Flow Rates to Honda Injectors

[Civic Type R]

Can somebody please post some info on what the flow rates are on the Honda Injectors. Please also list the ohms resistance too.

Im in the shit with mine atm..

[BLKCRX]

http://www.hondata.com/techinjectorwiring.html


All B 16 / b18type R injectors are the same size.. standard injectors are still fine for a high comp b16/b20 setup with aftermarket cams ;-)

Regards James

[Civic Type R]

that link doesnt give me the flow rates James ..

[BLKCRX]

All B honda injectors flow at 240cc ;-) thats common.. as for the resistance use that link on how 2 make low imp injectors into high.

Regards James

[Civic Type R]

so ur saying that by doing this on my Civic VTir wiring - which uses high resistance injectors, i can rewire it to use the low resistance injectors ?

[LatinoHatchCrap]

yep! all should be the same. 240cc.

PS: wassup James?! I sent you an email mate.

[BLKCRX]

Hey Joe ! hmm email ? im not sure if i got it.... which email addy did ya send it 2.. ?> ? james@hondata.com.au ??

All Honda modern injectors are high impendence, in the older 1988 Hondas, Honda used low impendence, along with a resistor box to make the low impedance injectors high impendence, the same can be done to day. ie use a resistor box to make your low impedance injectors high impedance, thus compatible with the stock ECU.

Regards James

[Civic Type R]

This sounds like more screwing around just to see if these injectors are a solution to our fuel problem.

I just want a viable solution to make my new engine run to its built capacity. Cutting wires and adding a resistor pack just so a set of 'trial and error' ejectors doesnt seem a step in the right direction to me. No offence but it just doesnt sound like a solution.

James, what would you do - given ur knowledge on my car and engine?

[fueltank]

What is wrong with yours and what do you want to do?

You can always up the fuel pressure a bit to get more fuel in.

Adding in a resistor pack will mean you need low imp. injectors.

[tinkerbell]

get a adj. FPR and fuel pressure gauge...

then you can make the flow rates of the stock injectors whatever you want (within reason)

[Civic Type R]

http://www.hondata.com/techinjectorwiring.html


All B 16 / b18type R injectors are the same size.. standard injectors are still fine for a high comp b16/b20 setup with aftermarket cams ;-)

Regards James
I had a friend have his say on this subject ..

Well, it's pretty simple actually. There are 2 type of injectors on the market, saturation and peak-and-hold. Saturation injectors are your typical 12 or so ohm injector (the ITR one in my hand tests at 11.4 ohms) that use a low amperage signal to open and close them.
Basic electronic theory can demonstrate this by ohm's law. A 12 ohm injector supplied 12 volts of power will draw exactly 1 ampre of power (12/12=1). The problem you get with saturation injectors is because such a low current is used they can be a little sluggish at opening and closing (though this rating is in the milli-seconds). But you gain reliability and no need for expensive drivers to run the circuit.

Peak-and-hold on the other hand uses much lower resistance (2-4 ohm in most cases). Follow the same laws of electricity and you get 3-6 ampre to drive that injector. Because these injectors are supplied with a burst of amperage, they are able to operate at much faster speeds. The same design can be seen is your car speakers. If you use a low wattage (wattage is a measurement of amperage X voltage) amplifier, the speakers will move slower and less precise. Upgrade the amp for a higher wattage one and you will see the speaker change direction faster and move harder. It's really a rough comparison but the same principles apply. Also note that peak-and-hold injectors have a high burst opening but a relatively low hold current.

Ok, so what are they trying to entail on that site, simple really. It shows you how to use peak-and-hold injectors on a saturation system. By raising the ohm
rating of the injectors (via injector resister box) you are able to drive peak-and-hold injectors like saturation injectors on a saturation injector system.
You don't gain anything since the peak-and-hold injectors now operate like saturation injectors (sluggish open) but you do get the benefit of the larger flow of the new injectors.

