View Full Version : Semi auto euro is faster. ;) (experimenting)
well i went out for a drive today. I approached a long stretched straight wide road. I stopped my car as i approached, looked around notin coming or behind me. I switched it to semi auto and accelerated full on in first gear. I accelerated until 80 km/hour. And noticing my rpm metre needle was 1000 short of the redline and changed the gear to 2nd and switched back to auto. From what i noticed this is faster than the automatic trans. :confused: am i illusional or what? i dont know. But is it good for the car to rev so hard i mean from hwat i described??? does it reck the car or anything (i have little or no knowldge on car engines)??
Hope you guys have a good weekend.
Type R Positive
19-11-2004, 08:35 PM
this is what my commodore mates do. But rev that sucker past redline! You are missing out on alot of power.
sugapopcandy
19-11-2004, 09:53 PM
How is that faster than leaving it fully automatic mode? It's usually slower in sequential mode since you either hit the rev limit then shift or shift too early, both makes you slower from 0 - 100km/h than leaving it in automatic mode with WOT.
EuroAccord13
19-11-2004, 10:03 PM
Actually, some cars go faster with tip shifting, I'm not sure about the euro though, have you got some measuring device to help back up your claim? :)
CHEERS
aaronng
19-11-2004, 11:12 PM
Faiz, once your car is fully run in and serviced, try out that last 1000rpm. It'll be fun. Be careful where you do it though.
Faiz, once your car is fully run in and serviced, try out that last 1000rpm. It'll be fun. Be careful where you do it though.
my car is serviced and all (10 000km) I dont know know if your being sarcastic? 10 000 rpm???? That would reck the engine wouldnt it? :confused: I am not sure, i just hope you guys are not lieing to me and making go and do a stupid thing. The reason i said the semi auto was faster because in auto trans the car reaches 80 in 3rd gear. I will do 0-100 times if i get the oppurtunity and see what the results are. I will be postng results soon.
euro77
20-11-2004, 10:12 AM
my car is serviced and all (10 000km) I dont know know if your being sarcastic? 10 000 rpm???? That would reck the engine wouldnt it? :confused: I am not sure, i just hope you guys are not lieing to me and making go and do a stupid thing. The reason i said the semi auto was faster because in auto trans the car reaches 80 in 3rd gear. I will do 0-100 times if i get the oppurtunity and see what the results are. I will be postng results soon.
he said to try out the last 1000rpm, not saying to rev your engine to 10000rpm, you can't anyway, it will cut off at 7300 rpm.
He meant rev it to 7000 rpm (1000 more from your last try at 6000 rpm).
yeah, make sure you be careful where you do it, make sure there will be no cars and pedestrians going to be in your way.
my car is serviced and all (10 000km) I dont know know if your being sarcastic? 10 000 rpm???? That would reck the engine wouldnt it? :confused: I am not sure, i just hope you guys are not lieing to me and making go and do a stupid thing. The reason i said the semi auto was faster because in auto trans the car reaches 80 in 3rd gear. I will do 0-100 times if i get the oppurtunity and see what the results are. I will be postng results soon.
Your car has 10,000k on the odo and you have never hit 7000rpm? My goodness - running through 6000-7000rpm in the Euro is one of the reasons I love this car... You are not going to wreck your car by hitting 7000rpm - just make sure the car is warmed up and be prepared for the addiction that follows. It is like a sickness. I am struck with the disease and need my daily dose of 7000rpm. :D Anyone else have this disease?
well if you say so, i will definetly try it out. Whats so special about it though? Sudden boost of torque i am guessing because of the vtecs nature?
sugapopcandy
20-11-2004, 11:46 AM
The reason i said the semi auto was faster because in auto trans the car reaches 80 in 3rd gear. I will do 0-100 times if i get the oppurtunity and see what the results are. I will be postng results soon.
You're telling me you redlined 1st gear, 2nd gear and when the auto trans shifted into 3rd you are only at 80km/h ?!?!
Did you push the pedal all the way down to the floor at all or did you just press it half way and expect it to rev hard?
No wonder you think semi auto is faster, you didn't even rev up to redline in full automatic mode, and when in semi auto it doesn't shift up for you unless you do it yourself, thus you feel the urge to push forward when you are in 1st gear.
Type R Positive
20-11-2004, 12:52 PM
Your car has 10,000k on the odo and you have never hit 7000rpm? My goodness - running through 6000-7000rpm in the Euro is one of the reasons I love this car... You are not going to wreck your car by hitting 7000rpm - just make sure the car is warmed up and be prepared for the addiction that follows. It is like a sickness. I am struck with the disease and need my daily dose of 7000rpm. :D Anyone else have this disease? Right on brother!!! My missus gets the shits when I drive around on redline but she is coming around (she is starting to do it :)).
I love being able to do 100km/h in 2nd and 150km/h in 3rd. I think the flywheel must be a bit heavy because the engine breaking is not that good at all, too smooth!
