what is the best height setup for track/street use

[nny911]

ive got a civic fd1 recently bought adjustable coilovers just wondering whats too low? what is the best height setup for track/street use?

atm my front scrubs when i turn

[hotdc2]

if your wheels are rubbing against the guards then that is no good for track. lower is better for track but you have to do something about the fenders. Sydneys roads are terrible, best off leaving it stock for daily use

[Riced_Civic]

usually about 1 or 2 finger gaps i reckon for track and street as under heavy acceleration and braking the cars weight gets moved alot.

well thats what i have atm 2 finger gaps

[rk 86 wa]

i have a 1 and a half finger gap between mine and it works a charm, dont need to do the stupid sideways turn bullsh*t when going over speed humps etc etc etc.

Btw when you installed your coils, make sure you didnt adjust the upper sleeves on your shocks (both front and rear) as this is pre set from the manufacturer at the ideal height setting to allow suspension travel. working from the bottom sleeve is the way you are supposed to do it.

if you did then id suggest get someone to reinstall properly before you blow a valve out.

as for track adjustments, i have a full read out from my last alignment if you want me to upload it.

its for a slightly more oversteery set up with the respective toe, camber and castor read outs. bearing in mind my rear is almost completely stripped so the weight is very front bias making it oversteery enough as it is lol.

i have yet to take it back onto a track but just from driving around daily with the sussy dialed in properly, it makes a worrrrld of difference.

alternately, just ask one of the local track junkies in your area and ask them who they get their sussy done by, take it down to xxxxxxxx shop, ask them to dial it in (for what ever use you would like it for) and watch, ask questions etc etc etc.

[ewendc2r]

ok. To really answer this question you need to read up on suspension dynamics and setup - Go to honda-tech.com and google as much as you can. RR98ITR has some interesting posts that you can learn from, but it is totally dependent on a number of factors (let alone ground clearance and rubbing issues). Lower is not always better -- it does have an effect on geometry (Roll centre), Rate of roll (again, relating to roll centre)and bump steer.. Then you need to look into pitch and roll axis..

Meh -- If you aren't serious serious, just raise it so it doesn't scrub. Or work out where its scrubbing and look for a fix to maintain lower ride height.

[Sydneykid]

Btw when you installed your coils, make sure you didnt adjust the upper sleeves on your shocks (both front and rear) as this is pre set from the manufacturer at the ideal height setting to allow suspension travel. working from the bottom sleeve is the way you are supposed to do it.

But if you do that you are reducing the droop, so the wheels lift off the ground over bumps.
If you use the lower spring seat height you don't change the droop and the wheels stay on the ground.


Cheers
Gary

[Sydneykid]

Standard height is best.

Unless you have the parts, tools, expertise and experience to correct the suspension geometry after you lower it. The lower you go the more parts, tools, expertise and experience you need.

Cheers
Gary

[r3ckless]

hmm.. im ina simi,iar situation.. would like to elminate that gap between my guards and the tyre.. However i would be even more pissed off if my car was lower, adn i hit some rubbish on the road by mistake.

[rk 86 wa]

But if you do that you are reducing the droop, so the wheels lift off the ground over bumps.
If you use the lower spring seat height you don't change the droop and the wheels stay on the ground.


Cheers
Gary

This confused me a bit. So you do adjust it using the lower seat? Lols my bad grammer may be the cause but that was what I was trying to imply. Btw I want to rep ya but I need to spread some before I can :(

[chargeR]

But if you do that you are reducing the droop, so the wheels lift off the ground over bumps.
If you use the lower spring seat height you don't change the droop and the wheels stay on the ground.


Cheers
Gary

I also don't understand. If you adjust the ride height on a coilover that has both spring perches and a lower perch like in this picture:

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3306/img1408ex2.jpg

Then if you adjust the ride height using the lower collar then droop travel should be nearly unchanged (neglecting small changes in motion ratio and stuff). How is it that you could reduce droop travel using this method? The only way to eat up droop travel in such an arrangement would be to wind up the two spring perches thus compressing the spring.

