Opinions - B18CR Bottom End with Alaniz head

[ewendc2r]

Hi all,

Got a chance to pickup an Alaniz head which are apparently one of the better heads around with a street port -- Looking a Jun Type 3 cams ..

Question is and I've looked high and low with varied comments:

On a stock bottom end, is the Jun Type 3 too aggressive for stock bottom end? I don't want rev limited much higher than 9100rpm and I understand these cams make power through to around 9000rpm?

I also understand you really need CR of around 11.5:1 - 12.5:1 for these cams to really shine, given basic .020" machining, stock CR should approach 11.5:1 yeah?

From people with experience out there -- What are your thoughts? Apparently Jun Type 3 is like a Toda B, but can get a good deal on the Jun shafts..

[B20NA]

should get your head flow tested, as for Jun 3 cam's will best suit 12.5 : 1 comp, but you also need a good exhaust manifold and ect to get best results.

[tinkerbell]

you could use the CTR pistons to get a higher CR (12+) if you want to keep it an OEM bottom end...

[Benson]

I personally wouldn't use CTR, they dont seem to work so well in a B18c Block

[tinkerbell]

why, what happens?

[Benson]

CTR pistons work well in b16a blocks but not in b18c's for some reason. IF you can show me a set-up that is working well with CTR piston it might sway my opinion

[delsol9000rpms]

if the CTR pistons bring the comp up then why wouldnt they work well... care to share your reason?

[TODA AU]

I’ve gotta say I’m with Benny on this one…
If you use B16C CTR pistons,
Without machining the block, you’re already approaching a zero deck
(0.006” to move on a virgin block)
The pin height of the B16B piston is 30.73mm
The B18CR piston pin height is 30.23mm
With only 0.005” machined off the head & block combined,
You’ll have a compression ratio of 12.9:1
This can be troublesome with 98RON fuel & short duration cams.
(With comp this high, you’re better off with E85 or race fuel)
If 0.010” of material is removed, you’ll have to look a 0.8mm or even 1.0mm head gaskets to maintain acceptable piston to head clearance.
As a side note, I don’t like the crowns on CTR pistons either.

If you’re on a budget & want respectable gains from the head & cam swap
& the bottom end is actually in good condition & fine to re-use…
Pull it down, tickle it a bit here & there & strap it back together.
It’ll only cost you a bit of time, some machining & a set of gaskets
(You're swapping the head anyway so it's not much extra work IMO)
.
Keep your original B18C7 pistons…
& machine no more than 0.020” off the top of the block…
This will give you a comp of 12.1:1 (assuming the chambers aren’t bigger & the head isn’t shaved)
To get it right, you will have to do a bit of measuring & a few sums,
But, you can have 12.0:1 C/R with little spent
IMO this will work better on 98RON pump fuel than moving the CTR pistons.
& you’ve maintain acceptable piston to head clearance with original head gasket.
Once it’s ready to go back together, you’ll need to get the cam timing right or your piston to valve clearance will become an issue.

[tinkerbell]

fair enough, piston to head contact is never desirable!

[fatboyz39]

if the CTR pistons bring the comp up then why wouldnt they work well... care to share your reason?

Compression is not the answer to good power without the rest of the combination right and so far CTR pistons in any B series with more than 77.4mm stroke is a problem.I have read of a few yank setups that work
but they have big dollar cyl heads on them.If you do it the way Toda says you cant go wrong very simple build.

[delsol9000rpms]

wasnt arguing with anyone just wanted to know why people dont use those pistons. thanks for the explanation. .

[jdmTYPE R]

a lil modification on the ctr piston will get it to work fine...

[fatboyz39]

a lil modification on the ctr piston will get it to work fine...
So why are you going to a B20 then?

[jdmTYPE R]

im staying with 1.8 with forged internal

[ewendc2r]

I’ve gotta say I’m with Benny on this one…
If you use B16C CTR pistons,
Without machining the block, you’re already approaching a zero deck
(0.006” to move on a virgin block)
The pin height of the B16B piston is 30.73mm
The B18CR piston pin height is 30.23mm
With only 0.005” machined off the head & block combined,
You’ll have a compression ratio of 12.9:1
This can be troublesome with 98RON fuel & short duration cams.
(With comp this high, you’re better off with E85 or race fuel)
If 0.010” of material is removed, you’ll have to look a 0.8mm or even 1.0mm head gaskets to maintain acceptable piston to head clearance.
As a side note, I don’t like the crowns on CTR pistons either.

If you’re on a budget & want respectable gains from the head & cam swap
& the bottom end is actually in good condition & fine to re-use…
Pull it down, tickle it a bit here & there & strap it back together.
It’ll only cost you a bit of time, some machining & a set of gaskets
(You're swapping the head anyway so it's not much extra work IMO)
.
Keep your original B18C7 pistons…
& machine no more than 0.020” off the top of the block…
This will give you a comp of 12.1:1 (assuming the chambers aren’t bigger & the head isn’t shaved)
To get it right, you will have to do a bit of measuring & a few sums,
But, you can have 12.0:1 C/R with little spent
IMO this will work better on 98RON pump fuel than moving the CTR pistons.
& you’ve maintain acceptable piston to head clearance with original head gasket.
Once it’s ready to go back together, you’ll need to get the cam timing right or your piston to valve clearance will become an issue.


Thanks for that -- when you say a tickle, you mean rebore,hone etc new rings yada yada -- I don't want to pull the block out at the moment, much bigger job for one person that replacing a head.. Can I do anything worthwhile with the block still in the car? (Guessing I can drop the bottom end out and replace bearings etc too.. ) given the engine now has 120,000kms you may be right ... this is getting expensive quickly lol ..

[ewendc2r]

The heads comubstion chamber volume increased from like 39cc to 43.5cc

[tinkerbell]

that sounds strange?

[ewendc2r]

Alaniz takes a b16 head and then ports it -- This is the competition port, good for strong mid range and top end gains, the top level port is really for drag only...

So I am assuming during the reshaping of the combustion chamber and valve seat etc a little extra volume was found. With a stock Head Gasket he says will retain stock levels of compression -- I gotta believe him, he's got huge credit for a lot of cars in the states including Eriks Racing etc ...

[TODA AU]

Thanks for that -- when you say a tickle, you mean rebore,hone etc new rings yada yada -- I don't want to pull the block out at the moment, much bigger job for one person that replacing a head.. Can I do anything worthwhile with the block still in the car? (Guessing I can drop the bottom end out and replace bearings etc too.. ) given the engine now has 120,000kms you may be right ... this is getting expensive quickly lol ..

Re tickle...
No, not at all...
Yes you'l have to pull it down, & yes there is little machining required...
But total cost is only approx $100 + a few gaskets & seals.
Leave the bores, rings, crank & bearings alone if you were happy to before...
But - measure deck height...
Measure the piston to deck height...
& machine deck surface to acheive desired compression ratio.
Clean it up, use wet & dry (800) & your thumb for the edge at the top of the bore & put the pistons back in with an 81.00mm sleave...
Stay away from ring compressors & you'll shit it in.


The heads comubstion chamber volume increased from like 39cc to 43.5cc

So they're a little larger so the comp will be down just a touch...
Std is 42.7, you're up 0.8cc.
So we can asume you have deshrouded & CC'd chambers
You'll still be able to get 11.8:1 which is still nice on 98 :thumbsup:

[tinkerbell]

the thing that was strange was the 39cc...

even a VTiR head (smallest OEM cc) is 41.7

[ewendc2r]

ahh that sounds right -- don't have access to the email he sent me, i must've plucked that smaller reading from somewhere else lol (he said a B16 head, would that account for reduced cc volume of 39 or whatever i said?).. Yeah its a competition port with signficant work on the valve seats and combustion chamber. 11.8:1 is ok I guess, especially for the meanwhile (and as you said, I was happy with less before).

