Car Bogging Between 2500-3500RPM - ISSUE HAS BEEN FIXED!!!!!

[tiksie]

please delete

[bennjamin]

want to swap ecu dude ? come over today if you cbf'd

[tiksie]

want to swap ecu dude ? come over today if you cbf'd

I'm at work now :( I get home at 6.30PM.

I forgot to add, the map sensor isn't physically attached to the throttle body and there is a hose going to the TB rather then being attached to it.

Is that normal ? :/ I read somewhere that the jap b16a's map sensors were mounted to the firewall rather then the throttle body itself, would this be the case ?

[bennjamin]

that might be the case. That is a jap del sol TB and probably engine. Maybe look at getting a normal TB with a normal location of a MAP sensor and go from there

I recall issues with the same setup , with lukenez car. (he had the same b16a with relocated MAP)

[tiksie]

Thanks for that Ben.

I'm assuming a normal throttle body would go straight onto the skunk2 manifold ? Never dealt with these manifolds before.

Also which TB's are interchangable ? Any B series ? Or other ones aswell ? If other ones can go straight onto it I might aswell go into the honda section at pick and payless and just rip one off a car and see if that helps.

[bennjamin]

pretty much any b d series will work for testing. But try to get a b16a one off say a b16a2 etc so the gasket is nice and lined up

[02gzm]

Motospecs (a division of Repco) sell B-series MAP sensors. The part number is CMS218. It's actually used on a few different Honda engines, i.e. some F and D series. I can't get a price for you atm though cos I went home early from work. But call them up and ask when you get a chance.

[tiksie]

Would it be my map sensor though ? Because after pulling it off and plugging it back in tight, im not getting the code #3 anymore so that got rid of the map sensor code.

[90LAN]

VAFCII hand controller.
tuning promblem ?

maybe your ecu had traction control and thats the problem now it hasnt got it in this car

some eg6's had traction control

[tiksie]

Yeah im getting the traction control error which is #36.

I don't know Lan, but I will be removing the VAFCII this weekend, is it as easy as just removing the wires from the ecu harness and resetting the ECU ? It's runny preety rich as it is with the VAFCII, probably a shit tune.

If it were to be the TCS #36 error, I don't know how that will explain the bogging ? Only occurs when engine has been warmed up, doesn't do it when it's cold.

[90LAN]

Yeah im getting the traction control error which is #36.

I don't know Lan, but I will be removing the VAFCII this weekend, is it as easy as just removing the wires from the ecu harness and resetting the ECU ? It's runny preety rich as it is with the VAFCII, probably a shit tune.

If it were to be the TCS #36 error, I don't know how that will explain the bogging ? Only occurs when engine has been warmed up, doesn't do it when it's cold.

vtec is not engaged when cold tahts why

[vinnY]

iirc you have to reconnect 2 wires after you take out the vafc harness
one is the vtec signal wire and the other was something else i can't remember right now

edit; you have to reconnect the vtec solenoid signal input/output and the pressure signal input/output as you have to intercept these two instead of just splicing

[tiksie]

vtec is not engaged when cold tahts why

So the VAFCII isn't really working as much when it's cold and only kicks in when the engine is at normal operating temperature ?

[vinnY]

vafc does nothing but intercept the signal and trick the ecu into triggering vtec at a higher or lower point
vtec won't activate when the engine is cold period

[tiksie]

So that means removing the VAFC will do nothing then ?

I've never hit vtec when engine is cold, im not dumb enough to even try that lol.

[vinnY]

shouldn't do anything really
with a hesitation i'd be looking at fuel/spark related stuff
maybe a worn dizzy rotor or something

[02gzm]

If it's happening when it's warm then x2 for a dizzy component.

[MM89]

First of all; apologies for thread hijacking.

I have a similar problem; there seems to be some hesitation along with noise
recently particularly around the 3,000-5000rpm range when half throttle
or greater is applied. If i was to apply full throttle and it works it way up
to redline, the noise disappears.

The noise still remains but the hesitation seems to have slightly disappeared.
Also vtec did not engage 2 days ago for about 10 minutes and even when
it would engage afterwards, it wasn't pulling as hard as it usually does.

The noise is definitely coming from the engine bay and sounds like metal rattling.

Any ideas?

[02gzm]

^^ Exhaust heat shield might be loose?

[tiksie]

I'll be removing the VAFC on the weekend.

Will let you guys know how I go.

How would I go about checking the dizzy without putting a different one on ?

