Bang for your bucks – DC2R mods

[TODA AU]

:p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[DynoDave]

If it helps out most of the VTiR's that I do make around 105-108kw with Headers+Cat+Exhaust + ECU and all other figures are the same as our dyno
:thumbsup: well done Toda AU very nice setups.
Regards Dyno Dave

[IRI]

Is this also the recomended order of doing things? (1-6?)

[madjace]

hey adrian ,

will most of what you have said be the same as on a dc5 base or are there diferent mods for the base , also some one told me that you loose torque by fitting a lightened flywheel .


thanks for all the usefull info by the way , myself and i am sure alot of other people here appreciate your imput

cheers mate

[Yspool]

Why do you reccomend the s2000 cat in the VTi-R but not the others?

[MURCHO]

thanks very much for your help toda. much appreciated.

[Weq]

Why do you reccomend the s2000 cat in the VTi-R but not the others?

cheaper maybe?

[Yspool]

When can i come n see you to get some work done?

[IRI]

What about Lightweight pulley sets? Are they worthwhile on dc2r?

[LatinoHatchCrap]

very good indication Adrian!!

[pornstar]

what about a turbo kit for the dc2r?

[euGeR]

Hey Adrian,

Do you ever see the need to upgrade the oil pump as a whole or would the oil gear suffice - im worried about oil pressure drops with an oil cooler.

[TODA AU]

Hey Adrian,

Do you ever see the need to upgrade the oil pump as a whole or would the oil gear suffice - im worried about oil pressure drops with an oil cooler.

Just the gear is all I use... Never had a problem... Oil cooler included.

[TODA AU]

what about a turbo kit for the dc2r?

That would probably be better in a seperate topic...
Gimme a break for a bit, I have to work too... LOL

[dorikin]

interesting...
how much kw should a dc2r put out at the wheels stock standard?
my mate just picked up a white dc2r and is looking to bolt on some goodies. what should he expect to pay for a heavy duty clutch, and what brands would you recommend?
and how much is he looking at for the spec A camshafts?

[fried]

nice write up adrian.

any chance of getting *rough* figures on the prices when u say minimun vs more exxy? cheers.

ive got a question here though. for a dc2. what would u reccommend modifying, if i dont want to modify the exhuast system. i know this is a gay reason, but after having a rooted full zorst, im not going back. too much drone and noise. nothing except a try - and then buy, would encourage me to do otherwise. what would be worth my money to modify with that in mind? or would u say that there is no point if im just going to give my engine hemhroids with a small zorst.

cheers adrian!

[wynode]

Great Post Adrian, glad you could take the time out to post it :)

If anyone has a Query regarding price, contact TODA AU privately (IE via email or PM).

[wynode]

ive got a question here though. for a dc2. what would u reccommend modifying, if i dont want to modify the exhuast system. i know this is a gay reason, but after having a rooted full zorst, im not going back. too much drone and noise. nothing except a try - and then buy, would encourage me to do otherwise. what would be worth my money to modify with that in mind? or would u say that there is no point if im just going to give my engine hemhroids with a small zorst.

cheers adrian!
I think this has been answered in his first posts in this thread! :)

[olda]

By request,
Bang for your buck – DC2R


Medium budget – Stop @ ECU
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec B camshafts / valve springs / adjustable cam pulleys / oil pump gear / fuel pump / fuel pressure regulator / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 125~128kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)




Adrian

For all of you, who are wondering about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I have basically done the "Medium budget" mods to my DC2R,
- minus flywheel, clutch, lower final drive, oil pump gear, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. (Spec A camshafts bought s/h).
All up incl. some mild head work,ECU and the dyno tune $7000.00
With all the above bits I'm missing, 1 would be looking @ the additional
$2.5 - 3K I guess.
(Yes, at that figure, the turbo starts to look good. However I wanted to stay N/A).
Result ......122.2 kw @ wheels (starting point 95.5 kw)
(Cost per kw = $262)
So, there u have it!!!!!!!! :cool:

[qup70c]

For all of you, who are wondering about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I have basically done the "Medium budget" mods to my DC2R,
- minus flywheel, clutch, lower final drive, oil pump gear, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. (Spec A camshafts bought s/h).
All up incl. some mild head work,ECU and the dyno tune $7000.00
With all the above bits I'm missing, 1 would be looking @ the additional
$2.5 - 3K I guess.
(Yes, at that figure, the turbo starts to look good. However I wanted to stay N/A).
Result ......122.2 kw @ wheels (starting point 95.5 kw)
(Cost per kw = $262)
So, there u have it!!!!!!!! :cool:

Dude your missing half the list
:D

[00dc2]

Thanks heaps Adrian.

I think this is very useful to many dc2 owners!

[Jim80y]

Dude your missing half the list
:D

The total sounds about right, I've prob spent just over 10k and I'm missing the oil cooler, oil pump gear and final drive. I got the spec Bs 2nd hand too :D

[madjace]

I'll do another post for DC5 bang for bucks in a day or so when I've got time if you like...

