Crossover or Processor? active/non-active?

[liquid23]

Heys,

I ask westside audio about my SQ setup. He said that going active with a Bit One.1 Processor is better than using the Focal crossover. Is this true?

I have 2 audison amps, 4 ch and mono. Focal/Audison front splits top end.

Does going active let you control each individual speaker? rather than a crossover that has a set setting and is harder to tune than a processor where you can just plug it into a laptop which he said in the email.

he said that the cons about going active is that you need an amp for front splits and read splits because each channel is devoted to 1 speaker. So it is better to get a good quality amp and front splits and if want read then just buy a cheap 2ch audison amp with focal rears.
OR
just stick with crossovers, no processor.

appreciate any help, new to ICE

[shoppingsecure]

Active is a lot more complicated and expensive but it gives you far more freedom to tune the system. When I eventually build the showcar for my business I will definitely be going active and using several 2 channel amplifiers instead of 4 channels. This will ensure that every speaker is isolated and under my control, allowing the highest possible sound quality.

[trism]

imo a proper SQ setup has only front speakers+sub. rear speakers drag the stage backwards, which is not what you want.

i ran active in a car that i actively competed in an Australia wide SQ competition, 3 way front stage, and sub.

i used an alpine headunit+processor combination and alpine amps to run it all

[liquid23]

oh ok so having 2x2 channel is better to than 1 4 channel?

I found that active is cheaper because the focal kit 7 with crossover is ~4k and active kit is ~2.5k. Bit One.1 processor is >1k
so active kit + processor is only 3.5k which is less than the 4k complete set.

hopefully the guy can find out prices soon so i can do it. or else i'll be using money for other mods haha

Which subs are good? InCar mag says Morel 12" Ultimo are winners 2 years running and the Focal 33WX2 is highly recommended. Morel seems to use more power and produce more but Focal has a nice SQ also with good bass. Morel is also few hundred $$ cheaper.

Is it true to have all the same brand equipment? i.e. front splits, subs, rears, processor. The amps can be a different brand but have to be from the same company.

Wonder how the Audison TH3 front splits sound like as they won as well.

[shoppingsecure]

Do you have a link to the awards list?

[liquid23]

i bought the magazine but there is a link but you can't see what is written in the pages of course just names of winners in categories.
http://www.avhub.com.au/Features.aspx?MagazineID=7&FeatureID=98

I have scanned from the mag, not that clear but can still read.
images are way to big for here so i have links
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3198/incar.jpg
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5138/incar001.jpg

[trism]

are you going to fully appreciate the sound or are you just spending the money because magazines say so?

you need to listen to speakers because they all sound different and suit different music.

some are really bright ans harsh, some have huge midbass, some suit hip hop/rap others suit jazz/classical

you need to go a proper car audio store (not jb hifi/strathfeild/autobarn or any other chain store) and audition speakers. you might find that you dont need to spend 4k on speakers when a $800 set will do you fine. dont forget you need to budget for amps, you should be spending the same amount or more than the speakers on amps. Also the install, wiring, sound deadening, it will all add up.





Is it true to have all the same brand equipment? i.e. front splits, subs, rears, processor. The amps can be a different brand but have to be from the same company.
l.


far from true.

[mad89]

If you're getting Focal Be, id be using the crossblock as its a fine piece of equipment. Focal designed it to be used with the speakers.

I run 3 way active + sub, but alot of people underestimate the power and quality of a GOOD passive setup. Ill be the first to admit that. If you're looking at Audison Thesis or Focal Be, then id be using their passives without a doubt.

You would also want to have decent amps, source, processing, cabling and one hell of an install (speaker positioning, deadening, etc etc) to do any of these high end speakers justice.

$5k speakers dont just sound good, theres so many variables. A $1000 set of splits, installed properly, would easily sound better than $5000 speakers installed poorly.