I forgot to add that the car is running really rich, whenever I rev the car in the garage the garage door has a wet black stain on it, I'm assuming this could be a shitty tune ? It was tuned at TODA and made 105KW, I don't remember the date on the dyno print out though.

[Limbo]

did the settings change by accident?
Mine's hesitating at the moment also but i think mine is due to different ECU

[MM89]

^^ Exhaust heat shield might be loose?

that's something to check up on
but does that really explain the engine hesitation?

it feels like rpm is rising slowly and power isn't. once it has
bypassed that rev range, things seem normal. i've noticed a
slight drop in engine oil level but this might also have been due
to redlining alot to make sure vtec was working properly,
consistently and bringing the power that it usually does.

[bennjamin]

dude. Car should never run that rich. Try and swap with another compatible ECU and test already lol. Clearly the car is running like shit.

[tiksie]

Getting home by 7pm every day doesn't help :(

Gonna remove the VAFC saturday morning and see how it goes, if still running rich can I come over on the weekend ben ? For a quick swap over to see how that goes ? :D

Thanks,
Aytac

[bennjamin]

yeah no prob. But look at those wires taped up - that you showed me too. There is SOME OEM wires that are spliced on the standard loom.

[beeza]

Hey guys, I have been getting a hesitation/bog between that RPM range on B16A in EG with a JDM P30 ECU and VAFCII hand controller.

I have changed things from plugs/oil/oil filter/coolant/cleaned throttle body/tryed different leads and none of them worked.

Anyone ever had the same problem and found a solution ?

Thanks!

Yeah,I had a surging/hesitation problem that lasted 1 yr and 9 months,next to drove me nuts.

I tell ya,I know my car bloody good now :thumbsup:

Eventually learnt of the problems that were the cause:

* 02 Sensor

* Timing off

and,the biggest one of them all that clearly removed any sign what so ever of surging/bogging/hesitation:

* This! (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2476685#post2476685)

A lot of sweat,blood and tears has gone into that DIY.I'm very proud of myself for sticking through all my surging/hesitating problems and working this sh!t out.

[02gzm]

that's something to check up on
but does that really explain the engine hesitation?

it feels like rpm is rising slowly and power isn't. once it has
bypassed that rev range, things seem normal. i've noticed a
slight drop in engine oil level but this might also have been due
to redlining alot to make sure vtec was working properly,
consistently and bringing the power that it usually does.

I'd say the increased load during the hesitation is causing the heat shield to rattle. And check the TPS like Beeza said. It's possible for them to develop a voltage flat spot. It's hard to diagnose flat spots without a oscilloscope though. But resetting it correctly can't hurt.

[beeza]

Ah,a flat spot aye.

Hmmm,an oscilloscope aye :)

That's what was needed to find what terminal on the ICM is + and -

If you still have the problem after calibrating the voltage or you want to make sure all is fine with the TPS,swap in a known working one and calibrate it.Then you absolutely know it's fine.

[tiksie]

Going by this:
http://www.apexi-usa.com/content/pdf6133.pdf

I will have to remove the VAFC wires into the spliced bits and just solder/tape up the wires ?

And re-attach the VTM Signal Wire, VTEC Solenoid Signal Input/Output wires, Pressure Signal Input/Output wires so it's just going into the ECU rather then the VAFC, is that right ?

Thanks!

[vinnY]

yeah pretty much
whatever wires were broken to install the vafc, join them up together
vtc is useless to you since it's a b16 so you'll only have the other two afaik

[tiksie]

So I removed the throttle body to clean everything on it, put it back on and now I'm getting a TPS error :( I'm not getting any voltage from the TPS and the engine light stays on and is running rich as anything! Only getting the TPS error, I thoght it was because i removed the VAFC, but the vafc was stil on when i put the throttle body back on after cleaning the TPS/IACV, but I can't adjust it as nothing is coming onto the multimetre! :(

[02gzm]

check to see you didn't plug the map sensor wiring into the tps and vice verca

[tiksie]

The TPS plug is much shorter, so that wasn't the case!

Going ben's tommorow to pickup a ecu, see if that fixes anything.

[02gzm]

if it doesn't work tomorrow, grab a pinout diagram and check for continuity in the tps wiring. Could have a degraded circuit that broke when you unplugged it and moved the wiring around. Happened to me once

[tiksie]

Thanks for the on-going support 02gzm, but how will I go about checking for continuity ?

Thanks!

