The B20VTEC discussion thread [Archive] - Page 3

Touge Tom

01-07-2010, 11:42 PM

ivé had a b20vtec for 3 years now built from the bottom up. you name it, type-r crank and low friction journal berring's , 84.5mm forged 13 comp pistons with 3 leaf head gasket to drop the comp to 12.5, forged rod's, block guard+welded in and the block planed and the cylinder's honed out, p72 vtec head, stage 3 + buddyclub cam's, skunk2 intake manifold, buddyclub 4-2-1 header, high flow cat with 2.5 straight through piping, toda racing fly wheel, exedy sports tuff clutch, type-r gearbox 4.7 final drive, koni adjustable shock's with lowered king spring's, blox 68mm throttle body, buddy club double coil valve spring's with titanium retainer's, jdm p30 ecu with apexi vafc2 and 240cc injectors. and this is my daily to and from work ,shop's, road trip's and home. iv'e had no problem's with this set up. it was buit @ good performance centre yennora by charlie and his crew. so why doe's everybody hate on the frankenstien?

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 10:08 AM

You spent all that money, and tuned on a VAFC2?

What sort of power you getting from that combo - Imagine the header is restrictive? I've heard restrictive header can induce detonation in high output B20's?

Stock ports on the head?

I'm about to buy an Endyn head thats been prepared -- 1mm oversized intake valves, extensive porting and welding etc .. Hoping to use it as my 'power-getter' :)

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 10:23 AM

Thanks for the info -- Also wondering why you went with 13:1 comp pistons only to reduce comp by using thick head gasket.. ? Were there clearance issues?

yaz_gsi_my_titz

02-07-2010, 03:53 PM

using a b18cr crank will result in a 1.9 litre. 87mm crank vs 89mm b20/gsi crank

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 04:40 PM

using a b18cr crank will result in a 1.9 litre. 87mm crank vs 89mm b20/gsi crank

Techincally closer to 2L than 1.9L lol !! :P

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 04:40 PM

1956cc ..

string

02-07-2010, 04:49 PM

I get 1932cc...

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 05:02 PM

84.5?? Hmmm

GSi_PSi

02-07-2010, 05:19 PM

irrellevant, using a 89mm will give you more capacity

string

02-07-2010, 05:26 PM

84.5?? Hmmm

<= blind

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 05:40 PM

irrellevant, using a 89mm will give you more capacity

So? Itr stroke will rev better and the difference in cc is **** all .. Better r/s ratio, fully counterweighted, and the small difference in cc can be made up with a small increase in bore ie 85 mm ... In fact, without going to 92mm crank with tall deck, this is supposedly the best base for reliable performance.... Just more $$ than 89mm crank

eg5civic

02-07-2010, 05:51 PM

So? Itr stroke will rev better and the difference in cc is **** all .. Better r/s ratio, fully counterweighted, and the small difference in cc can be made up with a small increase in bore ie 85 mm ... In fact, without going to 92mm crank with tall deck, this is supposedly the best base for reliable performance.... Just more $$ than 89mm crank

lol how much is an 89mm crank...

i got an itr crank rod and pistons for 200 wnd hand and in good nick

and doesnt look like they will ever see my b16b

GSi_PSi

02-07-2010, 06:06 PM

if you want a reliable long lasting b20 i suggest you use the standard crankshaft 89mm which is already balanced from factory and dont mess with the already thin sleeves.
Using a ITR crank will decrease capacity and torque. the B20/gsi 89mm crank is free with a b20 engine lol. otherwise it wont be more than 50 bucks

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 06:09 PM

Yep cheap enough -- but they don't come in a 84mm+ bore do they.. I mean, you have to spend time and or money installing it into the block.. More $$ than simply changing rod bolts for a budget build. Likely need to get an align hone to make sure mains are correct and measure for bearings / journal clearance.. more $$ ...

Thats what i'm getting at. 89mm is used primarily because its the easiest - the B20B comes with the crank already in it.

Race application most people use either 87.2mm crank or 92mm crank in the states ... 95mm crank is mainly used only for drag races it seems due to increased bearing and side loading.

Even some of the reputable engine builders on this forum have recommended itr crank for high performance application and that the difference in actual output is minimal.

edit -- when i say race application, i mean the big budget guys.

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 06:14 PM

GsiPsi i am looking to go sleeved block mate. And there are harmonics issues with the b20 crank at high rpm. I'm talking endurance motor capability.

I'm just thinking fo the rod/stroke ratio and longevity of engine... The B20 Crank is lighter than the ITR crank though ....

GSi_PSi

02-07-2010, 06:19 PM

Ummm yes they do come with 84mm b20 blocks???? no you dont have to spend money or time installing installing it..????
the reason why the itr crank shouldnt be implemented is because its not designed for the b20 bottom end, stuffing up the harmonics of the engine completly.
plus your losing capacity and torque which is needed, the 89mm crank will give you better torque lower in the rev range, without wearing out the sleeves higher in the rev range. Netherlesss its more a fck around installing the itr crank than leaving the stock crank which will give you a better output

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 06:50 PM

Ok so maybe someone like Adrian or Chris or someone else with extensive knowledge can step in here but my belief was:

Harmonics come from the crank, not the block.

Yes the B20 block comes with 84mm but it doesn't come with the 87.2mm crank does it!

Yes, if you want to do it properly, you should get the main's align honed ?? (is that the term?) where they ensure the journals are true and straight. Then new bearings.. ADDED COST / EFFORT

The difference in capacity is a huge 40cc ...

I don't drive my engine on the track at lower rpm where the said 89mm develops more torque, and even on the street if i want the power i change down a gear. Why? To take advantage of a freely spinning engine.. In fact, the rod/stroke ratio and rod/bore ration is inclined to producing peak torque higher in the range meaning (again because HP is a product of torque & RPM) the range i use the motor in, it actually develops power higher where I am using it rather than tapering off..

ITR (again) is fully counterbalanced ... It can be lightened (some say around a kg max) without affecting high rpm harmonics / vibrations. Remember heavier = better vibration damping to some extent however at cost of engine response. Thus my question about weight of 89mm vs 87.2mm..

Look, if I could get a tall deck block, I'd just get a 92mm crank and call it a day with 84mm bore but thats when costs start to ramp up...

I'm not trying to start an argument but it just seems in race motors that the 87.2mm crank has yielded more reliable high rpm performance and with similar power levels (area under the graph, total accelerative effort)

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 06:52 PM

(ps im not trying to disrespect anyone here -- I have not built one, just trying to learn as well)

Chr1s

02-07-2010, 09:53 PM

The thread has turned into something for once :).

Harmonics can come from anywhere, it mainly gets distributed and amplified in the crank though. This is not apparently in only B20's, it's a phenomena in alot of engines, the F1 engineers spend hours on R&D to minimise/eliminate this in their motors, if anyone can get their hands on a spectograph from the engine recording of an F1 engine you will notice red areas in the lower RPM range, this is the harmonic they avoid, since the engine is barely at that RPM, it's not a worry, but i'm just trying to prove a point, every motor has a strong harmonic, my old nissan KA24 would harmonic so bad at around 7500 with the standard components its known that blocks have split, and we're talking cast iron blocks...

My only advice to eliminate this crap, balance everything in the engine, rods, pistons, pins, etc etc all the same weight, run a good harmonic balancer, ensure you have an oil cooler of some sort (99% of b20's out there don't have one), don't run aggressive cams for no reason and do the checks to ensure everything is ok - crank is true, etc. Align honing of the bores is something that should be done regardless. I don't know how many machine shops go through this process to check but to be honest, Honda blocks are pretty damn good from factory. I've had one block that had a stupidly tight 5th main on it though...don't know what happened there!

Crank weight - lighter is not always better, think of induced wobble. By using the ITR crank over the B20 crank, I daresay the engine response won't change much especially once the motor gets breathing.

This leads me to b20 crank vs itr crank, I don't see the big fuss, it's probably a good idea for the street and to keep the compression manageable, the rod ratio goes from 1.54 to 1.57, which is nothing dramatic. Sidewall/bearing loading is fine with that rod ratio regardless, you probably will find longer life from the later, but this has not been a problem on any street b20 so far.

The problem with making power isn't so much from the bottom end, too many people spend time on the bottom end and forget that power comes from the head. Yes the geometry of the bottom matters and choosing the right components bla bla matters, but who here goes to the effort of finding out what works best, what lasts the longest, what will make better torque and maintain life, at the end of the day, what I just mentioned in pursuit is left to engines with iron sleeves. I can't see standard sleeved b20 motors lasting with a fair big of power going through them for long, even if some do, I still think it's a matter of luck with regards to how long the sleeves will hold together, there is too many variables in the block production process and for material to cool in x amount of time will result in some sort of imperfection and result with a crack size different to the block made a moment ago. If someone thinks i'm talking out of my arse I can show you a simple mathematical model of how internal crack size changes the fracture toughness of a material.

If I was to do a sleeved b20 build, i'd do a tall teck with an 85mm bore and a 98mm stroke. Custom pistons with the pin raised as far as possible and running a rod as long as possible. I put together something that I calculated one night from curiosity, it's doable but the pistons will need a fair bit of insight to design, everything else is pretty much available easily.

This is comparing a typical ~135kw b20vtec build to what my program spat out for the figures of my combo; (assuming a 300cfm flowing head)

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/362/b20vsb20race.th.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/b20vsb20race.jpg/)

For those who can't read the graph, the bottom lines is the torque and HP output of the ~130kw b20v. (red and light blue is the big b20, light green and dark blue is the ~130kw b)

edit: Yes, restrictive exhausts lead to detonation on any engine, not just b20's, the increase in backpressure means that some exahaust gas may find it's way back into the chamber again and the rest is downhill..

mocchi

02-07-2010, 10:13 PM

ewendc2r

02-07-2010, 11:20 PM

Will get one anyway .. All insurance and tlc hah.

Thanks for the detailed reply chris

Benson

03-07-2010, 09:07 AM

An ITR crank pulley is more than sufficient to rev to 9200rpm. Just make sure you balance the bottom end properly

ewendc2r

03-07-2010, 09:36 AM

Benson, you mean using an itr crank and pulley is good to 9200rpm no need for damper? Or using itr pulley on b20 crank??

Touge Tom

03-07-2010, 09:45 AM

i went the thicker gasket so i could use 98 octane without detonation, other wise i'd have to use aviation fuel, and that shit's expensive!