IMO mate, dont waste your money. If you cant answer your own question regarding active and passive, then IMO you dont have the knowledge, experience or ears to appreciate the brilliance of any of these $5k speaker sets. You said yourself, that you are new to ICE, you probably wouldnt hear the difference between the Focal Be, and Focal KRX2 which are $1099. Id recommend those, and go spend the $5k on the whole setup and youll be far happier. (Proper install with good cabling and sound deadening etc). Better still, go see your local dealer and tell them you have $1000 to spend on splits, and listen to as many sets as you can, and decide which sound better to YOUR ears with YOUR music that you listen to everyday, not the magazine article reviewers ears, with his music.

It looks to me you're just basing your opinions and spendings on the magazine articles, which is absolutely ridiculous.

[arverson]

gotta agree with trsim & mad89

if you have to ask about going active/passive/semi-active then id steer away from it. dont go active just for the sake of it cus its a lot more complicated than having each driver having its own dedicated amp channel. like mentioned, you really do need the knowledge, experience & ears before you even think about venturing into it.

as you're a new to audio, id say stick with splits in the $1000ish range. theres PLENTY of great sounding splits in that price bracket. then with those, focus on the install with everything thats been mentioned.

the price of your splits doesnt determine whether itll do well in a SQ competition ;)

dont get 5k speakers & go active/semi-active just because theres an option to.

[liquid23]

Thanks for everyone's point of view. I haven't based my opinions on the magazine, i bought it because i was going on a trip and i was going to be bored so i wanted to see what sound system people had and found that they were the top. I've chosen the focal be splits and subs before i saw the magazine.

I was going to buy the processor and the crossover but the other SQ people's opinions were to go active and just get the processor because its apparently better than the focal. I took their opinions in mind and what they had to say about the splits and subs.

Obviously the prices on the magazine are for RRP and in the store you get a way bigger discount than that. Also by going active it saves me 1k.
Being in Perth i can't audition much because not alot of people have such high end systems, i've asked the guy to get me any customer's car that has a high end setup so i can audition to. I would like to go to melb where they have the TH3 splits in the demo car.
I have the top end Audison amp so i just need to find splits and sub. I've heard the high mid range focal setups and they are good for a $5k setup, but i went for higher because i thought it would be better. I would really want to audition other people's SQ setup first, but not many people want others to know what is in their car incase of theft n things. I've been waiting since end of last year to do this setup and now i'm not even sure i want to do it but i have the amp that is sitting there doing nothing so i want to use it asap.

If you guys had a budget of lets say 8k or less just for equipment what would you recommend?

[mad89]

If you have $8k for equipment alone, how much are you spending on install?

Id recommend Focal KRX2 2 ways, or KRX3 3 ways if you want to go down that path. Theyre $1099 and $1649 respectively. Theres sooooo many on the market though, are you wanting 2 way or 3 way splits? Dynaudio, Morel, Diamond Audio, Boston Acoustics, DLS, Hertz...

What is this top end amp you have?

Use a high end source like a Clarion HXD2, which will have enough tunability to tune any of the above. Itll do 3 way active + sub. No need for external processing.

Or you could use a different HU for CD transport only, and go with the Audison BitOne.1 also. Alpine 9887 or Eclipse CD7200mkII, in conjunction with the BitOne.1 would work fine.

You'd want shit loads of sound deadening and the installers to position the speakers properly for you for best staging and imaging and overall sound quality. If theyre just going to whack them in factory locations, then dont bother.

Just remember your gear is only as good as your install. Shit speakers installed well, will outperform awesome splits installed poorly.