But the work you are talking about still requires me to pull the block out of the car which means its unlikely to be useable for at least 1 wk (and be a pain in the ass to get it to a workshop & expensive if I get them to do it all).. Is there any method for machining the block while in the car? What about honing?

What RPM is the Oil Pump gear good to? I think you said around 9200rpm Adrian? Bottom end should be good in stock form for around 9100rpm I figure from reading, with 9300rpm being the critical point and reliability comes into play.

If I didn't want to do any machining and assuming the block doesn't need it (block surface) could I drop the bottom end and rebuild with block in the car new rods / pistons that increase the CR maintaining stock deck height? Then I can effectively have a new engine as the crank should be in good nick.. With forged internals I 'should' be able to carry a much higher redline reliably yeah? I mean, it would likely support Toda C2 and M24X cams to around 9500rpm or so?

And lastly -- I understand with sleeving you should get them installed and then machine the deck. And I also understand this is a must as high rpm can crack cylinder wall, but what rpm is considered risky? ie Trying to figure out if this is necessary in any case if I am increasing rev limit over 9000rpm. Then I have little choice but to do the rebuild anyhow.

[CRXer]

maybe he adds some strategic material,measures then deshrouds/whatever :confused:

[fatboyz39]

ahh that sounds right -- don't have access to the email he sent me, i must've plucked that smaller reading from somewhere else lol (he said a B16 head, would that account for reduced cc volume of 39 or whatever i said?).. Yeah its a competition port with signficant work on the valve seats and combustion chamber. 11.8:1 is ok I guess, especially for the meanwhile (and as you said, I was happy with less before).

But the work you are talking about still requires me to pull the block out of the car which means its unlikely to be useable for at least 1 wk (and be a pain in the ass to get it to a workshop & expensive if I get them to do it all).. Is there any method for machining the block while in the car? What about honing?

What RPM is the Oil Pump gear good to? I think you said around 9200rpm Adrian? Bottom end should be good in stock form for around 9100rpm I figure from reading, with 9300rpm being the critical point and reliability comes into play.

If I didn't want to do any machining and assuming the block doesn't need it (block surface) could I drop the bottom end and rebuild with block in the car new rods / pistons that increase the CR maintaining stock deck height? Then I can effectively have a new engine as the crank should be in good nick.. With forged internals I 'should' be able to carry a much higher redline reliably yeah? I mean, it would likely support Toda C2 and M24X cams to around 9500rpm or so?

And lastly -- I understand with sleeving you should get them installed and then machine the deck. And I also understand this is a must as high rpm can crack cylinder wall, but what rpm is considered risky? ie Trying to figure out if this is necessary in any case if I am increasing rev limit over 9000rpm. Then I have little choice but to do the rebuild anyhow.

What are the intented use of the motor? What are your power goals?

As per clubitr thread - Air flow > compression.

[ewendc2r]

What are the intented use of the motor? What are your power goals?

As per clubitr thread - Air flow > compression.

I guess with the head and cam combination on the stock bottom end I would be dissapointed with less than 140kw@wheel peak and strong midrange.. Maybe 135kw would be a 'ok' improvement until bottom end is built. After that I guess 150kw is well on the cards but through all the parts not just the engine working hard etc -- Better flow, more efficient etc removal of parasitic losses etc.

[ewendc2r]

.. And its for time attack -- QR for starters.

[Benson]

I think you are concentrating too much on RPM's. (Ruin peoples motors) Ill rather work on the midrange then peak power overall

Going to a bigger displacement (b20) will be the more efficient way of doing things but if you know better with the 1.8 then its your choice

Listen to the guys that have done it already. Dont be stubborn, listen and learn from what have been said on both ozhonda and clubitr

[tinkerbell]

But the work you are talking about still requires me to pull the block out of the car which means its unlikely to be useable for at least 1 wk (and be a pain in the ass to get it to a workshop & expensive if I get them to do it all)..

look, seriously, no offence intended, but if this is your position/attitude/situation...

quit NOW.

the equation is: figure out how much it will cost and how long it will take and multiply one of those by two and the other by three...

it is random which costs 3x more more or takes 3x longer...

[tinkerbell]

I guess with the head and cam combination on the stock bottom end I would be dissapointed with less than 140kw@wheel peak and strong midrange..

btw - any examples of AU B18C7's running 140kW on stock bottom ends?

what bolt-ons did they have?

[ewendc2r]

I think you are concentrating too much on RPM's. (Ruin peoples motors) Ill rather work on the midrange then peak power overall

Going to a bigger displacement (b20) will be the more efficient way of doing things but if you know better with the 1.8 then its your choice

Listen to the guys that have done it already. Dont be stubborn, listen and learn from what have been said on both ozhonda and clubitr

*sigh* -- So you don't think its worthwhile doing unless I go ahead with a rebuild as well? i.e. Should I just keep it stock as a rock internally until I am ready to do a full build? Please see next post..

I would imagine stock CR / Bottom End and Toda B should be good for 135kw with stock head. I don't think an extra 5kw's is asking much with a ported head. I think that most people with 140kw or higher have already gone through an engine rebuild, not saying that the bottom end can't support that power in the first place?

[ewendc2r]

*sigh* -- So you don't think its worthwhile doing unless I go ahead with a rebuild as well? i.e. Should I just keep it stock as a rock internally until I am ready to do a full build? Please see next post..


Just lost a long bloody post argh ..

Tinkerbell -- I already know that, that is why I am so reserved against pulling the block out. I am well aware of the blow out effect of time and cost. Thus the reason of looking at installing the first.

Looking at it this way.

If the engine was stock as a rock, you'd likely want to cam the motor correct?

If you could get for the same price either a set of cams or a full head package, which way would you go?

On the basis that you would get the full head package instead, whats the harm of the benefit without having to drop the engine from the car? I don't understand why everyone is so adamant about rebuilding the motor / going all out when I still haven't seen a technical valid reason to support WHY other than 'you'll get more power'. IF the bottom end can rev happily to 9000rpm (which from my understanding the ITR bottom end can, to around 9300rpm pushing limits) then CR aside with a rebuild, why wouldn't putting a head package on that capitalises on that rev range (say Jun III) be appropriate? Especially given that the head can be re-used on future motors? The only shortfall I can see is that potentially the cam is still developing power at 9000rpm and due to the duration / ramp it is seemingly suitable for higher CR motors for most effective burn. But if that cam develops more midrange than the Toda B for example (which it is claimed to do) then whats the harm of setting the rev limit while the cam is still developing top end? Then when time comes to rebuild bottom end, same head can be used and with higher CR more potential power can be found... ??

The more I read, research and listen, the more confused I become.

[tinkerbell]

a worked head + cams wont get you to 140kW on stock bottom end, will it?

that is our point.

you named your goal.

we told you how (we think) is a good way to get there...

look, you have already bought the head, all you need to do is get cams, then install and tune it.

easy done in a weekend, and might get you to 130kW (if the head is suitable)...

you want more?

you gotta drop the block or try ITBs or F/I.

[tinkerbell]

I would imagine stock CR / Bottom End and Toda B should be good for 135kw with stock head. I don't think an extra 5kw's is asking much with a ported head. I think that most people with 140kw or higher have already gone through an engine rebuild, not saying that the bottom end can't support that power in the first place?

ahhh, OK, so you are talking imaginary Toda watts?

for some perspective:

a B18C7 with Toda B cams and 4-2-1 header + Mugen intake plus full dyno tune made 120kW...

and has trouble keeping up with a worked B20VTEC that made 120kW on the same dyno.

