Treating glazed brakes

[Mugen Civic]

Hello,

I've glazed my brakes last week so i've taken the Pads off and sanded them down a fair bit (didn't really care how much i took off) and its no longer shiny like before. Also gave the brakes a general clean while i was at it like brushing dust off every were. Now my brakes is still performing poorly.

I was wondering, is it possible to glaze the rotors? If so, how to treat these, sand them too?

Brakes i'm using is Bendix's (forgot which ones) with RDA slotted disc. Also have Cusco brake master cylinder stopper (which shouldn't matter i don't think)

Thanks.

[vinnY]

thought you could just deglaze them by driving slowly and applying the brakes once in a while

otherwise you can get some emery paper and give them a once over

if all else fails, you sure you haven't cooked the brake fluid and got moisture into it?

hit up this tutorial (http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0711_brake_deglazing/index.html) for deglazing your brakes

[Mugen Civic]

thought you could just deglaze them by driving slowly and applying the brakes once in a while

otherwise you can get some emery paper and give them a once over

if all else fails, you sure you haven't cooked the brake fluid and got moisture into it?

hit up this tutorial (http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0711_brake_deglazing/index.html) for deglazing your brakes

o thanks for the article, will read it in the morning.

If theres something wrong with the brake fluid, would the pedal become spongy in feeling?

[vinnY]

chances are if you glazed your brakes somehow, if you're using stock fluid you've cooked that too
it'll make the pedal spongy
flush the brakes i say

[Mugen Civic]

chances are if you glazed your brakes somehow, if you're using stock fluid you've cooked that too
it'll make the pedal spongy
flush the brakes i say

okay i will do that too, its a shame cause i've just replaced the fluid 4000kms ago.

[vinnY]

suck it up princess, it's like $7/500ml :p

[Mugen Civic]

suck it up princess, it's like $7/500ml :p

for OEM fluid?

i had no idea how much they were, dad gets them from his old Honda dealer, hehe.

[vinnY]

yeah most of the regular stuff is about that price unless you go into the more exotic fluids

[aaronng]

okay i will do that too, its a shame cause i've just replaced the fluid 4000kms ago.

You don't have to change all the fluid. Just bleed it at the caliper nipple at each corner and top up the resevoir as you go.

[JohnL]

I was wondering, is it possible to glaze the rotors?

Yes.


If so, how to treat these, sand them too?

Yes, but ideally you'd get them lightly machined.

[JohnL]

you sure you haven't cooked the brake fluid and got moisture into it?

"Cooking" the fluid won't introduce water into the fluid. Overheating the fluid wil cause it to boil, temporarily creating gas within the hydraulic system and causing the pedal to go to the floor and brake loss (until the fluid cools).

If water already exists in the fluid then this will lower the natural boiling point of the brake fluid, and thus it will be easier to boil the fluid.

[JohnL]

If theres something wrong with the brake fluid, would the pedal become spongy in feeling?

Specifically in relation to there being "something wrong with the brake fluid", only if there is gas in the hydraulics, whether permanent bubbles or temporary (due to boiling).

A damaged flexible brake line (i.e. rubber hose) can cause a soft / spongy pedal if the internal reinforcement of the hose is damaged and allowing the hose to swell each time the line pressure increases (i.e. each time the brake is used).

You say that you sanded the pads? Did you ensure that you kept the pads very flat when you did this? I don't mean that the friction surface is flat (which it should be), but that the thickness of the pad from backing plate to friction surface is reasonably uniform over the whole area of the pad (of all 4 pads)? If a pad is tapered in thickness (either from the top to bottom, or from inside to outside relative to the rotor diameter), then it won't sit flatly on the rotor surface.

What will then happen is that prior to brake application one part of the pad surface will be very close to the rotor surface and other parts further away. Initial brake application will move the pad a short distance until it contacts the rotor, but then further piston movement (and thus pedal movement) will be required to bring the rest of the pad into contact.

Because the pad(s) isn't uniformly thick, this further movement will also cause misalignment of the piston and flexure of the components of the caliper. When pressure is released these misalignments and flexures will relax, but happen again each time the brakes are used.

All this will tend to cause a spongy pedal, and is the main reason that fitting new pads tends to often result in a firmer pedal, i.e. the new pads are of uniform thickness whereas the old ones are likely to have had significant taper wear.

