What is this spring for?

[im.Kusuma]

Hey guys, noob question, when i took off my rear wheel, i found out that i had a spring on my shocks.. which are located under the spring.. I wasnt sure what this was so i wanted to ask :
- are my shocks "adjustable"
- are these removable? if so is it dangerous?
- what are these fuctioned for??

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/8480/img0443.gif (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/img0443.gif/)

i wanted to take it off for my first thought coz the car is ultra bumpy and hard...

any good/helpful reply would be good.

thanks,

frans

[bennjamin]

that spring , is a helper spring. It is a softer rate for small bumps. Once it full compresses during harder bumps or weight shifting the larger spring then is enabled

ps taking it out will make the ride more bumpy.

PPS i believe the springs are installed up side down - pretty sure the helper is supposed to be on the top. (correct me if wrong)

[hotdc2]

in theory it would work just as well on the bottom regardless of iff they're normlly supposed to go on the top. i dunno though ben, thats what it seems like to me though

[hotdc2]

a quick google search found this image, which shows the helper spring on the bottom:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/coilovers/images/install_helper_spring/install-17.JPG


however, i also came across this image which shows front and rear shocks with the rears having a helper on the top.. and the front's helper spring at the bottom of the shock.. (i hope i got that right)
http://www.rcephotos.com/photos/albums/album79/P1030106_001.sized.jpg

Maybe there's a reason for this? but my general assumption would be that they would do a very similar job regardless of the positioning on the shock. To the OP, for daily driving i would definitely leave it as is.

[im.Kusuma]

cheers fir the reply guys!

Ben - I pmed you today, didnt receive a reply..

[Killa From Manila]

helper springs just hold the main spring captive in place, so that it does not become unseated when the shock uncompresses

[im.Kusuma]

helper springs just hold the main spring captive in place, so that it does not become unseated when the shock uncompresses
Thanks for the info :thumbsup:

[im.Kusuma]

sorry for bumping my old thread,
according to the pics i posted, would turning the coil upwards make it lower or make it higher? atm my coils are at the very bottom (the turning thing) and i would like to make it lower :S

[e240]

It is a softer rate for small bumps. Once it full compresses during harder bumps or weight shifting the larger spring then is enabled

ps taking it out will make the ride more bumpy.
(correct me if wrong)

Thats not right Ben...Killa has the correct answer

The helper springs fully compress under load, with stiff spring (and usually short too), when the suspension is in full droop, the spring's total extended length is shorter then the travel of the shock. The helper spring takes care of the slack. it keeps them from rattling & slamming back when the suspension comes back up.

[im.Kusuma]

Thats not right Ben...Killa has the correct answer
do yu mind telling me which way makes the car go lower?
dw bout the old post lol

[e240]

Oh, just noticed the date..

The shocks in the picture above are not realy height adjustable.
Others have a lower bracket thats adjustable.

[Nepolian]

If you look closely....you can see that the strut is threaded with an allen key lock on the coil base.

Looks like it is almost at the bottom anyway. But hey give it a go. Clean the debris with some degreaser, then hit it with some WD to loosen the thread up and see if you can turn it!

or you can take out the helper spring which may/would drop it by about 1-2 cms.

[im.Kusuma]

i can turn it, and yeah its with an allen key. I tried on one, i put it higher but then the car sits higher lol.. logically, the shorter the spring, the lower the car goes? but yeah lol
i wanna confirm it :S

[Killa From Manila]

the more u compress the spring the harder it gets so ur car sits higher

[im.Kusuma]

the more u compress the spring the harder it gets so ur car sits higher
thanks champ! That was a very straight forward answer, which what i was looking for! thanks

[tmy]

The lower the spring sits on the shock, the lower the car is going to be.

EDIT; Didn't realize there was a 2nd page :(

[redefine]

the more u compress the spring the harder it gets so ur car sits higher

uhh no. the spring rate is constant and depends on the spring. if you adjust it the ride height changes...not the stiffness.

your spring will compress the same no matter where the setting is. how much the spring compresses depends on the weight of your car not the ride height

[Killa From Manila]

the preload on the spring changes then..

[Killa From Manila]

so ur saying if u compress all four springs by lets say 50%, then go and take the car for a drive the ride will feel the same?? doubt it

[im.Kusuma]

so ur saying if u compress all four springs by lets say 50%, then go and take the car for a drive the ride will feel the same?? doubt it
lolol dw man. Ur first post was good enough. I tried it out and u were right. The stiffness makes the height higher

[yah mum]

is it dual height adjustable?