Regarding losing torque... No, you can't lose torque...
What is lost is inertia, it is the inertia of the flywheel that keeps you motoring up a hill on the freeway without pushing the accelerator more...
It is this same inertia that prevents you from achieving maximum acceleration.
This same inertia gives a very smooth idle...
I think you'll find, most people who don't like lightweight flywheels, actually don't like fast cars & certainly don't enjoy sports driving... LOL
Cheers

Adrian

that would be great , thanks very much adrian

[spoondc2]

By request,

High budget – best power delivery
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy-duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Ported head / Spec B camshafts / valve springs/ Titanium retainers / adjustable cam pulleys/ Hi power timing belt / oil pump gear / fuel pump / Forged pistons 12.5:1 / modified stock rods / fuel pressure regulator / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 132~136kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)





Sorry what's the meaning of lower final drive? stock dc2r have 4.785 and then?

[lerroy]

For all of you, who are wondering about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I have basically done the "Medium budget" mods to my DC2R,
- minus flywheel, clutch, lower final drive, oil pump gear, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator. (Spec A camshafts bought s/h).
All up incl. some mild head work,ECU and the dyno tune $7000.00
With all the above bits I'm missing, 1 would be looking @ the additional
$2.5 - 3K I guess.
(Yes, at that figure, the turbo starts to look good. However I wanted to stay N/A).
Result ......122.2 kw @ wheels (starting point 95.5 kw)
(Cost per kw = $262)
So, there u have it!!!!!!!! :cool:


Thats a lot of money per Kilowatt....

seriously makes me think twice about going the all motor route... :(

thanks for the info Adrian

[Jim80y]

Sorry what's the meaning of lower final drive? stock dc2r have 4.785 and then?

Go the ATS 4.929 :thumbsup:

I hope that's what he means :p

[spoondc2]

Just wonder what kind of kw should be expected on a ek4 with the following mods?

Intake
Header + cat + cat-back system
Ported head / Spec A camshafts / valve springs/ Power FC / 70mm throttle body/ larger intake manifold / dyno tuning.

I thought it's hard to gain power on wheel because the throttle and intake manifold are too big and not enough compressions

What do you think?

[TODA AU]

Just wonder what kind of kw should be expected on a ek4 with the following mods?

Intake
Header + cat + cat-back system
Ported head / Spec A camshafts / valve springs/ Power FC / 70mm throttle body/ larger intake manifold / dyno tuning.

I thought it's hard to gain power on wheel because the throttle and intake manifold are too big and not enough compressions

What do you think?

Sorry, but there's just too many variables to give an acurate indication.
The only thing on your list that is identifiable is the cams,
The other parts may well be top shelf parts, or they may not...
If the combination of parts is sound, and the parts do actually work, you can expect reasonable gains... Without opening the bottom end of an EK B16 though, 110kw is fair to say as about as far as you'll get realisticly...
That is assuming your combination works..

Cheers

Adrian

[spoondc2]

TODA AU: It's my fd's car, and he actually lose power, about 80kw on wheel only, he did have thinner head gasket, but what do you mean by bottom end? you mean he need some pistons like CTR ones?

[TODA AU]

TODA AU: It's my fd's car, and he actually lose power, about 80kw on wheel only, he did have thinner head gasket, but what do you mean by bottom end? you mean he need some pistons like CTR ones?

You asked what I would expect etc...
I mentioned there were too many variables.
In your case, clearly you have a combination that is bordering on crap...
What exactly do you have? (Don't know) But.. Maybe I can pointout where you've gone wrong...

Intake - Type / brand / make?
Header - type / brand etc?
Cat - type / brand / size ?
Cat-back system - Brand ? Custom ?
Ported head - who did it???
Spec A camshafts - Who put them in / set them up ???
Valve springs - are they the right ones?
Power FC + dyno tuning - Did they know what they were doing???
70mm throttle body - Marginal / Generally too big for B16A
larger intake manifold - Brand? / Custom? probably not good parts

Further... I don't see adjustable cam pulleys listed - why?

Adrian

[spoondc2]

[QUOTE=TODA AU]You asked what I would expect etc...
I mentioned there were too many variables.
In your case, clearly you have a combination that is bordering on crap...
What exactly do you have? (Don't know) But.. Maybe I can pointout where you've gone wrong...

Intake - Type / brand / make?
Header - type / brand etc?
Cat - type / brand / size ?
Cat-back system - Brand ? Custom ?
Ported head - who did it???
Spec A camshafts - Who put them in / set them up ???
Valve springs - are they the right ones?
Power FC + dyno tuning - Did they know what they were doing???
70mm throttle body - Marginal / Generally too big for B16A
larger intake manifold - Brand? / Custom? probably not good parts

Further... I don't see adjustable cam pulleys listed - why?



Intake - CAI, pipe extend to bumper then pod filter
Header - 5-zigen 4-2-1
Cat - carsound 2.5 inch
Cat-back system - 5-zigen a-spec
Ported head - C&J
Spec A camshafts - C&J
Valve springs - toda valve springs
Cam gear - Toda
Power FC + dyno tuning - really not sure about C&J
70mm throttle body - spoon 70mm throttle
larger intake manifold - 98 spec intake manifold

[fried]

lol sounds exxy. wondering why it isnt working together.

adrian, im going to pm you.

[edw-R]

Good post!!
I just go to medium stage. I got 123.1kw at the wheel without fuel pump and lower final drive. Do i need ATS 4.929 instead the factory 4.785?? Is it worth??