[JohnL]

if you're using stock fluid you've cooked that too
it'll make the pedal spongy
flush the brakes i say

Assuming the fluid to be uncontaminated (with water) it won't need to be changed just because it may have boiled.

However, if the fluid did boil then it's probable that the fluid is old and water contaminated and needs to be changed anyway.

[vinnY]

i should have a disclaimer in my sig :p
one way or another, $14 to eliminate a potential problem is cheap in my books

[Mugen Civic]

Wow thanks guys, this is excellent information

+ reps for you guys.

What do you guys recommend for brake fluid for a EK1 for street/track use?
I don't think I wanna use OEM if its gonna boil again.
Is there a better fluid for these applications even thou its the same DOT rating as OEM?

[aaronng]

Wow thanks guys, this is excellent information

+ reps for you guys.

What do you guys recommend for brake fluid for a EK1 for street/track use?
I don't think I wanna use OEM if its gonna boil again.
Is there a better fluid for these applications even thou its the same DOT rating as OEM?

Castrol Super Response DOT4 is good for the cheap price. But if you want the best heat resistance, maybe go for Motul RBF600.

[e240]

Castrol Super Response DOT4 is good for the cheap price. But if you want the best heat resistance, maybe go for Motul RBF600.

Penrite SIN goes for $20 and is the same grade as RBF600 :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Thats what I've been using.

[Limbo]

i use the castrol response also :)

[JohnL]

I don't think I wanna use OEM if its gonna boil again.


I'm fairly confident that the fluid would have boiled due to being old and water contaminated, not because it wasn't good enough when new.

[Mugen Civic]

I'm fairly confident that the fluid would have boiled due to being old and water contaminated, not because it wasn't good enough when new.

Nah the OEM fluid was fairly new, only replaced 4000km ago. Colour was still gold clear colour.

[JohnL]

Nah the OEM fluid was fairly new, only replaced 4000km ago. Colour was still gold clear colour.

I think we need to backtrack a bit here.

Do you think that you overheated the brakes and as a result boiled the fluid?

What exactly happened to the brake performance when you overheated them?

What specifically makes you think that the fluid boiled?

Were your glazed pads new (or nearly)?

[Mugen Civic]

Last Friday I went for a track day, the one that Shift Performance organized.

Yea, actually now that I think about it, i'm pretty sure I boiled my fluid doesn't matter how new it is. So your right JohnL. The fluid I use is OEM but I don't know what the boiling point is.

The pads were abouts 75% left and they were glazed, but now is treated and fixed.

So the plan now is to replace the brake fluid with a higher grade, maybe Motul RBF600? Might be able to have time to do it this arvo.

I'll see how that goes. Is 500mL enough? or should I get two bottles...

[aaronng]

Last Friday I went for a track day, the one that Shift Performance organized.

Yea, actually now that I think about it, i'm pretty sure I boiled my fluid doesn't matter how new it is. So your right JohnL. The fluid I use is OEM but I don't know what the boiling point is.

The pads were abouts 75% left and they were glazed, but now is treated and fixed.

So the plan now is to replace the brake fluid with a higher grade, maybe Motul RBF600? Might be able to have time to do it this arvo.

I'll see how that goes. Is 500mL enough? or should I get two bottles...
When you replaced your brake fluid, did you pump it through each caliper or did you just suck out the old fluid from the resevoir and topped it up with new fluid?

[Mugen Civic]

When you replaced your brake fluid, did you pump it through each caliper or did you just suck out the old fluid from the resevoir and topped it up with new fluid?

Nah, i did it properly.
My dad checked over me while doing it and his a mechanic for Toyota. We also have the sucking tool thingy that is used with a air compressor.

But i think i did it the old two man pedal pumping way, either way its done properly with no air or moisture in the brake system.

Toyota and Honda's procedures are the same.

[JohnL]

Last Friday I went for a track day,

On a race track it's credible that you may have boiled good fluid. On the road it would be a signifier of insanity...

Boiling the fluid won't leave bubbles in the system after it's cooled down, so I doubt a continued soft pedal would be due to having boiled the fluid.


Yea, actually now that I think about it, i'm pretty sure I boiled my fluid doesn't matter how new it is.