Right on brother!!! My missus gets the shits when I drive around on redline but she is coming around (she is starting to do it :)).
I love being able to do 100km/h in 2nd and 150km/h in 3rd. I think the flywheel must be a bit heavy because the engine breaking is not that good at all, too smooth!
Faiz doesn't know what he is missing :D - there is also no way 3rd gear was 80k/ph in the auto - he must have been gentle on the gas and it changed to 3rd. I don't have the auto but according to Wheels magazine the auto in 1st maxes out at 69kph (7100rpm) and 121k/ph in 2nd gear (7100rpm)...
That is a real shame as auto Euro drivers will mainly experience 6000rpm in 1st gear -- unless they drive well over 100kph which is usually over the speed limit in Australia.
At least with the 6mt we can experience 6000rpm in both 1st and 2nd and still be legal.
For the manual - Type R positive - I am fairly sure 3rd gear max is around 140k/ph not 150km/h.
Type R Positive
20-11-2004, 01:41 PM
yeah man, 140 ~ 150 in 3rd.
It is definately over 140, I did this just the other night when a commodore with 2 young lads wanted to play when I slowly over took them (normal driving). I caught them as they kicked the boot in so I dropped from 6th to 3rd (4th too slow to get on vtec), waved to them and blew them away.
My girly is one of those people that has never seen redline. As much as I tell her it is ok and designed to do it, she thinks it will wreck it so she drives sedately. Dissapointing!
Do you find 1st gear way too short? It is sorta useless. It is too short to change down when attacking corners and when you can do 100km/h in second, I find my self going in a bit hot and on the brake alot more than I feel I have to. Need a new flywheel!
VirIIx
20-11-2004, 03:24 PM
I have to say... I wish we had more than 7000rpm.. i keep hitting it too fast and without knowing too, it's just when you're up there you just want it to keep climbing higher :) by the time i shift into 3rd i'm already at 130km :s oh well :p
yeh i am a bit gentle with my euro. It isnt the afstest car in the world but when you push it down it goes well. (tries what you guys had said.) Why are the auto euro drivers cant experience 7000 rpm? I saw above when reading. An havnt still meaured the acceleration time yet.
aaronng
20-11-2004, 07:45 PM
Hi Faiz, no, I'm not pulling your leg about that last 1000rpm (6000-7000rpm). Put your foot to the FLOOR, watch it climb, at 6000 when you think it is almost out of power, it then gets a little bump and goes 6000-7000 faster than when it did 5000-6000. Then you shift to 2nd. Of course, you'll be over the speed limit then. Hehe. In 1st gear, I reckon you'll be faster than the auto V6 commodores and falcons. And don't do this when cops are around. I don't think they like a car at 7000rpm going past them. Hehe
Regular auto drivers leave it in D, and D will shift for you at well below 6000rpm so that it saves fuel and drives smoother. In semi-auto mode, you get to do what manual does, just that it all goes through the torque convertor so you lose a bit more power than a manual. A tip is that the manual Euro's 1st gear is very short, so your semi-auto can actually be faster in first gear because you do not need to shift up to 80km/h while the manual will have to shift to 2nd.
aaronng
20-11-2004, 07:49 PM
Do you find 1st gear way too short? It is sorta useless. It is too short to change down when attacking corners and when you can do 100km/h in second, I find my self going in a bit hot and on the brake alot more than I feel I have to. Need a new flywheel!
Yup, at traffic lights, I find 2.2 litre auto camrys leaving me behind because I have to shift. To keep up I have to apply half throttle and rev to 4000rpm before shifting into 2nd. Not too nice because everyone else thinks you are trying to race. Hehe.
...... A tip is that the manual Euro's 1st gear is very short, so your semi-auto can actually be faster in first gear because you do not need to shift up to 80km/h while the manual will have to shift to 2nd.
aaronng - are you being serious man? :confused: I am confused by this logic. How does a long 1st gear ratio in the auto (top speed 69k/ph) beat the short ratio 6mt?
The time it takes to shift the 6mt from 1st to 2nd is bugger all time for a good driver. The short ratio gearbox means the 6mt can access the higher rev range earlier - this quite clearly is where the bulk of the power is (ie 5000rpm+). The 6mt is also lighter and has more power at the wheels. By the time the auto is at the top of 1st gear - I can assure you the 6mt is in front by a noticeable margin and pulling away in 2nd gear...
Yup, at traffic lights, I find 2.2 litre auto camrys leaving me behind because I have to shift. To keep up I have to apply half throttle and rev to 4000rpm before shifting into 2nd. Not too nice because everyone else thinks you are trying to race. Hehe.
So you are saying you need to rev to 4000rpm at 50% throttle to keep up with an auto 2.2 Camry - what is so strange about that? 4000rpm shift change and 50% throttle is nothing in the Euro and is how my grandmother drives doing grocery shopping. People think you are racing by changing gears at 4000rpm with 50% throttle? I don't think so.
