tail happy S?

[F20C]

So i never thought it was much to be concerned about but my s2000 has gotten so much more tail happy since i've put it back on stock suspension. Before it stuck to the ground and didnt feel like it was going to slip out from underneath me.

Now, when i turn my steering wheel more then i'd say about a 1/4 of a full turn it just wants to slip and slide. This usually happens in the wet but sometimes happens in the dry.. And no im not taking corners at stupid speeds. It could be this stupid tyres i got off a friend (their brand new) but it used to do the same thing on my S1's as well.. i guess what im trying to ask is what can i do about this? Other then the fact of buying new and better tyres lol.

[rokkuchan]

u can drive slower saves your life, saves you petrol and saves you money until you have enough money to buy new tyres. :)

[F20C]

lol rokku im not driving fast.. =( and i just got new tyres lol.. gotta admit their pretty crappy in the wet but still! it never used to do this lol..

[mr_vtec]

That happens to me but I know that I'm going into the corner abit to fast for the rain lol so then The car power slides lol also cause the tires are not the best fo the rain
lol

[rokkuchan]

I have RE001, quite new, also power slided in the wet but i was going quick on a wide bend. Re001 crap on wet but need 60-70kph+ to slide them out in wet. On dry, hard to slide even if u try clutching+high revs...

[F20C]

what about strut braces? and sway bars? I've heard whiteline kits could stop the tail happyness of cars? could solve the problem with are silly power sliding issues? :P

[vyets]

Got a whiteline one for sale atm :) Can't promise it will help but lol.

[render.]

A front roll bar or some some newer/fatter rear tires should technically reduce oversteer

[rokkuchan]

i think these braces are useless as a daily car... the car was built from scratch as a race car, not like one of those cars where ahem*cough**silvia** with bolt on turbo and bolt on braces here and there to make the car stiff and stick to the road...

it's just bling for the engine bay. The chassis is already stiff,it wont roll even if u tried.




what about strut braces? and sway bars? I've heard whiteline kits could stop the tail happyness of cars? could solve the problem with are silly power sliding issues? :P

[F20C]

lol hrrm fatter tyres here i come :P

[JAP-S2K]

Yeah wider tyres in the wet will only make things worse. Best investment is a good set of tyres. Your problem is your tyres.

[F20C]

i had re001's and they werent the greatest i also had s1 evo's which were slightly better.. what would be reccomended as a good set in winter weather? i've got a great summer set so yer..

[rokkuchan]

i had re001's and they werent the greatest i also had s1 evo's which were slightly better.. what would be reccomended as a good set in winter weather? i've got a great summer set so yer..

are you sure speed wasn't the factor of causing your fish tail whacks?

RE001 is not the best in the wet but you need to be doing some speed to slide it out with those tyres.

I had crappy Hankooks which were discontinued, bad in both wet and dry but still need some speed before it loses grip...

But after changing to RE001 on all 4, it feels really nice and smooth.

[Dart]

stock suspention is a death trap in the s2 ....zero feel for when the tail is about to let go...first get a real wheel alignment no $50 quicky.... uk spec wheel alignment is not bad for street,, 6 degree total toe on rear helps as well as camber..the strut baces do help give some more feel ( people that say strut braces don't work prob still have training wheels on there bike) front braces.. top and under engine cusco,,rear ,,under cusco brace in boot is fine,,used king springs on standard shocks ( pretty good shocks as they have extenal reservior and lasted 130 k) had for quite a while they helped ,,,now have tein mono flex,, they feel the best,,, so much easier to control the car

In summery good tyres, wheel alignment, braces,coilovers is whats needed

ps.. tyre pressure is a big factor as well,,,, any one who tracks a car will understand
I run rear tyres 2 psi lower as they get too hot on the freeway

[9large]

F20C, something doesn't seem to quite add up with your descriptions, but I'm with JAP-S2K - I'd say your problem is with your tyres. Either that or you are going harder than you are leading us to believe. A good thicker front sway bar can help settle the rear a little, but not for the sensitivities that you have been describing. Note, strut braces do jack all for our car.

[F20C]

well it doesnt seem like im going fast :s no ones complained about entering corners to quickly.. i dont know how else to explain it any other way then i have.. i have left out that when i turn the wheel, it gets awfully smooth like you can actually tell the car is going to slip from underneath you. ..