[spoondc2]

Hi Edward.....

Seems like you don't drive your car on street? ATS FD is hardcore :thumbsup:
you just getting the FD or also 3rd-5th gear?

[edw-R]

Hi spoondc2,
Thank you for your opinion. I think i will not install ATS Final gear. If my final gear is 4.4, I must go ahead. Anyway, the next mod i want to change my factory wheel to rays forged wheel. Hope can mod soon!!!!!

[spoondc2]

Well..... good luck mate...... :thumbsup:

[TODA AU]

No offence, but your set-up isn't topshelf.
You've cut corners on cost and it's hurt your power output.
I'll give you a rundown on where you've probably gone wrong & where the problem areas can / could be.

Intake - CAI, pipe extend to bumper then pod filter
Possibly too long, will improve low end & hurt top end if too long...
24"~28" works well
Use dyno to test lengths & confirm gains or losses...
Effectivness of filter can also be checked / logged.
Absolute pressure - shouldn't change...

Header - 5-zigen 4-2-1
These are designed for looks, not improved performance...
You may as well keep the factory header, as you'd probably make more power.
Nb: These are not found on cars that make any real horsepower - anywhere.
Repalce with header that works.

Cat - carsound 2.5 inch
Nothing special... Probably causing problems...
Check exhaust system pressure on dyno to confirm.

Cat-back system - 5-zigen a-spec
Once again, nothing special. Shouldn't stop you making medium levels of power, though not seen on cars with real grunt.

Ported head - C&J
I've seen a lot of heads destroyed by crap port jobs.
Not saying that's what you've got...
But it is possible that this is the root of all your evil.

Spec A camshafts / toda valve springs / Cam gear - Toda
These parts do work... But not when they are installed incorrectly.
Your installer didn't have had much luck elseswhere...
It stands to reason they'd muck this up too...
Must be set to exact LCA to work correctly...
Should be checked - can be fixed.

Power FC + dyno tuning - really not sure about C&J
Can be fixed...
Ie: Have someone else tune it...
Bare in mind it'll only make so much untill you sort out your combination.

70mm throttle body - spoon 70mm throttle
No problem... This is Stock DC2R throttle with 70mm bellmouth leading to it.
Actual butterfly is stock, not 70mm.
Performance improver, though only slightly...
In any case, you can see on the dyno if the throttle is too small / large etc...
Log MAP & change resolution to -2"hg ~ +1psi

larger intake manifold - 98 spec intake manifold
No problem with Spec A cams...
No good with std B16A cams = -4hp

[olda]

The total sounds about right, I've prob spent just over 10k and I'm missing the oil cooler, oil pump gear and final drive. I got the spec Bs 2nd hand too :D
Kw's at wheels with the spec b's ???????????????:wave:

[spoondc2]

No offence, but your set-up isn't topshelf.
You've cut corners on cost and it's hurt your power output.
I'll give you a rundown on where you've probably gone wrong & where the problem areas can / could be.

Intake - CAI, pipe extend to bumper then pod filter
Possibly too long, will improve low end & hurt top end if too long...
24"~28" works well
Use dyno to test lengths & confirm gains or losses...
Effectivness of filter can also be checked / logged.
Absolute pressure - shouldn't change...

Header - 5-zigen 4-2-1
These are designed for looks, not improved performance...
You may as well keep the factory header, as you'd probably make more power.
Nb: These are not found on cars that make any real horsepower - anywhere.
Repalce with header that works.

Cat - carsound 2.5 inch
Nothing special... Probably causing problems...
Check exhaust system pressure on dyno to confirm.

Cat-back system - 5-zigen a-spec
Once again, nothing special. Shouldn't stop you making medium levels of power, though not seen on cars with real grunt.

Ported head - C&J
I've seen a lot of heads destroyed by crap port jobs.
Not saying that's what you've got...
But it is possible that this is the root of all your evil.

Spec A camshafts / toda valve springs / Cam gear - Toda
These parts do work... But not when they are installed incorrectly.
Your installer didn't have had much luck elseswhere...
It stands to reason they'd muck this up too...
Must be set to exact LCA to work correctly...
Should be checked - can be fixed.

Power FC + dyno tuning - really not sure about C&J
Can be fixed...
Ie: Have someone else tune it...
Bare in mind it'll only make so much untill you sort out your combination.

70mm throttle body - spoon 70mm throttle
No problem... This is Stock DC2R throttle with 70mm bellmouth leading to it.
Actual butterfly is stock, not 70mm.
Performance improver, though only slightly...
In any case, you can see on the dyno if the throttle is too small / large etc...
Log MAP & change resolution to -2"hg ~ +1psi

larger intake manifold - 98 spec intake manifold
No problem with Spec A cams...
No good with std B16A cams = -4hp
It's ok....... ^^ as i told you it's not my car, i just try to give him some help, i was thinking of some points but i was not sure, but now you confirm that it's true so thanks very much......