Next time - take off the cardigan first - then apply full throttle and rev the 6mt to 7000rpm in 1st - where is the Camry now - 20+ metres behind you? Problem solved. :D
aaronng
21-11-2004, 12:45 AM
aaronng - are you being serious man? :confused: I am confused by this logic. How does a long 1st gear ratio in the auto (top speed 69k/ph) beat the short ratio 6mt?
The time it takes to shift the 6mt from 1st to 2nd is bugger all time for a good driver. The short ratio gearbox means the 6mt can access the higher rev range earlier - this quite clearly is where the bulk of the power is (ie 5000rpm+). The 6mt is also lighter and has more power at the wheels. By the time the auto is at the top of 1st gear - I can assure you the 6mt is in front by a noticeable margin and pulling away in 2nd gear...
My logic was broken when I wrote this.... Haha. Okok, let me clear up my messy post. Man, what was I thinking when I wrote that.
What I meant to say was: When driving normally (normal is usually about 1/4 throttle), the AT will get ahead of the MT.
Of course when driving at full throttle, the MT gets ahead since you will be shifting to 2nd without waiting for the revs to drop (and get nice wheel chirping)
aaronng
21-11-2004, 12:46 AM
So you are saying you need to rev to 4000rpm at 50% throttle to keep up with an auto 2.2 Camry - what is so strange about that? 4000rpm is nothing in the Euro and people don't think you are racing changing gears at 4000rpm.
If you apply full throttle and rev the 6mt to 7000rpm in 1st - where is the Camry now - 30 metres behind you? Problem solved.
When driving sedately, hmm, imagine your parents in the back seat and that is the style you are driving. The 6mt's 1st gear is short that you have to change early so as not to frighten your elderly passengers. Hehe. The camry will get ahead. Once in 2nd, I find that I catch up with the camry.
Full throttle, that Commodore V6 is behind me too. Hehehehehe.... I'm not saying Euro 6mt is slow. I'm saying that it is fast when you want it to be fast. But when driving sedately, it is slower than an equivalent car due to the short 1st. Of course, use more throttle and it is faster.
My logic was broken when I wrote this.... Haha. Okok, let me clear up my messy post. Man, what was I thinking when I wrote that.
What I meant to say was: When driving normally (normal is usually about 1/4 throttle), the AT will get ahead of the MT.
Of course when driving at full throttle, the MT gets ahead since you will be shifting to 2nd without waiting for the revs to drop (and get nice wheel chirping)
Dude - still a weird post ! :D You are comparing the speed of MT and AT based on throttle position? - ie 25% throttle would mean this result, etc, etc. You are freaking me out and probably confusing Faiz! The last thing we need is Faiz thinking his AT is faster than the 6MT. :D
coladuna
21-11-2004, 01:11 AM
But when driving sedately, it is slower than an equivalent car due to the short 1st. Of course, use more throttle and it is faster.
I know exactly what you are talking about. The rev rises so quickly when you are in first, so when you are driving casually, short 1st gear sort of makes you feel slow because you have to change into 2nd in no time, unless you take the revs into higher ranges (which i don't like to do too often as it uses more fuel :p).
Slugoid
21-11-2004, 03:45 AM
Auto does hit 7K rpm. Just shift (with hand) when you reach a little over 6.5K rpm, and it will shift (engine) at around 7K rpm, cos of the delay.
Too bad that by the time I reach 2nd, it's already past 100km/h...
Type R Positive
21-11-2004, 04:33 AM
Dude - still a weird post ! :D You are comparing the speed of MT and AT based on throttle position? - ie 25% throttle would mean this result, etc, etc. You are freaking me out and probably confusing Faiz! The last thing we need is Faiz thinking his AT is faster than the 6MT. :DHehe!
1st gear is so short on the manual to get you up and driving on VTEC really easy where all the engines power is, so 2nd gear and so forth are on VTEC when you sink the boot in.
Hey Faiz,
I don't know how or where you think that auto is quicker than manual in "normal" driving. What are the conditions for the basis of your assumption? Wouldn't they be both the same since you are driving normally? My idea if normal driving is going to 4K - 5K rpm in first and second than change to 3rd at which point I slow back down to 60.
Pum[Z]
21-11-2004, 04:41 AM
Muhahahhaha...
Yess we don't want to confuse Faiz....
1st gear is short in the manual because its six speed... I don't have a prb having it short it reaches 7000rpm pretty quickly then the fun starts all over again in second gear....