Yes, but how do you know that you boiled it? When brake fluid boils the pedal immediately goes straight to the floor with no resistance, and you can tell that the fluid boiled because of the brown stains...

[aaronng]

Nah, i did it properly.
My dad checked over me while doing it and his a mechanic for Toyota. We also have the sucking tool thingy that is used with a air compressor.

But i think i did it the old two man pedal pumping way, either way its done properly with no air or moisture in the brake system.

Toyota and Honda's procedures are the same.

Then the continued soft pedal feel could have come from overheated brake pads. Overheated pads are softer even after they have cooled down and you have deglazed them because there are compounds in the pad that burn off once you exceed the rated temperature. Happened to both my OEM and street ceramic pads. You will also get more dusting after overheating the pads because the pads are soft and are being ground down against the rotor.

[Mugen Civic]

oh right.

well I went to Autobarn yesterday but they didn't have the RBF600 in stock so i haven't changed the fluid yet. In that case, with the pedal reaching the floor with boiled fluid, i'll look into getting new pads then. Since the pedal didn't reach the floor without any resistance. The pedal is just a lil bit spongy.

I'm gonna try get some Lucas/TRW's pads.
Or any other recommendations for combo with RDA slotted disc?

[aaronng]

oh right.

well I went to Autobarn yesterday but they didn't have the RBF600 in stock so i haven't changed the fluid yet. In that case, with the pedal reaching the floor with boiled fluid, i'll look into getting new pads then. Since the pedal didn't reach the floor without any resistance. The pedal is just a lil bit spongy.

I'm gonna try get some Lucas/TRW's pads.
Or any other recommendations for combo with RDA slotted disc?

Are your rotors worn, warped, lipped or past the minimum thickness? If not, just keep using it.

[hoey888]

I'm gonna try get some Lucas/TRW's pads.
Or any other recommendations for combo with RDA slotted disc?


mate, after going to trackdays, a general rule of thumb is to bleed your brakes. doesn't matter what you use, coz the brake fluid will have boiled and will have moisture in it. the stuff you put in is gonna be 100% beter than the stuff you used on the track.

by bleeding your brakes, you will remove brake fade and make it more spongy. brake fade is where you pedal lacks the linear feel ( ie when you push the brakes, theres a certain point where it starts getting very hard and inconsistent)...

give it a go first before spending more money and pads and rotors.
:thumbsup: RBF600

[dvsx]

sorry to be a noob and all, but what does glazed brakes mean?

my rotors are warped and ive seen that term around while researching

[JohnL]

mate, after going to trackdays, a general rule of thumb is to bleed your brakes. doesn't matter what you use, coz the brake fluid will have boiled and will have moisture in it. the stuff you put in is gonna be 100% beter than the stuff you used on the track.

Please explain the mechanism by which water free brake fluid beomes water contaminated merely as a result of having exceeded the temperature at which it boils?


by bleeding your brakes, you will remove brake fade and make it more spongy.

What...?


brake fade is where you pedal lacks the linear feel ( ie when you push the brakes, theres a certain point where it starts getting very hard and inconsistent)...

Brake fade occurs when the brake pad becomes severely overheated and (sometimes quite suddenly) gives off so much gas (often as smoke, though the gas may not be visible) that the friction material is no longer in contact with the rotor surface, but is in effect 'aqua-planing' in a microscopically thin layer of highly pressurised gas.

When this occurs the gas just cannot escape fast enough from between the pad and rotor surfaces no matter how much pressure is applied to the pads by the pistons. In effect the brake becomes very effectively 'lubricated' by the gas.

[JohnL]

sorry to be a noob and all, but what does glazed brakes mean?

my rotors are warped and ive seen that term around while researching

A brake pad becomes 'glazed' when it becomes so hot that a thin layer of it's friction surface melts, and upon re-hardening forms a hard glass like substance on the pad surface. This glass has poor friction qualities and due to it's hardness may possibly even damage the brake rotor.

New pads are typically much more prone to this than are pads that have been 'bedded in'.

My understanding relating to 'glazed' rotors is that they have areas where the surface of the metal has become hardened by the interaction of temperature and pad pressure acting upon the rotor surface.

This creates a change in the friction co-efficient of the cast iron surface that in itself may or may not be a significant problem, but if the glazing is not uniform over the rotor may result in a pulsating braking effect. It seems obvious that if any 'glazing' is not uniform from one rotor to the other, then this could cause unequal beaking effect side to side.