[ewendc2r]

ahhh, OK, so you are talking imaginary Toda watts?

for some perspective:

a B18C7 with Toda B cams and 4-2-1 header + Mugen intake plus full dyno tune made 120kW...

and has trouble keeping up with a worked B20VTEC that made 120kW on the same dyno.

Imaginary Toda Watts? I thought they were one of the more reliable groups with regards to reported power outputs? Jansen's car on Toda B's put out around 135kw+ I understand which I was I'd expect over stock for a 'mild' cam? Weird .. ?

I am taking in everything you are saying, just thinking through multiple scenarious and can't get my head around your experiences / recommendations.. If I'm only going to achieve another 9kw on stock bottom end from a built / ported head, then I'll bin the idea now. It sounds like it'd be more beneficial getting a set of ITB's and running them off the stock motor.

This is getting hard over the forum, I think I can more easily explan myself over the phone if someone wouldn't mind lending me their ear and a bit of time tonight / one night? Probably sort out all my questions / issues quicker.

Also, a comment was said that flow is more important than compression, can you elaborate for my circumstances? Is it a catch 22, i.e. No point having high compression without good flow, and no point having high flow without high compression? (which would make sense to a degree).

thanks.

[tinkerbell]

yes, you said "i imagine" that xyz...

i am comparing 120kW to 120kW on the same dyno,

for reference, here are other numbers from the same dyno:

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113406

here is another thread to read to 'calibrate' your imagination:

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91415


I think I can more easily explan myself over the phone if someone wouldn't mind lending me their ear and a bit of time tonight / one night? Probably sort out all my questions / issues quicker.

some contact details for you to consider:

http://www.todaracing.com.au/toda/gp/

[Benson]

We have both told you what route to go about things. End of the day displacement is always greater. Like yourself Tinks, you have seen the potential of stock rebuilt B20vtec. Even with around 10:1 CR, b20's can make up to 135kw with stock ITR head

[fatboyz39]

9300rpm on a stock ITR bottom end wont last long.

[fatboyz39]

look, seriously, no offence intended, but if this is your position/attitude/situation...

quit NOW.

the equation is: figure out how much it will cost and how long it will take and multiply one of those by two and the other by three...

it is random which costs 3x more more or takes 3x longer...

Agreed:thumbsup:

[ewendc2r]

I hate this time out thing with posts ARGH! Just lost a massive reply. Skinny of it is this.

I'm listening to you, I am. Your advice is basically don't get the head until I build the bottom end. And then if I do build the bottom end, increase displacement to 2L. There is no middle ground.

Based on the prediction by TB that power is likely to be more like 130kw with the head in comparison 121kw as it is now with stock bottom end, it is likely more benefical then to get some ITB's (I still can't believe I'd only see a 9kw gain out of a ported head and aggressive cams). Some of you agreed to this (buying ITB's instead).

My point is, since I will have to buy a head at some stage for the new build, and the fact that I can use the same head on the current motor and then on the built motor, how is the logic to buying this different to buying ITB's (which I can also use on a new motor)?

TB -- Since my car outputted 106kW with IHE un-tuned, and 107kW on a different dyno, I am assuming that both of these dynos were calibrated / corrected (somewhat) as this is also the output reported as normal for mods by many others. The power figure you claimed for Toda B being 120kW is surely therefore a low-reading? And how on earth can I then give you my goals if those goals depend on the dyno I go to? i.e 140kw to me may be what you know as 130kw, or vica versa.

Have you seen Toda B output higher than 120kW on stock bottom end? Regardless of Dyno? I don't think I've ever seen lower than 125kW..?

I've been told a lot of 'do this' and 'don't do that', but have had little reasoning on 'why' except from Adrian with respect to the CTR pistons.. I didn't want to bother him / use his time when unlikely he is getting business out of it -- Thats why I posted here, otherwise I would have called him straight away. I am taking your wisdoms and experience and trying to apply them to my situation where I have restrictions. Thats why I am asking why you made those decisions. I do appreciate all your input.

(and that was the skinny version)

[ewendc2r]

Benson -- I read the Cam Thread and saw post number 403 where you are talking about the BYP 124kw@wheels car needing larger cams (i.e Toda C). Isn't he running stock internals as well? Why would you recommend differently here? Only difference is ITB's really, which are on the cards in any case.

(Again -- The reason I ask is to understand from your experience).

[tinkerbell]

maybe re-phrase your question, in light of the input you have considered?


Thats why I am asking why you made those decisions

FYI - i built my B20VTEC for the reasons i told you BEFORE: http://www.clubitr.com.au/forums/showpost.php?p=152460&postcount=15

but that was when you were talking about S/C vs N/A

so can we get a clarification of what it is you seek? or is it that you are unsure of what you want, hence why you seem so confused?

[tinkerbell]

121kw as it is now with stock bottom end

so your car is 121kW at the front wheels now?

what is your goal? 140?

you want to see 19kW from head + cams? 15% increase?

[Benson]

Benson -- I read the Cam Thread and saw post number 403 where you are talking about the BYP 124kw@wheels car needing larger cams (i.e Toda C). Isn't he running stock internals as well? Why would you recommend differently here? Only difference is ITB's really, which are on the cards in any case.

(Again -- The reason I ask is to understand from your experience).

I think i was being a shit stirrer. But yeh, that b16a made decent peak power but didnt drive as nice as the 118kw when it had ITB's.

Look man, buy a b20 and build that with the head you bought slap it on. Then you can salvage your ITR motor and sell it for 2.5-3k as a long block. Your not thinking, why hack up a good ITR motor?

[82911]

Only slightly off topic... but could be useful for the OP.
For the record... the problem with CTR pistons or any high dome piston for that matter, is one of flame propogation. The flame front can be irratic due to the high dome design blocking some of the chamber floor until the piston has moved well past TDC.
ALL this can be overcome with good tuning and a cartridge wheel pointed in the right direction.
Some people won't tell their reasoning behind their dislike for CTR's... most likely because they are regurgitating something they read and don't actually understand what is happening in the chamber when the fire is lit. I think they call tem "urban myths";)

[tinkerbell]

Only slightly off topic... but could be useful for the OP.
For the record... the problem with CTR pistons or any high dome piston for that matter, is one of flame propogation. The flame front can be irratic due to the high dome design blocking some of the chamber floor until the piston has moved well past TDC.

can the design of the combustion chamber assist this also?

i.e. when obtaining a worked on head - like the OP intends, what is there to look for?

welded up quench area?

[ewendc2r]

Benson -- I realise this is what you are saying, just go the whole hog off the bat. I'll price it up but its more the fact that I don't have access to suitable environment for an engine build nor do i have access to the tools. So I was 'hoping' to install this head for starters, then put the same head on a built block down the track in say 12 months, when it is more ... convenient.

TB - Yes - I am estimating increase of at least 10% top end from cams alone. I think the head work may net another 3-5%. I will be removing AC at minimum to reduce parasitic drag. Thinking of getting an electric water pump to remove the losses there as well. I don't think that is unreasonable .. ?

I am clear in what I want, how I go about it as another thing... I want a road registered track car.

Benson - I understand your point. The best way is without doubt going down that path and I would go that way if I didn't have circumstances playing against me and don't want to pay massive labour costs for the build ie do it myself. I am prepared to accept it'll likely cost more in the future as a result (albeit not a great deal, mainly tuning).

I understand everything said .. Its not only bang for buck, its bang for ease of installation / effect of modification at this stage.

Just spoke to a friend with DC2R - He had 139kW from Toda B setup (Built engine, 12.6:1) very very strong mid range. And after all that, he says '**** going NA just supercharge it' lol. So to end all of this the Head is something I should get in any case. I'll buy the head and bolt it to my motor with either stock cams or mild cams (Toda B or less) for the time being. I'll supercharge it down the track in which case a higher flowing head is benefical anyway..