[B18cEG]

Have you checked the tps positioning????? this is a major thing alot of ppl miss, go on to the sensor check (i think) on ur vafc and tell us what your voltage is a closed throttle and full throttle (ignition only obviously)

[tiksie]

0 voltage, im going by that thread that beeza made, im sticking the probes into the wires while its conected to the throttle body and i got no voltage at all :/

[02gzm]

Thanks for the on-going support 02gzm, but how will I go about checking for continuity ?

Thanks!

It's just a fancy way of saying make sure the circuit is flowing electricity fine :p
I.E. connect the multimeter at the ecu end and the sensor end to make sure there's no breaks in the wiring.

[tiksie]

Thought so :p

Do you know what colours I would have to look at ? I was going to do that yesterday but then I look at the ecu harness and said "**** that" LOL, I didn't know which colours they were and if they were the same as the one on the sensor end.

[02gzm]

Do the voltage tests in ECU-MAN's DIY (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67309).

Pinout diagram is here. (http://b16a2.kicks-ass.net/diy/pgmfi/ecu/PGMFI-pins1-2.jpg) Yours is the OBD1 diagram.

[tiksie]

Getting 5V on C19 and C22 on both sides (TPS plug & ecu) but I'm getting 1V on C11 on ECU side AND on TPS plug side.

New ECU in order ?

[tiksie]

Okay guys a bit of a update, fiddling around with everything.

So I ran a new C11 wire to the TPS plug from the ECU.

on closed throttle I am getting 0.01V and at wide open throttle I'm getting 3.29V, you guys think this would be a tps issue ? When I adjust the actual TPS rather then the throttle the voltage doesn't rise, but when I open the throttle from the actual throttle it goes up to 3.29V on both sides, TPS plug side and also the ECU side and closed throttle is 0.01V

Any input would be great!

[B18cEG]

ok this is not cool lol, sorry but im a bit confuse with wat ur doing???? try this, put one side of the multimeter on ground or wedge on negative terminal and the other probe onto the middle wire going to the tps, closed throttle u should get about 0.46v open throttle about 4.5-4.6v. most importantly u need to adjust ur tps so that it is reading about .46v at closed and when u get that if the open throttle reading is too low maybe u need to slightly adjust ut throttle cable.

Let me know wat u get


************never mind what i wrote about testing at tps side if its easier at the ecu side since ur getting the same reading

[tiksie]

Hi B18c!

I just told you what I get lol, 0.01V at closed throttle and 3.29V at wide open throttle.

Wether I adjust the TPS or not, it doesn't make a difference with the voltage values!

EDIT: I'm trying to get rid of the TPS error right now!

[VT3C]

reply to FIRST POST:

i've just bought a AUS Del Sol (B16A2) and swapped to a JDM P30 ECU and i've been having mega bog issues when taking off (normally).. The JDM ECU gives me a Code 20 and 23 (ELD and Knock Sensor) thanks to AUS spec hondas not having a knock sensor nor ELD.

Years ago when i did my conversion (AUS EG5 to JDM B16A) I had all these issues and more. I ended up installing a JDM Fuse Box with ELD etc and it got rid of the bogging down I think.

Advice given to me from very knowledgable and experienced people on this forum was that the ELD wouldnt affect anything. My own research into the fucntionality of the ELD would suggest that it DOES havbe the ability to affect the running of the engine. When current drain exceeds current produced the ELD is meant to operate the IACV to raise the revs to compensate... now to me.. if there is no ELD operational and there is a high current load, the load on the engine is increased however the engine speed (revs) are not raised to compensate - which could cause an initial bogging sensation... less current to the ignition etc - so lik ewhen you UPGRADE your spark-leads etc - but the opposite...??

Also have you checked your ignition timing ? it creates a bogging down when overly advanced also - and will have a good topend though.. my Del Sol when i bought it had it's ignition timing fully RETARDED which gave me great low down toque however abolutely nothing above 4,500 RPM....

[tiksie]

Interesting VT3C, thanks for the input.

AFAIK from the previous owner, I was told that the timing is untouched stock standard.

I will have a look into the JDM fusebox, are they hard to come by ? And is it hard installing one ? Once I get rid of this TPS issue and if it still does it, I Will look into that!

Thanks for that.

Aytac

[ewendc2r]

I am pretty sure its TPS related -- Need to go through the excercise of recalibrating it to the default range and check your ecu OBD output to match.. I gotta do the same thing and thats the last thing it can be, and makes the most sense really. Its where the most wear will happen because you spend most of your time around that throttle position..

anyhow -- i'm doing it next weekend.. see how it turns out.