Touge Tom

03-07-2010, 10:07 AM

wasn't all that expensive. just gotta know the right people?. the header isn't restrictive, you should check out the buddyclub site for info on these pipe's. the ports are factory size's. don't know the out put yet, i don't think it's worth knowing till i get my hand's on a S200 for a proper tune. but with the vafc2 i find i get a smother vtec switch point @ 5900, rather then the factory 4900 point, i also adjust the fuel map between these point's up 20%, think about it max rev's 8200 so the gap between these points is 20% of the rev range. i not claiming it's 100% accurate but by feel and checking my spark plug's it's not running lean or rich.

ewendc2r

03-07-2010, 10:45 AM

Ahh I see the logic in that (i.e. easier to build high cp short block and lower compression with head gasket and still have high cp capability for track in future etc .. ) Only concern is I heard thicker head gasket can fail easier??? (Confirm or deny anyone?) ..

I got to thinking about it all last night a bit more in depth regarding 87.2mm vs 89mm for my and most applications.. I'm not planning an 11,000rpm build so using the 87.2mm crank is probably unnecessary as Gsi-Psi pointed out in another thread.. I also figure that I can get a forged bottom end sleeved b20 (or b18 bored) to rev happily to 9500rpm when needed..

I think I've secured a head :) :eek:

Chris -- the 98mm stroke would have massive load on bearings wouldn't it? I.e. that would be great for a single race but no more without a tear down and inspect? Seems even with the 95mm stroke the increased load on bearings is an issue.. Thus the 92mm application for a daily duties high peformance motor... Would love to see that build though!

Has anyone had their block sleeved in Australia or should I get a block from the US? Shipping will be $$ compared to block price itself.

GSi_PSi

03-07-2010, 03:33 PM

you have balls running that car on only a shitty vtec air flow controller

Touge Tom

03-07-2010, 05:55 PM

no problem's since it was built. no ping'n or detonation, has always run fine.

Benson

03-07-2010, 06:04 PM

you have balls running that car on only a shitty vtec air flow controller

Well i guess if your not driving it hard then why not LOL

If he takes the set-up to the track, it will need a tow back home

Touge Tom

04-07-2010, 12:32 AM

i sense there is some trash talk'n, tuner try-hards. amongst the thread here?

89lude

04-07-2010, 12:46 AM

lol did someone just call benson a tuner try hard? :O

Chr1s

04-07-2010, 12:56 AM

No try hards. Just an owner that is backing a supernfaggotafc. Get a real ecu, what's the point of making fuel only adjustment...vtec crossover at 5900 on a b20v? What cams are you running? They must be big.

Ewen, the 98mm stroke build in the previous page had a long rod that made the rod ratio something like 1.52 which will show acceptable wear. I would go 84x95mm tall deck. 92mm will buzz harder but we all know rpm is teh devil.

Touge Tom

04-07-2010, 02:26 AM

why must someone build a motor to someone else's expectation's? chill out man? to each their i say! any way not all of us are certified mech's. and can only do with what we have and know at the time. i didn't intend to insult. i just don't get how we assume that my build would fail and have to be tow'd home due to a VAFC2. i have no track exp but i do push it hard up and down the old pacific highway, every second week end or so. not only i adjust the fuel @ the cross over, but throughout the entire rev range, i start by increasing the fuel @1000rpm by 4% and increase it again by 1% every 500rpm so when you get to 8200rpm it's now +20% @ top end. cam's i'm running are, intake 296 duration @ 1mm open and 11.5 lift. the exhaust 290 duration @1mm open and 11.3 lift.

GSi_PSi

04-07-2010, 02:33 AM

your going to spend all that money building up your b20 only to cheap out on a tuneable ecu which highly puts your motor at risk then call us tuner try hards for giving you advice

Touge Tom

04-07-2010, 02:39 AM

you guys are taking this all to seriously. i explained that earlier that i have this shitty controller and no dyno output figure's co's i haven't come across an S200 yet?

GSi_PSi

04-07-2010, 02:46 AM

i wouldnt be pushing it hard on any highways just yet then, better safe then sorry, and charlie doesnt do no warranty as far as im concerned

Touge Tom

04-07-2010, 02:49 AM

been pushing it hard for 3 year's now. like i said no prob's, and don't need warranty when it's built right.

Chr1s

04-07-2010, 08:23 AM

lol, sami, go take it for a spin and show the block what it can do :P hahah

Nothing against you as in bagging you out, but we just disagree how you are willing to risk so much money for nothing, if you say your waiting for a n s200, it's taking you 3 years? Anyway! Adding fuel like that doesn't mean your doing anything right. I think you should get an ecu for that thing asap and see what the fuel ratios are, if your more than happy with the setup at the moment, then so be it

bdw, you don't need to be a certified mechanic to know a little about this, sami for example has come from nothing and knows alot now, maybe not ecu tuning events but thats because he hasnt looked into that yet..im pretty sure, ABC taxi repairs wont know jack shit about a b20vtec anyway lol

ewendc2r

04-07-2010, 10:06 AM

Hey guys keep it tame each to their own.. Toguetom if it makes it easier I found my chipped s300 in the states for quite cheap compared to here, and I think you can find a good deal on Honda-tech .. I just don't understand (again) why local hondata dot price competitively to stop people shopping overseas..

I've been recommended set of s2p1 cams so will see if I can find a set, apparenty less aggressive wear on rockers compared with some of the others .. Has anyone experienced this wear?

Are there any sleeving specialists in aust that u builders would trust ?

Touge Tom

04-07-2010, 11:21 AM

okie dokie?

ewendc2r

04-07-2010, 12:33 PM

tinkerbell

04-07-2010, 01:53 PM

i just don't get how we assume that my build would fail and have to be tow'd home due to a VAFC2.

VAFC works fine for a B20VTEC... it all comes down to the tuner i guess?

tinkerbell

04-07-2010, 01:55 PM

Togue Tom .. How many kms u got on that setup? Longest I've seen so far is 25000miles so about 40000kms on a b20 stock sleeve before dramas... I guess they haven't been around that long to get an idea of longevity..

mine did over 40'000km and is still going...

my other one is also still around, from 2002 - no idea how many km on that one!

ewendc2r

04-07-2010, 06:55 PM

Do you give it a hard time reguarly or do you putt around town and only give it on the track???

Mugen_R

04-07-2010, 07:01 PM

man if ur worried about the motor dying then don't build one

ewendc2r

04-07-2010, 07:17 PM

Hardly a logical path.. I am mitigating weak points or concerns so I need to know those problems first. To say that is a little ridiculous. Everyone that builds an engine tries to avoid failure!

If you're saying don't build it unless you can afford it to fail then sure, but that's why I'm not going too hardcore with cams / rev requirement. Just making it as reliable as possible given others experiences!

Touge Tom

04-07-2010, 08:11 PM

Togue Tom .. How many kms u got on that setup? Longest I've seen so far is 25000miles so about 40000kms on a b20 stock sleeve before dramas... I guess they haven't been around that long to get an idea of longevity..

about 65,000klm. serviced every 5,000klm by myself.

Touge Tom

04-07-2010, 08:13 PM

VAFC works fine for a B20VTEC... it all comes down to the tuner i guess?

thank's for the support man!

TODA AU

04-07-2010, 11:02 PM

I'm about to buy an Endyn head thats been prepared -- 1mm oversized intake valves, extensive porting and welding etc .. Hoping to use it as my 'power-getter' :)
Stay away from oversized valves they will not deliver unless your combination is perfect.

irrellevant, using a 89mm will give you more capacity
Is the extra 40cc more capacity is worth the inferior bearings & inferior rod ratio.
Not to mention the better crank that doesn’t seem to have the same harmonic issues.

The thread has turned into something for once :).

Harmonics can come from anywhere,

If I was to do a sleeved b20 build, i'd do a tall teck with an 85mm bore and a 98mm stroke. Custom pistons with the pin raised as far as possible and running a rod as long as possible. I put together something that I calculated one night from curiosity, it's doable but the pistons will need a fair bit of insight to design, everything else is pretty much available easily.

This is comparing a typical ~135kw b20vtec build to what my program spat out for the figures of my combo; (assuming a 300cfm flowing head)

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/362/b20vsb20race.th.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/b20vsb20race.jpg/)

For those who can't read the graph, the bottom lines is the torque and HP output of the ~130kw b20v. (red and light blue is the big b20, light green and dark blue is the ~130kw b)

edit: Yes, restrictive exhausts lead to detonation on any engine, not just b20's, the increase in backpressure means that some exahaust gas may find it's way back into the chamber again and the rest is downhill..

The longer the stroke, the greater the problem with harmonics
The higher the power output, the greater the problem with harmonics
The higher the rpm the greater the problem with harmonics
Balancing helps… & lightweight parts can help in an effort to push the resonant frequency beyond the rev range.
So for high output B-series applications, reducing one pasts propensity to exasperating the harmonic problem of the engine seems obvious, particularly with the change is a positive on three fronts & a negative on only 1.
Better bearings, rod ratio, harmonics V 40cc
Increasing the stroke on a high rpm engine is a less than considered approach.

Re exhaust flow…
Actually a more efficient exhaust means you need less total advance to produce best power. The reverse is true when an exhaust system is restrictive. The same is true of the intake.
Volumetric efficiency is reduced by a drop in efficiency & because of this less charge enters the cylinder.
If compression remains the same, more total advance is required because the dynamic compression is reduced.
The exhaust leaves of it’s own accord & some may be left behind.
But it never left & then came back. LOL
Anyway…

for added peace of mind if youre so worried about harmonics? ati fluid dampers
http://www.atiracing.com/products/dampers/charts/damhonda.htm
Fluidampr is another excellent brand

Ewen, the 98mm stroke build in the previous page had a long rod that made the rod ratio something like 1.52 which will show acceptable wear. I would go 84x95mm tall deck. 92mm will buzz harder but we all know rpm is teh devil.
With a 98mm stroke the pistons are still going to flog out because it’s got a 98mm stroke.
Rod ratio is irrelevant, this just tells you where the power is going to arrive best & how you aught to tune the thing.
& even with 95mm stoke in a dart tall deck, you still have to graunch big cut-out into the bottom of the bore to clear the rods & say goodbye to the piston under crown cooling jets.

Are there any sleeving specialists in aust that u builders would trust ?
We have a number of engines out there that are sleeved locally with no reliability issues.