Thanks for your help

[ewendc2r]

82911 -- Now we're talking.. thats the sort of info I want, tech stuff..
I'm the sort of person that needs to know the underlying essential events / actions / reactions to piece together the total picture. I'm not good with being told here, this is the best way.

[82911]

The ideal is to design the piston dome and chamber roof to match each other for profile.
The welding of quench pads is done to reduce chamber size and add compression, it can also hinder flame propogation if it is not done with consideration of piston dome profile.
When i am designing a chamber shape i will tend to profile shape the piston moreso than the chamber roof (head). This is not because one is better than the other, just that removing the obstructions from the piston dome also reduces the piston mass, so it is win, win.
As for chamber modification, I would bias the design of the chamber to assist flow past the valve seat and across the chamber floor more than look for ways to bump the compression up with mods to the chamber.

Cheers Greg..

[82911]

I'll supercharge it down the track in which case a higher flowing head is benefical anyway..
If your going to boost it, then save your money. just about any reasonable flowing head, and I include with that any stock B series head, is going to flow plenty of air once you put an atmosphere or so of boost behind it.
Porting a head is all about flow path and airspeed, both are superflous once you add boost.

Cheers Greg..

[fatboyz39]

The ideal is to design the piston dome and chamber roof to match each other for profile.
The welding of quench pads is done to reduce chamber size and add compression, it can also hinder flame propogation if it is not done with consideration of piston dome profile.
When i am designing a chamber shape i will tend to profile shape the piston moreso than the chamber roof (head). This is not because one is better than the other, just that removing the obstructions from the piston dome also reduces the piston mass, so it is win, win.
As for chamber modification, I would bias the design of the chamber to assist flow past the valve seat and across the chamber floor more than look for ways to bump the compression up with mods to the chamber.

Cheers Greg..

I know of a B18b that is being built now with CTR's an ITR crank and rods it has the same PR3 ITR 2000model head on it as our current B20Vtec engine with the CNC combustion chambers done and STD ports.It will be running in 4-5 weeks so we will have to wait and see what happens with it .

[tinkerbell]

I will be removing AC at minimum to reduce parasitic drag.

i thought the AC compressor has an electric clutch?

i.e. it is only parasitic when AC is on?

[82911]

I know of a B18b that is being built now with CTR's an ITR crank and rods it has the same PR3 ITR 2000model head on it as our current B20Vtec engine with the CNC combustion chambers done and STD ports.It will be running in 4-5 weeks so we will have to wait and see what happens with it .

Sorry, I don't understand your point?:)

[tinkerbell]

Sorry, I don't understand your point?:)

point is perhaps that the use of CTR pistons is about to be empirically tested...

[tinkerbell]

I will be removing AC at minimum to reduce parasitic drag.

however - you WILL improve lap times by reducing weight!!!

power isnt everything ;)

[82911]

point is perhaps that the use of CTR pistons is about to be empirically tested...
Yes, I understand the intention, but the method is flawed. Tested against what? Is the engine builder going to back to back the CTR's against say a wiseco slug?
I think the biggest thing going against the CTR piston is it's weight. It's heavy. The fact that it's dome is large didn't seem to stop the Honda engineers from extracting amazing power from the B16B.
Just a thought.....

[tinkerbell]

Yes, I understand the intention, but the method is flawed. Tested against what? Is the engine builder going to back to back the CTR's against say a wiseco slug?

hmmm, yes, well, i guess it wont be so empirical then will it... :o

also - the B16B has a very high R/S ratio - 1.8 or higher? maybe the piston weight helped it spin? :confused:

or is all extra reciprocating weight bad?

[Benson]

Stock B20 > B18c with CTR piston

[fatboyz39]

Yes tinks there r/s ratio is 1.84

[Benson]

however - you WILL improve lap times by reducing weight!!!

power isnt everything ;)

Power is everything!!! :p

[82911]

or is all extra reciprocating weight bad?
Mostly, yes. Unless you are chasing a smooth idle or building stationary type engines (gensets etc) But you can't race a genset!!!!


also - the B16B has a very high R/S ratio - 1.8 or higher
You are correct, a high rod stroke ratio does offset some of the problems with flame propogation through the chamber. To be specific. It allows the use of less timing and a later spark initiation because the piston dwells at TDC longer but accellerates away faster.

[tinkerbell]

i see a few 'built' B20V's with >12:1 CR's making high WHP numbers in the US...

does having larger diameter pistons also help flame propagation? or does the long stroke hinder this?

meaning they rely on displacement?

[fatboyz39]

Mostly, yes. Unless you are chasing a smooth idle or building stationary type engines (gensets etc) But you can't race a genset!!!!


You are correct, a high rod stroke ratio does offset some of the problems with flame propogation through the chamber. To be specific. It allows the use of less timing and a later spark initiation because the piston dwells at TDC longer but accellerates away faster.
Thats a little to technical for this site dude :eek: All I meant by the B18B comment was CTR pistons with a reshaped combustion chamber it will be interesting to see what this engine does whn its running.

[82911]

All I meant by the B18B comment was CTR pistons with a reshaped combustion chamber it will be interesting to see what this engine does whn its running.

OK, I understand..;)

But as for being too technical.....
I believe that having good SOLID acurate tech is the only way to refute the internet myths that abound regarding the Honda engines and what does, and does not work.
I appologise if any of it makes your head hurt!!:p
But ask yourself this.......Don't you want to understand "why it is so" rather than just believe the crap that some other internet "wannabe engine builder" has reguritated from some US based site??? If we challenge the "myths" with solid proven theory then we will find the truth.... That is the advantage that engine builders use over those who run what everone else says works...:)


does having larger diameter pistons also help flame propagation? or does the long stroke hinder this?

meaning they rely on displacement?

All other things being equal, the larger bore diameter will always make more power.

[ewendc2r]

Thats a little to technical for this site dude :eek: All I meant by the B18B comment was CTR pistons with a reshaped combustion chamber it will be interesting to see what this engine does whn its running.

The only way I can see this site ever getting technical is with more posts like this. This is the all motor forum anyhow -- The Tech information is what I love about Honda-tech..

TB -- Even with the clutch on the AC I am assuming there will still be parasitic losses driving the belt etc, maybe I am overestimating them...

........................ Pure curiosity. I've seen stroker 2L kits (bigger stroke) & 2L Bore kits (retainign stock 1.8 stroke). Both achieve same capacity through different ratios, I am assuming that because the bored version squares up the R/S ratio that it is a better option? With the 2L stroke kit, I guess that are then boring and sleeving to get 2.2L ?? (only benefit?)

[tinkerbell]

The only way I can see this site ever getting technical is with more posts like this. This is the all motor forum anyhow -- The Tech information is what I love about Honda-tech..

TB -- Even with the clutch on the AC I am assuming there will still be parasitic losses driving the belt etc, maybe I am overestimating them...


the belt free spins when A/C is off, Honda already got that covered mate!



........................ Pure curiosity. I've seen stroker 2L kits (bigger stroke) & 2L Bore kits (retainign stock 1.8 stroke). Both achieve same capacity through different ratios, I am assuming that because the bored version squares up the R/S ratio that it is a better option? With the 2L stroke kit, I guess that are then boring and sleeving to get 2.2L ?? (only benefit?)

pardon?

[ewendc2r]

Sorry -- I've seen a stroker kit retaining the stock b18 bore. I've also seen 2L retainig stock stroke b18 (approx) but with bore work.

I understand now that the main reason is to create a 2.2L engine race application. Was just thinking how much torque that 2L stroker would deliver (as opposed to stock stroke and over-bore). Apparently it massively increases ring wear due to increased stroke & limits RPM (thus why the CRVTEC combination is favoured, even over the 2.2L, even in some race applications including drag).