[Sydneykid]

I also don't understand. If you adjust the ride height on a coilover that has both spring perches and a lower perch like in this picture:

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3306/img1408ex2.jpg

Then if you adjust the ride height using the lower collar then droop travel should be nearly unchanged (neglecting small changes in motion ratio and stuff). How is it that you could reduce droop travel using this method? The only way to eat up droop travel in such an arrangement would be to wind up the two spring perches thus compressing the spring.


The total length of the shock absorber determines how far the wheel drops when the chassis is lifted, say over a bump or even on a jack. Most Japanese coil over kits have very high spring rates for what are pretty light cars so they don’t compress the springs much. Cheap coil over kits don’t have helper/ keeper springs on the front or rear, even more expensive kits only have them on the rear. With high springs rates not being compressed much the only answer is to limit the travel of the shock to keep the springs captive. This is further exacerbated when they use short body shocks as they also have to use short shock shafts, which further limits the amount of droop available.

This triple combination (short shock, high spring rate, no helper/tender spring) means you don’t need much of a bump to lift the wheels off the ground. Using a larger swaybar helps when it’s roll that causes the wheel to unload, but has no effect when both wheels are affected by the bump.

As a comparison jack up a standard car, front or rear, and see how much the wheels droop, Car manufacturers aren’t stupid, they design in this amount of droop for a good reason, to keep the wheels on the ground. Which after all is pretty important, it really hard to control a car when its wheels are off the ground.

An example perhaps, most people last year heard about the Skyline that flew of the road, hit a tree and killed the 2 occupants. That accident was put down as being caused by speed, but the fact is that wasn’t the route cause. The car had almost zero suspension droop, so when it went over a hump around a slight bend in the road all 4 wheels came off the ground. When the driver turned the steering wheel to negotiate the corner and applied the brakes to slow down, nothing happened as the wheels were off the ground. It carried on in a straight line into a tree.

The need for droop translates to racing, whether bouncing a car of the ripple strips or lifting the rear wheels over the hump in Conrod Straight. Take a look at how much the suspension droops in a V8Supercar when it’s up on the jacks. A pit stop is a good time. As a rule of thumb we run 2/3rd of the suspension travel for compression and 1/3rd for droop. For use on race track which in general is much smoother than the average road.


BTW I noticed in that picture the tie rod end is still connected below the steering arm, not a good idea when the car is lowered more than 25 mm. It really should be swapped for a steering arm with the ball joint taper on the top, which helps correct the bump steer. I find it hard to believe that a coil over supplier that sells kits for drastic lowering ignores the need for such essential correction. Whatever kit they are I would suggest not buying them if you intend to lower the car more than 25 mm. If you already have them then you need to do something about the incorrect steering arm


Cheers
Gary

[chargeR]

The total length of the shock absorber determines how far the wheel drops when the chassis is lifted, say over a bump or even on a jack. Most Japanese coil over kits have very high spring rates for what are pretty light cars so they don’t compress the springs much. Cheap coil over kits don’t have helper/ keeper springs on the front or rear, even more expensive kits only have them on the rear. With high springs rates not being compressed much the only answer is to limit the travel of the shock to keep the springs captive. This is further exacerbated when they use short body shocks as they also have to use short shock shafts, which further limits the amount of droop available.

This triple combination (short shock, high spring rate, no helper/tender spring) means you don’t need much of a bump to lift the wheels off the ground. Using a larger swaybar helps when it’s roll that causes the wheel to unload, but has no effect when both wheels are affected by the bump.

As a comparison jack up a standard car, front or rear, and see how much the wheels droop, Car manufacturers aren’t stupid, they design in this amount of droop for a good reason, to keep the wheels on the ground. Which after all is pretty important, it really hard to control a car when its wheels are off the ground.

An example perhaps, most people last year heard about the Skyline that flew of the road, hit a tree and killed the 2 occupants. That accident was put down as being caused by speed, but the fact is that wasn’t the route cause. The car had almost zero suspension droop, so when it went over a hump around a slight bend in the road all 4 wheels came off the ground. When the driver turned the steering wheel to negotiate the corner and applied the brakes to slow down, nothing happened as the wheels were off the ground. It carried on in a straight line into a tree.