[9large]

What tyre pressures are you running front and rear?

[JAP-S2K]

( people that say strut braces don't work prob still have training wheels on there bike) front braces.. top and under engine cusco,,rear ,,under cusco brace in boot is fine,

I'd be one of those that will say "braces" on an S2K do very little if anything, yet i have them, i've had them on and off and can't feel the difference. :zip:

[ludecrs]

Got a whiteline one for sale atm :) Can't promise it will help but lol.

X Brace or Sway bar?

[vyets]

Sway bar but the rear one ROFL :P

Braces help more with chassis flex then actual cornering speed, but on the s2000 they do nothing. Apparently the 4point front strut is the only front strut where you can feel a different (feedback form s2ki owners) however I still can't feel anything and I have one :P. There's never ending arguments about strut braces and if they do or dont make a difference, personally I wouldn't bother thats why I bought my strut for blingage lol.
The only types of "chassis bars" I would reccomend you getting that will do something. Whiteline/spoon lower "x or H" bar. Any thicker front sway bar, and the cusco 4point chassis brace.
I'd agree with most people here saying that it's the tyres, even with the most badass suspension setup it's not going to effect your tail happiness at low speeds unless your going alot faster then what your saying.
Stock suspension would pwn most coilovers :P

[9large]

Couldn't have said it better myself vyets :thumbsup:

[mikoZ]

Sway bar but the rear one ROFL :P

Braces help more with chassis flex then actual cornering speed, but on the s2000 they do nothing. Apparently the 4point front strut is the only front strut where you can feel a different (feedback form s2ki owners) however I still can't feel anything and I have one :P. There's never ending arguments about strut braces and if they do or dont make a difference, personally I wouldn't bother thats why I bought my strut for blingage lol.
The only types of "chassis bars" I would reccomend you getting that will do something. Whiteline/spoon lower "x or H" bar. Any thicker front sway bar, and the cusco 4point chassis brace.
I'd agree with most people here saying that it's the tyres, even with the most badass suspension setup it's not going to effect your tail happiness at low speeds unless your going alot faster then what your saying.
Stock suspension would pwn most coilovers :P

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[aozora]

i think these braces are useless as a daily car... the car was built from scratch as a race car, not like one of those cars where ahem*cough**silvia** with bolt on turbo and bolt on braces here and there to make the car stiff and stick to the road...

it's just bling for the engine bay. The chassis is already stiff,it wont roll even if u tried.

Keep telling yourself it's a race car :) It was built as a SPORTS car - a real race car would not be daily drivable nor would have a drop top if it were truly purposefully built :p
Why the hate for Silvias? I sense bitterness from a past defeat :)
(Bolt on turbo for a car/engine that was designed to have a turbo from factory? Explain?)

Anyway the S2000 is a very good handling car from factory... but is somewhat unforgiving to people who don't have much experience with oversteer.
After coming from a Silvia, I heard the S2000 was very unforgiving in this area... but even with crappy Falken Ziex 326s... it's great? Even stock?
A common solution for this problem on S2ki is... driver. You make the car handle with steering and throttle, if you want the car to oversteer, turn in hard and mash the throttle. Want it to understeer, go in too fast and lock up the brakes/turn suddenly enough to overload the front tyres...

After some research and experience here's what I've found...

Front STB (Strut Tower Brace) - Useless. I'm getting one for engine bay bling haha. Notice the big beam under your intake? That is what helps you but... what makes this even more useless is the fact that you have double wishbone suspension and good chassis design :)
Unlike MacPherson suspension - where strut braces on Evos and Silvias can help with "feel" because there is no huge beam behind the radiator support and that the shock/spring has to handle most dynamic suspension movements... Double wishbone seperates the dynamic suspension geometry changes into 2 groups.
- Simple up and down movement.
- Camber, toe and castor changes.
Because your A-arms and LCAs handle the camber, toe etc... the up and down movement is handled entirely by the shock/spring and absorbed into the strut tower. Now, because this setup only has to worry about going up and down... the strut tower has less stress on it... which basically translates to less chassis flex. So unless the welds on the strut tower plate are gone... then basically I wouldn't worry... you'd have bigger issues on your hand at this point :p

Rear STB - Useless. Most AP1s and all AP2s have this stock and can't properly utilize the use of one anyway (I don't know how you would design and install something into those rear strut towers?!).