If you try to run peak-and-hold injectors on a saturation injector controller (the Honda ECU), you will end up burning out the controller (again the Honda ECU) because the ECU will see a lower ohm rating and will attempt to give it the power needed, the 6 amps through something designed to flow only 1 (much like using a 1 ohm speaker on a max 4 ohm amplifier, poof). On the flip side though, with a peak-and-hold controller, it can flow the 6 amps of power, so using saturation injectors will only demand 1 (though again it will operate as a saturation system).

Honestly it's a pointless practice. If you must use peak-and-hold injectors, there are only 2 ways to pull it off. One is make the low ohm injectors look like
saturation injectors (raising the injector ohm's from 2 to 12 respectively) or convert to a peak-and-hold controller (the AEM EMS does this for example). Since most people are cheap they buy the high end injectors and then convert them to work like the stock ones but with bigger flow. Honestly it would be better just to buy saturation injectors in the first place and save
yourself the time since in the end they work the same, but again that's just me. Just out of curiosity what were you told it meant, I'm dying to hear it!

Source Name withheld

[tinkerbell]

huh? sounds like pornstars ramblings...

so what exactly is your issue?

ask a question, dont tell us what other people are saying - what do YOU want to know?

[Weq]

FFS JUST GET SOME RC INJECTORS and a piggyback. STOP ****ING AROUND, ur 'mugen' ecu is useless.

[Civic Type R]

no its not pornstar..

i cut n pasted someone elses feedback on the same question. Only he isnt on these forums. If you think my friend is wrong then say so. Im only putting the cards down on the table.

[BLKCRX]

Just to add to weq's answer make sure there high impedence injectors ;)

Typically RC injectors 200cc - 600cc are high impedance, 200cc to 2500cc are low impedance, or if there low, wire in a resistor box.
If your going 2 use that mugen ECU (meh to that) but the end result must be high impedance… although whats da point why do you need more fuel / larger injectors, your modifications don’t do it justice, bigger injectors doesn’t mean more power, or even necessarily more fuel.

Regards James

[Civic Type R]

FFS JUST GET SOME RC INJECTORS and a piggyback. STOP ****ING AROUND, ur 'mugen' ecu is useless.

Thats ur solution. But id like to find where i can get my hands on some RC injectors asap.?

so piggy back a mugen ECU ? That doesnt make this Mugen ecu worthwhile then does it ?

[BLKCRX]

All your friend has done is explain'ed in detail the link i provided....

Regards James

[Civic Type R]

Just to add to weq's answer make sure there high impedence injectors ;)

Typically RC injectors 200cc - 600cc are high impedance, 200cc to 2500cc are low impedance, or if there low, wire in a resistor box.
If your going 2 use that mugen ECU (meh to that) but the end result must be high impedance… although whats da point why do you need more fuel / larger injectors, your modifications don’t do it justice, bigger injectors doesn’t mean more power, or even necessarily more fuel.

Regards James

That is also tru too James.
That is if providing my promlems is injector / ecu related.
atm we're looking at everything. The wiring could be damaged, etc...
there are so many factors involved.

[Civic Type R]

All your friend has done is explain'ed in detail the link i provided....

Regards James
yes :)
well i needed his translation

[BLKCRX]

The Mugen ECU, is tuned for a particular engine, with particular compression, with particular engine capacity, with particular static ignition settings, with particular spark plugs, particular intake, particular exhaust and extractors, particular altitude, particular humidity, particular intake temperatures, along with particular fuel pressure, and particular cams pistons rods etc etc etc etc etc the list goes on and on, including particular injectors.

How close is your engine setup come to the exact specs of this “ECU” the further difference the more “pointless” it is using it.

Adding on the ability to tune fuel and ignition on top of what the mugen is already tuned for can be benfically, but meh you could get the same effects with a standard ECU.

Regards James

[Civic Type R]

i agree.
I believe the engine is tuned as close as possible to the Mugen ECu specs only i dont have all the components it requires. That is the fuel rail/pump and injectors. That is why im in this position.
Dude, im happy to part with this ECU. Im leaning to believe its more hassle than its worth.