Chr1s

05-07-2010, 12:30 AM

Nice input Adrian, it's nice to see someone not agreeing all the time, it's the beauty of human life is it not? different views and all.

The 340hp calculated engine I did has nothing to compare with 40cc, let alone it's not even a 2.0L anymore, it's a 2300cc combination. The harmonics caused I beleive are negligable and that motor combination is very doable, if your logic sticks to plan, the mighty K series will turn its arse to bits if spun hard with their 99mm stroke or whatever it is, my donk I learnt on had a stroke in the 1000s and people spin them to 9500rpm while putting down 350hp at the tyre happily in new zealand sprint cars, but lets keep this b series related, i'm just putting it out there. The harmonic at the end of the day, is unavoidable, but can be minimised.

If you want to take the route of running less stroke and doing the rest to reduce the negative effect of the harmonic, well I don't see high output being possible with a reducing displacement.

Exhaust gas never coming back in the chamber? Umm, overlap? I think we're talking about different things and yes I agree with you 100% about the efficiency effects and pretty much in a nutshell, greater backpressure = harder for exhaust gas to evacuate.

The 98mm stroke build is possible, I wouldn't bother running oil squirters anyway, the pistons can handle the heat just fine, i'd rather maintain my oil stability and reduce slight pumping losses. Rod ratio will tell you where power is? So what if I had an engine with a rod ratio of 1.9 and a restrictive camshaft? When I see higher rod ratio numbers, I associate it with a motor than can carry the torque as the RPMs increase as there is less sidewall loading as a result the vector loading on the bearings is minimised, what do you think of when looking at a rod ratio number? (in detail please!)

Block notching, I don't mind this, there is actually less friction at that point but obviously more loading since the surface area is minimised. It's all one big tradeoff as you said earlier, minimise one thing, increase the other.

Keep this going, it's good :)

ewendc2r

05-07-2010, 05:30 AM

Now we're talking! Thanks Adrian..

Hmm .. I'll consider the itr crank again now...

Adrian - also been advised to sleeve a b18c so I can retain the stock girdle and have a vtec block without risk of leaks... Apparently there are also dramas associated with sleeving a b20 due to different construction and wall thickness.. I like the Dan benson approach of removing the top half of the cylinders then installl a stepped sleeve which locates itself onto the original bored out cylinder half way down... Proper heat based install too rather than pressed.. Avoids issue of dropping sleeves. Only otherway is to slightly taper the bore?

With regards to exhaust since we want to maintain high velocity to create torque, I'd imagine the restriction in my 4:1 header bs big tube would promote mid range torque with limit on top end power ... Ie reach maximum velocity at a lower rpm due to increased displacement and aggressive head pattern?

Reason I wasn't concerned about oversized intake valve was that the examples I've seen show the engine needs about 80% exhaust flow compared with intake (due to atmospheric pressure dragging intake charge In compared with force acted upon exhaust gas exiting and heat of charge.. It seemed some of the heads responded well to the additional intake flow capability while maintaining exhaust around the same to increase effectiveness of the cycle? This is a ported head and alaniz was going to supply .5mm oversize on his intake valves too???

Benson

05-07-2010, 08:38 AM

Damn you guys are getting way tooo technical. Just keep the build simple and learn of other ppl in the states or locally that has done it. There is no need to be creative when it comes to an engine build, unless you want to throw thousands of dollars out the window and look forward to dissapointment.

As for headers, 4-2-1 or 4-1 same deal. If the headers isnt designed well, then both will make poor power. Check out those cheap Tri-Y's. They are the best bang for buck headers out there. Works very well on most b20vtec

tinkerbell

05-07-2010, 09:57 AM

Do you give it a hard time reguarly or do you putt around town and only give it on the track???

I won the 2007 NSW Supersprint Championship in Class 3B with it.

tinkerbell

05-07-2010, 10:10 AM

Now we're talking! Thanks Adrian..

Hmm .. I'll consider the itr crank again now...

just build a B18CR engine...

With regards to exhaust since we want to maintain high velocity to create torque, I'd imagine the restriction in my 4:1 header bs big tube would promote mid range torque with limit on top end power ... Ie reach maximum velocity at a lower rpm due to increased displacement and aggressive head pattern?

you will need a custom header designed for your combination to produce the best results.

Reason I wasn't concerned about oversized intake valve was

oversized valves reduce your camshaft options, is that really worth it?

Chr1s

05-07-2010, 07:25 PM

I had a look at the head his looking at, it's certainly a hardcore head, i'd stick to standard valves, 0.5mm+ at most so I can retain the adjustability and cam choice, but whats done is done.

I agree, if your really paranoid, rebuild your B18CR as I did mention :p

ewendc2r

05-07-2010, 10:24 PM

Apparently guy who was using it had no clearance issues up to skunk2pro1 so that's likely what I'll use to be on safe side.. Still plenty aggressive. Only intake valve is oversize, I hear main issues come from both valves being oversizsed.. Not saying it isn't close though.

Chr1s

05-07-2010, 11:35 PM

There's a fair few people who get custom ground intake cam to accomodate more clearance for cam gear tuning later on, but you'll be fine..

There's a stroker motor running the same spec head with pro3's putting down like 300whp.

GSi_PSi

06-07-2010, 12:06 AM

man people get way to technical , just build your engine dont look to great into this ratio and this ratio, its not a racecar which will see 10,000rpm constantly, build your motor, tune it properly and call it a day.

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 06:47 AM

It's ok to want to understand things ... I was advised to research, now I'm researching too much?

TODA AU

06-07-2010, 08:22 AM

There's a fair few people who get custom ground intake cam to accomodate more clearance for cam gear tuning later on, but you'll be fine..
Cough... Bullshit!
LOL

man people get way to technical , just build your engine dont look to great into this ratio and this ratio, its not a racecar which will see 10,000rpm constantly, build your motor, tune it properly and call it a day.
If you don't pay attention to finer details, you end up with very mediocre performance.
Ask Tinkerbell if he wasted any time working stuff out on his latest build...
Slap it & you get a 120kw dud, or do it right & there's 30+kw there for the taking.
It's all about combination & the devil is in the detail.
Nothing mentioned so far is in anyway "too technical"; far from it...
Deliberatly vauge would be more to the point.

It's ok to want to understand things ... I was advised to research, now I'm researching too much?
Unfortunatly the internet gives people with no idea the same credibility as those who may well be experts
I hope you havn't spent any money on parts yet....
If you have, I'm sorry but you are heading towards building a dud.
Anyway, 1st thing. You need to sort out your cam choice & the rest swings around that.
Currently you have chosen poorly.

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 09:38 AM

Adrian -- Can you care to explain why based on what you know about the proposed build?

Benson says -- Do your research and copy setups in the USA that have proven to work.. His setup works obviously. The setup I am proposing has been used also, with success?

After trolling through the all motor threads the get an idea of power levels and builds required, I see that the most effective builds with over 12:1 compression, all have ported heads & big cams for the 2L (still with max power around 8800-8900rpm)..

No I haven't bought anything yet but am very close .. I'd like to understand why you think this build will be a dud?!

The people I am 'relying' on seem to have considerable credibility and have been around building engines in the states for a long time? (DonF is one, I'm sure you've come across his posts in Honda-Tech?)

Chr1s

06-07-2010, 10:19 AM

Cough... Bullshit!
LOL

hahah piss off stronzo :p

GSi_PSi

06-07-2010, 12:52 PM

lol DonF didnt he steal one guys block and never give it back

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 01:00 PM

Lol might have saw something about that .. Who knows.. But no disputing he knows his shit..

it seems what is being suggested is to build something mediocre rather than great? Benson I thought you had a fairly opened up head? I'm trying to figure out where you guys think I am going wrong? Hmmmm.. Seems stock heads just don't do the b20 capacity justice......

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 01:18 PM

you need a proper plan.

you still seem to be feeling around for stuff. but you need to set a specific goal and work from there...

Chr1s

06-07-2010, 01:56 PM

I don't think were getting that technical, there is alot of things we overlook when picking combinations.

I'm seriously always learning, I don't think there is ever a time where I put together a combo and leave it at that, i'm always adjusting it as I go along. But this is for the big builds, the small street stuff is not too bad. I think it's part of our nature as Australians, not that we're Australian by blood, alot of us are from all over the world but our attitude in this country we don't like to just copy and follow others. I know for fact that Australian engineers are held up highly in the world for our work ethic. Maybe this is why we always like to get to the nitty gritty of the engine?

I still want to keep it technical, so lets kick off another topic.

What is your experiance with setting the camshafts? Do you always degree them and leave them and play slightly on the dyno? Do you have a specific ballpark setup that you choose and adjust it again on the dyno?

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 02:06 PM

What is your experiance with setting the camshafts? Do you always degree them and leave them and play slightly on the dyno? Do you have a specific ballpark setup that you choose and adjust it again on the dyno?

camshafts should be degreed in and then P2V and V2V clearance checked before final head installation... the cams should be re-degreed once the final installation is complete.

any 'playing' on the dyno should be minimal, however, the expected 'playing' zone should also be included in the P2V and V2V clearance checking noted above.

any high-lift/long-duration camshaft must have clearances checked - regardless of anything that may have been 'read' regarding other peoples setups...

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 02:09 PM

P2V = piston to valve
V2V = valve to valve
P2H = piston to head

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 03:09 PM

Ok I thought I had planned my build? Maybe I hadn't informed you ..

As there are discrepancies with US power readings I have generally gone on shape of dyno curve & quarter mile times where relevant ... Anyhow I've tried to keep the info as usable / comparable as possible.

As far as the bottom end goes, ITR Crank - Carillo Pro-A Rods - Endyn Pistons (12-13:1). Wasn't sure about bearings yet, some swear by the OEM ones which retain oil very well due to their design .. (not going into it).. Not sure if ACL are similar. Machining is obviously important and the relevant measurements will be made and nothing will be rushed -- I just need a good machinist and someone who has lots of experience sleeving without problems. The central recommendation seems to be build a bored B18c so I retain the factory VTEC oil passages and reduce risk of leakages etc.. Also I then retain the stock Girdle and oil jets (not necessary for forged, but I'll take them all the same -- unless they can radically effect oil pressure??)