Auto may seem faster taking off a traffic light but give it a bit of a stick and the auto will lag over a manual.....
aaronng
21-11-2004, 10:00 AM
Dude - still a weird post ! :D You are comparing the speed of MT and AT based on throttle position? - ie 25% throttle would mean this result, etc, etc. You are freaking me out and probably confusing Faiz! The last thing we need is Faiz thinking his AT is faster than the 6MT. :D
Heheh... because when normally driving, I don't usually depress the throttle above half, because I get higher fuel consumption, the passengers get pushed into the seats and then you shift into 2nd they lurch forward a bit when you press the clutch, they ask are all MT cars like this (having never sat in MT) and all those other issues. I shift at 3000rpm in 1st. Of course when I am just with my gf, I shift at 4000rpm. When I am alone, 7000rpm ;)
EuroAccord13
21-11-2004, 02:07 PM
The passengers get pushed into the seats and then you shift into 2nd they lurch forward a bit when you press the clutch, they ask are all MT cars like this (having never sat in MT) and all those other issues. I shift at 3000rpm in 1st. Of course when I am just with my gf, I shift at 4000rpm. When I am alone, 7000rpm ;)
That's because you haven't mastered the art of shifting a manual smoothly :wave: :D ;) Heeheeheehee.....
VirIIx
21-11-2004, 03:04 PM
lol... shifting from 4th to 2nd smoothly is always an impressive stunt imo :rolleyes:
Catcha
21-11-2004, 04:03 PM
the passengers get pushed into the seats and then you shift into 2nd they lurch forward a bit when you press the clutch, they ask are all MT cars like this (having never sat in MT) and all those other issues.
All maual cars you lurch forward a bit whether it be more or less depends on your driving :D especially when you gunning it through the rev range
aaronng
21-11-2004, 05:02 PM
That's because you haven't mastered the art of shifting a manual smoothly :wave: :D ;) Heeheeheehee.....
Ok, here's what I do: Rev up to 4000rpm in 1st, as soon as I release the gas and press the clutch, the passengers get thrown forward because of the decrease in acceleration once the clutch is disengaged. Note that I haven't even begun to shift into 2nd yet. Is there a secret technique to overcome this? :confused: As far as I know, this is a characteristic of manual tranmission cars since they do not have a torque convertor.
Type R Positive
21-11-2004, 05:31 PM
Ok, here's what I do: Rev up to 4000rpm in 1st, as soon as I release the gas and press the clutch, the passengers get thrown forward because of the decrease in acceleration once the clutch is disengaged. Note that I haven't even begun to shift into 2nd yet. Is there a secret technique to overcome this? :confused: As far as I know, this is a characteristic of manual tranmission cars since they do not have a torque convertor. Just practice man. Be smoother on the throttle and clutch. Easy clutch take ups mean smooth gear changes. It sounds like you are too harsh on the clutch.
I find 1st gear is really touchy when driving sedately though, because of the instant responce of the drive by wire throttle. The other gears I find are smoother due to momentum and they have some weight to pull.
Practice at lower rpm's (~2500rpm) changing smoothly. It will make it heaps easy because of the lack of response at low rpm's.
coladuna
21-11-2004, 08:06 PM
Just practice man. Be smoother on the throttle and clutch. Easy clutch take ups mean smooth gear changes. It sounds like you are too harsh on the clutch.
Got nothing to do with being too harsh on the clutch.
Depressing clutch gently or hard doesn't make any difference.
It's inevitable for your passengers to get thrown forward a bit because when you release the throttle, you don't have any acceleration until you change into second gear.
Obviously, this will be the worst in 1st gear as the acceleration is very rapid compared to other gears.
No matter how many times you practice, it'll always happen unless you let go of the throttle very very slowly, which is a stupid thing to do as well because you rev high to go fast and releasing the throttle slowly will take up too much time.
sugapopcandy
21-11-2004, 08:23 PM
Funny thing about it all is, when I ask the passenger if they felt urging forward then back into the seat, they seem to not notice it at all, while I can see them going forward and back.
Oh don't forget you'll be riding the clutch if you let it out too slowly, which aint too good for it.
Catcha
21-11-2004, 08:48 PM
you can have the smoothest changes going hard but i still guarantee you see you passanger move forward slighty..
Type R Positive
21-11-2004, 10:17 PM
Ok, I will rephrase.
If you are smooth at gear changes, the sensation of slowing down will be greatly reduced by smooth engagement and acceleration in next gear.
Easy clutch take ups mean smooth gear changes.
Don't be harsh on the clutch (take-up's).
Nothing to do with how quickly you step on clutch.
aaronng
21-11-2004, 11:34 PM
Just practice man. Be smoother on the throttle and clutch. Easy clutch take ups mean smooth gear changes. It sounds like you are too harsh on the clutch.
I find 1st gear is really touchy when driving sedately though, because of the instant responce of the drive by wire throttle. The other gears I find are smoother due to momentum and they have some weight to pull.
Practice at lower rpm's (~2500rpm) changing smoothly. It will make it heaps easy because of the lack of response at low rpm's.
The undesired effect comes when at 4000rpm I am in the process of pressing DOWN the clutch. I am still in 1st gear and haven't changed to 2nd yet.
At 2500rpm, I can shift 1-2 without the passengers excessively bobbing forward. Of course, shifting at 2500rpm means that Camry is ahead of me already. :)
aaronng
21-11-2004, 11:37 PM
Funny thing about it all is, when I ask the passenger if they felt urging forward then back into the seat, they seem to not notice it at all, while I can see them going forward and back.