[liquid23]

spending a fair bit on install cause of sound deadening and wires etc.
he is selling dynamat xtreme for $275 bulk pack? is that cheap? need a fair few, want to do boot, floor, 4 doors (inner and outer skin), roof.

i have the TH Quattro amp and apline w502e HU.
I'm going for 3-way. i think i can get the utopia be no.7 for 2.3k. yet to get all prices from him. Audio shops here can get other brands but they haven't worked with them before. I've listened to the Morel splits and they are good. Going to audition a Jeep with Hertz MLK3 system in front hertz MLK2 system in rear with 4 Audison amps and 2 x Hertz Mille subs.
i asked a few questions about the differences between the morel/focal subs and TH3/BE splits. This is the feedback

1. Subwoofers.
Choosing between the 33WX2 and Ultimo12 is always going to be a hard decision. Both are very accurate subwoofers and both can perform very fast subsonic transients without large amounts of audible breakup and distortion. The Ultimo12 requires a much larger enclosure to do so though. In order to achieve an enclosure ‘Q’ of around 0.65 (which is what we aim for once cabin gain is taken into account, not 0.707) the Ultimo12 requires the better part of 2cf! The 33WX2 will extend a tad lower (it’s unaffected F3 point is about 5Hz-10Hz lower than the Ultimo in the right enclosure) and this is mainly due to its suspension stiffness (see its FS and VAS values). However at the end of the day; the less a subwoofer cone moves the more concentric and hence in control the suspension remains. So provided the amplifier has the damping factor (i.e. power) to control the cone deceleration I’d lean towards the larger coned 33WX2. Add to this too; the fact that it’s sandwich cone design also allows for smoother damping in the higher frequency range (70Hz-120Hz) than the Kevlar cone of the Ultimo12. Both very good subwoofers though.

As for which is more powerful; the Ultimo12 requires a lot more power but this is due to its larger motor design rather than sheer output SP level. Both subwoofers use radically different technology to cool their magnet, former and voice coil. The Ultimo12 uses the ScanSpeak methodology that sees the magnet in the center of rather than wrapped around the voice coil (as in a conventional design). The result is a huge 5” voice coil whose outer surface remains largely open to the air (meaning plenty flows over it during large excursions). The Focal on the other hand uses JBLabs’ patented ‘power flower’ where the various strontium stacks lining the perimeter allow plenty of air to flow directly between them and into the motor itself. This results in a smaller motor within. Put simply; the reason the Ultimo12 needs so much more power is that the sheer mass of the 5” motor.

2. Midranges.
Moving along to the midranges and again you’re faced with a very tough choice. I use the Utopia 3” in my car so I could be accused of bias but remember too that we built the original Audison Thesis demo car so extensive testing was also conducted here on the TH3. Both the BE3 and TH3 are very linear with little over 1dB variation within their response range (standing free-air / not in car). In the end it will come down to the colouring of the sound you prefer. I like a more smoother response with very little edge myself so I choose the BE3. The TH3 are a very nice driver but I found them to be a little too edgy in their attack at some frequencies for my tastes. The top end roll off on the TH3 is a little lower too meaning the tweeter has to go a little lower and hence do more work.

Marty Price

Here is another POV, copied only certain sections

I cannot advise on if these speakers would suit this customer over the Focal, they are an excellent SQ speaker, Paul Graham (ex Alpine) loves them
but at the end of the day music and what speaker sounds best to you is totally subjective, what I can say is that everyone who has listened to my car
has been very impressed and that these are hand built in Italy and are the flag ship speaker of Elettromedia.
NOTE: If you were using Bit One.1 you would not use the Focal crossover.

Henry AW – current IASCA SQ champion of Indonesia has just flown to Australia and purchased a new BMW X6 as well as over $40,000 worth of TH Amplifiers, TH speakers and two Bit One.1 units which will be installed in to the vehicle, Henry does not spend his money unless it is the best available.

Philip Kent

[mad89]

You're doing the right thing in talking with Marty/Fhrx and Philip Kent/RMA. Im sure neither will lead you astray.

'Good install' isnt just about throwing in a few bulk packs of sound deadening. Thats one aspect, good quality wiring and interconnects is another, but most importantly proper speaker positioning and taking the time to experiment with speaker locations to see what sounds best etc. You also need the ears to be able to tell what sounds good and what sounds like crap. A good reference system (such as a decent quality stereo home theatre setup) will give you an idea of what the discs are supposed to sound like, and something to aim for when tuning your car.