Head - This is the powerhouse. And why I don't understand my comments above mean I'm building a dud ... Endyn Head with full valvetrain (nitrate coated ss valves 1mm oversize intake only, double springs, tit retainers etc .. the usual) and full endyn polish / port. Combustion chambers reshaped and cnc'd to 84.5mm, cold welded blah blah blah .. The full gig. Now, with the compression of the bottom end, I've been advised that I should use a pretty big cam, but not too crazy (i.e. not S2P3 which are maassiive but S2P1 are likely a very good compromise)..

The b16 head & b18 head are designed for a certain flow rate of exhaust / intake mixture or gases.. The reading I've done suggests that for a 2L they really benefit from being opened up and further advances since the head was designed 15 years ago or so including changing the combustion chamber and deshrouding valves etc etc ...

With stock head it seems max output is around the 200whp (US), with cams and stock ports its around 220whp. Now for the interesting bit .. With stock head and S2P2 cams, around 210-220whp but as soon as the chambers are opened up and ports, well, ported, increases are seen all over the sheet (ie avg horsepower increase, not just peak)..

I always thought that max torque is where max VE is reached in an engine.. Obviously, the cams play a large part in determining where VEmax is.. I'm not looking to build a 10,000rpm 2L engine (although, I would think it could do on occasion without dramas) but something that will develop power to around 8800rpm.. Happy with a limiter around 9200rpm -- Compromise on ring wear and peak power levels..

From the dyno's I've seen, the S2P1 cam seems to provide a very usable power curve all the way to 8500rpm.. And then hold for a couple of hundred rpm in some cases (not sure how?) before trailing away slowly.. Of course --- These ALL have the RIGHT supporting boltons ie tri y and velocity stack style intakes usually with single throttle body (68mm to 70mm) .. I am making do with what I have FOR THE TIME BEING i.e. Until I establish a base level to improve from.

I don't see where I am shortcutting anything and/or what I am doing wrong with the head choice? Nor do I see where I am going wrong with the short block ? I am in essence, copying what a lot of high output engines in the states are using (and I have avoided Drag or RACE ONLY setups who go even further again)...

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 03:12 PM

Regards timing -- For some of the bigger cams (again, i.e. S2P2) they seem to use around 4-5 degrees of separation .. ie. +1 +5 .. But is this from 'zero' or from where the cams where originally degreed in?

If you have a certain amount of adjustability is the only reason to adjust them initially to create a 'zero' point that is closer to optimal than otherwise?

This is one area I haven't read a great deal into.. But the bloke with the head said there will be no v2v interference with S2P1 at 0/0 setting but will definitely benefit by tuning on dyno and adjusting.

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 03:30 PM

hmmm, that is not really a "plan" though is it?

of note, 1mm oversize valves and Skunk 2 Pro cams? the spec sheet states:

WARNING!!
• It is the responsibility of the engine builder or end user to check all clearances when using high lift camshafts.
• Pro Series Stage I camshafts are not emissions legal.
• DO NOT use oversized valves.
• DO NOT increase overlap over specifications below.

and that is just for the Pro1's, the pro2's and Pro3's carry the same warning...

http://www.skunk2.com/installation/305-05-5140.pdf

i.e. a "plan" will include aims, budgets, specifications etc... not half just a list of parts...

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 03:42 PM

....

And there is also a huge amount of feedback saying that although Skunk2 says not to use them, they still work with the right setup.. If i'm not absolutely sure about what I am doing you can bet your bottom dollar I'll get someone to do it for me. But they do it, and it works.. They're experience indicates problems with anything over 1.5mm (or say, 1mm intake, .5mm exhaust .. too much) .. As before, not saying there is 'much' clearance... but it is there.

Look -- Aside from my budget the above should be able to indicate if the build is a dud or not surely? i.e If I gave those parts to someone like Adrian to assemble, would it still be a dud? Therefore are you saying the extra 20kw comes down to assembly? And if so, if I'm not in a mad rush to get it in the car, surely I have the resources to make sure any machining is exactly how I need it and can talk to the right people in the industry.. Unless its some kind of black magic?

I've built 2 engines before, given not performance but they are still running today years after I built them (maybe 6 years?) .. Its not like a pick up a socket and ask 'whats this?'

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 03:50 PM

OK, so you need to ask yourself 'why' you need oversize valves.

for example, there are loads of setups running stock valves, what is it about your goal/aims that mean you need to go bigger, and will using them will compromise your other goals/aims, e.g. streetability & reliability

then if you do fully consider that you need them, then you need to plan out what other components are required to create the 'right' combination.

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 03:53 PM

I've built 2 engines before, given not performance but they are still running today years after I built them (maybe 6 years?) .. Its not like a pick up a socket and ask 'whats this?'

there is a vast difference between "putting together an engine" to "blueprinting an engine" (which is what you will be doing with what you are proposing...)

e.g. what piston to wall clearance did you use? what were your bearing clearances? what ring gaps did you use? etc etc

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 04:03 PM

I didn't .. Just went oversize and away we went.. But I have the right equipment to make all the measurements... Except plastigauge..

Reason for oversized intake is to compliment intake port flow on higher displacement engines with big cams that need efficient quick intake charge?? Taken, the head is cheaaap.. And was built on a 92mm stroke short engine with slightly bigger capacity.. Which may need slightly larger intake flow capability.. Have to be better than a non cnced b16 head in any case ..

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 04:09 PM

Reason for oversized intake is to compliment intake port flow on higher displacement engines with big cams that need efficient quick intake charge?? Taken, the head is cheaaap.. And was built on a 92mm stroke short engine with slightly bigger capacity.. Which may need slightly larger intake flow capability.. Have to be better than a non cnced b16 head in any case ..

so you are just guessing? refer back to post #561 - it contains some very crucial advice...

Touge Tom

06-07-2010, 04:12 PM

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 04:21 PM

no one is forcing you guys to be reading threads in the "Technical" forum are they? if it is too technical for you , feel free to not reply :)

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 04:23 PM

no one is forcing you guys to be reading threads in the "Technical" forum are they? if it is too technical for you , feel free to not reply :)

Well said!

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 04:25 PM

I will read further and respond.. Thanks for being the devils advocate

Touge Tom

06-07-2010, 04:36 PM

with all whats being said how come no one's brought up the issue of piston throw weight. and at what point of the rev range this begin's to happen? i'm not to sure but around 6k right?

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 04:44 PM

with all whats being said how come no one's brought up the issue of piston throw weight.

i'd love to know more???

Touge Tom

06-07-2010, 04:48 PM

i'd love to know more???

i believe its'the point of mean piston speed when the force of the piston travelling upwards is much greater (X2? or X3?) then the piston travelling downwards.

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 04:56 PM

I've heard something about this .. Never understood it .. But I thought it was more like 9100rpm or something in B18CR... Some honda vdc2r video from Honda Engineers

Chr1s

06-07-2010, 05:17 PM

ewendc2r

06-07-2010, 05:23 PM

Tinkerbell one question -- Are you building your new engine, or is a 'builder' doing it for you?

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 06:46 PM

affirmative - I have 'built' the engine myself, i am waiting to place it in my car... it will be installed in the next fortnight (pending arrival of a few parts - dizzy cap, cam bolts and oil cooler parts)...

(check the 'new mods' thread on CITR for some info...)

EDIT - but i could not have done it without the massive support and advice from Adrian (who is a 'builder')... I hope my 'combination' is a successful one...

tinkerbell

06-07-2010, 06:50 PM

Tinkerbell, I meant more the retarding and advancing of both cams and their effect on the engine and what is deemed to be found as a "trend" in honda engines, particular B series. Not so much clearances, that's preliminary work.

cam gear adjustment is not a 'trend' - it is a long established method of fine tuning...

degreeing cams to spec gets them as close as possible to optimum position, then work from there, once degreed, it depends on how the engine reacts and then adjustment is made accordingly...

if the owner wants a particular outcome, e.g. top end power, then the cam gears can be adjusted to achieve this, if the owner wants more midrange, this can be achieved too... (provided the 'combination' is right)

to answer your question, the "specific ballpark" is the cam card specs...

ewendc2r

07-07-2010, 12:42 PM

TB -- Ok. So you built yours, relying on advice from others as well.

I don't understand what makes you so different to me (or others contemplating a build?) in terms of:

1) Seeking advice if any doubt,
2) Confirming steps along the way
3) Experienced builders offering 'pearls of wisdom' that come with the profession,

Are you going to share your experience and anything that it usually overlooked?

It seems the ones with real knowledge aren't prepared to really share it (on a forum at least or are concerned that because the process IS repeatable that they may lose business).. My point is this.. We all seem to be a helpful bunch and I appreciate those with experience taking time out to comment from time-time where appropriate (I don't take it as a given!).. But rather than you are heading for disaster or 'the attention is in the detail' .. Can we elaborate a little further? i.e. I posted an article How to build a 2L Engine. It seemed thorough, the only comment was from Chris saying that Larry does a good article.. Is this article thorough enough to go over building an engine? If not, can the experienced guys comment as to what is missed (if something specific) or 'follow that to the 't' and you should get a good result?'

I have plenty of time to build the engine -- I am not in a rush. So everything will be planned and done with plenty of re-measuring and confirming prior to action.. If I am patient, listen to others advice, etc .. Why can't I hope for the same outcome as you?

I am happy to pay for experience - I understand time is money. But I also want to learn & understand why all these little things add up to signficant gains..

ALSO -- When it comes to bearings and required thicknesses.. Do you sand the bearing down a few thou if required (can't be accurate?!) or do you have access to multiple sets of bearings to get the correct thickness exactly?

Adrian, Chris, TB -- Thanks for your input. I'm not trying to be 'difficult' or unappreciative. Just want to learn :)

camo9999

07-07-2010, 12:51 PM

any tips on wat i need to do besides the oil conversion kit with a b20b block and my b18 head put in a eg already got my old lume setup and everything wich is b series does it all fit up and wat modifcations and parts do i need to change cheers

tinkerbell

07-07-2010, 12:53 PM

It seems the ones with real knowledge aren't prepared to really share it (on a forum at least or are concerned that because the process IS repeatable that they may lose business)..

it is good to see that you have recognised this factor.

When it comes to bearings and required thicknesses.. Do you sand the bearing down a few thou if required (can't be accurate?!) or do you have access to multiple sets of bearings to get the correct thickness exactly?