[saboteur]

You need some way of reducing the pulsewidth of the signal (either on ECU or piggyback) because the bigger injectors will flow more fuel in the same amount of time obviously. If you can't change the fuel table values on the Mugen ECU then you either need a piggyback or just leave it as is. It really doesn't matter if you have peak and hold or saturated injectors, you still haven't gotten over this hurdle.

[tinkerbell]

a) what is your engines problem?

b) are the a/f ratios too rich or too lean?

c) why are you asking about injectors?

[Civic Type R]

a) what is your engines problem?

b) are the a/f ratios too rich or too lean?

c) why are you asking about injectors?

a. we dont know yet
b. all we now is that there is no fuel above 7000 and its running very lean above 5000
c. wouldnt begger injectors help ?

[saboteur]

Get it on the dyno and find out. This problem has nothing to do with the injectors UNLESS they are maxing out. I'd say your Mugen ECU doesn't have the right tune for your engine, and you need to look at something that allows you to tune the fuel maps.

[Civic Type R]

it is being diagnosed this friday.
I will keep u guys posted with whats goin wrong .

[pornstar]

thanks tinkerbell.

[ECU-MAN]

just to answer part of your original question

cars that dont have a reisister block should have 10 to 13 ohm injectors, cars with resister blocks should be 1.5 to 2.5 ohm and the resister block will be 5 to 7 ohms

[Civic Type R]

cool :)

[Weq]

Thats ur solution. But id like to find where i can get my hands on some RC injectors asap.?

so piggy back a mugen ECU ? That doesnt make this Mugen ecu worthwhile then does it ?

asap, its been almost 6 days since u started this, maybe more. since then i have imported a headgasket and a arp headstuds?? ur crazy. google RC injectors. u will get a million online stores, ebay, honda-tech forums anywhere. they are all stock em cause every modified honda with pride is running them!!

http://search.ebay.com/rc-injectors_W0QQsokeywordredirectZ1QQfromZR8

how big is ur wallet? all shipping companys offer 1-2 and 2-3day services, just depends on how much u want to pay.

[LatinoHatchCrap]

Did you also consider the bolt ons you're gona be running?
Using different diameter exhaust/headers will inadverterbly (sp?) affect the a/f curve. More the reason why you need a system that is able to manipulate fuel/ignition.

[tinkerbell]

ok - i dont normally type in caps but here goes:

GET AN ADJUSTABLE FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR AND TURN THE FUEL PRESSURE UP.

this will increase the amount of flow of the injectors.

this works until you max out the fuel pump or max out the injectors at about 60psi+

you need to use the FPR in conjunction with an accurate fuel pressure guage...

i reckon you should start at 46psi with vacuum reference removed and work your way either side of this by 1 or 2psi increments.

turning the fuel pressure up is WAYYYYYYY cheaper than installing hit or miss larger injectors.

BTW - i got 120kw atfw on stock injectors at 55psi on a B20VTEC afr was 13:1ish

[tinkerbell]

also check the fuel FLOW rate not just the pressure - if your fuel pump is bad - it will not matter what you do, you will always be lean...

[fueltank]

what tinkerbell said :D

If you can post up a dyno with AFR's it would explain things alot more.

Personally, I'd get the fuel system checked out before buying injectors.

[tinkerbell]

Personally, I'd get the fuel system checked out before buying injectors.

heck yeah! :thumbsup:

[Civic Type R]

i agree with Tinkerbell as well. RC injectors seem good and that PROVIDING i need them Weq. I will look at hooking up my B16a ecu and see what error codes it comes up with. This will eliminate other factors such as wiring, bad sensors etc ..

Then once ive done that, we can move on. But as i said earlier, I will be having it checked out tomorrow and i'll keep u informed as tho what is needed. Maybe some of u are right but i dont know until tomorrow :)
cheers.

[BLKCRX]

hmmm if u have a error code, there's no error code for injectors... apart from the injector test circuit on the ECU its self. I'm thinking your problems are not injector related.

Regards James

[fueltank]

Could be injectors are partially blocked to a tired fuel pump not flowing enough.

Let us know how you go.

Oh, have you tried replacing the fuel filter? Sometimes this item never gets changed and can affect fuel pressure/flow the injector sees