[redefine]

so ur saying if u compress all four springs by lets say 50%, then go and take the car for a drive the ride will feel the same?? doubt it

no im saying if you change the ride height of the coilovers, the stiffness dosent change. moving the thread at the seat of the spring does nothing to the compression of the springs or the spring rate

what ride height DOES change is suspension geometry, which means that you may get less body roll etc through corners with a change of height....but the springs dont get stiffer

[Killa From Manila]

no im saying if you change the ride height of the coilovers, the stiffness dosent change. moving the thread at the seat of the spring does nothing to the compression of the springs or the spring rate

what ride height DOES change is suspension geometry, which means that you may get less body roll etc through corners with a change of height....but the springs dont get stiffer

if the springs dont get stiffer then why does it raise the car when the springs are compressed?
say u have dual height adjustable coilover and u compress the springs which results in raising the car, then adjust the lower bracket (independantly of the spring) to bring the car back down to the original height, wouldnt that be similar to swapping in higher rate springs??

[redefine]

what??

since when was this coilover dual height adjustable...

adjusting the bottom spring seat like op did does not adjust the spring rate, does not compress the spring, does not adjust the stiffness of the shocks....it only adjusts the ride height and preload on the spring which effects suspension geometry/roll centre etc....nothing else....

adjusting height makes it higher cause the spring seat is highter, not because its "compressed". IF the springs were compressed the car would be lower as the spring would be shorter...

if it was dual height adjustable you would wanto put the spring perch to have a good ammount of preload on the spring and then lower it with the other adjustment. but that dosent "compress" the spring

[Killa From Manila]

what??

since when was this coilover dual height adjustable...

adjusting the bottom spring seat like op did does not adjust the spring rate, does not compress the spring, does not adjust the stiffness of the shocks....it only adjusts the ride height and preload on the spring which effects suspension geometry/roll centre etc....nothing else....

if compressing or loosening the spring did not have an effect on it whatsoever, then why does the cars right height change???........

adjusting height makes it higher cause the spring seat is highter, not because its "compressed". IF the springs were compressed the car would be lower as the spring would be shorter...

umm no.. when u compress the spring (making it shorter as u like to say) RAISES your car. when you loosen the perch holding the spring it LOWERS your car. this is where the helper springs come in

if it was dual height adjustable you would wanto put the spring perch to have a good ammount of preload on the spring and then lower it with the other adjustment. but that dosent "compress" the spring

[redefine]

ok.

1. i never said compressing the spring dosent have any effect on ride height....i said that changing ride height by changing the perch would only have an effect on 1. preload on spring. 2. ride height. and 3. only if you do it to the extreme you may be getting to the limits of shock travel.
and if you read what i wrote, i didnt mention ride height in that paragraph. i mentioned that it didnt have any effect (or if thats not right, at least minimal effect) on stiffness on the springs.

2. changing the perch DOES NOT compress the spring. it may increase the preload on the spring, but once its loaded (eg. the car is off jacks/hoist) the spring is the exact same length as before the height change in the perch was done. this is why the ride height changes -_- if the spring was compressed and stayed compressed the ride height would be lower then you would expect with that change of perch...

believe me i understand perfectly what raising and lowering the perch does to ride height....but the ride height does not change cause you "compress" the springs. thats just silly


just think...compressing the spring makes the spring shorter....why would making your spring shorter raise the ride height?? you must have your terminology mixed up

[Killa From Manila]

just think about it. the more u press a spring the harder it gets therefore more force is needed to continue compressing it. when u tighten the spring on a coilover it raises the car because the car's weight does not have enough downward force to return the car back to its previous right height as the car's weight remained the same.

see the pic of the coilover below, how do u expect to change the ride height using that.....
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/killafrommanilla/coilovers4.jpg

[redefine]

*facepalm* the spring dosent get harder...the spring rate stays exactly the same.

trust me...i have done entire semesters on this.

you arent compressing the spring...your just raising the point on which the spring sits. this combined with the SAME spring rate and the SAME weight leads to an increased height. formula is derived from x=kf where k is spring rate, f is force gotten from weight and gravity and x is compression on the spring.


and you posted 2 pics of "coilovers" one is height adjustable, one is stock. you adjust the height on the adjustable one by changing the spring perch. easy

[Killa From Manila]

obviously im talking about the aftermarket coilover on the left.

okay lets say the spring in that picture from top to bottom is 20cm. Now u tighten the rings so the spring is 15cm in length. you just compressed the spring by 5cm which results in raising the car. this is what im trying to point out! u seem to think its the opposite when making the spring shorter.

good for u if you've done semesters on this but do u actually own adjustable coilovers let alone tried to adjust some??