Chassis and subframe braces - Won't directly make your car faster but will help with the feel of the car generally... but it all depends on the chassis etc etc.
For example...
- I installed a front Cusco subframe brace and the steering felt more responsive.
- Installed a rear and didn't feel squat (there's a stock one but doesn't look as pretty or thick :p) yet some will claim that they can take corners 20km/hr more with the rear subframe brace. That's just placebo and confidence. If you can feel something better, your reaction will be better and confidence overall will improve... right? ;)

Swaybars - Simple suspension basics. Thicker front swaybar means more understeer as it will load up the outer tyre more which will eventually lose traction... and the same for the rear. Thicker rear swaybar means more oversteer. As alot of people complain of the S2000 being very tail happy... they install a front swaybar to negate this effect so that when the weight is transfered to the outer tyre on both front and rear, the front swaybar reacts more "strongly" to understeer "earlier" (not sure how else to explain this) so that the rear doesn't get a chance to induce oversteer... but that's only if you're driving properly. Driving like an idiot makes most mods useless anyway.

Coil-overs - There are too many factors in this to explain fully but I'll stick to basics and assume that valving is great. And a very bad explanation but... spring rates in this context would be similar to swaybars. Have stiff front springs and soft rear springs and you will understeer at the limit. Stiff rear springs and soft front springs and you will oversteer at the limit... I'll leave the rest to your imagination :p

Tyres and alignment - Very obvious like everybody else has mentioned. Make sure both are good.

...wow. I hope that helps?! I could be wrong but that's my understanding of it all so far... I've yet to play around with alignment... ;)

[vyets]

That's one long ass reply ben but pretty much perfect :) Looks like you been researching heaps eh.

Placebo effect is the same with the coilovers, it feels siffer and feels firm, you think your car can handle more and you take corners harder. But stock suspension will own most low and mid range coilovers.

[render.]

In terms of alignment, to combat oversteer you would be increasing the grip levels in the rear tyres so increasing negative camber and even dialing in some toe-in would help.

[jko2]

owners manual says 6mm toe in in the rear, and -1.5 deg camber.
makes a big difference.
if you haven't done that yet, start there.

[rokkuchan]

hypothetically speaking, i dont mean a real race-car but yes i meant to say sports, just didn't think of that term as i was writing... there's no hate for Silvia as I owned one.

Yes strut brace are bling...and the beam under the filter box? that's exactly what i meant; it's built from scratch, from the engineering perspective that it's meant to be a stiff chassis.

I'm not gonna pretend i know what i'm talking about, so i won't. Just that all i know is, S2k, right from the moment of invention it was meant as a 'sports car'... as for Evo or Silvia or watever, perhaps u can correct me if im wrong, weren't they initially produce as a family cars;mid-range sedan cars (perhaps not silvia in this). But what i'm trying to say is, S2k out of the factory is, does not require you to get strut braces, bigger turbos, bigger intercooler, better suspension, to be better in the corners and or faster.

i'm talking in the sense of a 'daily driver' here, no need to go into too much detail of the stuff below to show off la.






Keep telling yourself it's a race car :) It was built as a SPORTS car - a real race car would not be daily drivable nor would have a drop top if it were truly purposefully built :p
Why the hate for Silvias? I sense bitterness from a past defeat :)
(Bolt on turbo for a car/engine that was designed to have a turbo from factory? Explain?)

Anyway the S2000 is a very good handling car from factory... but is somewhat unforgiving to people who don't have much experience with oversteer.
After coming from a Silvia, I heard the S2000 was very unforgiving in this area... but even with crappy Falken Ziex 326s... it's great? Even stock?
A common solution for this problem on S2ki is... driver. You make the car handle with steering and throttle, if you want the car to oversteer, turn in hard and mash the throttle. Want it to understeer, go in too fast and lock up the brakes/turn suddenly enough to overload the front tyres...

After some research and experience here's what I've found...

