How to find the best ignition timing position without a dyno?

[beeza]

How to set the timing (http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/timing/timing.php)

Please read:

"Setting proper ignition timing is crutial to making power and having a reliable motor. Having it set to manufacturer specifications on a stock motor will give you the most power and best fuel economy. However once you begin to modify components on the motor, you may need to change the igition timing to extract the power from those units.
Generally, advancing the timing will give you better throttle response and low end power along with improved fuel economy. Retarding the timing will reduce the chances of detonation and provide a safer condition for boosted motors or N2O motors.
Running a spark advance that is too extreme for a given setup can yield disastrous results. Be sure to consult a professional before attempting to change your ignition timing."

Stock timing on my d16y4 is 12 degrees BTDC.I'm running the MSD system and I/H/E and I feel there's there's a better position to set my timing now.But how will I know where is the best position without a dyno?

I have read:

"The best way to set timing IMO is to use a vaccum gauge on a vaccum line going to the intake manifold.Adjust the timing by turning the distributor untill you reach maximum vaccum and tighten it back down."

Does anyone use this meathod or have an alternative meathod of finding the optimal ignition timing position?

Last time my mechanic set it by ear and was 2 degrees advanced,so 10 degrees BTDC but I am not confident that this is the best position.

Any and all feedback in this area is greatly appreciated :thumbsup:

Brett.

[richy b]

id prob advance the timing a fraction, prob in mm incriments. then test drive and see how it feels. I doubt you would harm the motor in this way.....much cheaper then dyno testing

[beeza]

That's a great idea.I remember my mechanic got me to drive around the block,eack time changing it a little until it was good.

Thanks mate.

[TODA AU]

That's a great idea.I remember my mechanic got me to drive around the block,eack time changing it a little until it was good.
Thanks mate.

Mate, it's a D16Y4... 9.4:1 C/R with a mighty 88kw
Do yourself a favour & stop wasting your time...
Just set the ignition timing per factory & be done with it.
If you want to go faster, buy a faster car.

Failing that, get a nice straight black stick, wrap it in black electrical tape...
Dip the end in gold paint & let it dry.
Once dry you now have your magic wand...
Now wave this around & blurt out idiotic sentences...
Hey presto... The car is faster.

[beeza]

It's not about power,it's about making the car run at it's best i.e. responsive and smooth.

I didn't mention I'm runnin' the MSD (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2456563#post2456563) system...

Does that change anything in your mind Adrian?

[jrxs-r]

Well... if you have spent the $$$ on the MSD ignition, just spend a litle bit more to get it set on the dyno. Advancing the timing too far can cause detonation, and WILL harm the motor. Besides that, getting it done on the dyno you can see where the gains/losses are to be had, and you can then make an educated choice to have it set to where you want it.

Just go dyno it!

[SHOGUNOVDDRK]

Just get it Dyno'd Brett..


Come to Sydney for a road trip, get it done, chillax at mine a little :thumbsup:

[Limbo]

breeza, if your gonna use your method, i did it before long ago.

What you normally do is turn on the a/c to turn up the load before driving.
I used a timing gun and turned it up a degree at a time, then when it started to ping we dropped it back 1-2 degrees. Best done on a hot day with a/c on.

Its a cheap free increase but don't expect too much, may loose abit low end though

[mocchi]

Failing that, get a nice straight black stick, wrap it in black electrical tape...
Dip the end in gold paint & let it dry.
Once dry you now have your magic wand....
Hey presto... The car is faster.

ROFL. this should be in the quote that make you lol.

[TODA AU]

It's not about power,it's about making the car run at it's best i.e. responsive and smooth.

I didn't mention I'm runnin' the MSD (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2456563#post2456563) system...

Does that change anything in your mind Adrian?

I understand what you're trying to acheive,
But no, it doesn't change my mind.

[JohnL]

From your quoted text;

"Having it set to manufacturer specifications on a stock motor will give you the most power and best fuel economy. However once you begin to modify components on the motor, you may need to change the igition timing to extract the power from those units"

and you said;
...I didn't mention I'm runnin' the MSD (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2456563#post2456563) system...