[B18cEG]

Get another tps, when u turn the tps to adjust is should deff change voltage, seems like it doesnt get a reading low down like when u adjust but when u push throttle it starts to go up, is the tps moving full way when u adjust?

I think that the tps is DEFINATLY the problem, you wouldnt believe how much of a difference in response it makes when perfectly adjusted.

[tiksie]

Hi b18cEG,

Yeah I will be getting a TPS tommorow, the thing with the TPS now, on closed throttle it stays on 0.01V - 0.03V, but when I slowly open the throttle from the throttle body (not the TPS) it jumps its way up to 3.29V, as in it jumps around volts and ends up at 3.29V

Will tell you guys how I go tommorow, thanks for the input.

[02gzm]

If voltage is jumping around and there's resistance in the line then either the TPS is dead or there's faulty wiring. Since you said you're getting the correct voltage through the ground and reference wires and you replaced the TPS signal wiring, the ECU would be the next target to look at if the new TPS doesn't work either.

But the "jumping" does just sound like multiple flat spots in a dying TPS

[tiksie]

Yeah I will slowly open the throttle and it will jump around like crazy and when it's WOT it goes to 3.29, but when it's closed throttle I get the 0.01V and at the same time when I turn the TPS it doesn't rise, but when I turn the throttle it does rise, so I can't turn the TPS to get the 0.45V which is needed at closed throttle :( It just stays at 0.01V

Yeah I will be getting a known working TPS tonight, will see how that goes, if not, will test another ECU out.

[tiksie]

Okay guys got a update!

Thanks to Ben I got a throttle body with TPS and map sensor on it since he was too lazy to remove the TPS haha.

I put it in, and wadda-ya-know! I'm getting 0.51 closed throttle, and 4.53 wide open throttle, so it's off by 0.03V AFAIK, would this make a big difference ? Or should I just install it like that anyway ?

Thanks for the support guys!

[bennjamin]

The .03 discrepency is neglible and entirely acceptable for a oem used part , chuck it on and test it !

[02gzm]

If it's screwed on you may as well adjust it to get rid of that 0.03 voltage difference. If it's riveted on then it's fine to just leave it

[beeza]

Set it exact Tiksie,you will be suprised the difference it makes!

Follow the DIY,a lot of blood,sweat and tears went into that :)

Great to hear mate!!

[tiksie]

Everything has been put on and running again, car still bogs but not as much as before, and I got rid of the TPS code so now it's okay.

The only code im getting now is the Code 20 ELD, going by what V73C said, it does make sense that there will be load but won't be detected obviously with no ELD as I don't have a JDM fuse box.

Ok, next thing to do is send my ecu to ECU-MAN and get him to get rid of the Code 20 haha, trial and error!!!

Thanks alot for the input guys.

[beeza]

Have U set your pedal/throttle cable/TPS up correctly via the TPS DIY?

[B18cEG]

if u can set it to exact .46v that would be best, and yes 4.5v WOT is a good result.

nice work ;)

[beeza]

if u can set it to exact .46v that would be best, and yes 4.5v WOT is a good result.

nice work ;)

I FINIALLY!! figured it out and set it correctly! :eek: AWESOME!!

It impresses me each and every day!! :thumbsup:

This is A MUST DO!!!

[bennjamin]

I FINIALLY!! figured it out and set it correctly! :eek: AWESOME!!

It impresses me each and every day!! :thumbsup:

This is A MUST DO!!!

erm. Its set like that from factory lol .

[B18cEG]

erm. Its set like that from factory lol .

Over time it changes, being knoked by tools or while engine is being dropped in, all it takes is .1mm movement and its out

[beeza]

I like to help other's.

[tiksie]

FINALLY!

Everything has been fixed.

It wasn't the map sensor, it wasn't the TPS sensor, it wasn't the IACV, it wasn't the ELD error code, it wasn't o2 sensor, it wasn't any bad grounds, it wasn't the wrong TPS voltage which was off by a few .0 volts, it was............
























THE ****ING TIMING!

It was too retarded, so I centred it for now, don't have a timing light, so it's dead centre right now with the head, car is running soooooooo good!

Thanks alot for all the input from everyone, ESPECIALLY Ben!!!!!! If it wasn't for him I wouldn't know how to troubleshoot everything.

Thanks heaps guys!

[beeza]

All too familiar Tiksie!!

My timing was at 2 deg BTDC for TOO LONG.It should be at 12 deg BTDC!

What a difference aye!?