Front STB (Strut Tower Brace) - Useless. I'm getting one for engine bay bling haha. Notice the big beam under your intake? That is what helps you but... what makes this even more useless is the fact that you have double wishbone suspension and good chassis design :)
Unlike MacPherson suspension - where strut braces on Evos and Silvias can help with "feel" because there is no huge beam behind the radiator support and that the shock/spring has to handle most dynamic suspension movements... Double wishbone seperates the dynamic suspension geometry changes into 2 groups.
- Simple up and down movement.
- Camber, toe and castor changes.
Because your A-arms and LCAs handle the camber, toe etc... the up and down movement is handled entirely by the shock/spring and absorbed into the strut tower. Now, because this setup only has to worry about going up and down... the strut tower has less stress on it... which basically translates to less chassis flex. So unless the welds on the strut tower plate are gone... then basically I wouldn't worry... you'd have bigger issues on your hand at this point :p

Rear STB - Useless. Most AP1s and all AP2s have this stock and can't properly utilize the use of one anyway (I don't know how you would design and install something into those rear strut towers?!).

Chassis and subframe braces - Won't directly make your car faster but will help with the feel of the car generally... but it all depends on the chassis etc etc.
For example...
- I installed a front Cusco subframe brace and the steering felt more responsive.
- Installed a rear and didn't feel squat (there's a stock one but doesn't look as pretty or thick :p) yet some will claim that they can take corners 20km/hr more with the rear subframe brace. That's just placebo and confidence. If you can feel something better, your reaction will be better and confidence overall will improve... right? ;)

Swaybars - Simple suspension basics. Thicker front swaybar means more understeer as it will load up the outer tyre more which will eventually lose traction... and the same for the rear. Thicker rear swaybar means more oversteer. As alot of people complain of the S2000 being very tail happy... they install a front swaybar to negate this effect so that when the weight is transfered to the outer tyre on both front and rear, the front swaybar reacts more "strongly" to understeer "earlier" (not sure how else to explain this) so that the rear doesn't get a chance to induce oversteer... but that's only if you're driving properly. Driving like an idiot makes most mods useless anyway.

Coil-overs - There are too many factors in this to explain fully but I'll stick to basics and assume that valving is great. And a very bad explanation but... spring rates in this context would be similar to swaybars. Have stiff front springs and soft rear springs and you will understeer at the limit. Stiff rear springs and soft front springs and you will oversteer at the limit... I'll leave the rest to your imagination :p

Tyres and alignment - Very obvious like everybody else has mentioned. Make sure both are good.

...wow. I hope that helps?! I could be wrong but that's my understanding of it all so far... I've yet to play around with alignment... ;)

[aozora]

hypothetically speaking, i dont mean a real race-car but yes i meant to say sports, just didn't think of that term as i was writing... there's no hate for Silvia as I owned one.

Yes strut brace are bling...and the beam under the filter box? that's exactly what i meant; it's built from scratch, from the engineering perspective that it's meant to be a stiff chassis.

I'm not gonna pretend i know what i'm talking about, so i won't. Just that all i know is, S2k, right from the moment of invention it was meant as a 'sports car'... as for Evo or Silvia or watever, perhaps u can correct me if im wrong, weren't they initially produce as a family cars;mid-range sedan cars (perhaps not silvia in this). But what i'm trying to say is, S2k out of the factory is, does not require you to get strut braces, bigger turbos, bigger intercooler, better suspension, to be better in the corners and or faster.

i'm talking in the sense of a 'daily driver' here, no need to go into too much detail of the stuff below to show off la.

Most later Evos are faster then S2000s from factory... so I don't think they're exactly doing anything wrong? A Silvia with the same amount spent on it (spent well that is), will perform simiarly too.

Haha I know what you're getting at though. It is a good chassis design basically :)

Oh and all of that before wasn't for you ;)

[JAP-S2K]

One important factor you need to understand is any alignment setting done once you have modified any suspension setting is. The factory settings become useless/incorrect if you've changed any of the following: Ride height (including coilovers), swaybars, tyre widths and rim offsets. There are many variables that change, and not one setting is technically correct/incorrect, however less rear toe is required, but slightly more total camber f&r is favourable when tyre/rim sizes have been increased. It does come down to personal preference really.