What car is it? Are you going with custom mounting locations for the midrange and tweeters? Custom A-pilllars? Kickpanels? Door pods?

Do you know how to tune time allignment, crossovers and parametric and/or graphic EQ? Know what they are and what they do? Theres ALOT to play with in both the HXD2 and/or Audison BitOne.1. Since you already have the 502E, then id go with the BitOne.1 and run optical to it.

As for the Bulk Packs, chat to Marty, hell look after you.

[liquid23]

car is civic 07 model.
all mountings will be custom made. wiring i think i will stick either to the audison high end range or monster cables 0g.
I will have some help in tuning the cars from SQ winners that win for few years straight. Also people who have been in the industry for a long time. After spending a day tuning i will take it out for a drive for a week or so. See how it is maybe change a little until it is perfect.

[mad89]

Nice nice.

Connection Audison cable is very very nice cabling. They make awesome accessories and RCAs too. You cant go wrong there. Nice choice.

What SQ winners? As far as im aware there is no SQ scene in WA?

Where is it getting done at out of curiosity? :)

[trism]

you fail

you should know well there is an SQ scene in WA, at least there was last year and the year before

[liquid23]

i always thought there was? some places have their own small SQ competitions.
Custom work by Beyond Custom (Leon) and parts/tuning from Westside Car Audio (Ken/Mark/others).
or whoever i can grab that knows a great deal

I hear that Audison cables can be very expensive. How much money should i put aside for cabling? $800?

I either plan to go all audison except for subs focal/morel
or focal splits, audison amps, morel/focal subs
only going to put 2x12" subs. custom boot install later.

[mad89]

Connection Audison cable is very expensive. Its hard to put a dollar figure on it on how much you should spend.

Just go with whats required, like if you need 0ga and 4ga power, then get that. Last time i checked, the 0ga was $74/m retail. And i think around $200 a pair for their top end Sonus RCAs (dont quote me on that though, im not certain).

You should also consider Stinger wiring, which is considerably cheaper, and also of high quality.

You dont need to stick to the same brands, go with whatever sounds best to you.

Try and audition the Focal KRX3. Im considering this set myself (though slightly modified to use the 100KRS 4" midrange rather than the 3"), which should save you some cash. Ask yourself if you really NEED to spend $3000 on speakers. Will you hear the difference over a $1500 set?

The Morel Ultimo12 is a very nice sub, ive heard it, but havent listened very critically. From what i have heard though its certainly impressive. Ive also listened extensively to Marty/Fhrx's Focal Be setup with the Focal 33KX sub (i think it is, i could be wrong?), and its also am impressive sub.

You really need to listen to determine yourself what you like, people can only advise so much. I guess if your ears prefer the sound of the Focal Be, and you have the cash to dump on them, then go for it!

Just make sure you post pics when done! :D :D

[arverson]

instrested to see how this goes

show us a SQ scoresheet when that time comes :D

and please dont turn into a SPL head :p

[liquid23]

oh for going active if i use 3 way splits i need a 4 channel and 2 channel in order to active right? i can't go active using a 4 channel on 3 way only 2 way splits?

Installer is just spraying his supra again. he has CDT HD or something in there and i will listen to it when he puts everything back in a week or two. He also says depending on the setup using a crossover or not will make it sound bad or good. it really depends. Need lots of original CDs so i can test sound quality.

It SUCKS that Westside car audio the ONLY focal dealer in WA has no Utopia's to audition.

[mad89]

CDT is a great European brand. Theyre very highly regarded overseas, and have only just been brought to the Australian market in the past few months.

There is still very little of them out there though. Audition them if you can, for sure.

And yes, for 3 way splits to be run fully active, youll need 6 channels of amplification. :)


He also says depending on the setup using a crossover or not will make it sound bad or good. it really depends.

Not quite sure what hes talking about here.