OK, so you kinda need to start with basics, and Q&A on a forum is NOT the place for that...

google is the place for that.

you say you *found* larrys BTTB article - but by the above bearing question you seem to have not actually read every word of it... have you?

have you also read this one: http://www.theoldone.com/articles/Larryscivic/Larrys_Civic.htm

what about http://forums.evans-tuning.com/viewtopic.php?t=326

and now i am just spoon feeding you....

GOOGLE! then get one-on-one with a 'builder' and discuss...

tinkerbell

07-07-2010, 12:54 PM

any tips on wat i need to do

read this thread from page 1 is first my tip... and click on the links that have been posted in it is my second tip...

ewendc2r

07-07-2010, 01:00 PM

LOL ^^^ Beat me to it.

TB -- Thanks for that, No i hadn't read those articles yet... they look very interesting / detailed. Perhaps we can put up a resource sticky for all these types of links that people may find useful?? Or are they a bit technical for the majority?

And my primary research isn't forums, its google hah .. I just am cautious of wasting people like Adrian and Chris time as I know they must be very busy...

I am quite happy to waste yours though TB LOL

thanks again - will come back after more reading.

Chr1s

07-07-2010, 11:20 PM

Meh I got nothing to loose.

Ewem, I told you that you are more than capable of building an engine if you do enough research, and by the sounds of your car/history with it, i'd like to see you attempt to build your own. If it's the last time/thing for this car, why not make it a memorable one? From the sounds of things, it didnt sound like you were going to have this chance again for a while - but I may be wrong.

TB - holy shit my friend, I didn't know evans had that kind of thread, that IS a spoonfeeder LOL. I must say I don't really troll his forums, i've heard some good stuff about them though.

mocchi

07-07-2010, 11:22 PM

ewendc2r

08-07-2010, 12:09 AM

Yeah I think I will just need to re-think goals and take peoples advice in terms of cam choice, but from my research, my cam choice is Skunk 2 Pro 1 :

http://specs.jazzproparts.com/wiki/Image:B_Series_Pro_DOHC_Vtec_specs.gif

Rocket M22X:

m22x: INTAKE lift - 12.1 mm, duration 244 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.1 mm, duration 244 @ 1mm

Toda B / C:

- Spec B's

INTAKE lift - 12 mm, duration 255 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12mm, duration 245 @1mm

- Spec C's

INTAKE lift - 12.5 mm, duration 255 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.5mm, duration 255 @1mm

Compared to: ITR Specs

Int-243 dur. / 11.5mm lift
Exh-235 dur. / 10.5mm lift

Now I keep hearing something about toda and jun being very hard on the rockers? high wear? or is this a bullshit rumour/****up on someones install etc. ??

Also my understanding is longer duration generally means high powerband and high lift also encourages power at high rpm ... beyond that i gotta lot more readin to do.

TODA AU

08-07-2010, 07:07 AM

Adrian, Chris, TB -- Thanks for your input. I'm not trying to be 'difficult' or unappreciative. Just want to learn :)
NP, I'd like to waste all day on line, but I can't.
If you're stuck, by all means, pick up the phone & call.
I'll type the odd long winded reply when I have a chance.

Now I keep hearing something about toda and jun being very hard on the rockers? high wear? or is this a bullshit rumour/****up on someones install etc. ??

More bullshit... TODA cams work & they last.

Unusual wear in the rocker / head area points at oil control issues & the 1st place to look is the spray bars & or the centre dowel & o-ring under #3 cam cap.

Ewen, are you going to retain your std ITR intake manifold & throttle?

Chr1s

08-07-2010, 08:46 AM

I'm using a 68mm throttle a victor X on my current build :eek:. Lets see how she likes it!

string

08-07-2010, 10:46 AM

man evan has plenty of videos on youtube, how to swap lsd for example.

...in which he advocates not bothering shimming the diff correctly because he hasn't had any problems so far...

tinkerbell

08-07-2010, 10:52 AM

hey string - know much abt the 'piston throw weight' point? in post #584

Chr1s

08-07-2010, 11:27 AM

I'm going to have a troll through some books I have here, it doesn't ring a bell though.

Chr1s

08-07-2010, 11:47 AM

I'm going to take a stab in the dark.

Piston throw weight - to me implies the weight of the piston above the pin which can be "thrown" around as such. At x amount of engine speed, the rotating components way more, alot more infact and at mean piston speed of say 25m/s, the g's on the interals are huge, this would mean that the throw weight of the piston would be alot heavier resulting in a greater force to move this weight, hence the greater force on the upwards motion of the piston. I don't know how the figures, 3x and 2x come about, but that's how I interpret it. Also may have something to do with intertia and resistance to change in direction.

There was a guy on here who pulled out a huge amount of physics related stuff once about rod bolts, what was his username? I think it was string actually.

ewendc2r

08-07-2010, 12:04 PM

Thanks for that. I will be using the stock IM / TB initially although I may get the TB bored (or buy a different one depending on price) -- I hear anywhere from 65mm - 70mm being used, with 68mm being most common. The Victor X is meant to produce good results, although the same can be said for a ported ITR IM (with a lot of meat taken out of it).

Are you hinting that even though the head may flow big numbers, I wouldn't have the IM / TB combo to support and that may mean restriction in IM then reduced velocity due to bigger ports etc? (i.e. I understand that

Adrian -- My Stage 1 was to re-use my current bolt-ons as fitted to the DC2R including clutch / flywheel / s300, exhaust / intake etc .. But if there is a 'Necessary' then I have to consider it in stage 1...

Stage 2 would be address bolt ons based on dyno result, restrictions etc ..

Priority is to build the engine -- I can upgrade other parts as I need to.. Just want to get the long block 'right' .. easier to change bolt ons than pistons/rods.. waiting on detailed info about the head as well..

Adrian -- Might give you a call later today if you have 5 mins for me to bounce some thoughts off ..

tinkerbell

08-07-2010, 12:07 PM

Priority is to build the engine -- I can upgrade other parts as I need to.. Just want to get the long block 'right' .. easier to change bolt ons than pistons/rods.. waiting on detailed info about the head as well..

this mentality is counter-productive.

the longblock will be 'right' ONLY if it is matched to other components.

it is the C word again...

ewendc2r

08-07-2010, 12:38 PM

tinkerbell

08-07-2010, 12:42 PM

Ok so lets talk about the difference between using ported IM/68mmTB/BigTubeHeaders-70mm exhaust on the setup

what setup??????

as far as i can see there is no setup!!!

ewendc2r

08-07-2010, 12:46 PM

Man ...

Damn work getting in the way of my forum trolling lol ..

I'll get back to you shortly.

cotties

08-07-2010, 12:51 PM

Piston throw weight is important at very high rpm
With a high comp b20 vtec piston to head clearence is very small

This is all explained in one of the articles at theoldone.com
Basically they made a fully build b20 rev to 10000 rpm with all the best components rods etc
They found that due to the small clearence that at that speed the rods where actually stretching due to the piston throw weight and the piston smashed into head and rooted the engine on there engine dyno
So if you think about it a small relatively small mass of a piston to have so much force to stretch a high tensile rod

tinkerbell

08-07-2010, 01:30 PM

Piston throw weight is important at very high rpm
With a high comp b20 vtec piston to head clearence is very small

so 'piston throw weight' is just about 'rod stretch' is it?

cotties

08-07-2010, 02:18 PM

As far as I know someone else may correct me though

ewendc2r

08-07-2010, 09:51 PM

Thats more of a clearance issue though isn't it? I mean, they decked the block in that build with a very fine p2h clearance (or was it p2v?) -- A few more thou and he thinks he would've been ok ... i.e. lesson was to build that stretch into the tolerance..

Touge Tom

08-07-2010, 11:20 PM

so 'piston throw weight' is just about 'rod stretch' is it?

piston throw weight would also affect torque /power figure's due to the fact that considering there is now more kinetic energy acting on the piston in the upwards motion, away from the crank rather then the force pushing down on the crank to make the torquing/ rotational motion to turn the wheel's.

so when looking at a dyno graph. and the point at which the torque begins to drop. i think this would be that particular motor's piston throw weight point. and using lighter weight pistons would shift this point higher up in the rev range.obviously holding the torque longer to make more power. considering the piston weight is now less.

TODA AU

09-07-2010, 08:08 AM

Ok so lets talk about the difference between using ported IM/68mmTB/BigTubeHeaders-70mm exhaust on the setup vs stock ITR IM/63?mmTB/

a little off topic ... But a restrictive header or intake would act as a restrictor i.e. limit hp but not torque?? so, theoretically (and maybe this is where i am going all wrong) by using my current bolt ons I would limit peak output to max flow capability of current boltons. so Torque may taper off instead of building at high rpm?

i.e. Can we discuss, what effect on torque curve will restrictive bolt ons create?

TB -- I've sent you a pm.

Your OEM intake manifold & throttle are good for 240hp at the engine (unmodified)

A restrictive header or intake will act as a restrictor - Yes
But the same effect is found using intakes & or exhaust components that are too big.

Eg: With a big ported B-series head to get the most out of it, you start needing some extraordinary lengths to pick up the air speed. (Intake & exhaust)
However when std valve sizes are used with clever porting the same or higher peak power & torque can be seen with more finness.

Regarding bolt-on on a big motor core...
If the intake or exhaust is wrong, the power will flat line...
If it's really wrong it'll loose power on a really late Vtec swap.
When it's right the Vtec swap is around 5~5500rpm near where your peak torque should be.

TODA AU

09-07-2010, 08:12 AM

piston throw weight would also affect torque /power figure's due to the fact that considering there is now more kinetic energy acting on the piston in the upwards motion, away from the crank rather then the force pushing down on the crank to make the torquing/ rotational motion to turn the wheel's.

so when looking at a dyno graph. and the point at which the torque begins to drop. i think this would be that particular motor's piston throw weight point. and using lighter weight pistons would shift this point higher up in the rev range.obviously holding the torque longer to make more power. considering the piston weight is now less.

& the crankshaft counter weight's role in life is?

Have you got another term to describe what you're talking about?
Also the point where an engine starts to drop torque can be shifted readily with changes in volumetric efficency.
Be that component selection or engine set up or tuning.
(2nd order Harmonics are generally the biggest issue with large inline 4cyl engines)

Chr1s

09-07-2010, 08:46 AM

ewendc2r

09-07-2010, 01:53 PM

Thanks Adrian -- that clears things up for me nicely.