[WhitelineJim]

G’day everyone,

Hope you don’t mind us piping in but we were told about this thread and suggested that we might help with the tech.

Great discussion and its fantastic to see so much knowledge. Aozora, you’ve obviously had a bit to do with suspension setup and the role of the tyres is very important here as you point out. A front swaybar upgrade will have the effect of increasing front grip to shift the balance away from oversteer in most situations and that’s without using “sacrificial tuning.”

This is a term we use to describe any strategy that tries to reduce grip at one point to change the balance rather than increasing grip at the other, hence the sacrifice of grip to tune the balance. We suggest that its always better and mostly possible to increase grip and we know that standard tyres have lost of reserves from the factory.

Alignment settings are something that needs to be looked at relative to the setup and use and its still the best value for money handling improvement for many cars. With every new development vehicle, the first job is to do a wheel alignment in house and it’s always less than ideal as the OE tolerances are quite broad. Plenty of benefits to be had there.

As for chassis bracing and “bling”, that’s a tricky topic but needless to say I don’t agree as our view is that there’s no such thing as too much chassis stiffness. Assuming the design actually does brace or increase stiffness of the related parts, and the weight increase is not prohibitive, its a worthwhile modification that the average driver will feel.

Hope that helps, let us know if we can answer any further questions.

Cheers
Whiteline Jim
www.whiteline.com.au

[9large]

Thanks for the comments WhitelineJim.

I don't think anyone's complaining about too much stiffness, but for the money, an average strut-tower type brace has negligible affect on the S2000, from my experience at least. For similar money, a lower X- or H-style chassis brace does significantly more. I have both STB and lower-arm brace (from Whiteline), as well as a front sway bar (also from Whiteline). Unfortunately, the STB did nothing for me.

[ludecrs]

<snip>

Welcome :thumbsup:

[WhiteAP1]

Thanks for the comments WhitelineJim.

I don't think anyone's complaining about too much stiffness, but for the money, an average strut-tower type brace has negligible affect on the S2000, from my experience at least. For similar money, a lower X- or H-style chassis brace does significantly more. I have both STB and lower-arm brace (from Whiteline), as well as a front sway bar (also from Whiteline). Unfortunately, the STB did nothing for me.

What he said :thumbsup:

[troys2000]

Wow Whitelinejim that was intense lol.
I plan to spend more money on driver training than improving the car, because lets face it our talent runs out more than the S2000’s (for the most of us)
We should spend a little more time & money improving us not the car.

[F20C]

well if you do improve yourself and you still drove the same car with the same entrance speed into a corner with shitty tyres, wouldnt it still occur? realistically improving tyres and not entering corners so fast would stop the tail happy-ness. And by some of the things mentioned above, improving certain things on your car would mean being able to enter those corners without slidding? I'm not saying im entering corners at stupid speed causing me to go sideways i just think its the tyres. Possibly the way my car was camberd and toed maybe?

[WhitelineJim]

G’day everyone,

Thanks for the positive and supportive welcome, we love getting involved.

9large, WhiteAP1, I take your point and a strut tower brace is actually a misnomer on that car as it doesn’t have struts. The top mount application links the upper arm inner pickup points which is a good thing but I would argue that the lower brace in that application is the more important one. And, having driven an S2000 with a without, back to back during development I am confident that it’s doing its thing in maintaining a tighter integration between static and dynamic angles.

Troys2000, great point and one that resonates with us however we have to be careful what we say sometimes as owner drivers can be a bit touchy. We used to joke with our pro test drivers that the best value for money performance improvement for a customer car on test day was to pay the pro drivers to drive them as they’d potentially slash seconds off the lap time. ;)

But F20Cs’ comments fit in well here too as the combination of poor tyres and poor technique will quickly overpower any actual setup gains. The S2000 is one of those rare beasts that’s actually close to neutral from the factory which is contrary to the normal “always understeer” mantra coming from the engineering safety department. That gives the car the feeling of being “oversteery” but we think it’s just too close to neutral for some and that makes it more challenging to drive for some, myself included.:o

Anyway, hope we’ve helped.