It would be a mistake to think of your new ignition system as being a 'modification' in the sense meant in the quoted text, that sense implying some significant change in the engines volumetric efficiency (i.e. ability to 'breathe', e.g. cam change and/or porting or supercharging or boost change etc etc etc), and / or an increase or decrease in compression ratio.

With a stock engine (i.e. less than very substantially modified) an 'upgraded' ignition system will have zero affect on performance unless the system it replaced was in some way faulty, and will require no change to the timing.

Really, just set it to the factory spec, or set it on a dyno (shouldn't take long just to do the timing, shouldn't cost much).

[beeza]

Well... if you have spent the $$$ on the MSD ignition, just spend a litle bit more to get it set on the dyno. Advancing the timing too far can cause detonation, and WILL harm the motor. Besides that, getting it done on the dyno you can see where the gains/losses are to be had, and you can then make an educated choice to have it set to where you want it.

Just go dyno it!

I know I know,that maybe the only way to get rid of the low end lag.Tune it with greddy emanage,I had it and was gonna then my plans changed and now they have changed back :D


Just get it Dyno'd Brett..


Come to Sydney for a road trip, get it done, chillax at mine a little :thumbsup:

Thanks SHO! I will head down there and when I do,I'll be sure to chillout for a while's wid cha :D

I want to come down to go to wakefield :thumbsup:


breeza, if your gonna use your method, i did it before long ago.

What you normally do is turn on the a/c to turn up the load before driving.
I used a timing gun and turned it up a degree at a time, then when it started to ping we dropped it back 1-2 degrees. Best done on a hot day with a/c on.

Its a cheap free increase but don't expect too much, may loose abit low end though

Thanks Limbo!

Shouldn't you be gaining low end though by advancing the timing,that's what I need.

So on a hot day you warmed up the car then turned the aircon on (full?) then set the timing.When you hear it ping,drop it back 1-2 degrees?

Is that Limbo?


I understand what you're trying to acheive,
But no, it doesn't change my mind.

On the weekend I Callorbrated the voltage on the tps and adjusted the idle via the FITV and idle/air screw,it's much better,it's sitting at more responsive revs at 100km/h - 3000rpm at it's idleing fine but it's still not picking up from a stop like I would like it too and believe it can,it's still lagging.Now,I only have the timing to play with,then greddy emanage.


It would be a mistake to think of your new ignition system as being a 'modification' in the sense meant in the quoted text, that sense implying some significant change in the engines volumetric efficiency (i.e. ability to 'breathe', e.g. cam change and/or porting or supercharging or boost change etc etc etc), and / or an increase or decrease in compression ratio.

With a stock engine (i.e. less than very substantially modified) an 'upgraded' ignition system will have zero affect on performance unless the system it replaced was in some way faulty, and will require no change to the timing.

Really, just set it to the factory spec, or set it on a dyno (shouldn't take long just to do the timing, shouldn't cost much).

Cheers John,good idea,I could just get the timing set on the dyno,cheers mate :thumbsup:

MSD says it allows for some minor advancement of timing.I dont want power I want it running at it's smoothest.

[Limbo]

breeza - yep, warm up car, on a hot day, advance alittle at a time, then thrash it with a/c on. You do it until it pings and then retart 1-2 degrees, try again, until you get the right setting so it doesn't ping. Advancing the time will increase the high rpm not the low. If you want low rpm you wanna retart.

I did this in the day when i didn't have any timing gun etc.... (young & reckless days) it works.

[beeza]

Gotcha!! I was going to buy a timing gun before I did this just so I know where it's at,so I can get it back there but you could put a mark with a white texta on the swivel arm on the dizzy to mark where you stated.Anyways,I will buy a timing light!

But I'm pretty sure advance = low end

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/timing/timing.php

"Generally, advancing the timing will give you better throttle response and low end power along with improved fuel economy. Retarding the timing will reduce the chances of detonation and provide a safer condition for boosted motors or N2O motors."