I've also noted that a lot of people (ok, some people) are using ITR Exhaust camshaft and a more aggressive intake cam ... As the majority of flow occurs as the valve opens (from my understanding) or at least the highest velocity, can you compensate for valve size with cam selection? i.e. a cam with slightly less duration / lift with an equally aggressive ramp rate?

Samm928

09-07-2010, 04:13 PM

KLR-16a. your pm box is full.

Touge Tom

10-07-2010, 12:52 AM

I agree with Adrian. I can't see how it's
possible that the 'throw weight' of the piston governs the point of max tq/hp. That contradicts the idea of camshaft: manifolds, etc.

So nobody has heard of this term? i know it doe's not govern the total out come. but is a factor. i believe toda au is correct. and i did say (a particular motor's) piston throw weight point. but what i don't get is that the piston will travel much further distance than a counter weight attach'd to the crank. so logically the piston would have more effect on the crank than the counter weight. right?

ewendc2r

10-07-2010, 01:06 AM

What are the other pistons / rods doing? As long as they are equal weight and equal compression / combustion force then they should counteract each other to some extent.. ?

tinkerbell

12-07-2010, 09:54 AM

What are the other pistons / rods doing? As long as they are equal weight and equal compression / combustion force then they should counteract each other to some extent.. ?

FWIW - the only stuff i found on the "piston throw weight" related to non-internally balanced engines. Honda B series are internally balanced.

riruiz_88

14-08-2010, 10:45 AM

so whats the go with choosing the right timing belt. i will be running B16A water pump, B16A oil pump, B18C cam gears. should i be using a B16 timing belt or B18C timing belt?

Chr1s

14-08-2010, 05:31 PM

For a B20 with vtec items you NEED a B18 VTEC timing belt,

B16 is too short and non vtec B18 has the wrong tooth count.

one more chance

14-08-2010, 09:54 PM

this thread has been a good read..

can you guys suggest/recommend a good shop/garage/mechanic who can build a B20 in bris?

cheers

riruiz_88

15-08-2010, 08:37 AM

^^^ hi power racing has built a b20vtec a while ago for their track car, give them a call.

but i will stilll be safe to use B16 water pump and oil pump with B18C timing belt?
i heard that all B water and oil pumps have the same teeth is this true?

Chr1s

15-08-2010, 10:52 AM

Yeah its fine

Any VTEC items with the longer B18 VTEC belt is all good

raafscooter

16-08-2010, 06:40 AM

Thanks guys, this topic is great, keep all the good info comming.
Just got myself a new engine for my car but was looking at a b20b8/vtec build..

tinkerbell

16-08-2010, 10:15 AM

but i will stilll be safe to use B16 water pump and oil pump with B18C timing belt?

yes, VTEC with VTEC & non-VTEC with non-VTEC, the answer is that the VTEC water pump has 22 tooths, and the non-VTEC has only 19 tooths.

but B16A timing belt is useless for frankies, as the B16A block is 7mm shorter than a B18C or B18/B20

i heard that all B water and oil pumps have the same teeth is this true?

no that is false. see above re. water pumps.

plus Honda oil pumps dont have teeth.

pinoy-boi

26-08-2010, 01:13 PM

so is it bad 2 use a 19 toothed water pump?

riruiz_88

26-08-2010, 02:21 PM

i have read that it is, since it has less teeth it would spin at a faster rate. but this isnt good, as it would be spinning too fast to actually pump the coolant.

pinoy-boi

26-08-2010, 02:25 PM

ahhh ic, ive just had my b20 rebuilt and the builder wasnt sure which water pump 2 use, im sure he said he used the 19 toothed pump. should i replace it with the 22 toothed pump?

Chr1s

26-08-2010, 04:18 PM

I think the question is, how hard are you going to rev?

The 19T water pump will cavitate at higher RPMs.

GSi_PSi

26-08-2010, 04:37 PM

why did you rebuild your motor.? wasnt it that 999automotive b20?

string

26-08-2010, 06:23 PM

If a B18CR spins to 8700rpm with a 22 tooth pump, a 19 tooth pump will be spinning at the same rate at 7500rpm. Are the impellers the same? No idea.

pinoy-boi

27-08-2010, 12:50 PM

@chr1s only revs to 8500rpm.

@gsi-psi yeh it was, (they f*cked me over though with pricing). head was f*cked and then had 2 replace some valves and then found out the block had a slight crack in it between cyl 2 & 3.. costing me 10k (crazy i know)

GSi_PSi

27-08-2010, 02:55 PM

hmmm in your next build maybe just use a stock b20 crank, B18CR crank more wear and tear in the upper rpms,

Chr1s

27-08-2010, 03:48 PM

If your spinning to 8500 change that water pump..

fatboyz39

27-08-2010, 03:59 PM

Yeap change the pump to 22T one. Autospares should carry them ~$80-$100?

pinoy-boi

01-09-2010, 01:36 PM

engine is already built waiting to go into the car, il have 2 call the engine builder and ask if he can change it, he will also have 2 change the timing belt aswell

hisoka

01-09-2010, 04:27 PM

what you do with your old engine pinoy or you rebuilt old one ?

never see you around, what you break up with your girlfriend

pinoy-boi

01-09-2010, 04:34 PM

lol, yeh rebuilt the old engine, had 2 get a new block though. u havent seen me around coz i havent had my car for 8 weeks lol.

and thats my mates GF, he owns the silver EH lol

na-118

01-09-2010, 10:31 PM

probably not the right thread to post this questions but im going to give it a go LOL
would a b18c7 crank fit into b16a block, without any modifications and changes in compression?

TODA AU

02-09-2010, 06:40 AM

probably not the right thread to post this questions but im going to give it a go LOL
would a b18c7 crank fit into b16a block, without any modifications and changes in compression?
No.

If the crank is used, a change in rod length or compression height of piston or both must be addressed.
Our B16A 1800cc stroker kit does this exactly, retaining the B18C stroke & rod ratio.
All other B16 1800cc+ stroker kits on the market deliver an inferior rod ratio to the original B18C.
You'll get the knockers telling you it's a waste of time, but the kit is very successful in IPRA

tinkerbell

02-09-2010, 10:54 AM

probably not the right thread to post this questions but im going to give it a go LOL
would a b18c7 crank fit into b16a block, without any modifications and changes in compression?

remember that the the B16A block is ~7mm shorter than the B18C and B20B blocks

na-118

03-09-2010, 07:10 PM

Chr1s

03-09-2010, 08:49 PM

What's your goal with the engine?

Most people jump to the forged bottom end boat, which is not always the need. You'll find the average setup out there performs on cast style pistons suited for high comp b20s (RSmachines, etc). One of the main benefits of running a cast piston is the tighter piston-to-bore clearance you can run, in otherwords, it lasts longer. Forged motors need bigger clearances and as a result, don't last as long.

I would save some money and use cast pistons + prepped eagle rods and you will be fine.

TODA AU

03-09-2010, 09:50 PM

Chris, you're talking about cheap US crap...
Our forged pistons run 0.0009" to 0.0011" piston to bore clearence... (same as stock)
We also offer a real 2 year warranty on engine builds with our pistons...
How you going with yours?

newpaddy3

03-09-2010, 10:49 PM

No need for pissing competitions lol

But the Toda blocks do look good.

I'd prefer to pay a little extra for the peace of mind it's been built right.

tinkerbell

04-09-2010, 04:04 PM

planning on doing a b20vtec,
currently looking at a forged bottom end, as it will take time
do you guys who have built b20's in the past reccommend something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Wiseco-Pistons-Eagle-Rods-Acura-Integra-B16-B18-B20-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5acf595d41QQitemZ39002 5796929QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

thanks

yeah - buying packages is sometimes a cheaper way to get parts, you just need to be sure they all are going to be what you need to meet your aims...

i was looking at the K567M845 ones for my engine, but got CP ones instead...

GSi_PSi

04-09-2010, 04:17 PM

whats the go with eagle rods/? ppl always claim they rubbish but are they worse than stock?

GSi_PSi

04-09-2010, 05:06 PM

well i dont see why everything else isnt being attacked? the BYP crew , Dr Honda crew , all build motors out of backyards and garages, so
its not fair singling out chris if your going to address him, should address everybody.
From my experience chris has always gone out of his way to help anyone who has built an engine with him, the countless times me and my cousin have called him about advice or such and he has been there. My engine has been pretty good to me so far, a year and counting, have even taken it to 9300rpm once accidentally.

Anyways this is going quite off topic, this is about B20 discussion not lets talk shit about other people discussion

MikeyG

04-09-2010, 05:29 PM

im fasting also samm

toda i think you should apologize to chr1s... i understand what your saying but there was no need to get abusive.. so what if chr1s does not have any exp or a shop or a t-shirt that states " im a qualifed person " he understands motors and knows what is good and what is bad.

i think thats FAR more better then others who just say this and that but dont have any facts yet chr1s does, he builds motors, he tunes them, customers are happy.

but other then that lets move on one question though toda is there stroker kits for b20s?

Chr1s

04-09-2010, 05:33 PM

As far as I know, TODA don't make any stroker kits for the B20s.

The real boys know how to build motors, and thats the yanks. Eagle, BC, Crower, SCAT, etc and your custom items can be made if you want strokers for a b20.

TODA AU

04-09-2010, 05:53 PM

whats the go with eagle rods/? ppl always claim they rubbish but are they worse than stock?
Lengths should be check as well as B/E & small end bores.
They're not always the same.

TODA AU

04-09-2010, 05:55 PM

but other then that lets move on one question though toda is there stroker kits for b20s?
We usually destroke them...
By all means use a stroker if you want, but it's pretty much a waste of time.
& your engine life will be shorter.

DLO01

04-09-2010, 06:03 PM

Lets all play nice guys.

wynode

04-09-2010, 06:55 PM

Guys leave the SPAM and personal attacks OUT.

tinkerbell

04-09-2010, 11:58 PM

The real boys know how to build motors, and thats the yanks. Eagle, BC, Crower, SCAT, etc and your custom items can be made if you want strokers for a b20.

i am running 1995cc with stock B20 crank and 84.5mm bore with eagle rods and CP pistons...

that's all you need for 150kW+

mnc

05-09-2010, 02:31 AM

TODA AU

05-09-2010, 09:59 AM

do b20 vtec push alot of torque if you do sleeves, pistons, rods, headwork etc?

