim diameter u just half the toe adjustment u want to make & just dial that in or out on the tie rod.set of verniers is good between the tie rod lock nut & the tie rod to see how much your turning it in or out.
that'll get u close anyway,one more measure & adjust should get u exactly what u want(within reason of tolerance on a string & ruler,lol).
rear toe i havent figured out the adjusment yet,i just move it till its right,usually takes 3 or 4 trys.

[jdmTYPE R]

wow learnt so much in 1 days....imagine on the second day:)

[chargeR]

Great write up! As others have said if you were having trouble spinning out with that alignment I would not advise running more toe out at the rear. The current alignment specs look fine the best thing you can probably do is get back out there!

[jdmlvn]

nice write up zco.
that was a interesting read.
hope u improve those times man.

[ATSE]

Good writeup and read Zico.

Practise makes perfect...

But at the end of the day... as long as you have fun that's all that matters.

[82911]

.....

[barefootbonzai]

sick way too much to read. need more pics!

[zco]

yehh if i was a user, i cbf reading either lol

just read last paragraph

[hisoka]

how are the cca pads, ive never had them but do you know the temp rating ?

do you think to much for road useage ? do they squeel when its cold ?

so much knowledge in this thread lol

[zco]

yeh they squeel abit when they're cold. dont bother using it for the road. waste of a pad. its like using a semi slick for the road. noisy. and wasteful.

get something else like endless SSS pad

[hussLEr]

Nice write-up zco.

Am suprised that this was your first time!..

Good to see you had fun with the k.

[BlitZ]

well done zico..

[BlitZ]

sick way too much to read. need more pics!

well built...:thumbsup:

[e240]

Wakefield was a huge learning curve. I now have a greater understanding of a car's behaviour on the track. It's a much more safe playground for us to play on, instead of bulleting the car around areas such as OP and RNP

Hey! Don't knock on OP!!! :angel::angel::angel:

[mrwillz]

i enjoyed that zco

[EG5]

Hey! Don't knock on OP!!! :angel::angel::angel:

huh? don't knock on Old Pacific Hwy?

[aaronng]

huh? don't knock on Old Pacific Hwy?

Yeah, don't knock too hard otherwise it will crumble again and I will have to take the long way around to get to a customer who is located near that area. :p

I agree, after wakie, OP and RNP just seem boring.

[Limbo]

hey will let you know how i go on the 25th when i go out, should be fun.
I'm going out with old semis also LOL

[Benson]

hey will let you know how i go on the 25th when i go out, should be fun.
I'm going out with old semis also LOL

Dont worry no one can afford new tyres :p We are using second hand IPRA tyres

[bennjamin]

huh? don't knock on Old Pacific Hwy?

you know how bad it got out there lol Mr EG5 :) Remember out late night plate swap ? :zip:

[EG5]

you know how bad it got out there lol Mr EG5 :) Remember out late night plate swap ? :zip:

Never been there for years. Anyway back on topic

[iijjee]

As you see in my sig I have also done a single track day at WP What a day. Like you I analysed myself and my car to pieces both before and after. Flattened header pipes, mixed tyres, heat, only a handful of actual 'hot laps', stock shocks, tiny radiator, 'hot' air induction, bad lines, sloppy braking, changing tyre pressures etc etc etc.

Prob the most worrying or disappointing thing was discovering afterwards that my 'new' adrenalines were bald on the inner fronts (about 5 cm wide) after 3200km (!), and then after new tyres/alignment to find out that the Toe was out by 20mm - explains the shocking ride and 'follow a rut' handling on the road!

I too can't wait for my second WP experience. I just hope the track is still there when I can afford to or can get down there! I'm sure there's a 1:11 in my car with cooler weather and semis!!!

Great write up! Get down there you keyboard warriors! Esp if ur a Sydneyite! No excuses!

[moo moo nel]

...Servicing was done at JDMYard with the help of Marc/BADHBT, Yonas and Z10. A Huge thanks to them as they helped prep this car...

What's the relationship between ZCO and Z1O

[zco]

he's my dad

[EK1.6LCIV]

bravo, well done :)
any pics from the day? :)

[xtercii]

Zico all these years of hooning aroound cabra has finally paid off!!!!

[BlitZ]

Zico all these years of hooning aroound cabra has finally paid off!!!!

he does John st in 12:15... pretty quick