Cheers
Whiteline Jim
www.whiteline.com.au

[Kcender87]

The problem is with the control arms - as the the individual wheels in the rear go through suspension travel - either fast from a bump or slow as they are loaded through a corner - the control arm placement drastically changed the toe of the respective wheel.

This results in a "rear wheel steer" situation when loaded slowly through corners. That is, as the left is loaded for example (turning right), it develops toe out and the unloaded right wheel develops relative toe in. As a result the collective direction of the rear wheels is opposite to that of the direction of the turn, therefore encouraging the back to come round.

To eliminate this effect, you need to eliminate the control arm's effect on the toe through suspension travel.

One way is to limit movement all together and lower the suspension so the control arms are horizontal to the road surface (which is why the problem was less prominent with harder, lower suspension).

Secondly, you may install a rose-joint style attachment to counter the stock control arms natural effect on the wheel alignment through travel. http://www.eskimo.com/~mikeg/S2000/bumpsteer/

This was the reason behind the initial complaints of snappy over steer in the S2k. I have 95% eliminated the problem with HSD HR coilovers on my AP1. Its like an involuntary HICAS system for hondas :P

hope this helps :)

[feifeiyuen]

I will try to share my experience with driving my s2k with stock set up.
To be simple, Avoid excessive weight transfer and body Roll of the Back ...
Avoid using stick tyre, eg anything more than re001
Avoid heavy braking follwoing with trail braking and taking a very sharp line.

This will minimize the " Rear wheel steer " stated from Kcender.
Take a smooth line with gradual intake should save your car from being tail happy in mid corner.

[F20C]

See i understand what your all saying. But when my car was lowered on the same tyres i never slid out. Now its on stock height again i can feel the rear end wanting to slide. I think ill get someone to test it out and see what im saying exactly. Again i state im not taking the corners at some stupid speed where its expected otherwise i wouldnt be trying to explain whats happening cause i'd know its my mistake doing that lol.

[vyets]

Did you lower it by "resetting your springs" and raise it by re-resetting your springs?

[F20C]

chopped and compressed springs, then i bought a stock standard set.

[vyets]

And the stock set handles worse then the chopped springs? thats a surprise Have you checked your aligment?
Are you useing the same shocks or new ones?
If your useing the same ones most likely they would be blown since you compressed the springs
If they are a 2nd hand set you bought to replace it.. well they might just be blown too hehe :P

[F20C]

Alignment is fine. Their cambered and toed differently now though.. Dont know to what exactly but when it was lowered on my rims the rears were cambered and toed alot more then they are now. Its more of a stock setup i guess. and the shocks are the same as when i had it lowered..

[vyets]

What's the aligment setting?
Of corse when you lower your car your going to get more camber lol

[F20C]

i think its all 0 or could possibly 1 / 2.. if thats what your asking anyway..

[vyets]

ur full aligment setting dude not just ur camber its quite hard to guess what camber u got from just looking

[F20C]

well then i've got no idea i just took it in and told them i want it as stock as it can possibly go fix everything and now im riding a stock as s2k. lol. vyets! you keep missing the N lol.

[vyets]

Shiet I cant spell :( leave me alone im at work LOL
I could be your aligment :P hahahah alignment
because some places when you ask for an alignment they will just make up one. they don't actually search up the stock alignment settings because they are lazy
which is probably why

[F20C]

Possibly correct i dunno he said he checked it up on the net when i spoke to him the day i picked it up and i thought screw it aslong as it drives im happy lol. But im due for another soon enough so ill just take it in and get something thats reccomended i guess. But ill be sure to post up what the new ones are and if its helped me little dilema.

[vyets]

That's why you should always ask for a printout. Alot of places just align the toe to make it straight and it drives straight people dont complain lol

[F20C]

nah the toe is definatly not straight but its not toed to a stupid amount. Its not straight down.. well not that i can see anyway lol.

[render.]

nah the toe is definatly not straight but its not toed to a stupid amount. Its not straight down.. well not that i can see anyway lol.

i think your getting mixed up with camber. looking from the top of the car and if you see the tyres/wheels at an angle then you are talking about camber.

Toe is which way the tyres are pointing in terms of the direction they are rolling.

[vyets]

and both are almost impossible to tell by eye lol

[9large]

Unless you are a T1000 or higher.