Because i was planning to do a jdm k20 swap but with that money I was also thinking about rebuilding my b18cr to a b20 built bottom and top.

hrmmm. Very interesting read this thread.
If you've got the money to do it right, yes they can produce very high torque.
Flip side of that is the B18CR that you already have, when sleeved makes a better engine.
So if you can afford to sleeve a block, it seems silly to use the B20 block.

Chr1s

05-09-2010, 11:25 AM

i am running 1995cc with stock B20 crank and 84.5mm bore with eagle rods and CP pistons...

that's all you need for 150kW+

No doubt, but what I was saying was you don't see the japs making 300hp b series firebreathers, well maybe they do and I can't find anything (not that I've tried to be honest) but the yanks are always messing with some stroked big
sleeved motor

tinkerbell

06-09-2010, 11:08 AM

No doubt, but what I was saying was you don't see the japs making 300hp b series firebreathers, well maybe they do and I can't find anything (not that I've tried to be honest) but the yanks are always messing with some stroked big sleeved motor

well, the 'yanks' are all about drag racing, whereas we and the 'japs' are more focused on circuit racing... i think that might assist you in understanding the prevalence of overstroked big sleeved 'firebreathers' in the US of A...

Chr1s

06-09-2010, 04:22 PM

TB, what are you trying to say mate?

We both know what specification is needed for either motor.

The question was raised about stroker cranks, and in mickeys interest, he wants to go fast, so to go fast, we look at quarter mile numbers, hence the comment of the americans.

Am I still missing something you're trying to imply amigo?

tinkerbell

06-09-2010, 04:42 PM

Am I still missing something you're trying to imply amigo?

hmmm, i am not *implying* anything?

i am clearly and openly stating that overstroked 'firebreathing' yankee engines are only good for drag racing on the 0-400.

tinkerbell

06-09-2010, 05:02 PM

on the *implication* flipside - are you stating that you must have more than 89mm crank to make decent power?

Chr1s

06-09-2010, 05:09 PM

Nah not at all, but I do think that there is more power to be found by running a stroker though, but thats just my opinion

GSi_PSi

06-09-2010, 05:35 PM

tinkerbell if you dont mind, can you post the engines specs you have built and power output+ track, 1/4mile times
i remember you said you had a stock b20 that ran 13.8 was that in a dc2 shell?

tinkerbell

06-09-2010, 10:43 PM

tinkerbell if you dont mind, can you post the engines specs you have built and power output+ track, 1/4mile times
i remember you said you had a stock b20 that ran 13.8 was that in a dc2 shell?

nah, with my 1st B20VTEC i ran the 13.7 in a DA6 'shell' - it was stock bottom + ITR cams IM JDM 4-1's VAFC etc... that 'made' 120ish atw...

my last B20VTEC specs include the stock bottom + buddyclub spec 3+ cams & ITR IM & JDM 4-1 with PowerFC - that engine in my VTiR did 1:11's at wakie, 1:23's at Oran and 1:55's at EC - no WSID on that one though... that 'made' 120ish atw

my latest B20VTEC has just been dyno'd - so no track times yet, but will be at WSID soon... then to Wakie to dial in the chassis..

tinkerbell

06-09-2010, 10:47 PM

Nah not at all, but I do think that there is more power to be found by running a stroker though, but thats just my opinion

what is the most reliable B series stroker kit you have used? the Eagle crank? was it for drags or circuit racing?

fatboyz39

06-09-2010, 11:14 PM

Hope to see the beast in action soon TB. We are missing you out there.

As for japs building motors, watch the SS WORKS CRX. Animal of a B series engine!

fatboyz39

06-09-2010, 11:16 PM

Lets not get this 1/4mile shit started. A internally stock b18cr runs mid 13's with basic bolt ons. Unless your "b20" is faster just dont post LOL.

GSi_PSi

07-09-2010, 12:03 AM

Why not fatboyz? i think 1/4 mile times are quite better than dyno figures.
Which internally stock b18cr has ran mid 13? with "basic bolt ons" ive seen plenty high 13s with some good drivers out there some in DC2 shell some in EG shell.

So TB are you going to post the power output? :)

tinkerbell

07-09-2010, 09:50 AM

i think 1/4 mile times are quite better than dyno figures.
So TB are you going to post the power output? :)

hmmm, nah, i might leave it up to you 'calculate' my power output from my 1/4 ET, MPH and vehicle weight? fair deal?

newpaddy3

07-09-2010, 11:35 AM

hmmm, nah, i might leave it up to you 'calculate' my power output from my 1/4 ET, MPH and vehicle weight? fair deal?

Deal!

I'll need weight of your car, friction of your tyres, what sort of raod base used on the 1/4 mile, wind factors, gear ratios, shift speeds (hope you timed yourself otherwise it might be hard to get an accurate calculation), and last but not least your MPH.

(not serious, just taking the piss out of it)

1/4 mile times are silly to try and calculate numbers, you don't know what's been done in terms of weight reduction, aerodynamics, ect.

tinkerbell

07-09-2010, 11:42 AM

1/4 mile times are silly to try and calculate numbers,

doh! so how do we work out who has the largest penis then?

newpaddy3

07-09-2010, 11:51 AM

doh! so how do we work out who has the largest penis then?

ummm... engine displacement?

tinkerbell

07-09-2010, 11:59 AM

hmmm, perhaps BMEP might be worth a look?

newpaddy3

07-09-2010, 12:12 PM

I'd support that, on a side note to back that up the Zonda R has a 6L engine making 750HP and Holden have a 6L engine making 360HP.

And to keep this thread related I'm thinking I might go ls/vtec, seems cheaper than an engine conversion plus I can keep the same engine number too.

tinkerbell

07-09-2010, 12:18 PM

the B20VTEC principles all equally apply to LSVTEC, and the two benefits you list are pretty good for those on a budget...

you say no engine 'swaps', but i still would recommend doing it by removing the engine from the car to build it...

newpaddy3

07-09-2010, 12:27 PM

Yeah I understand there is a lot of work needed to prep the block.

I don't say no to engine swaps, I just think sometimes it's cheaper to work with what you got. Not all the time though.

If I was to get a slighty higher compression piston would I have to upgrade anything else? Bolts ect?

And what's the danger of going to high a compression? Piston to valve contact? If there is enough clearance would anything else be an issue?

tinkerbell

07-09-2010, 12:55 PM

what CR are you planning?

newpaddy3

07-09-2010, 01:02 PM

Well I'm not really sure to be honest, I'd like to extract a decent amount of power out of it yet I still want it to be reliable because it's a daily driver.

It's a B18B so it has a compression ratio of 9.2:1 and I understand that changing the vtec head over will affect the compression ratio.

tinkerbell

07-09-2010, 01:14 PM

here are a few good places to start playing with ideas:

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.php

http://www.zealautowerks.com/

Benson

07-09-2010, 01:14 PM

bennjamin

07-09-2010, 01:32 PM

My Old EG back in the days with a internally OEM B18cR motor with Intake, headers, exhaust and tune ran 13.6@103mph. This was on road tyres.

Power figures between different dyno's are irrelevant. 120kw from dyno A can mean 140kw at dyno B. The real result is on the circuit and 1/4mile. Track Times do the talking, dyno numbers are just to wank over

Just to add - I took my old Eg , same internally stock motor and only a jdm 4-1 header , full interior vti and re001s to a 13.7@103mph too.
Did 116kw atw but that's not relevant.

Point is the b18c r engine is a fantastic package and hard to improve on ( note tune and probable weight reduction do little)

Anyway.... Totally agree 1/4 mile / mph is somewhat of an indication of power and reliability. Factoring gearing and weight too !

anyone else apart from tb and Fatboyz taken a b20 vtec setup down the 1/4 or had some reliable times at the racetrack ?

newpaddy3

07-09-2010, 03:03 PM

here are a few good places to start playing with ideas:

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/compcalc/compcalc.php

http://www.zealautowerks.com/

Cheers man. They are awesome sites.

Benson and bennjamin, did you guys both run the ITR gearbox?

tinkerbell

07-09-2010, 03:12 PM

Cheers man. They are awesome sites.

both may contain inconsistencies - that is why i gave you both, use for 'ballpark' purposes only ;)

bennjamin

07-09-2010, 05:17 PM

Cheers man. They are awesome sites.

Benson and bennjamin, did you guys both run the ITR gearbox?

I ran the std 4.7 FD 99-00 DC2R gearbox.

GSi_PSi

07-09-2010, 05:44 PM

TB when are you planning on taking yours to the 1/4? really looking forward to your build
Fatboyz, dave has built your customers lots of B20s how many of them taken it to the 1/4 mile?
Hopefully when i come back overseas end of October (if its not sold by then) ill get time to take it, currently have no licence

tinkerbell

07-09-2010, 06:44 PM

JSCC has a lane booked next week - so maybe then?

fatboyz39

07-09-2010, 10:08 PM

anyone else apart from tb and Fatboyz taken a b20 vtec setup down the 1/4 or had some reliable times at the racetrack ?

Lets not forget Toda built b18c 2L e240 motor. Not a bad motor. Similar ponies last yr b20vtec we had.

jdmTYPE R

07-09-2010, 11:23 PM

interested thread.
i ran a 13.6 b20vtec in my eh civic sedan vti model with no weight reduction back in the 03.
also a b20vtec in my dc2r with no weight reduction did a 1.12 around wakiefield park onthe old track back in the 04.
currently runnning a 1.8 lsvtec in my dc2r and with no time and testing after a fresh build raced it at the superlap.

DLO01

09-09-2010, 07:57 PM

Re-opened. Stern warning, keep the thread ON TOPIC, keep the personal comments and spam out. This is a good thread lets not ruin it!

GSi_PSi

09-09-2010, 08:52 PM

Touge Tom

09-09-2010, 09:53 PM

Okay here is the situation, ive purchased a B20B8 from wreckers, looking at the PHK markings on it, when we took it home looked at the back of the block
it says P3F which is the low compression bottom end indication? but everywere else it says PHK on it, can anyone give us any idea on what pistons this block has?

someone correct me if i'm wrong? but arn't all B20B's the low comp (8.5:1, i think?) block's. and the B20Z's the slightly higher comp (10.5:1,?) blocks?

tinkerbell

09-09-2010, 10:23 PM

someone correct me if i'm wrong? but arn't all B20B's the low comp (8.5:1, i think?) block's. and the B20Z's the slightly higher comp (10.5:1,?) blocks?

nah, the pistons designate the compression.

a b20b4 will have low comp p3f & b20b8 will have phk which is slightly less low comp...

never seen a B20Z so cant comment...

all b20b blocks i have seen are marked p3f externally...