[thaizeg]

obviously im talking about the aftermarket coilover on the left.

okay lets say the spring in that picture from top to bottom is 20cm. Now u tighten the rings so the spring is 15cm in length. you just compressed the spring by 5cm which results in raising the car. this is what im trying to point out! u seem to think its the opposite when making the spring shorter.

good for u if you've done semesters on this but do u actually own adjustable coilovers let alone tried to adjust some??

Killa from Manilla :
when u say u compress the spring's length by 5cm... u realise it is because u are raising the spring perch by 5cm also? this is what redefine is trying to say..

u have to look at the coilover as a whole rather than just the spring..
if the coilover was dual height adjustable, i can in ur terms 'compress the spring' and also make the car sit lower at the same time by adjusting the height of the shock body..

its all relative to where the spring sits on the shock body..

just my 2c

[redefine]

lol theres a difference between owning something and knowing how it works. i have never owned an rx7, but i know how a wankel works very well...

i was kinda half having fun when i mentioned the pic :p i knew you were talking about the aftermarket one

what you are talking about is called preload. once the car is off jacks and the suspension is loaded. the weight of the car will overcome the preload and the spring will be exactly the same length. it is not stiffer, it is not more or less "compressed". it is higher cause the spring perch is higher. simple as that.


i have 2 sets of stock shocks at home one set has stock springs and one set has springs that are both lowered AND stiffer. but when both sets are off the car theyre exactly the same length. how do you think that works, if the stiffer spring raises the car?? of course the lowered stiffer springs have a different preload on them. i just cant change that preload cause the stock shocks are not adjustable

[Killa From Manila]

Killa from Manilla :
when u say u compress the spring's length by 5cm... u realise it is because u are raising the spring perch by 5cm also? this is what redefine is trying to say..

u have to look at the coilover as a whole rather than just the spring..
if the coilover was dual height adjustable, i can in ur terms 'compress the spring' and also make the car sit lower at the same time by adjusting the height of the shock body..

its all relative to where the spring sits on the shock body..

just my 2c


yes raising the perch by 5cm or compressing the spring by 5cm means the same thing, in the end the perch is moving closer to the top of the shock and doing so makes the car higher which redefine disagress with....
and yea i know u can change the height of the spring along with changing the length of the shock body i used that in an example on a previous page


lol theres a difference between owning something and knowing how it works. i have never owned an rx7, but i know how a wankel works very well...

i was kinda half having fun when i mentioned the pic :p i knew you were talking about the aftermarket one

what you are talking about is called preload. once the car is off jacks and the suspension is loaded. the weight of the car will overcome the preload and the spring will be exactly the same length. it is not stiffer, it is not more or less "compressed". it is higher cause the spring perch is higher. simple as that.


i have 2 sets of stock shocks at home one set has stock springs and one set has springs that are both lowered AND stiffer. but when both sets are off the car theyre exactly the same length. how do you think that works, if the stiffer spring raises the car?? of course the lowered stiffer springs have a different preload on them. i just cant change that preload cause the stock shocks are not adjustable

now ur aggreeing with me saying the car is higher when u raise the perch but a few posts up u say that raising the perch making the spring shorter wud not raise a car

[redefine]

facepalm.jpg

you dont get it. Preload is not compression. Compressed springs lower. I never said raising the perch would lower the car. I always said a raised perch would raise the car. The problem i had is once you have raised the perch it is definitely NOT increased stiffnes that raises the car. Its the position of the perch in relation to suspension geometry. Lrn2read

[im.Kusuma]

-.-" guys ....


lol

[Killa From Manila]

wen i say compressing the spring i dont mean actually taking it out and turning it into a physically shorter spring, sorta like chopping it lol. i mean raising the perch, wen u raise it by x amount u compress the spring by x amount. get meee yo?

[redefine]

that isnt compressing the spring...its preloading the spring...get me??

and it dosent make the spring any stiffer like you said earlier