[Jim80y]

Kw's at wheels with the spec b's ???????????????:wave:
Only a couple more kw than you ;)

[olda]

Only a couple more kw than you ;)

Taaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!
How does she idle??????
Any power under 3k RPM????????
Do you employ 2.5" exh right through???????
Any exh boom??????????
I have 2 resonators on my exh now and it's not too bad.
What's your RPM cut out???????? :wave::wave: :wave:

[Jim80y]

Idles fine, around 900rpm. Doesn't feel as strong as stock below 3k rpm (probably the Mugen intake, ask all Mugen intake owners about this lol). Above 5k rpm it gets pretty interesting though ;) Using 60mm exhaust, not sure what you mean by exhaust boom but my exhaust is not loud, I usually hear the intake more than anything. RPM limit is 8900rpm.

[olda]

Idles fine, around 900rpm. Doesn't feel as strong as stock below 3k rpm (probably the Mugen intake, ask all Mugen intake owners about this lol). Above 5k rpm it gets pretty interesting though ;) Using 60mm exhaust, not sure what you mean by exhaust boom but my exhaust is not loud, I usually hear the intake more than anything. RPM limit is 8900rpm.
Taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!
60mm exh is 2.25". That's why it's quiet. With 2.5" exh you could liberate some more kw from your B18C7, BUT the penalty will be a noise and the boom.
My cut out is 9000rpm.
Don't know much about the Mugen intake, however - the very favourable comments from all sides. I'm using a custom short stack and the K&N filter.
Intake roar when the VTEC cuts in is really orgasmic. :D :D :D
:wave::wave::wave:

[edw-R]

Hi Toda Au:
Quote:Header - 5-zigen 4-2-1
These are designed for looks, not improved performance...
You may as well keep the factory header, as you'd probably make more power.
Nb: These are not found on cars that make any real horsepower - anywhere.
Repalce with header that works.

My friend tested on dyno with factory header and 5-zigen 4-2-1. He got more 3.5 kw on the wheel. How about toda header?? Can it make more power?? Thx

[BF]

http://bob123e.tripod.com/thegreatheadertest/

[kenshin]

dont see no 5zigen ones there...

[spoondc2]

It's just hard to say, no one is wrong here, There are ppl gain no power from the 5-zigen header but there are 1 guy in hk who have a dc2r with JUN 2.0 or 2.2 kit (couldn't remember) gain quite a lot of power with it, so you will never get the right answer, just get what you think is right

[kenshin]

i'd buy the 5zigen ones... if i knew anyone whose prepared to sell it for a fair price ;)

[edw-R]

i'd buy the 5zigen ones... if i knew anyone whose prepared to sell it for a fair price ;)
Yeah!! I am using 5zigen header now. Feeling very good. The price is not bad. Cheer!!:D

[DynoDave]

It's just hard to say, no one is wrong here, There are ppl gain no power from the 5-zigen header but there are 1 guy in hk who have a dc2r with JUN 2.0 or 2.2 kit (couldn't remember) gain quite a lot of power with it, so you will never get the right answer, just get what you think is rightYou just guys answered your own questions, Adrain said the 5 Zigen header on a B18C engine would not make any power gains and might even go backwards but you talk here about a 2 to 2.2lt Jun engine and he is not talking about Jun engines as you find the more developed the engine is even header of not good design become good designs.The best off the shelf header I have used on a B-series engine is the Toda Header there are some CRAZY headers around at the moment from the US but you have to wait 6 months for them and they normally cost $2500 + to get them out here.
Regards Dyno Dave

[spoondc2]

You just guys answered your own questions, Adrain said the 5 Zigen header on a B18C engine would not make any power gains and might even go backwards but you talk here about a 2 to 2.2lt Jun engine and he is not talking about Jun engines as you find the more developed the engine is even header of not good design become good designs.The best off the shelf header I have used on a B-series engine is the Toda Header there are some CRAZY headers around at the moment from the US but you have to wait 6 months for them and they normally cost $2500 + to get them out here.
Regards Dyno Dave
Hahahah alright man...... thanks :p
So everyone recommends Toda Header.......

[DynoDave]

Hahahah alright man...... thanks :p
So everyone recommends Toda Header.......There are lots of good headers out there but the Toda seems to work with 99%
of the engine combinations that you guys put together.And some of the cheaper headers give very little or none at all as far as performance goes.
Regards Dyno Dave

[spoondc2]

There are lots of good headers out there but the Toda seems to work with 99%
of the engine combinations that you guys but together.And some of the cheaper headers give very little or none at all as far as performance goes.
Regards Dyno Dave
Sorry maybe bit OT, does anyone knows anything about the Skunk2 Intake manifold?

[edw-R]

I just changed mugen catback exhaust. Can't believe that good. I enjoy my car again and again.

[DynoDave]

Sorry maybe bit OT, does anyone knows anything about the Skunk2 Intake manifold?The Skunk2 manifold from what I can measure is bigger in volume and the runners are a different length to the DC2R manifold and would offer a small overall gain on a STD engine.You need to use them on a built engine where you are looking for more airflow.
Regards Dyno Dave

[Centurius]

i know this is off topic... hell im even on the wrong category! but any chance of getting a Gen2 CRX bang for buck upgrade list? or even some that might relate from the teggy's to the D16 in the CRX?

thanks for any help, much appreciated

[wil]

very nice read there... well done.. thanks!!!

[fabz]

Can you start with the low budget and then eventually do the added steps in the medium and high budget or?