I've got the flow chart for the head, I'll upload it tonight. Quoted from Joe Alaniz:

In our dyno testing our Competition Head performed better through the entire RPM range as compared to the Street Master. The Competition Head work has a good "clean up" on the intake side for good port velocity while the exhaust has plenty of work so flow dosnt choke up.

The one thing that did make a big diffrence and a good RPM curve was camshaft selection with good Vtec point.

All B18C N/A road race engines I have built make aobut 217-220HP @8200 rpm's dynojet model 248.

I'm really struggling now which way to go.. The head is great value and hate to see it go to waste however as pointed out I'm just not ready for it (well, considering the gain I'd see in any case). If I don't get this, is anyone else interested in a serious head? Esp. you guys with the B20's already?

Geez --- this whole process is pretty stressful! lol decisions decisions.

[Benson]

Why would you make a 2.0l out of the 1.8l block? Why not just start with a b20 from a CRV. Too many myths with weak sleeves with the CRV blocks, and we have proven the strength with the stock sleeves. It just a shame all these guys who crack there sleeves have BAD TUNERS.

[Chr1s]

To be honest,

You're wasting your time making a B18C a 2.0L. Just use the CRV bottom end.

[tinkerbell]

guys chasing big power from B's are using 92mm and 95mm cranks... with 85+ bores...

but with "tall deck blocks" and long rod combos... so mitigating (somewhat) the extra stress of big stroke cranks...

a 85 x 89 block is pretty good compromise, particulary considering the 'high-revving' B18C7 has a stroke that is only 1.8mm shorter...

i note the B20B has a better "piston to bore" ratio than the B18C engine... whislt the B18C has a marginally better rod/stroke ratio of 1.58 vs 1.54...

the "worst" thing about a B20B is the cylinder insert being one-piece, compared to multi-piece...

IMO - this is not a problem at all, provided you are clever and dont try to detonate the engien by bad tuning...

see here for info about the unique B20B sleeves:

http://dwolsten.tripod.com/articles/jan96a.html

(i use this article to explain to people who ask: "why didnt Honda just make a 84mm bore B-series in the first palce? that would have kicked ass?")

[Chr1s]

I would rather 200cc than a very slight lower R/S.

To me, R/S is a big conception from the V8 stroker days that has carried through to the sport compact era.

[ewendc2r]

Thanks TB -- I'll read into that.

Oh and Chr1s that was just out of curiosity. I think we've covered the fact that I was thinking crazy like haha.

NOW!

ITB's. Now in any other circumstance I wouldn't buy OBX full-stop, too many horror stories about cams breaking, LSD's with play in them etc.. I understand the OBX ITB's to be a basic replica of the Toda / Hayward units albeit rougher casting etc. What are your thoughts? With a bit of TLC (disassemble, loctite, reassemble, sand / polish etc) could these really be OK? I can't find any realworld tests lol, although comments have been made as to the 'copy' nature of design (which is a good thing, because Toda / Hayward work well).

Further -- I wonder if because the design is simlar to the Toda if you could fit the Toda SIK Plenum?

[fatboyz39]

Stick to a single manifold.

[ewendc2r]

Stick to a single manifold.

ROFL -- I can't win. Figured this way I could pick up some more mid-range without cracking the block. Given stock cams run out of puff at about 8200-8400rpm I also thought that the normal restriction from ITB's at top end would be a non-issue?

Well -- At least there is another thread that may help someone else in the future lol.

Appreciate all your inputs --- Very much apprecaited.

[Chr1s]

I don't know what your aim for this build is, or what you will be using it for. I havn't taken the time to go back through posts to see what its about either, but going by the "crazy" comment you said earlier I assume you want a mental B series.

Internal combustion motors unfortunately are not as simple as they may seem. You need to have a very sound understanding of fluid/thermodynamics to even get anywhere before looking at the material and form of the components. What i'm saying is, what good is it knowing to run forged internals when you can't get the motor to flow the right way?

I already can see this leading to a kind of "headcase" of a build when I see that you want to use off the shelf parts. I don't like to look through a catalogue and pick parts out.

Since you asked about intakes, I beleive the intake should be designed around the camshaft, if you take some time and look at how the intake operates, beleive it or not, it's more than 4 pipes welded to a bigger tube; you will see that the camshaft has a great effect on the intake. So yes, if you want to get the most out of this motor, toda ITB's are NOT going to cut it, you will need a custom setup.

The way custom manifolds are made to spec is by some fairly complicated mathematics. It's very stringent on sizing, shape, velocities and flow to name a few. Helmholtz resonant frequency is a name you will learn to recognise. Not just in combustion engines, but also in audio speaker boxes for example!

To break it down nice and easy, the intake works on pressure waves, if it's easier for you to understand, picture it in a plumbing sense, since we use water to compare flow of air as a general rule of thumb at atmospheric pressures. The water comes down the runner, valve shuts, hits the back of the valve and a "wave" travels back up the intake runner and then hits the back of the plenum, this wave occurs again and guess what? travels back down the runner. Now this occurs many many many many times a second and at different rpm's as the RPM increase, so its not a linear function that we generalise on, but! We learnt in physics back in school that when two waves of the same phase occur at the same time, they join to create a superposition of the two. This generally increases the amplitude of the wave but keeps the frequency the same, so if you're tuning for x frequency @ x rpm, by tuning the timing when the valve will open with the fresh air charge and resonant frequency inside the current chamber you can create a ram air effect which is another name for "supercharging" the air into the cylinder. This is how intakes are made, now to get the optimum superpositioning of the one frequency charge you need a runner length that is impossible for the rpm range we deal with. We half the length of the runners and inturn we half the strength of the "superpositioning effect", we divide by 3, and we divide the strength by 3 and so forth. This is why the B18C2 has a dual runner setup, one for peak torque at high RPM and one for peak torque at low RPM.

All in all, I would go for a properly designed ITB setup with a plenum which is tapered to maintain velocity in the plenum for the further cylinder and of course, a proper high pressure zone cold air feed.

It's very very complicated, I will try and explain better later tonight, I'm just in a rush typing this so if any errors are in there, you know why ;).

Hope it helps you understand a little better!

[ewendc2r]

Hi and thanks for the explanation. I have a vague understanding of the dynamics of the air flow with respect that, vague enough to give a basic understanding. I realise that I will need to choose my velocity stacks carefully and that the length / diameter of the stack is designed to increase volumetric efficiency (I think thats what you are referring to? Isn't this how they can achieve greater than 100% volumetric efficiency for race engines? I am bit in over my head here .. So I am likely wrong lol .. But anything you want to share is welcome!

I would've though that once you have the ITB's that a stack can then be chosen based on your requirement (i.e. to improve harmonics for mid range or top end)? I understand the runners need to be quite long to tune lower rpm (which makes sense) but I haven't researched exactly how long (and as I don't know the mathematics etc, but I can look into it ...

One of the guys (geeang) @ clubitr seemed to get some very good midrange results on his motor?

[TODA AU]

So yes, if you want to get the most out of this motor, toda ITB's are NOT going to cut it, you will need a custom setup.

Good info but this comment is a bit harsh... LOL

But he was talking about OBX ITB's which are poor copies of the old (now discontinued) TODA 43mm ITB's.
The current TODA ITB's are actually an excellent product & would be more than up to the job covering all areas you have discussed.

Anyway,
What should be mentioned is for maximum output,
The intake ports will be the wrong shape to suit any oval port quad throttle system.
This will cause a power set & he'll be at a power deficit because of it.
This can be sorted with welding or resin, but is more work on an already ported head.


ewendc2r - You need to set yourself an end goal & back engineer the thing.