Oh don't forget you'll be riding the clutch if you let it out too slowly, which aint too good for it.
They don't notice? Hmm, at 2500rpm shifts, I do it fast and smooth, I can see them but they don't complain. It's only when doing 1/2 throttle up to 4000rpm and then pressing the clutch down is when they notice it. :mad:
aaronng
21-11-2004, 11:40 PM
Ok, I will rephrase.
If you are smooth at gear changes, the sensation of slowing down will be greatly reduced by smooth engagement and acceleration in next gear.
Easy clutch take ups mean smooth gear changes.
Don't be harsh on the clutch (take-up's).
Nothing to do with how quickly you step on clutch.
There is still that point in time where you press the clutch and have yet to get into 2nd and release the clutch. This is my problem. Because the acceleration in 1st up to 4000rpm was strong, the moment I press the clutch, the passengers go forwards.
My problem in not with the take up of the clutch pedal. It is with the change in acceleration at 1/2 throttle 4000rpm when I press the pedal DOWN (clutch disengagement) when doing the 1-2 shift.
Like I said previously, if I shift from 1st to 2nd at 2500-3000rpm without hard acceleration, it is smooth as silk.
The only way I have tried that can reduce this problem is accelerate 1/2 throttle up to 3500rpm so I have hard acceleration, then ease off the throttle a tiny bit for the 3500-4000rpm range and then shift so that the change in acceleration when I press the clutch is not as drastic.
Type R Positive
22-11-2004, 03:30 AM
Righto, I don't think there is any solution except tell your friends to shut up or walk :p
Either that or just drive around in second.
aaronng
22-11-2004, 10:33 AM
Righto, I don't think there is any solution except tell your friends to shut up or walk :p
Either that or just drive around in second.
Hehehehe :D I'll just give them a taste of 7000rpm, that will keep them quiet.
This whole thread has just confused me!!
MiSloVic
22-11-2004, 01:25 PM
There is still that point in time where you press the clutch and have yet to get into 2nd and release the clutch. This is my problem. Because the acceleration in 1st up to 4000rpm was strong, the moment I press the clutch, the passengers go forwards.
My problem in not with the take up of the clutch pedal. It is with the change in acceleration at 1/2 throttle 4000rpm when I press the pedal DOWN (clutch disengagement) when doing the 1-2 shift.
Like I said previously, if I shift from 1st to 2nd at 2500-3000rpm without hard acceleration, it is smooth as silk.
The only way I have tried that can reduce this problem is accelerate 1/2 throttle up to 3500rpm so I have hard acceleration, then ease off the throttle a tiny bit for the 3500-4000rpm range and then shift so that the change in acceleration when I press the clutch is not as drastic.
you can try to shift after 4000rpm, given that the engine develops its peak torque at 4500rpm. which mean, you can use full throttle till 4000rpm, then reduce the throttle a bit and upshift.
but like what the other forumers said, the pax will still get a sensation of decceleration.
aaronng
22-11-2004, 01:49 PM
This whole thread has just confused me!!
Sorry for hijacking your thread, Faiz. My opinion is that using semi-auto is faster than "D" mode because you can use the higher revs more.
i will be confirming that soon arrong ;) i will state my results then.
viperx
22-11-2004, 10:26 PM
and when did higher revs mean faster??
you just want to get high enough revs so that when you go up a gear you're still using as much of the peak of the powerband as possible (i.e. maximising the area under the power/rpm curve)
That is why one should shift gear past the "peak power" RPM - because you can get more area. Not because it gives you more "power" at a static RPM but because when you change gear between two RPM points which gains the overall best power at the rpms that u will use
Type R Positive
22-11-2004, 11:10 PM
and when did higher revs mean faster?? I have never seen low revs mean faster, especially in a honda.
Euro goes best between 6k and rev limiter, so higher revs mean faster :p
jtboo
23-11-2004, 03:44 PM
I have to agree that the euro is quicker in the semi auto mode through personal experience. And yes you can get to 100km/h in 2nd even in the semi auto Euro.
sugapopcandy
23-11-2004, 03:50 PM
I have to agree that the euro is quicker in the semi auto mode through personal experience. And yes you can get to 100km/h in 2nd even in the semi auto Euro.
If you accelerate from 0 - 100km/h using full auto and semi auto, I think you find they should be the same, if not semi auto slower being, you wasted precious time judging when to shift up.
Going through twisties then definately semi auto being the faster out of the two.
jtboo
23-11-2004, 04:02 PM
Depends on how use you are to shifting manually (semi-auto).
sugapopcandy
23-11-2004, 04:47 PM
Depends on how use you are to shifting manually (semi-auto).But in the end it's not going to be any faster than leaving it in full auto mode, unless the gear ratios magically changes.