[TODA AU]

Can you start with the low budget and then eventually do the added steps in the medium and high budget or?

Short answer is Yes...

Detailed is as follows:
Ok...
Low budget to High budget, the step by step process is the same up to step 6.
That is:
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy-duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system

@ step 6, to go from low to med to high.
The programable ECU component of your modifications becomes critical.
Always opt for a real ECU over an interceptor or piggy back if you can afford it. Once the ECU is in place, this affords you the freedom to chaqnge what ever you wish, in what order you decide.

[GReY_CVC]

how much would it cost to tune a vtir in the way you have said it out??... n how many kw would it run after??... ive got an aftermarket exhaust but yehh dunnno the brand i fink its not such a good brand??... what do you fink i should put on next??..

[Flash_Gordon]

hey toda au rekon you could put a rough price braket for each of the 4 setups?, i know its kinda hard seeing as theres soo many different brands but assuming that you would be using nearly the best parts what would rough price estimates be ??

[deltaboy]

Yeh, thats what im wondering as well.

Because im working from scratch, I want to know what the best possible parts and prices are to do up my stock dc2r.I realised that the most expensive parts don't exactly do a better job than other brands. I want to Get it all in one go instead of changing parts around all the time, then again, better parts are always being released. I want to Prevent the engine from wearing down.

cheers mate

[TODA AU]

Ok, I'll do some prices in a day or so...
Individual, & packages... (I'm flatout at the mo, so please be patient)
Cheers

Adrian

[olda]

Go the ATS 4.929 :thumbsup:

I hope that's what he means :p

(It's good to see this thread still going!)

ATS 4.929???????

The standard DC2R revs it's **** off at 100km/h with 4.7 diff. :(
What is it like with 4.9 diff????????????????? :confused:

[zen]

how big should the exhaust system be? and are we talking straight from the engine or the cat back for maximum power?

[10KRPM]

(It's good to see this thread still going!)

ATS 4.929???????

The standard DC2R revs it's **** off at 100km/h with 4.7 diff. :(
What is it like with 4.9 diff????????????????? :confused:

Thats why Adrian(TODA AU) said at the beginning of this thread that if you dont ever track the car then dont do the mods he suggested. Of course if you rarely track the car then you wouldnt install the ATS gear set cos it would be not suited to what your driving situation is....but in saying that.....you did after all buy a Type R...and where are they best suited to??? the track :D

[olda]

Thats why Adrian(TODA AU) said at the beginning of this thread that if you dont ever track the car then dont do the mods he suggested. Of course if you rarely track the car then you wouldnt install the ATS gear set cos it would be not suited to what your driving situation is....but in saying that.....you did after all buy a Type R...and where are they best suited to??? the track :D

Well.............just wondering how busy the R was with such a short diff.:confused:
BTW i agree with your comments.:cool:
R for Racing.:thumbsup:

[DynoDave]

The Skunk2 manifold from what I can measure is bigger in volume and the runners are a different length to the DC2R manifold and would offer a small overall gain on a STD engine.You need to use them on a built engine where you are looking for more airflow.
Regards Dyno Dave
Ok I have tested the Skunk2 intake manifold on this car remember it is a VTiR and I am about to test one on a DC2R ( http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18358 )
and we are very happy that they do work on a STD engine with some tuning the next step is to try different headers and more tuning so guys keep this thread going as will post more results as I do them.
Regards Dyno Dave

[TODA AU]

hey toda au rekon you could put a rough price braket for each of the 4 setups?, i know its kinda hard seeing as theres soo many different brands but assuming that you would be using nearly the best parts what would rough price estimates be ??

I know it's been a long time comming but anyway...
Ok… Rather than break down what individual parts are etc…

As this is not an advert or anything, the price ranges given are for using top shelf components.

This gives an idea as to what you would spend for maximum returns…

Remember, you get what you pay for. Cheap parts are cheap because the don’t work so good…
I've corrected the power figures as to what I'm averaging now, & added a couple more set-up options...
NB: Increased capacity is not mentioned. This is always an option in any set-up configuration though not always recomended.


Low budget – never going to get an ECU

(Approx $7K + fitting for Top shelf parts)
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy-duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec A camshafts / vernier adjustable cam pulleys (optional)
Power output: 116~118kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics- shootout)

Medium budget – Stop @ ECU

(Approx $10.5K + fitting for Top shelf parts)
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec B camshafts / valve springs / adjustable cam pulleys / oil pump gear / fuel pump / fuel pressure regulator / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 128~130kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)

High budget – best power delivery

(Approx $15K + engine assembly cost & fitting for top shelf parts)
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy-duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Ported head / Spec B camshafts / valve springs/ Titanium retainers / adjustable cam pulleys/ Hi power timing belt / oil pump gear / fuel pump / Forged pistons 12.5:1 / modified stock rods / fuel pressure regulator / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 136~140kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)

Maximum effort (extreeme budget) - B18C engine. (Std intake manifold)