[Mugen Civic]

Are your rotors worn, warped, lipped or past the minimum thickness? If not, just keep using it.

Nope, rotors are fine.
No warps, still new no lip. They were replaced around 5000kms ago

i'm using slotted disc. Doesn't that mean that the gas build up doesn't occur because its released through the gap in the slots? Or does it only aid in reducing the gas build up but still doesn't remove it 100%...

So, what you guys reckon i should try first? replace pads or fluid?
Of course if doing one of thous first doesn't fix the problem, i will do both.

Lemme also add, the brakes are working. But, its not working the same like its not biting as soon as it used to (fade?) and there is slightly spongy feeling. I wonder if that helps more in the description.

Just doing these fixes even though the brakes do work, maybe fine to some peoples standards, but i just want to feel safe again like it used to before i punished the brakes on the track day. So yea heh...

Pads or fluid first?

Thanks again for all your inputs. Really appreciate it =)

[hoey888]

Please explain the mechanism by which water free brake fluid beomes water contaminated merely as a result of having exceeded the temperature at which it boils?


Brake fluid bottles are always sold in sealed containers. This is to eliminate water moisture build up within the bottle which reduces shelf life and effectiveness. When the brake fluid is opened from the bottle, it is exposed to the humidity which creates some moisture within the fluid. Even though its very minimial, its still moisture bottom line.

Another area moisture enters is via condensation, in a simiular way to dew on frostly winter mornings on your car. Variations in temperatures cause this to occur.




Brake fade occurs when the brake pad becomes severely overheated and (sometimes quite suddenly) gives off so much gas (often as smoke, though the gas may not be visible) that the friction material is no longer in contact with the rotor surface, but is in effect 'aqua-planing' in a microscopically thin layer of highly pressurised gas.

When this occurs the gas just cannot escape fast enough from between the pad and rotor surfaces no matter how much pressure is applied to the pads by the pistons. In effect the brake becomes very effectively 'lubricated' by the gas.

Mate, here you seem to be explaining brake glazing as oppose to brake fade here.

When you brake, friction occurs. This gives off heat and brake dust. The heat is radiated and conducted throughout the brake components. The brakes have a brake line which has brake fluid within it. All this heat has to go somewhere and usually ends up in the brake fluid. This brake fluid is what lies between your brake pedal and your brakes. When this fluid experiences extreme temperature variations, it loses effectiveness due to moisture during bleeding as well as via condensation creating the 'brake fade effect' where your brakes feel like shit and dont seem to work as well.

By bleeding your brakes regularly, brake fade is reduced making the brake pedal feel smoother and more consistent. With brake fluid, you get what you pay for, so better to pay a bit more here unless your intending to bleed regularly. Aftermarket brake fluids are able to cope with higher moisture levels and heat levels before experiencing performance losses.

Under extreme braking, (eg track racing) the extreme heat creates gases caused by the breakdown/melting the brake pad. This causes a 'glazing effect' on the brake pad, making it shiny and smooth. (Think of glazed krespy kreme donuts). If the brake pad is smooth it is not going to be effective to create enough friction to stop which is a bad thing.

By replacing with brake fluid which exceeds OEM manufacter recommendations, the aim of this is to allow your brake fluid to withstand more heat before the brake pads breakdown/melt. This will reduce the chances of your brakes 'glazing' in future.

[hoey888]

Nope, rotors are fine.
No warps, still new no lip. They were replaced around 5000kms ago
Ok.... are the brakes pulsing at all when coming to a near stop?



i'm using slotted disc. Doesn't that mean that the gas build up doesn't occur because its released through the gap in the slots? Or does it only aid in reducing the gas build up but still doesn't remove it 100%...

By having a slotted disc, this allows the gases to escape more easily. If you've already got slotted discs, you shouldn't need to sand your pads to remove the glaze. This is because the slots within the disc/rotor effectively wipe your brake pad clean when you brake. Therefore glazing will be minimised with normal daily driving over time.



So, what you guys reckon i should try first? replace pads or fluid?
Of course if doing one of thous first doesn't fix the problem, i will do both.