Type R Positive
23-11-2004, 04:58 PM
just because the full auto mode changes gears for you doesn't mean it is faster. I don't know why you think it would.
sugapopcandy
23-11-2004, 05:06 PM
just because the full auto mode changes gears for you doesn't mean it is faster. I don't know why you think it would.Because the gear changes is done at the same speed, if you push the pedal down to the floor, the semi auto mode and full auto mode will accelerate the same. Wont go any faster, only real advantage is from going through twisties.
It's a slushbox, not a SMGII used on the M3. Besides, I never said full auto is faster, I said it should be the same, regardless of semi auto or manual if under full acceleration.
Type R Positive
23-11-2004, 05:30 PM
full auto mode won't go to redline. I am not sure but I think that full auto is not optimised for maximum acceleration when you hold your foot flat. Sure it goes harder, but can be improved. The auto is set up for saving fuel.
sugapopcandy
23-11-2004, 06:07 PM
I'm sure it should shift when it reaches 6500rpms that extra 500rpms does little IMO.
I highly doubt they will have two configurations for the auto trans on the euro, all it seems to do when you go into sports shift mode is that the trans won't shift up for you when you reach redline.
Hell it's got fly by wire, how can it not be optimised for maximum acceleration when needed. It's smarter than the average auto trans that's for sure.
Ok i got some results. Now lets all calm down and take deep breath. The full auto only revs up to 6500 rpm and the changes gear to second. Theres only 500 rpm left until the redline so i doubt there will be sigificant increase in speed during that extra 500 rpm. I tried putting foot down in the auto from stop, like i said it reved upto 6500 rpm and shifted to second, it was i guess up to early 70 km/hour. So there you have it they are both basically the same.
Ok i got some results. Now lets all calm down and take deep breath. The full auto only revs up to 6500 rpm and the changes gear to second. Theres only 500 rpm left until the redline so i doubt there will be sigificant increase in speed during that extra 500 rpm. I tried putting foot down in the auto from stop, like i said it reved upto 6500 rpm and shifted to second, it was i guess up to early 70 km/hour. So there you have it they are both basically the same.
500rpm of VTEC between 6500 and 7000rpm increases the Euro's speed more than you'd think. In the manual it is (off the top of my head) the difference between changing to 3rd at 90kph instead of 100kph.
I thought someone else said if you use sport shift it can change gears at 7000rpm if you press the lever at 6500rpm? Give that a go Faiz and report back to us.
I am so glad I didn't get the auto. :D
sugapopcandy
23-11-2004, 07:57 PM
500rpm of VTEC between 6500 and 7000rpm increases the Euro's speed more than you'd think. In the manual it is (off the top of my head) the difference between changing to 3rd at 90kph instead of 100kph.Sure at 3rd gear the difference might be noticed, but IMO 1st gear it is debatable if it's any useful.
Heh don't mind me being negative, i'm just bored.
Sure at 3rd gear the difference might be noticed, but IMO 1st gear it is debatable if it's any useful.
Peak power is not developed until 6800rpm and I believe redline is technically 7100rpm (although on the dial it looks like 7000rpm). I'll take anything up to redline thank you very much.. :D
I have to agree that the euro is quicker in the semi auto mode through personal experience. And yes you can get to 100km/h in 2nd even in the semi auto Euro.
yes - but you don't hit 6000rpm VTEC in 2nd until way over 100km/h ay... that is the problem with the ratios in the auto.
timmy_12
23-11-2004, 09:45 PM
i don't know if anyone has mentioned this as yet but in manual mode the car will change up gears it's self if the revs get too high this is to protect the engine.
My last car was a sirion gtvi with steershift and in manual mode it was slower than auto mode.
I haven't fully tried out the euro yet but the best way to find out is let the car get to about 6000 revs with your foot flat and at 6000 push it into auto mode and you should feel more or less power but i think it is pretty much even in both modes.
Type R Positive
24-11-2004, 12:26 AM
Heh don't mind me being negative, i'm just bored. Hehe. Me too!
in manual mode the car will change up gears it's self if the revs get too high
Ahhhh ... no. Have you even driven an auto Euro? In manual mode it will not shift up a gear automatically, but rather it will just sit in the gear you've selected and bounce off the rev limiter. Maybe your Sirion did auto-shift up even in manual mode, but not all cars/gearboxes are the same.
The gearbox is just an automatic not an SMG, so when in manual mode it is just manually selecting the same gears in the gearbox that it uses in automatic mode. Same gear ratios, still working through the same power-sapping torque converter. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the auto gearbox to make more/less power in manual vs auto mode.
However it may be faster in manual mode but only because it won't automatically shift up just after 6,500rpm like it does even at WOT in auto mode. I have found that tapping the gear lever up at 6,800rpm in manual mode will result in the gear eventually changing at 7,100/7,200rpm without bouncing off the rev limiter. Whether this is actually faster or not, I'm not sure.
Rod
aaronng
24-11-2004, 10:46 AM
I reckon if you shift at 7100rpm, it will be faster than shifting at 6500rpm. Because in that 600rpm, you have a higher gear ratio, and hence a high torque multiplication factor. Faiz, did you time your 0-100km/h runs?