[tinkerbell]

ewendc2r - You need to set yourself an end goal & back engineer the thing.

yep, that is what is needed.

you can do it in stages, if you like,

but you still need an intermediate goal, then a final goal...

[Chr1s]

Adrian, I didn't know there is a new ITB setup from TODA, got any detailed info/pics?

I personally feel the motor should be built from the bottom end up, you can always swap around different heads and manifolds, but the bottom end is always going to be solid and a PITA to modify when in the car. Let alone expensive.

Question I have...I know some people don't like K series and all that, but if you are going to spend a large amount of money on a highly strung B series to make x amount of torque and power that we don't know the reliability of, why not go K series? They have motor sizing that will meet your torque requirements quite easily in standard application. General statement there.

[Benson]

Back engineer it maybe. But what happens when you dont meet your target or goal with the budget in hand? Will the OP need to throw more cash at it to make it all work? Why try something different when there is heaps of sucessful B-series combo's?


The best advice i can give you is READ and collect the combo's and builds in the Cammed Spec thread and the B-series combination on Honda-tech.com. All the information is there. Choose a build and power you want and replicate it! Easy isnt it?

And yes, geeang engine set-up is a good example of a simple build. He simply slap on A-sport ITB's with good headers and a good tuner to make it all happen. Who care's about peak power, the mid-range produced will be more or even to built b18c's.

[Slaz]

As Adrian said, having the budget and or goal in mind when putting the puzzle of this or any combo together is the way to go in this case but now a days when using stock parts ( when i say stock, im referring to head and block heights as V2V,P2V,P2H and deck height are affected ) as most shelf items can be strapped together and they accomodate most cams available off the shelf aswell, but if you were shooting for a particular comp ratio, piston/chamber design to compliment each other then you are having to work backwards as the head here is the item he wishes to use.

The old Toda ITB's would work for this set-up at 1.8ltr as i made 136KW atw's with my 1.9ltr combo, old 43mm Toda ITB's and that was only spinning to 7000 odd, but i personally believe bigger are better and would be for a 1.8 and the new units accomodate for that,the new Toda ITB's are great units, but require the head to be welding as its been said to take advantage of them as with most itb's done properly, a ported intake would flow the required to hit 140kw and be much cheaper and not require the head to be ported, just the manifold to the head and a suitable T/B matched to it.

Here is the Link to the new Toda ITB's on here Chris.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101636

The K up front and transplant costs start to add up pretty quickly, especially if all the work is outsourced, as Benny and Jimmy have said and showed, some solid parts in a B20 yield good power, but the same parts between a 87.2 and 89 wouldnt be much, as its been said, its the bore that pays dividends which comes cheap with a B20, opposed to sleeving a B18 and going from there, but then some would argue on stock sleeve strength, some have luck, others dont, comes down to personal decison in the end, i think alot of motors come unstuck due to poor maintenance after they leave the builder or owners getting excited at the track or drags and asking to much of an engine that may have been built but not with the suitable parts and respecting its rpm limits, i dont think B's are that strung at those power levels when the parts match the application, its built right and maintained accordingly.

[Chr1s]

Some valid points Slaz

I would not call ~140kw high for a B series, I wouldn't even call 150kw high. It's a good figure to achieve, i'm not saying it's easy, but if I wanted to aim for a big B series, I'd be hunting the 200kw figure, as for that matter, I will be chasing that soon on standard sleeves. If it gives, it gives.

I have the feeling this guy wants to build a B series and be serious about it, in this case it would require some big research and heavy blueprinting work.

To the OP,

There is alot more to buying x pistons and using them in the block, there is certain clearances to be checked as a start and even then, I would modify the pistons to suit my needs. I find that there is a massive misconception about building motors and making power, alot of people think the most expensive parts and the best branded items will make power. The assembly plays a massive part in making power and reliability. Aside the technical aspect of manifold design and head design - probably the most complex and grey area to be talked about.

I see this thread turning into a technical analysis of the B series motor? :)


Benson: Albeit there is some good combo's out there making good power, not everyone is the type to follow others and the OP sounds like he is chasing alot of power/torque from the B series project - seems to me something a little more radical that no-one has really chased yet.

OP, can you please state your goal for this build?

[tinkerbell]

the OP sounds like he is chasing alot of power/torque from the B series project

nah, the OP was trying to take advantage of an offer on a "race head" from the USA...

i think he has since realised the folly of this path... (due to our combined input)

so i *think* he is revising his position...

[ewendc2r]

TB - Pretty much spot on.

Look, originally I had plans of building an NA build but realise the limits are around the 160kw mark and with considerable money spent IF that isn't enough (which I don't think it will be - more below) you have to start over basically .. However as I love the NA response etc I thought there may be a way to get a 'taste' of things to come if I committed to going down that path.

In terms of power levels, and noting that if I went FI it'd only be a roots style or a screw type blower (to retain the NA characteristic of the car as much as possible), I guess on a stock motor at 11psi (reliable except for the belt breaking / slipping) something in the order of 180-200kw@wheels with strong torque across the range. I feel that the chassis could handle this on a track but not much more really.. My theory is that with this sort of straight line potential and the already strong braking / cornering traits which will only be built on, it'd be an interesting time attack car in almost full trim. From there when the car is 'retired' for weekends only etc, I will rebuild the engine, strip car, change blower systems, go a little nuts etc.. Plus I'd get that gorgeous whine everyone time you press the loud pedal lol (

So now I'm re-thinking which path to take to reach my goal -- I do know where I want to finish. I'm trying to figure out the best journey on the way there.

The car just simply (as with a lot of the hondas, especially the nsx) is under-powered.. My goal is to make it a fast type r in anyones books really. I think 200kw would give it the potential to be a weapon and potentially too much, but its easy to change boost pulleys :)

[tinkerbell]

the AUDM B18C7 engine wont take 11psi of S/C boost with out ......
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.



you guessed it!!!!

rebuilding the bottom end!!!

[Chr1s]

I think a well prepped B20vtec will serve you well for what you are after.

[fatboyz39]

I would not call ~140kw high for a B series, I wouldn't even call 150kw high. It's a good figure to achieve, i'm not saying it's easy, but if I wanted to aim for a big B series, I'd be hunting the 200kw figure, as for that matter, I will be chasing that soon on standard sleeves. If it gives, it gives.



You dont mean 200hp? LOL. If you want 200kw build a k and be happy with it.

[ewendc2r]

lol @ TB -- Yes it will, they do, from Jackson Racing with Hondata backing. Its the Hi Boost Kit which is as high as you can go without a rebuild / lower compression / retarding ingition significantly.. Something to do with the Dynamic vs Static Compression? I'll dig up the tech article I found a while back too. It is also encouraged to reduce the rev limiter as there is no longer a need to go that extra 1000rpm, but you can, just extra wear and tear that can be avoided.

I like the fact also that its still a type r, albeit supercharged, it still has its 1.8L origins :)

[ewendc2r]

In fact with rotrex kits they are achieving up to 13psi on stock internals reliably, again something to do with the nature of compression and the properties / tuning -- admittedly, they are dialling in a little too much retard I think, run the risk of something going bang on the exhaust side with the heat! So yeah -- They aren't bulletproof stock bottom end, but they are capable.

[tinkerbell]

make sure you are not confusing information regarding the lower compression B18C5 engine with the higher compression B18C7 engine

just a thought ;)

[ewendc2r]

good pickup -- Yeah I thought about that, but most of the articles that were worth anything were from UK and I thought they had same compression as us?