Lemme also add, the brakes are working. But, its not working the same like its not biting as soon as it used to (fade?) and there is slightly spongy feeling. I wonder if that helps more in the description.

Just doing these fixes even though the brakes do work, maybe fine to some peoples standards, but i just want to feel safe again like it used to before i punished the brakes on the track day. So yea heh...


Think of the two scenarios

Mechanic says: "Oh yes pads are stuff and need replacement"....replacing pads is more profitable and they will also bleed your brakes in the process... so its a win-win for the mechanics

hoey888 says: "Unless brake pads are at the indicators, why replace them?... try changing the brake fluid first.".... if you got $$$ to waste then why not, but changing brake fluid will be more cost efficent. give the rbf600 ($36) or rbf660 ($43) a try. These are trade prices at Autobarn...forget the cheapo stuff as you won't be getting full potential of your brakes. just my opionion, as it seems to work for me when i go racing

[JohnL]

Brake fluid bottles are always sold in sealed containers. This is to eliminate water moisture build up within the bottle which reduces shelf life and effectiveness. When the brake fluid is opened from the bottle, it is exposed to the humidity which creates some moisture within the fluid. Even though its very minimial, its still moisture bottom line.

Yes of course, none of that is incorrect, but it doesn't explain the implication of your earlier statement that overheating the fluid will result in moisture contaminating the fluid (at least this is how I read what you said). My contention is that this is incorrect. Moisture contaminates brake fluid slowly over time as a result of ambient atmospheric humidity, not suddenly as a result of the fluid being overheated.

You said; "mate, after going to trackdays, a general rule of thumb is to bleed your brakes. doesn't matter what you use, coz the brake fluid will have boiled and will have moisture in it. the stuff you put in is gonna be 100% beter than the stuff you used on the track."

Frankly this makes no sense. You assume that the fluid will definitely have boiled, which of course is far from necessarily being the case. You assume that the fluid will definitely have significant water content (seemingly as a result of having boiled?), which again is not necessarily the case.

It makes little sense even if we read it to mean that moisture was already in the fluid before the 'track day', because in that case you should have changed the fluid before the track day, not after it (which would be a very good idea by the way, i.e. replacing the fluid before tracking the car if there is any doubt about the age / condition of the fluid).


Another area moisture enters is via condensation, in a simiular way to dew on frostly winter mornings on your car. Variations in temperatures cause this to occur.

No, condensation has nothing to do with it. Moisture is absorbed very gradually (molecule by molecule) over time through the various seals in the hydraulic system, from the humidity in the air. In the old days this was a much worse problem because (to account for expansion / contraction) master cylinder reseviours were vented directly to atmosphere without any rubber diapgram to keep the air away from the fluid (albeit vented through a tiny little hole in the reseviour cap).


Mate, here you seem to be explaining brake glazing as oppose to brake fade here.

No, I'm explaining the mechanism by which brake fade occurs (i.e. pads giving off gas), not glazing which is different (i.e. melting of the pad surfaces which then re-harden in an altered state). Glazing may occur if the pads are overheated, but not necessarily. The pads may give off significant quanities of gas before they actually melt, and just because they didn't melt doesn't mean they were not overheated.

Glazing is called 'glazing' because the pad surface melts and then hardens into a glasslike substance. Do you see the connection between 'glass' and 'glazing'? There is no connection as such between ‘gassing’ and ‘glazing’…


All this heat has to go somewhere and usually ends up in the brake fluid.

Well, the vast majority is dissipated from the rotor by conduction into the surrounding air, and radiated into space, but yes the fluid in the caliper does get quite hot (not nearly as hot as the rotor and pads though). The majority of the heat that conducts into the fluid does so via the piston. This would be worse if the piston were fitted the other way around (i.e. with the piston cup facing the other way so that no insulating air pocket existed between the fluid and the pad's backing plate).


When this fluid experiences extreme temperature variations, it loses effectiveness due to moisture during bleeding

Brake fluid doesn't lose effectiveness as a result of temperature until the temperature becomes high enough to boil the fluid. It's the fact that the fluid has boiled and as result (compressible) gas bubbles (i.e. vapourised brake fluid and possibly a significant amount of water) have temporarily formed in the fluid that is the direct problem, but as soon as the temperature falls below the boiling point these bubbles of vapourised liquid dissappear, the gas again becoming a liquid (i.e. brake fluid, and some water).