The need for droop translates to racing, whether bouncing a car of the ripple strips or lifting the rear wheels over the hump in Conrod Straight. Take a look at how much the suspension droops in a V8Supercar when it’s up on the jacks. A pit stop is a good time. As a rule of thumb we run 2/3rd of the suspension travel for compression and 1/3rd for droop. For use on race track which in general is much smoother than the average road.

Cheers
Gary

Just to confirm Gary because your post doesn't make it clear but you do agree that the type of coilover mentioned by both myself and rk 86 wa can be adjusted for ride height with no effect on droop travel as long as you use the lower of the 3 locking rings?

I would like your opinion on my suspension configuration. I am using 14kg/mm front springs in my DC5 as pictured above (with the spring perches just snug against the bottom of the spring to stop it rattling around with the damper at full droop) and I have often been worried that I don't have enough droop travel and that it is affecting traction over bumpy surfaces. A rough estimate would give me about 25-30mm of droop travel from when the car is static (approx 400kg front corner weight, 1:1 motion ratio, very approximate I know ;)). I doubt I have 60mm of bump travel before the tyre hits the chassis as your rule of thumb would suggest but I haven't measured it.

Would you recommend I either lower the spring perches a little to get more droop travel (making the spring uncaptive with the car off the ground) or lower the spring perches and use a helper spring to stop the spring from becoming un-captive? Taking into account that the Mugen dampers I am using are designed for very high spring rates and as such probably don't have a lot of stroke.





BTW I noticed in that picture the tie rod end is still connected below the steering arm, not a good idea when the car is lowered more than 25 mm. It really should be swapped for a steering arm with the ball joint taper on the top, which helps correct the bump steer. I find it hard to believe that a coil over supplier that sells kits for drastic lowering ignores the need for such essential correction. Whatever kit they are I would suggest not buying them if you intend to lower the car more than 25 mm. If you already have them then you need to do something about the incorrect steering arm


Cheers
Gary

I am hoping there is just some confusion here Gary but on a stock DC5 the tie rod connects through the top of the steering arm, not from underneath as my picture shows. Are you suggesting that I should invert the tie rod end so that they are back as they were when the car was stock? You are going to blow the minds of all the DC5 owners that think inverted tie rod ends are the best thing since sliced bread. Note I don't include myself in this category :).

[nny911]

i have a 1 and a half finger gap between mine and it works a charm, dont need to do the stupid sideways turn bullsh*t when going over speed humps etc etc etc.

Btw when you installed your coils, make sure you didnt adjust the upper sleeves on your shocks (both front and rear) as this is pre set from the manufacturer at the ideal height setting to allow suspension travel. working from the bottom sleeve is the way you are supposed to do it.

if you did then id suggest get someone to reinstall properly before you blow a valve out.

as for track adjustments, i have a full read out from my last alignment if you want me to upload it.

its for a slightly more oversteery set up with the respective toe, camber and castor read outs. bearing in mind my rear is almost completely stripped so the weight is very front bias making it oversteery enough as it is lol.

i have yet to take it back onto a track but just from driving around daily with the sussy dialed in properly, it makes a worrrrld of difference.

alternately, just ask one of the local track junkies in your area and ask them who they get their sussy done by, take it down to xxxxxxxx shop, ask them to dial it in (for what ever use you would like it for) and watch, ask questions etc etc etc.

yer atm im adjusting the shock not the spring .. for the front... im kinda lost for the back.. as they are 2 separate pieces. to raise the back u adjust by the spring? im uploading pics now

[nny911]

this is a picture of the rear
so if i want to adjust the height.
do i adjust the shock or the spring

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g40/ny911/rear-1.jpg

[nny911]

i raised it via the spring. but it seems as though it doesnt sit properly.
?help?

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g40/ny911/DSC06190.jpg

[Mr EG]

What's the best drop for 14'' rims on a EG? I don't want too much gap between the wheel and guard but, I wanna be able to get over humps aswell. Mine too low atm it a scrape kient.

2'' drop? 2.5'' drop?

[mocchi]

found this (http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/c1/index.htm) while trying to understand what is droop.

[string]

found this (http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/c1/index.htm) while trying to understand what is droop.
If you're interested in the physics, look elsewhere as this source is very misleading IMO.