[CRXer]

best timing for a Y4 is full advance,
twist the dizzy as far as it will possibly go.
go fill up with the cheapest,lowest octane fuel u can find.
then go out & give it a good belting & dont let up till u get a result.

when u have achieved this result,u will now have more room in your engine bay for the B with a real gearstick.
u have now gained about 40% more peak power from fully advancing your Y4 :wink:

[GSi_PSi]

i duno how you can notice the difference in advancing the timing in a dseries. If it was turbo different story but its n/a turtle performance

[JohnL]

......You do it until it pings and then retart 1-2 degrees, try again, until you get the right setting so it doesn't ping.

It's possible to tune by 'ping', but it can be dangerous because the ping isn't always audible, especially at higher rpm, so you may possibly over advance it quite a bit before you hear any pinging. Quite severe detonation can be inaudible at higher rpm...

Besides, it is only a rough means because just shy of pinging isn't necessarily the timing that will give peak power, though it's likely to be reasonably close. Only a dyno or very carefully conducted / controlled timed runs will really do what you want, and with a stock engine any gain over the stock timing setting will only be slight at best...

[Limbo]

like i said, did in the days when i was 'young and reckless' i've pass those times.

I'd recommend a proper ecu and a tune, but then everyone goes through the phase at one stage

[02gzm]

How long until the emanage goes in? 'Cos the tuner will end up readjusting the timing when they install the piggyback anyway.

[beeza]

Well I just bought a timing light,so I will advance it 1 degree and take it for a drive,1 more degree,take it for a drive.I don't want to go past 2-3degrees advancement.So stock is 12deg BTDC,so 9-10deg BTDC

Will post results!

Thanks Guys.


best timing for a Y4 is full advance,
twist the dizzy as far as it will possibly go.
go fill up with the cheapest,lowest octane fuel u can find.
then go out & give it a good belting & dont let up till u get a result.

when u have achieved this result,u will now have more room in your engine bay for the B with a real gearstick.
u have now gained about 40% more peak power from fully advancing your Y4 :wink:

Haha ya nutter! :p


i duno how you can notice the difference in advancing the timing in a dseries. If it was turbo different story but its n/a turtle performance

O,U haven't been in my car then ;)

[beeza]

How long until the emanage goes in? 'Cos the tuner will end up readjusting the timing when they install the piggyback anyway.

I haven't got the emanage anymore,so I was thinking to try the timing first then go from there.

The car goes good,after I just collaborated the voltage on the tps and adjusted the FITV and idle/air screw.I had a whole weekend of tinkering with it and it's running really good! Smooth and nice.

The only thing is from a stop it's not exactly smooth,after 4k it opens up,so it's from a stop to 4k in first gear that I'm trying to get more response and a smooth pull.

[CRXer]

prob all those multiple sparks at low rpm is messing with all the excess fuel off the banked injectors....
good ol' Y4....
u can tell its one of my fave motors,cant ya beez...

btw advance will see timing firing sooner BTDC,so 14-15 deg btdc.

[beeza]

Well,I finially bought a timing light and taught myself how to set the timing,too easy!

It was at 2 deg BTDC and should be at 12 deg BTDC.I set it at 10 deg BTDC,so 2 deg advanced and OMG! FINIALLY my car is GREAT!

Not sure how it got there...but I'm onto it now! :)

I'm sure many of you guys remember my many threads about studdering/hesitation problems?!

They are gome,my car is a different car,bloody brilliant! :)

[beeza]

prob all those multiple sparks at low rpm is messing with all the excess fuel off the banked injectors....
good ol' Y4....
u can tell its one of my fave motors,cant ya beez...

btw advance will see timing firing sooner BTDC,so 14-15 deg btdc.

HAHA :D

Is that true,2 deg advance on 12 deg BTDC = 14 deg BTDC?

so BTDC dosent mean negative,i.e -14 deg BTDC?

[CRXer]

your firing 'Before"-TDC.
if u want to advance,u need to fire even more BTDC which equals greater degree BTDC.
so yes 14deg btdc is advance
anywhere 10-14 is fine.
gonna be a hell lot better than 2deg anyway lol

[beeza]

I know! I was like,why hasn't my motor blown up! It's been like that for 1 yr and 9 months now.That's how long this problem has been hanging around.