(Approx $20K + engine assembly cost + fitting for top shelf parts)
#1 – Lightweight flywheel (Consider twin plate carbon)
#2 – Heavy-duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Ported head / Spec C camshafts / valve springs/ Titanium retainers / adjustable cam pulleys/ Hi power timing belt / oil pump gear / fuel pump / Forged pistons 12.5+:1 / TODA sleaved engine block / lightweight aftermarket rods / fuel pressure regulator / injectors / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 146~154kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)

Race engine - Improved production car / drag

(Approx $28K + engine assembly cost + fitting for top shelf parts)
#1 – Hyper R or twin plate carbon clutch
#2 – Transmission cross gear kit
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake - Muiti throttle (Sports injection) or suitable alternative.
#5 – Header + cat-back system (65~70mm)
#6 – Ported head / Spec C camshafts / valve springs/ Titanium retainers / adjustable cam pulleys/ Hi power timing belt / oil pump gear / fuel pump / Forged pistons 12.5+:1 / TODA sleaved engine block / lightweight aftermarket rods / fuel pressure regulator / injectors / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 156~162kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)

Race engine - DC2R GTP production car (On Optimax)

(Approx $6K + fitting for top shelf parts)
#1 – HD clutch (Exedy)
#2 – JDM 4~1 header (Must be Honda part)
#3 – SPL 65~70mm exhaust system
#4 – Intake (Stock DC2R - Ie: Std airbox / std air filter)
#5 – Use DC2R intake valve springs on exhaust valves / replace oil pump gear / B16B intake camshaft / fit baffled sump pan (spoon)
#6 – ECU / extensive dyno tuning / heat range 7 or colder plugs
Power output: 118~120kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)
NB: Usually engine is stock from factory.
If rebuilding, care should be taken not to compromise class regulations.
NB: Oil cooler not permitted. / use Motul FF-LSD oil in GB.

DC2 VtiR – low budget
(Approx $9K + fitting for top shelf parts)
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy duty clutch
#3 – DC2R Gearbox & Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + S2000 cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec A camshafts
NB: DO NOT JUST DROP IN…
Minimum: Use Intake valve springs on Exhaust valves,
Fit ITR intake springs to intake valves.

4cyl FWD shootout reference
150 ramp rate / 80 inertia
Correction per dyno weather station.

Hope that helps clarify things for some guys...
Cheers

Adrian

[r`Geno]

By far one of the most informative posts for us Australian DC2R's - cheers for the heads up!

[deltaboy]

Stupid question.

Is this setup compatible for turbo kits installed. especially with AVO bolt on.?

[TODA AU]

Stupid question.

Is this setup compatible for turbo kits installed. especially with AVO bolt on.?

Not entirley...
Though turbocharged engines will respond allong these lines,
To say this is broadly applicable would be missleading.
Being specific, the turbocharger supplied with the AVO kit is too small.
Ie: Following an increased volumetric efficiency tuning route will not pay off if you them use an entry level bang for bucks turbo kit that is designed purely to up the ante a little. Not keep up with a race engine.with a teenie tot turbo. That said...
The AVO kit can be used as a baisis for a more powerful setup.

Example: A lil CRX I built with a B16A + 480hp GTBB turbocharger + Spec B cams etc / mild ported head / pistons & rods etc, etc....
Some members of this forum know the car I mean.
Exhaust manifold is a cast HKS item. The turbo is low mount & internaly gated. (Not AVO, but not too different either)
To the casual observer, this looks to be a neat, yet not complex bolt-on kit.
Fact, is the car is an animal...
This little 1.6L engine now punches out 294kw to the front wheels on 18psi. (Dyno dynamics)
This is on pump gas... (Optimax)
Full boost is achieve by 4500rpm (wastegate opens) with a maximum rpm of 9500rpm.
Peak power is at 9000rpm
(NB: This is a curcuit car, not a drag car... It stops & goes around corners too)
Now using an entry level, basic turbo kit.
You could never come near this, but nor should you expect them too.

That said, it's better to seperate NA & Turbo tuning in that you're better off not mixing the two, unless this is the plan from the very beginning.
I can do a bang for bucks tread specifcly about turbocharging, if there's enough interest, but please be aware that because there are so many kits etc available these days. I can't possibly comment with confidence on all of them.
I can say, in my experience, there is no such thing as cheap horsepower.
It always costs money & it's only once you've got it, do you realise how worth it, it is.
If you guys want to delve into that topic, no problem.
But do it in a different thread.
Cheers

Adrian

[tinkerbell]

can B16A pistons be fitted to a B18C2 to increase compression using standard (un-machined) B18C2 rods?

[spoondc2]

can B16A pistons be fitted to a B18C2 to increase compression using standard (un-machined) B18C2 rods?

I think B16A piston gives the same compression number as JDM ITR P73 piston but it lacks of the black coating that ITR gives you? And it fits although you are using B18C rods?

[tinkerbell]

I think B16A piston gives the same compression number as JDM ITR P73 piston but it lacks of the black coating that ITR gives you?

yes, abt 11.5:1 compression with stock head gasket, close to 12:1 with thinner HG or shaved head...



And it fits although you are using B18C rods?

yes, that is what i am asking, does it fit the B18C2 VTiR rods?

has anyone heard of anyone doing this?

[wynode]

Might want to ask MRJDM who has a b18c bottom end with b16a head and CTR pistons I think it was.