Apparently the only thing that happens if you run too much boost is that in order for it not to ping, you have to retard the ignition. The exhaust temps will rise signficnatly creating hot spots / burning valves and worse. Their tuning indicated that 11psi was a safe level of boost but had to be specifically tuned with aftermarket ecu. anything over this and detonation becomes an issue, and yes then rebuild the bottom end. But there have been very little reported problems even with some of these guys running 1 bar (stupidly, very inefficient) through type r motors so they must be fairly tough lumps of metal.. I don't think I'll need more than 9 pounds really, that should get me close to my power goals. 11psi is a bit silly for the street I think, wheel spin everywhere.

Idea would be to get it tuned (and this is the great part I love about it) with a 7psi pulley for daily driving and 11psi for the track. Simpy swap pulleys, adjust cam timing as needed and load the map.. wicked. And all while retaining that great NA feel..

I'm happy to be an oz guinea pig and go down this route .. doesn't seem common and I'm not convinced on why.

[tinkerbell]

so maybe you need to speak to whoever it is who you are going to use for tuning up there in QLD?

they might give you some insightful advice...

(no point getting a set-up only people in another country have experience in tuning - just another thought ;) )

[ewendc2r]

Yeah I've thought about that too.. The guy up here has been tuning for around 6 years and although he hadn't tuned a hondata before he quickly got used to it. The workshop also specialises in supercharged applications mostly for domestic v8's so they understand the traits of roots style blowers (thats mostly what is used there). Further Hondata have a basemap for various boost levels requiring fine tuning to each engine obviously. I have confidence in him after speaking with him and watching him tune the engine..

They are a proven application. My only concern is that I understand the intake manifold and supercharger can get hot quite quickly (not a concern on the street, but on the track, definitely) and power drops right off as efficiency of the blower goes out the window.. Because the blower is mounted on intake side and is a direct blow-through, the only cooler option is really an after-cooler (LHT Performance made one a while back) and then there are modifications for water-air and also water injection if you want to really get into it.. But I'm hoping the charger with some sort of cooling system will provide the goals I am looking with good re-sale on the parts with little overall effect to the car if I decide a different route is required.. and the fact that I've seen several around at the moment for very reasonable prices makes it an attractive option.

As I posted in another thread previously, there is a M90 kit for very good price in the US at the moment, just released. Capable of 450whp, with massive usable power all over the rpm. If I rebuilt the bottom end, something like this could be perfect but would need some sort of staged mechanism / boost controller to bleed boost at lower gears .. I kinda want to try something a little different and potentially provide yet another avenue for people to explore with reasoning behind the choice made.. I guess it all depends on the responses I get back from a few offers I've put out there.

[Slaz]

Some valid points Slaz

I would not call ~140kw high for a B series, I wouldn't even call 150kw high. It's a good figure to achieve, i'm not saying it's easy, but if I wanted to aim for a big B series, I'd be hunting the 200kw figure, as for that matter, I will be chasing that soon on standard sleeves. If it gives, it gives.

You talking at the wheels of Flywheel there Chris? Also a B series can be 1.6-2.3 so it really depends on what size motor were talking here and what application, a big 2.3ish motor might make the power and be good for drags, but struggle with the stresses or the track over a period of time, but as it was a discussion in the 1.8-2ltr area, that was the power figures i was putting out there as the better ones.

200KW ATW on a 84 bore, Phils K made 198 being a 2.4, will be a stout effort if it comes together, 95x84 im assuming? When will this be coming together?

[TODA AU]

the AUDM B18C7 engine wont take 11psi of S/C boost with out ......you guessed it!!!!

rebuilding the bottom end!!!

Actually it will...
Max effort on a stock engine is 220~230kw @ the wheels (12psi)
Need the right parts, but it'll do it.

That's turbo not supercharged

[Chr1s]

You talking at the wheels of Flywheel there Chris? Also a B series can be 1.6-2.3 so it really depends on what size motor were talking here and what application, a big 2.3ish motor might make the power and be good for drags, but struggle with the stresses or the track over a period of time, but as it was a discussion in the 1.8-2ltr area, that was the power figures i was putting out there as the better ones.

200KW ATW on a 84 bore, Phils K made 198 being a 2.4, will be a stout effort if it comes together, 95x84 im assuming? When will this be coming together?

Wheels Slaz, I'm hunting around the 2.1 area. I'm still doing some calculations to see where I can realistically make some decent gains. I'd still like to retain the standard stroke. It's going to be one highly strung mofo.

[tinkerbell]

Actually it will...
Max effort on a stock engine is 220~230kw @ the wheels (12psi)
Need the right parts, but it'll do it.

That's turbo not supercharged

i didnt say turbo charged, i specifically said "11psi of S/C boost" :thumbsup:

turbo has more control (thermodynamic) than a S/C... and hence can take more boost - i think the ease of inter-cooling a T/C has something to do with this?

if the OP was not trying to be different and unique, then the most obvious option is a turbocharger, isn't it?

[tinkerbell]

Wheels Slaz, I'm hunting around the 2.1 area. I'm still doing some calculations to see where I can realistically make some decent gains. I'd still like to retain the standard stroke. It's going to be one highly strung mofo.

std stroke with 2.1l? that is a 86.5mm bore... how you going to get that on a std sleeves?

[Chr1s]

86mm on standard sleeves. Pushing it, I know.

[Slaz]

Wheels Slaz, I'm hunting around the 2.1 area. I'm still doing some calculations to see where I can realistically make some decent gains. I'd still like to retain the standard stroke. It's going to be one highly strung mofo. 86mm on standard sleeves. Pushing it, I know.

EEEKKK, good luck, hope the sleeves and headgasket hold together for you, look forward to hearing how it goes. :thumbsup:

[fatboyz39]

86mm? nice say goodbye to the sleeves.

[ewendc2r]

Can I ask this -- IF the sleeves crack etc, are the internal generally salvageable? i.e. If you can pick up B20 blocks on the cheap, why not give it a crack!?

[tinkerbell]

Can I ask this -- IF the sleeves crack etc, are the internal generally salvageable? i.e. If you can pick up B20 blocks on the cheap, why not give it a crack!?

sleeves dont crack when the stuff inside of them is stationary.

but luck would play a part in how much damage would be caused.

Chris - what sort of block girdle/bracing will you be employing, if any?

[Chr1s]

Can I ask this -- IF the sleeves crack etc, are the internal generally salvageable? i.e. If you can pick up B20 blocks on the cheap, why not give it a crack!?

As tinkerbell said - you won't wake up one morning to find coolant/oil on the floor because the block decided to crack. If the sleeves crack, depending how they crack it can be a case from a hairline crack causing that cylinder to fail, could take out the piston with it or to the extreme of the whole block splitting in two. This happened alot in the 80s when half weighted cranks were buzzed too hard and the harmonics caused the block to split, not from weak sleeves.

TB - A combination of resin filling, guard not too far down from the deck and block posting mid way between the two. This will only provide the sleeves to be rigid from not "wandering" at high rpm/load. The sleeve being able to handle that sort of power with a 2mm thinner sleeve is another story as we both know.

Girdle on the bottom end is a must, pretty scary seeing no girdle down there!!! :wave:

[tinkerbell]

TB - A combination of resin filling, guard not too far down from the deck and block posting mid way between the two. This will only provide the sleeves to be rigid from not "wandering" at high rpm/load.

lol - like holding a crystal champagne flute with a pair of vice-grips? whislt running up stairs?

nah, sounds good - tuning is key, but you know that...

[Benson]

Haha no gridle here and it revs to 9400-9600 at times

Chris, dont bother with the B if your going 86mm, better off starting with a K block

[Chr1s]

lol - like holding a crystal champagne flute with a pair of vice-grips? whislt running up stairs?


Havn't had the chance to do that one yet :p

Benny - Throw more power into your motor Benny, then tell me you don't need to re-inforce the bottom end, it will only be a matter of time until you twist something.

[DR HONDA]

I love oz honda.