I can't wait to drive my car home 2night from work :)

[JohnL]

I know! I was like,why hasn't my motor blown up!

A retarded ignition timing (over ideal) is quite mechanically safe for the engine (no expanding flame fronts / pressure rise colliding with still rising pistons), though it might cause the exhaust valve to run hot if fuel is still burning as the exhaust valve opens.


It's been like that for 1 yr and 9 months now.That's how long this problem has been hanging around.

I can't wait to drive my car home 2night from work :)

It ought to be substantially improved, and with better economy. You need to ask why was it so far off?

[beeza]

My car is going incredibly well.It's a different car.I really dont know how it got so far out of whack..

I had TB issues before,with the FITV/IACV etc when I didn't understand my engine.My mechanic at the time set the timing best he could with the issues I had.Since then I have learnt about the TB and corrected/adjusted everything because I thought the problem was TB related.After I fixed that,the problem was still there.I bought a timing light and learnt how to set the timing (super easy in the end...) finially.

Can anything move the timing position besides turning the dizzy?

[JohnL]

The 'issues' you mention have nothing to do with ignition timing, so you need to ask, why was the mechanic trying to adress them by retarding the ignition...?

I'm not sure if the ECU has any control over ignition timing, it does with some cars. Ignition timing will change if the cam belt jumps a tooth, but I don't think there is anything else that could cause the timing to change. That's one of the nice things about modern electronic ignition systems, unlike mechanical contact breaker systems where there are a number of moving parts prone to wear and thus affecting the timing.

[string]

The ECU has complete programmable control over ignition timing (within the physical limitations of the distributor of course).

[JohnL]

The ECU has complete programmable control over ignition timing (within the physical limitations of the distributor of course).

So, does this mean that the 'physical' (base) timing created by the rotational position of the distributor body is not important, so long as this is not so far out that the ECU cannot compensate? If the 'base' timing is off by a relatively small amount, does the ECU 'correct' the base timing created by an incorrectly positioned distributor body? This would be why ignition timing should be set with the 'diagnostic plug' shorted out?

[CRXer]

dizzy base tells the ecu what the mechanical motor timing is via the TDC & CKP sensors in the base.CYP sensor just tells the ecu which cylinder needs attention by indicating No1 cylinder.
base timing is having the ecu & motor agree on what is happening.
u short the diagnostic plug to remove any compensations the ecu might be making to the timing due to temperature/elec load/etc,& ecu will hold the timing at a fixed value,eg 16deg on a Bseries,& then u can go match the mechanical timing at the motor,by making the TDC & CKP sensors in the base agree with the timing mark on the crank pulley.
ecu cant correct anything if it doesnt know whats actually going on to begin with.

[string]

So, does this mean that the 'physical' (base) timing created by the rotational position of the distributor body is not important, so long as this is not so far out that the ECU cannot compensate? If the 'base' timing is off by a relatively small amount, does the ECU 'correct' the base timing created by an incorrectly positioned distributor body? This would be why ignition timing should be set with the 'diagnostic plug' shorted out?

When it comes to actual engine position, the ECU is blindly ignorant - the system relies on the distributor's physical position being set such that the ignition tables make sense. Any changes to the base distributor position is equivalent to adding a fixed amount of timing to every cell on the timing map - an operation which cannot possibly give you the best timing map. Not only do you need a dyno but you need a tunable ECU to modify each cell for maximum performance.

The stock Honda timing maps vary from moderately conservative to majorly retarded; you can certainly find the best "distributor" position but it will not yield the best performance possible via timing tuning.

The base position is unimportant if you sync it with the ECU. You can retard/advance the base timing with the distributor by X degrees and add/subtract X degrees of advance to the entire timing table with zero net ignition timing change*.

* The coil is fired at the same crank position, but at a different distributor position. The points inside the distributor cap might not be wide enough to take my example to the extreme.

[CRXer]

looks to be about 5deg on the cap terminals & about 45-50deg on the rotor button string,well on mine anyway....

considering your cranking about 0 to -5deg & topping out at around the +40deg mark low load in general than u dont want to be too far off with your base timing,if thats what your getting at.