[9large]

Mind you, there was a time I could tell I had a major change in toe. I'd spun on a big right-hander across a ripple-strip (cold tyres), came back to the pits and my right wheel was noticeable off. Not mention the handling was off as well for the rest of the day. Went to the shop to get it realigned and the front right was over 14mm toe-out.

[aznsiko]

do a wheel alignment

[F20C]

what do you guys mean? im not trying to tell you exactly what my camber and toe is lol. But i know its not 0 0 cause that would mean their facing straight down and not pointing in any direction am i right?

[vyets]

But you can't tell with the naked eye dude. My car looks like it has wayy more camber up the front, but it's actually exactly the same front and rear.

[9large]

Put it this way F20C, let's say you had a good amount of toe - say 5mm toe-out on the front for argument's sake. With stock front wheels and tyres and using some trig, this means that if you can spot the difference between 0mm toe and 5mm toe, your eyes can recognise 0.55 degrees in change. Usually, only things with feathers have eyes that good.

[F20C]

i see well il put it this way. It looks like their is 0 toe LOL

[CRXONE]

Mate go get a proper wheel alignment and check your tyre pressures.

I bet this solves your problem

[F20C]

how do you know it wasnt a proper wheel alignment? and my tyre pressure is fine im not retarded -.-

[ludecrs]

How long did your alignment take?

If you say less than 1hr, it wasn't a proper job.

[vyets]

If you go to your Local tyre shop it most likely wasn't a proper alignment. The tyre factory wanted an extra $70 bucks from me to do camber adjustments because they had to send in a specialist wtf is that shit.
A local bridgestone tyre shop I usually go to couldn't adjust my mates RX7's rear camber because they think its not adjustable.

If he took under 1 hour, if he went for a test drive with your car once, if they are just a tyre shop most likely.. its not a proper alignment. I know someone that works at Kmart tyre and auto and also a guy a Beaurepairs and both say that the guy who does the alignment will just make sure the car drives straight . SOMETIMES they will check the specs on a sports car but most of the time no. They will barely touch the caster or camber settings, but then again its probably because most cars dont really have much adjustments for these.

[9large]

A good wheel alignment shouldn't take that long... if they know what they're doing :)

[F20C]

Pedders. Charged me 110 for it. and i left it there for the day and went and picked it up in the arvo. Dont know how long it took.

[aozora]

Pedders. Charged me 110 for it. and i left it there for the day and went and picked it up in the arvo. Dont know how long it took.

I have had really bad experiences with Pedders personally ony my old car but at the same time, I have to thank them for trying to rip me off. Because of this, I went home and did my own research online (much like you're doing) and looked at technical diagrams, measurements and found out they were talking out of their asses (This is a while ago mind you).
They basically told me my whole subframe was bent and would need to be replaced, my steering rack was shot and would need to be replaced etc etc. All costing 1k+.

I checked it out and sure enough, bs.

Reality - steering rack was not leaking or in need of replacement, boots were simply torn. Subframe was damaged slightly but in no way needed replacing, just a minor weld repair.
All repairs and so far, all of my alignments have been done by Traction Tyres in Mulgrave (http://www.tractiontyres.com.au/). Spot on work.
These guys are involved in Motorsport and will take the time to ensure that the work they do is quality.

Summary:
- If you get an alignment - request for a print out of their last alignment settings. If they can't give you one and have used an electronic machine to do it... they're not doing a good job or have laziness to hide.
- Some times they will take the car for a test drive around the block to make sure there's no loose bolts and that the car responds correctly.
- As noted, them taking atleast an hour on an alignment is a good thing (unless your alignment settings have magically retained itself over much road abuse...) - the longer means the more accurate they're trying to get the settings to be. Basically it involves, adjusting the relevant arm, checking the reading, adjusting, checking... adjusting... becomes very tedious.
- Depending on how low your car is, they may not be able to achieve the settings you've requested OR depending on the settings you've requested, your arms may not be capable of adjusting that far. Generally all settings are adjustable but to a very limited extent (if you have stock arms/bolts/bushes anyway).
Ie. Stock settings are always usually easy to achieve UNLESS your car has been in an accident then arms could be bent, making this difficult without aftermarket kits or straight control arms.
- Specific settings requested often take longer to achieve especially if they're outside of your usual ranges but if you get these settings all the time, it shouldn't be a major issue unless you've guttered recently...
- Some suspension or alignment shops will sell you kits to achieve more drastic alignment changes but I hate to say this but shop around for prices and do research. Ie. a Whiteline castor rod bush kit for a Silvia has limited adjustment, while an aftermarket castor rod has insane amounts of adjustment... just be wary of your requirements.
- No, your rim size does not affect your alignment. All measurements are done from the hub, not from the bottom of your tyre. -_-;
- Traction Tyres do charge more than your usual tyre shop to get an alignment done but they usually provide a print out of the settings upon request. Most decent shops will be able to do the same. Another shop I know of is R Kent Engineering in Clayton or Centreline in the West.