[Benson]

It has more than enough power. If it was going to twist, it would of done so on the track. Remember its not a street motor, it gets to see more 9000rpm than any ordinary motor

Seems like your going to too much trouble to do what you want chris

[Chr1s]

It has more than enough power. If it was going to twist, it would of done so on the track. Remember its not a street motor, it gets to see more 9000rpm than any ordinary motor

Seems like your going to too much trouble to do what you want chris


I'm not going to bother.

[fatboyz39]

I'm not going to bother.
Why because we have an engine that makes good power turns to over 9000rpm and has none of the internet BULLSHIT put into it.The lesson with B20Vtec engines is build them right, tune them right,and dont listen to e-mechanics with no idea only very smart with words and posting crap they read somewhere or dreamed up.

[ewendc2r]

Why because we have an engine that makes good power turns to over 9000rpm and has none of the internet BULLSHIT put into it.The lesson with B20Vtec engines is build them right, tune them right,and dont listen to e-mechanics with no idea only very smart with words and posting crap they read somewhere or dreamed up.

Sounds like the same way people have built strong engines for the last .. little while anyway.

I still think that if you are willing to dig deep enough there are enough tech articles to make your own mind up for most things i.e SAE papers etc .. But engines remains one of the areas that seems to have so much misinformation. Still, without the bullshit you wouldn't have the full picture. I think its as important to know why not to do something (or how someone's setup didn't work) as it is to find out someone's ultimate setup.


I'd be interested in the build in anycase, to get another result / post that might be useful to someone else.. If anyone wants a great head for a b20 let me know and i'll shoot you some details .. Its early but its late, good night.

[fatboyz39]

For what its worth there really is only 2-3 people that have the experience and knowledge to build a REAL 150+KW B series engine there are many on this forum that just read to much build one engine and they think they are a legend engine builder.Just dont let these people lead you the wrong way with there advice, stories and dreams it will waste alot of your money.

[Phamburger]

For what its worth there really is only 2-3 people that have the experience and knowledge to build a REAL 150+KW B series engine there are many on this forum that just read to much build one engine and they think they are a legend engine builder.Just dont let these people lead you the wrong way with there advice, stories and dreams it will waste alot of your money.

From personal experience, that is so true. Great advice there :thumbsup:

[Slaz]

For what its worth there really is only 2-3 people that have the experience and knowledge to build a REAL 150+KW B series engine there are many on this forum that just read to much build one engine and they think they are a legend engine builder.Just dont let these people lead you the wrong way with there advice, stories and dreams it will waste alot of your money.


Who would they be Jimmy so we know who to listen to? :rolleyes:

[jdm18c]

For what its worth there really is only 2-3 people that have the experience and knowledge to build a REAL 150+KW B series engine there are many on this forum that just read to much build one engine and they think they are a legend engine builder.Just dont let these people lead you the wrong way with there advice, stories and dreams it will waste alot of your money.

yea you can only use google for so many things until the shit talking runs out.

[fatboyz39]

Who would they be Jimmy so we know who to listen to? :rolleyes:
You know 1 of them very well,one does not want to be known and the other is a mate of the one that does not want to be known who talks to the one you know very well :p.

[Slaz]

Oh, so Adrian, Dyno Dave and Phil in your eyes im assuming?

Im just clearing it up for everyone else involved as the b20 is becoming more popular and is a regular topic on here?

[fatboyz39]

2/3 correct.

[Slaz]

So im assuming he doesnt frequent the forums as Phil and Adrian do so thats who you suggest people turn to for reliable information regarding b20 builds?

Seeing your motor is making 150+ and Dave builds your engines but not on any Oz forums and retired from the scene as you have said, i thought he was the other you spoke of, my apoligies. :thumbsup:

[fatboyz39]

Oh, so Adrian, Dyno Dave and Phil in your eyes im assuming?

Im just clearing it up for everyone else involved as the b20 is becoming more popular and is a regular topic on here?

You make a very good point there about clearing it up but the problem is the info will only make the e-mechanics worse with the correct knowledge on how to build a good B20.Now reading your list I was not really thinking about Phil as he really just likes and mainly builds K engines and the old bastard has a good mate that does alot of engines for IPRA cars and he has built some very good Honda engines.

[Slaz]

You make a very good point there about clearing it up but the problem is the info will only make the e-mechanics worse with the correct knowledge on how to build a good B20.Now reading your list I was not really thinking about Phil as he really just likes and mainly builds K engines and the old bastard has a good mate that does alot of engines for IPRA cars and he has built some very good Honda engines.

I know who you speak as the missing other. ;)

But being a public forum, there is always going to be e mechanics and there isnt much anyone can do about that, im just trying to make it aware that people do their research and see what works and what doesnt before they go forking out cash on parts that may not suit their goal or application.

[fatboyz39]

Slaz I really think Tinkerbell is the right guy to do a writeup he was the first to do a B20 in Aus and his engines have proved that you can build a simple engine that will serve you for many years.

[jdm18c]

Slaz I really think Tinkerbell is the right guy to do a writeup he was the first to do a B20 in Aus and his engines have proved that you can build a simple engine that will serve you for many years.

wheres your mechanics licience?

[delsol9000rpms]

he doesnt have one but he's got an e-mechanics license lol.

[Chr1s]

I'll be honest with you guys, you don't need to be a mechanic to know what you're doing when it comes to this side of work. It helps depending on who you are though.

[jdm18c]

I'll be honest with you guys, you don't need to be a mechanic to know what you're doing when it comes to this side of work. It helps depending on who you are though.

yea thats true to a degree, google dosent have all the info you need to build a motor thats why they have course you can do at tafe and shit.

[Slaz]

Slaz I really think Tinkerbell is the right guy to do a writeup he was the first to do a B20 in Aus and his engines have proved that you can build a simple engine that will serve you for many years.

I'll be honest with you guys, you don't need to be a mechanic to know what you're doing when it comes to this side of work. It helps depending on who you are though.

Dave would be a good guy to do a write up on B20's if he could be bothered, maybe the forum or all motor section should have people or moderators involved that could contribute such sticky's that is reliable information for newb's to follow.

As Chris points out also, it isnt rocket science, but beyond alot of people wihtout putting the time into a coarse or trade, but some of the finer points of engine building, cam tuning, degreeing, head porting, part selection are, ive only a met few that have a complete and sound understanding of this and most get by with trial and error, more often then not at other people's expense.

Research, research, research. :thumbsup:

[delsol9000rpms]

there is a big difference between some people who research things on google and tell other people on forums what to do just from other peoples experiences then if someone else that is in the mechanical trade and learn about the stuff everyday. there are alot of people on this forum that say do things this way and select this part but they actually dont know the reason for the way they did it or the part they selected and thats what seperates the E-MECHANICS to the actual real mechanics. alot of people just state the obvious that any other tom dick or harry would know.

[Chr1s]

there is a big difference between some people who research things on google and tell other people on forums what to do just from other peoples experiences then if someone else that is in the mechanical trade and learn about the stuff everyday. there are alot of people on this forum that say do things this way and select this part but they actually dont know the reason for the way they did it or the part they selected and thats what seperates the E-MECHANICS to the actual real mechanics. alot of people just state the obvious that any other tom dick or harry would know.

How do you know who is an e-mechanic and who isn't?

If a random person signed up on this board and posted some very good information about B series engines, would you laugh at him and call him an e-mechanic because you don't know any different if his not from a workshop called so and so?

Some of the BEST engine builders in Australia (motorsport industry) are not mechanics.

edit: enough talking about whos a better engine builder or not, get back on topic with some great B series discussion.

[GSi_PSi]

i dunoo theres some ppl on here that get off on putting other pplz builds down. lol.
i guess i knoe why other forums talk bout ozhonda.........