[TODA AU]

can B16A pistons be fitted to a B18C2 to increase compression using standard (un-machined) B18C2 rods?

Yes. This can be done, & care must be taken during asembly.
But I have to ask, if you're going to the trouble of pulling your engine down,
Why build it half-arsed? Using OEM pistons, it'll only ever be almost there, in terms of performance.

[tinkerbell]

might just do a B20VTEC then,

it is easily the best 'bang for you buck' modification, dollar per kW & drivability wise...

there are too many unknowns with the rebuild concept...

[TODA AU]

might just do a B20VTEC then,

it is easily the best 'bang for you buck' modification, dollar per kW & drivability wise...

there are too many unknowns with the rebuild concept...

Dave,
The B20Vtec was been deliberatly left out of this post as a recomended path as the B20 engine block is not suitable for motorsport use.
Ie: IMO it's a really bad idea.
Though it may offer good value in the short term, it is not something you can expect long engine life from due to exessive piston speed.

Regarding "unknowns" & "the rebuild concept"
What are you saying?
Nothing is really known ?
Rebuilding an engine is nothing more than a concept ?
C'mon... :p

[tinkerbell]

the 'concept' of sleeving the block, properly.

yes, it is not really *known* whether you will get screwed over by the machinist...

i.e. how to avoid pitfalls faced by those who have intrepidly gone down this path, without sourcing overseas work?

therefore it remains an "abstract idea or notion" untill it can be shown that there is capability for 'rebuilding' an engine (once) in Australia as viable...

anyways, if you disagree, what is the price for a 86mm bored/sleeved, balanced, clearanced assembled, and clean B series block with 89mm stroke knife edged crank? (assuming pistons and rods supplied by customer)

cheers!

[TODA AU]

I know what you’re getting at but your trust of your machinist is something between you & he…
I can’t really comment on that.

Personally, I don’t have a problem sending blocks abroad or having them sourced overseas & modified there.
I can say with confidence,
I have used many engine blocks prepared by TODA without any problem.
IMO it’s certainly worth considering outsourcing to foreign companies when you want nothing but the best.
That said, no doubt there are machinist in this country capable of completing this task. In my case, reliability is a key issue & as such I normally only use TODA cylinder liners, fitted by TODA.
Of the one engine built with Darton sleeves.
It has yet to return from Darton, so I can’t comment on the long-term reliability of this engine at this stage.

Regarding re-building an engine in Australia.
As I do this sort of a thing for a living,
I can assure there is certainly a capability in this country for building engines.
Perhaps not within the circle you know.
But don’t kid yourself into thinking this is not the case.
More often than not, the price of a top engine is too high for the average punter.
(Hence the disasters I think you’re refering to in the back of your mind.)
Regarding the engine combination quote you mentioned.
I’m not going to offer you a quote on such an engine in this thread for 3 reasons.
1) This is an information thread with the intent of informing guys how to go about modifying their DC2 Integras. Turning it into an advertisement isn’t in line with the original intent.
2) The combination you suggest, with 86mm bores in a B-series engine is not practical.
3) C'mon Dave, you’re tighter than a fish a 40 fathoms, there is simply no way you would ever follow through. Plus, it’s probably time someone told you the truth about dream engine combination not being exactly ideal.
Explaining myself etc…
A B20 block is out of the question, they already have issues splitting down the seam with 84mm bores @ high torque outputs.
Should you decide to use Darton sleeves, you could feasibly bore it out to 86mm.
However, the wall thickness of the liner is critically thin @ 1.17mm
Personally, I would not go there for obvious reasons.
FWIW, Darton do not recommend bore sizes in excess of 84.5mm.
The next issue is head gasket problems between the cylinders due to 5mm less metal between each cylinder bore.
(Combined with the added problem of finding a good gasket)
Ie: There is substantially less area separating the cylinders.
Now say you wanted to use a DART block…
You’re still not going to use bigger than 84.5mm pistons if you want reliability.
@ 86mm, the cylinder wall thickness would be 0.815mm
Way too thin for any application.
Even @ 84.5mm the sleeve thickness is only 1.565mm
85.00mm bores is as far as most dare go on race engines.

Regarding an 89mm stroke “Knife edged” crank.
Performing this on a venerable B20 crank is not a good idea.
If you must use that stroke, an Eagle lightweight 4340 chromoly crankshaft or something similar would be a much better option than the factory B20.
Better again IMO would be an OEM DC2R crankshaft.
Cheers


Adrian

[tinkerbell]

sorry, i should not mislead - the 'no-expense-spared' bored block is not for me... but will pass the info on...

will get an 'offline' quote regarding a 84mm B18CR base block ;)

thanks for taking the time to explain it Adrian, you are one of the only guys to trust with this sort of info :)

[ALLMTR]

Good info, scary prices but I'm part of the 40 fathoms club :wave:

[JonNy_DexTeR]

kewl... nice to know... i have a DC5R and i like knowing that it has potential

[Malenic1981]

Nice topic with lots of info, I am getting an ITR (dc2) in next few months (have to sale my civic first:), I have spent some time on the net (doing a research) and I also went to some tuning shops here in Perth to ask for info about tuning ITR. The result is:

For ITR DC2, street and track use:
Full exhaust system (4-1 headers, cat-back)
Air intake (mugen carbon box would be great)
Apexi V-AFC
Oil cooler
Suspension (Tein, KONI, HKS, Shocks, springs and Sway Bars)
Bigger brake calipers (I love the Spoon ones)

This is what most of people recomanded to me and that's what I will do, with this set up car is very eazy every day driver, engine is kept factory standard so it lasts longer, but it gets some extra hp from exhaust, air intake and good tuning, and with good suspension set up it's gonna handle like F1.
I think that this set up is the starting one which can be clasified as a low budget set up.