- Lastly if I find the time I may set up my own personal car alignment service... but that's in the air at the moment :p May even provide suggestions depending on personal preferences, what you'd like to achieve, current car characteristics, general suspension setup... etc etc.
/blatant self selling

[F20C]

I have had really bad experiences with Pedders personally ony my old car but at the same time, I have to thank them for trying to rip me off. Because of this, I went home and did my own research online (much like you're doing) and looked at technical diagrams, measurements and found out they were talking out of their asses (This is a while ago mind you).
They basically told me my whole subframe was bent and would need to be replaced, my steering rack was shot and would need to be replaced etc etc. All costing 1k+.

I checked it out and sure enough, bs.

Reality - steering rack was not leaking or in need of replacement, boots were simply torn. Subframe was damaged slightly but in no way needed replacing, just a minor weld repair.
All repairs and so far, all of my alignments have been done by Traction Tyres in Mulgrave (http://www.tractiontyres.com.au/). Spot on work.
These guys are involved in Motorsport and will take the time to ensure that the work they do is quality.

Summary:
- If you get an alignment - request for a print out of their last alignment settings. If they can't give you one and have used an electronic machine to do it... they're not doing a good job or have laziness to hide.
- Some times they will take the car for a test drive around the block to make sure there's no loose bolts and that the car responds correctly.
- As noted, them taking atleast an hour on an alignment is a good thing (unless your alignment settings have magically retained itself over much road abuse...) - the longer means the more accurate they're trying to get the settings to be. Basically it involves, adjusting the relevant arm, checking the reading, adjusting, checking... adjusting... becomes very tedious.
- Depending on how low your car is, they may not be able to achieve the settings you've requested OR depending on the settings you've requested, your arms may not be capable of adjusting that far. Generally all settings are adjustable but to a very limited extent (if you have stock arms/bolts/bushes anyway).
Ie. Stock settings are always usually easy to achieve UNLESS your car has been in an accident then arms could be bent, making this difficult without aftermarket kits or straight control arms.
- Specific settings requested often take longer to achieve especially if they're outside of your usual ranges but if you get these settings all the time, it shouldn't be a major issue unless you've guttered recently...
- Some suspension or alignment shops will sell you kits to achieve more drastic alignment changes but I hate to say this but shop around for prices and do research. Ie. a Whiteline castor rod bush kit for a Silvia has limited adjustment, while an aftermarket castor rod has insane amounts of adjustment... just be wary of your requirements.
- No, your rim size does not affect your alignment. All measurements are done from the hub, not from the bottom of your tyre. -_-;
- Traction Tyres do charge more than your usual tyre shop to get an alignment done but they usually provide a print out of the settings upon request. Most decent shops will be able to do the same. Another shop I know of is R Kent Engineering in Clayton or Centreline in the West.

- Lastly if I find the time I may set up my own personal car alignment service... but that's in the air at the moment :p May even provide suggestions depending on personal preferences, what you'd like to achieve, current car characteristics, general suspension setup... etc etc.
/blatant self selling


wow well they havent tried to rip me off with it yet haha :P infact none of the places i've been to have tried to rip me off but some seem like sloppy jobs =\ ( i do get it aligned quite regulary lol ) But thanks for the info =)

[ludecrs]

snip

I'd rep you, but it won't let me cause I've given you too much rep in the past in too shorter time-frame.

But :thumbsup:

[F20C]

Dw i repped him lol :P