Read the TSX/Euro technical document. If you let it bounce off the limiter for extended periods, it says that the autobox will shift up.
Shifting at 7,100rpm will result in it bouncing off the rev limiter and then actually changing gear at 6,800rpm.
Shifting at 6,800rpm will result in the actual gearchange occuring as the rev's peak just on the rev limit.
I agree it should be faster shifting in manual mode than leaving it in auto, but you can never know for sure without trial and error or without exact examination of the power & torque curves (which will vary if you have any mod's) and the gear ratios. Note that the optimal shift point will often be different for each gearchange because the difference in ratio's between 1st & 2nd will most likely be different to 2nd & 3rd and so on.
Also remember more rpm does not always equal more power, but it can be worthwhile revving it past the rpm for peak power if it means that you are in a better part of the power band when the next gear is selected.
Read the TSX/Euro technical document. If you let it bounce off the limiter for extended periods, it says that the autobox will shift up.
I've never been stupid enough to leave the car in gear bouncing off the rev limiter for that long!! :rolleyes:
na i ahvent done the 0-100 times yet. I cant realy acurately measure same time i drive. I am thinking that i should put someone beside me and do it or something. i will try today if i get the chance. s should i change gear at 6800 rpm or 7100 rpm?
aaronng
24-11-2004, 03:06 PM
na i ahvent done the 0-100 times yet. I cant realy acurately measure same time i drive. I am thinking that i should put someone beside me and do it or something. i will try today if i get the chance. s should i change gear at 6800 rpm or 7100 rpm?
Oooh, yeah, it is good to have someone else time for you as it is difficult (and stupid) to keep your eye on the stop watch at 100km/h.
Push the lever at 6800rpm and see if the car changes to 2nd at 7100rpm. Since others say there is a lag, you have to time to change so that the car itself changes at 7100rpm.
aaronng
24-11-2004, 03:15 PM
Shifting at 7,100rpm will result in it bouncing off the rev limiter and then actually changing gear at 6,800rpm.
Shifting at 6,800rpm will result in the actual gearchange occuring as the rev's peak just on the rev limit.
Oops, meant to say to shift at the suitable rpm so that when the car shifts, it is at 7100rpm, you are right.
I agree it should be faster shifting in manual mode than leaving it in auto, but you can never know for sure without trial and error or without exact examination of the power & torque curves (which will vary if you have any mod's) and the gear ratios. Note that the optimal shift point will often be different for each gearchange because the difference in ratio's between 1st & 2nd will most likely be different to 2nd & 3rd and so on.
Also remember more rpm does not always equal more power, but it can be worthwhile revving it past the rpm for peak power if it means that you are in a better part of the power band when the next gear is selected.
The ratios for 1st and 2nd in the 5AT are 2.652 and 1.517. Doing the math for torque multiplication, 1st gear will have 2.652/1.517 = 1.748 times the torque of 2nd gear. The ratio of the max to min torque of the Euro's engine from 1000rpm to 7100rpm is 1.328 (dyno from Honda). Therefore throughout the rev range of the Euro, 1st gear will ALWAYS have more torque than 2nd gear (assuming the highest you will ever rev is 7100rpm). The only mods that can change this characteristic is a super aggressive cam and the disabling of the VTEC system, so that you get piss all torque below 5000rpm and all the action between 5000 and 7100rpm.
Isn't math fun? :D
viperx
24-11-2004, 05:35 PM
every car has a power and torque curve... its just that hondas tend get peak power at higher revs than most other japanese cars.
aaronng
24-11-2004, 06:16 PM
every car has a power and torque curve... its just that hondas tend get peak power at higher revs than most other japanese cars.
Power doesn't mean much, it is just Torque x RPM divided by 5252. For the Euro, peak torque arrives at 4500rpm, just like many other cars. It's only when you are looking at the Honda legendary engines such as the B16C, B18C3 and now the K20A, that have the highly aggressive 2nd cam profile that you get peak torque very close to the red line.
In this discussion about the Euro, the torque (and hence acceleration) in 1st gear is always higher than 2nd in the whole rev range. Same goes for 2nd and 3rd gear, 2nd always has more torque than 3rd gear.
You know what? I think that the Euro's 2nd cam that comes on at 6000rpm is wasted because the engine can't rev much higher than 7100rpm.
timmy_12
24-11-2004, 11:38 PM
Ahhhh ... no. Have you even driven an auto Euro? In manual mode it will not shift up a gear automatically, but rather it will just sit in the gear you've selected and bounce off the rev limiter. Maybe your Sirion did auto-shift up even in manual mode, but not all cars/gearboxes are the same.
The gearbox is just an automatic not an SMG, so when in manual mode it is just manually selecting the same gears in the gearbox that it uses in automatic mode. Same gear ratios, still working through the same power-sapping torque converter. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the auto gearbox to make more/less power in manual vs auto mode.