[kousoku]

Nice topic with lots of info, I am getting an ITR (dc2) in next few months (have to sale my civic first:), I have spent some time on the net (doing a research) and I also went to some tuning shops here in Perth to ask for info about tuning ITR. The result is:

For ITR DC2, street and track use:
Full exhaust system (4-1 headers, cat-back)
Air intake (mugen carbon box would be great)
Apexi V-AFC
Oil cooler
Suspension (Tein, KONI, HKS, Shocks, springs and Sway Bars)
Bigger brake calipers (I love the Spoon ones)

This is what most of people recomanded to me and that's what I will do, with this set up car is very eazy every day driver, engine is kept factory standard so it lasts longer, but it gets some extra hp from exhaust, air intake and good tuning, and with good suspension set up it's gonna handle like F1.
I think that this set up is the starting one which can be clasified as a low budget set up.


as adrian might also tell you, i wouldn't buy a piggy back system such as the v-afc, just go the full blown cpu such as hondata or power fc. CHanging the vtec cut in point aint really going to increase efficiency, instead it will just the power band somewhere were it shouldn;t be.

=D

[Malenic1981]

I didn't think of changing the vtec point, just making sure that fuel is geting where needed, but also geting the whole new thing isn't bad idea, I could get brand new power fs for some $1300 with hand controler, I know this man that does instalation and dyno tuning for $200 so it would be good way to go as well, but I also heard that factory ECU are very good with some piggi back system (apexi).

[10KRPM]

Get it from one of the traders....fc for around 1k but it will be a jap version so rewiring might have to be done for the aussie car.

[type one]

bigger brake calipers on a predominantly street driven ITR overkill... the standard stoppers are plenty awesome for the amount of power you will extract from the mods you are thinking of doing... just get some better brake pads - save yourself 1500-2000. Then you can spend that money on getting better "stuff".

[Malenic1981]

Calipers, you are right, but I love the blue spoon ones, they give you good looks as well as better braking, how much would they be???

[TODA AU]

See traders section:

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13689&page=3

[GreekWarrior]

Hey just a quick question, are all those mods for the V-tec integra's? If so how much power would I get if I do the low budget mods on my GSi?

Low budget – never going to get an ECU
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy-duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec A camshafts / vernier adjustable cam pulleys

[wynode]

Everything will apply except for #6

[TECBOY]

u would prob get 15-20kw at the engine if ur lucky

[atmoek]

for clutch & flywheel i reccomend toda high performance single awesome clutch thanx adrian

[Moya]

Medium budget – Stop @ ECU
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec B camshafts / valve springs / adjustable cam pulleys / oil pump gear / fuel pump / fuel pressure regulator / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 128~134kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)

Sorry if this has been asked, but assuming I get a stock 01 Type R, how much roughly would it be to get it up to the spec? And what kind of 1/4 time would we be looking at?

[_CiVIC_]

Medium budget – Stop @ ECU
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec B camshafts / valve springs / adjustable cam pulleys / oil pump gear / fuel pump / fuel pressure regulator / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 128~134kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)

Sorry if this has been asked, but assuming I get a stock 01 Type R, how much roughly would it be to get it up to the spec? And what kind of 1/4 time would we be looking at?

how much would something like that cost???

[Moya]

Is this thread just for DC2R, or also valid for DC2? (Teg VTI-R)

[barefootbonzai]

would it be harmful to use high compression pistons on mildily modded engine? eg.... B18C2 block, B16B head, I\H\E ???

[TODA AU]

Medium budget – Stop @ ECU
#1 – Lightweight flywheel
#2 – Heavy duty clutch
#3 – Lower final drive
#4 – Intake
#5 – Header + cat + cat-back system
#6 – Spec B camshafts / valve springs / adjustable cam pulleys / oil pump gear / fuel pump / fuel pressure regulator / ECU / dyno tuning.
Power output: 128~134kw @ wheels (Dyno dynamics – shootout)

Sorry if this has been asked, but assuming I get a stock 01 Type R, how much roughly would it be to get it up to the spec? And what kind of 1/4 time would we be looking at?

Driven well, you can expect to see 13.0~13.5 1/4 mile times
PM or email for an exact quote on us doing the work...
Ball park figure, you'd need to budget around $12K drive away using all top shelf parts fitted & tuned at a workshop.

[TODA AU]

Is this thread just for DC2R, or also valid for DC2? (Teg VTI-R)

It is basicly valid the VtiR also, with some small changes here & there.

[TODA AU]

would it be harmful to use high compression pistons on mildily modded engine? eg.... B18C2 block, B16B head, I\H\E ???

It's no problem with a properly tuned aftermarket ecu.
Do not do it with a std ecu