This can of course occur whether or not the fluid has any water content at all, water only lowers the boiling point of the brake fluid from that which it would be in an unadulterated state. The amount of water absorbed during brake bleeding is quite minimal, though it would be advisable to avoid brake bleeding on very humid days, and to have any containers and the reseviour open for as short a time as practiaclly possible.


as well as via condensation

Condensation isn't an issue.


creating the 'brake fade effect' where your brakes feel like shit and dont seem to work as well.

By bleeding your brakes regularly, brake fade is reduced making the brake pedal feel smoother and more consistent.

I can see why brake loss due to any factor might come to be called "brake fade" (and this may possibly vary from region to region?), but my understanding is that it is commonly accepted as referring to braking problems caused by pad gassing as opposed to any other cause, i.e. overheated pads giving off gas, even if they don't actually melt. Bleeding the brakes has no affect on brake fade caused by problems with the brake pads.

In my experience boiling the fluid causes the pedal to suddenly hit the floor, there not being much 'fading out' about it, though the pedal may become a little spongy just prior to the brakes disappearing altogether.


With brake fluid, you get what you pay for, so better to pay a bit more here unless your intending to bleed regularly. Aftermarket brake fluids are able to cope with higher moisture levels and heat levels before experiencing performance losses.

I found some useful info on various brake fluids:

file:///C:/DOCUME~1/User/LOCALS~1/Temp/SHO3brakefluid.html


Under extreme braking, (eg track racing) the extreme heat creates gases caused by the breakdown/melting the brake pad. This causes a 'glazing effect' on the brake pad, making it shiny and smooth. (Think of glazed krespy kreme donuts). If the brake pad is smooth it is not going to be effective to create enough friction to stop which is a bad thing.

Not quite. As I said above the pads can give off gas before they actually melt. I've faded pads, and after cooling down they performed more or less the same as before they were overheated, but glazed pads don't perform the same after they've cooled off.

Glazing isn't to do with "smoothness" of the pads, it's to do with the changed molecular characteristics of the pad materials in their altered re-solidified state. Note that new pads can gas and glaze much more easily with relatively moderate use because the surface of the new pad isn't 'cured' in the way that a bedded in pad's surface is (which I think from memory is to do with the binding resins etc that hold the pad together).


By replacing with brake fluid which exceeds OEM manufacter recommendations, the aim of this is to allow your brake fluid to withstand more heat before the brake pads breakdown/melt. This will reduce the chances of your brakes 'glazing' in future.

The characteristics of the fluid have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the pads will become glazed or not. If anything you could argue a case that stated that the more resistant the fluid is to boiling the greater the possibility of melting the pads because the fluid now won't boil before the pads become overheated, i.e. you improve the fluid so the weak link moves from being the fluid to being the pads...

[hoey888]

Yes of course, none of that is incorrect....


JohnL... i'm not going to make this a flame thread, just giving my opinions and experiences. but hey if your too stubborn to take things from another perspective, then so be it.


Mugen Civic... read over this, and do as you wish. i'm out of here, pm me if you want any help

peace out boys!

[JohnL]

By having a slotted disc, this allows the gases to escape more easily.

Which is also why most pads have slots machined into the pad, but this isn't as efficient as the rotor slots which dynamically traverse the pad surface.


If you've already got slotted discs, you shouldn't need to sand your pads to remove the glaze. This is because the slots within the disc/rotor effectively wipe your brake pad clean when you brake. Therefore glazing will be minimised with normal daily driving over time.

But, it will take time, possibly quite a long time considering that the glaze can be quite hard. The edges of the slots will constantly 'machine' off a very small amount of pad material in use, which does help keep pad surfaces 'fresher', but does add significantly to pad wear...


hoey888 says: "Unless brake pads are at the indicators, why replace them?...

Usually because the pads have substantial taper wear, which can increase pedal travel. I sand my worn pads back to even thickness, which makes it feel like I have new pads (which in effect is the case) and saves money...

[JohnL]

JohnL... i'm not going to make this a flame thread, just giving my opinions and experiences. but hey if your too stubborn to take things from another perspective, then so be it.


It's nothing personal, and I'm not trying give you the shits, just correcting some obviously incorrect understandings. If this results in someone getting offended then so be it, but that's not the intention...