However it may be faster in manual mode but only because it won't automatically shift up just after 6,500rpm like it does even at WOT in auto mode. I have found that tapping the gear lever up at 6,800rpm in manual mode will result in the gear eventually changing at 7,100/7,200rpm without bouncing off the rev limiter. Whether this is actually faster or not, I'm not sure.
RodYeah i actually own one check it out at
www.coastcars.net (http://www.coastcars.net/)
my mistake i tried it tonight after reading your comments i just assumed it did as my sales guy told me it did so i will be having a few words about that
sorry if i upset you with what i sad too.
Not upset at all ... sorry if I offended.
thanks
Rod
hnm738
06-06-2005, 11:49 PM
i have a tiptronic fto and euro luxury auto
my fto readlines 8200rpm i time it to be 7.5 - flat 8 sec
my euro readlining it at 6800-7000 gets me about 9 seconds or low 9's
because both cars are auto you cant launch it like you would in a manual so get a slower time
because both cars are auto you cant launch it like you would in a manual so get a slower time
The gearing makes a bigger difference in the 6mt
Tobster
07-06-2005, 02:17 PM
I don't have one, but apparently the auto will also "learn" from the way you drive it. Wheels had one as a staff car and were giving little reports on it at the back last year. They started driving it hard in the car park and after about a week or so they shaved over a second (I think from memory) off the sort of times it was running...
I don't have one, but apparently the auto will also "learn" from the way you drive it. Wheels had one as a staff car and were giving little reports on it at the back last year. They started driving it hard in the car park and after about a week or so they shaved over a second (I think from memory) off the sort of times it was running...
That is the ECU - and is the same with the manual.
So, theoretically, if all Euro drivers drive like maniancs, all day, every day, our cars will eventually do 5 second 0-100 k runs? thatd be the day
So, theoretically, if all Euro drivers drive like maniancs, all day, every day, our cars will eventually do 5 second 0-100 k runs? thatd be the day
Ahh no.
There is a variance but hard to say how much and where the actual low or peak points are. My car dynoed 3rd gear at 120kw (probably peak). On same dyno 5 minutes previously - another Euro 6mt got 101kw (probably low point).
That gives you an idea of how the ECU can halt proceedings if it wants. From my crude understanding of the Euro ECU it is very advanced and complex. It is always making fine adjustments to air/fuel ratio, etc. I heard the RX8 is similar - put it on a dyno and "only" gets 125kw because the ECU is confused by the rollers.
I (now) think dynos of the Euro are worthless - you can never get an accurate base to compare it to. Try 5 runs and you can get vastly different results.
MiSloVic
08-06-2005, 06:59 PM
dyno numbers varies from car to car, engine to engine.. and if the dyno machine is a roller based, then the size of the tires, how much grip the tyres can manage to grab on the rollers, etc, etc.. quite a few factors, sufficient to change the dyno numbers significantly.
Matell
08-06-2005, 08:40 PM
Ahh no.
I (now) think dynos of the Euro are worthless - you can never get an accurate base to compare it to. Try 5 runs and you can get vastly different results.
I second that! But will still dyno after each mod cos I'm a silly fool who must like wasting $75 :D
Ahh no.
.
I was joking, should have put a smiley face :D
its hard to convey emotion thru just plain text...
:rolleyes:
dyno numbers varies from car to car, engine to engine.. and if the dyno machine is a roller based, then the size of the tires, how much grip the tyres can manage to grab on the rollers, etc, etc.. quite a few factors, sufficient to change the dyno numbers significantly.
Yeah but it is more than just car to car differences - the ECU is also making adjustments.
When Euro77 had his VAFC installed they did quite a few base runs. Even with the base runs there was lots of variance.
Euro77 - correct me if I am wrong - but your base runs in 4th ranged from 103 to 109 - or thereabouts. No adjustments to anything.
That is a fairly big variance - so how do you know on any particular run whether there is a gain if just stock you can get such a range?
Anyway - we are getting a bit off topic here.
Suntzu
09-06-2005, 09:38 AM
Do the dyno peeps think its weird having all the little euros on their machines after all the brutes in the clone after clone gen 3 flacodore? :)
Id like to dyno mine after I do all the mods.
MiSloVic
09-06-2005, 11:26 AM
would say, temperature differences and the skills of the dyno operator is crucial too..
in my car, a dyno done in hot summer afternoon (35C) shows about 10% drop in power, compared to a cool day (hi-20C).
i heard something about elevation, or the land / sea level plays a part in dyno numbers as well.
Slugoid
09-06-2005, 08:34 PM
i heard something about elevation, or the land / sea level plays a part in dyno numbers as well.
Taking a physics pov, at different altitudes, air pressure would be different, so amount of air going into the engine would also be slightly different. Not to mention boiling point and ignition temp would be different as well.
euro77
09-06-2005, 10:06 PM
Euro77 - correct me if I am wrong - but your base runs in 4th ranged from 103 to 109 - or thereabouts. No adjustments to anything.
Yes, that is correct.:thumbsup:
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