ZeForce

10-09-2010, 12:01 AM

USDM B20z = AUDM B20b8, both have PHK pistons

Touge Tom

10-09-2010, 04:42 PM

tinkerbell

10-09-2010, 04:48 PM

could a A/F ratio be corrected through using a mathematical equation?

not in anyway that would represent what would happen in reality, but in theory - for sure they could!

Chr1s

10-09-2010, 06:26 PM

You can use maths to solve the amount of fuel needed removed/added for the AFR value you are aiming for. But you need to know some parameters first;

If you know the amount of fuel used, the current AFR, and let VE = 100% at that point, you can mathematically compute the amount of air actually present by working backwards from that 100% VE figure, then use that to base of the new fuel needed for the projected AFR. Simple Have/Want ratio.

Maths has an answer for everything in this world. It just depends if you want to look hard enough for it (sometimes its not really worth your time, like this....)

TODA AU

10-09-2010, 06:37 PM

this is regarding V-AFC2.. (you may think it suck's) any way, say correcting A/F ratio's, considering ratio's are similar to percentages. could a A/F ratio be corrected through using a mathematical equation?

most likely you'd tell me to dyno tune it!
It can, but you need you know your A/F ratio at varing throttle positions through the rev range.
To graph that, you pretty much need a dyno,
To adjust the VAFC II & see the result, again you'll pretty much need the dyno.
Again & again untill you get it right...
Depending on how quick or slow you are would depend on the cost.
Realisticly, $150 is not a big huge outlay to have it dyno tuned... (Well that's what we charge anyway)
If you're going to do it on your own, you'll need a wide band lambda & a stopwatch as a minimum.
Chances are you'll get booked before you're done & not be able to get it spot-on anyway as the time differnces in accel will be miniman at best with the variable of the driver in the mix.

Chr1s

10-09-2010, 06:42 PM

And yeah, aside from the obvious stated above.. it's not really worth your time. Just pay a tuner to do a touch up tune.

Edit: Now that I think about it again, you need a dyno to verify your results using the mathematical model anyway! :)

fatboyz39

11-09-2010, 12:29 AM

$150 to fully tune vafc? If so bargain right there.

Touge Tom

11-09-2010, 08:54 AM

discovered that my engine was running too rich, 240cc inj's with 55 psi fuel pressure. i changed my plugs and dropped the pressure to 48 psi. idles alot better now. but i heard some people have their fuel pressure @ 45 psi. what would you guys recommend a decent fuel pressure be , for a built-top and bottom end with-buddyclub-3+ cams and a 12.5: comp ratio, b20vtec that runs of a P30 jdm ecu.

fatboyz39

11-09-2010, 11:01 AM

45psi base?

jdmTYPE R

11-09-2010, 11:13 AM

i run 45psi on my car..but i wouldnt play around with the pressure until your about to put it back onto the dyno.
it could affect the tune and make it run lean

Touge Tom

11-09-2010, 05:21 PM

i run 45psi on my car..but i wouldnt play around with the pressure until your about to put it back onto the dyno.
it could affect the tune and make it run lean

thats just it there's no tune i'm running it off a factory p30 ecu. though i did drop it to 45psi this morning and pick'd up a A/F wide band gauge from my bud's shop. first i just wanna get the A/F correct @ idle with the fuel pressure. then start street tuning it with the V-AFC2. i know it wont be as correct as a dyno tune but it'll have to do till i get time to take it to a reputable tuner?

Benson

11-09-2010, 06:26 PM

Take it to Bel Garage for a reputable tune

TODA AU

11-09-2010, 08:03 PM

Correct fuel pressure is 43.5psi with vacuum hose off at idle.
In your case, though it will idle real nice, it will mean you'll need to add fuel with the VAFC up top, which is not effective since you'll likley run out of injector up top anyway.
To start your street tune, ajust the fuel pressure so that the std ecu without effect from the vafc gives you around 12.8:1 AF (0.88 lambda) at 5500~6000rpm.
It'll be a lot easier to tune it for good results from there.
You'll need a walbro high pressure pump too... stock one won't cut it as you'll end up with around 60~65psi fuel pressure.
Set IG timing to 16deg with pins shorted before starting.

Touge Tom

14-09-2010, 10:54 PM

what would be the benefit of ITB's? from what i understand, is that the cylinder's wont scavenge the incoming air from each other and you'd get better down low torque. but how do they benefit an engine around the top end? and would having longer flute's,ram's or velocity stack's on them help increase the rev range, iv'e been look'n 'round for some but most sell for 'round $900-$1100 mark. @ the moment i'm running a skunk2 manifold with a 71mm throttle body.

na-118

25-11-2010, 05:57 PM

Touge Tom

25-11-2010, 06:31 PM

after reading a few post in regards to b20 rod bolts,

for the ones that have experience in building these motors, what would you say

a standard b20 swap with a b16 head

replace with arp rod bolts or leave it standard?

thanks

I ran mine with standard head studs for two years. Ran with no hassels. Till i went high compression at 13.0 and rebuilt the bottom end. With a closed deck.

VTec1987

25-11-2010, 07:27 PM

you can run with b18c2\c7 head stud, don't run the bs b16a headstuds

tinkerbell

26-11-2010, 08:39 AM

did you guys even read his question before clicking submit? :wave:

na-118 - here is a thread prepared earlier...

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?137357-Stock-B20VTEC-danger-inTorquing-ARP-ROD-BOLTS-and-Revving-to-8000rpm-on-stok-block&p=2820920#post2820920

pinoy-boi

17-12-2010, 02:58 PM

getting around to changing my water pump, would u goes go genuine or aftermarket?

tinkerbell

17-12-2010, 03:03 PM

yeah, i have used aftermarket before, but since USD is so cheap, then can get lots of your genuine parts from USA:

http://oemacuraparts.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getJointLocator&siteid=214055&chapter=&sectionids=0,2308&groupid=2345&subgroupid=2345&componentid=56809&make=1&model=Integra&year=2000&catalogid=2&displayCatalogid=0

pinoy-boi

17-12-2010, 03:07 PM

yeh, just looking for smething local atm, jdm yard has them for 200 bux but looking for smething abit cheaper

but geeeze that is cheap

tinkerbell

17-12-2010, 03:08 PM

OK, here you go then: http://www.ausmart.com.au/category304_1.htm

121 + 10.50 = 131.50 delivered

(but i also note the genuine USA one is $105 delivered....)

pinoy-boi

17-12-2010, 03:10 PM

OK, here you go then: http://www.ausmart.com.au/category304_1.htm

(but i also note the genuine USA one is $105 delivered....)

yeh just checked how cheap it is, i wonder how long it will take to get here

tinkerbell

17-12-2010, 03:17 PM

i have bought multiple packages from those guys... delivered (with tracking) in usually 7-10 business days, BUT they can expedite it if you need (i.e. 5 days) for extra cost (like 45 postage vs 25)...

however - this time of year there will be all sorts of disclaimers saying that times cannot be guaranteed due to the Christmas period!!!

pinoy-boi

17-12-2010, 03:21 PM

tinkerbell

17-12-2010, 03:24 PM

the old saying is: "haste makes waste"

so just go with he flow ;)

and good luck :)

pinoy-boi

17-12-2010, 03:58 PM

the old saying is: "haste makes waste"

so just go with he flow ;)

and good luck :)

thanks buddy.

got a aftermarket water pump coming from mlb which will be here monday 80 bux including gst and freight, gotta love getting trade discount :)

Chr1s

20-12-2010, 05:43 PM

TB, that website is ****ing ace.

logical

02-01-2011, 08:56 PM

Just read through this whole thread, it's good knowledge for myself. I'm looking to do a B20 setup in the next week or so and I just wanted to know if I went by this list should I be ok? Is there anything else I would need besides an ECU and GB?

B20B8 block
VTEC water pump
B18C timing belt
B20B head gasket
ARP head studs
ARP rod bolts
oil line and fittings
head work (dowels/plug/surface)
piston relief work
PCV system (fittings/hoses/can)
Coolant hoses
VRS gasket kit

b16a head
ITR camshafts (or larger)
ITR valve springs
ITR intake manifold
Larger throttle body
Lightened flywheel
Heavy duty clutch
Adjustable cam gears
Adjustable fuel regulator
Upgraded fuel pump
Oil cooler

(copy and pasted this list from a post on this thread)

Thanks

tinkerbell

02-01-2011, 09:36 PM

logical

02-01-2011, 10:07 PM

wow, that is a pretty good list!

but you also need to check things like the condition of the driveshafts, i usually get them reconditioned at the same time if the boots are starting to crack...

also check the engine mounts...

Yeh gonna get the drive shafts reconditioned and probs run hasport mounts.

and btw tb you had an awesome setup!

Lerlo

03-01-2011, 01:05 AM

Hey guys, is it alright to run 2 sanwich plates?
I got the vtec conversion sandwich and would like to add another for an oil cooler....

MikeyG

03-01-2011, 03:50 AM

Benson

03-01-2011, 09:50 AM

Hey guys, is it alright to run 2 sanwich plates?
I got the vtec conversion sandwich and would like to add another for an oil cooler....

Yes its fine

tinkerbell

03-01-2011, 10:05 AM

i would change the head gasket to golden eagle gasket that comes with the kit

and alternatively, i would not change it to non-Honda head gasket or use any 'kit'

Lerlo

04-01-2011, 03:14 PM

Yes its fine

Cool. Does it make a difference which goes first?

na-118

04-01-2011, 04:42 PM

why would you recondition drive shafts these days it cost 200 bucks for a pair

tinkerbell

04-01-2011, 05:27 PM

from Honda?

logical

04-01-2011, 06:20 PM

why would you recondition drive shafts these days it cost 200 bucks for a pair

where from?

Cooker

05-01-2011, 12:05 PM

Oem Honda shafts are mega expensive!!!!
But they are one of the best shafts you can get. Hasport ones use rubbish metal and brake easy.

Benson

05-01-2011, 12:54 PM

Cool. Does it make a difference which goes first?

Put the golden eagle kit first, then oil cooler snadwich plate then filter

Benson

05-01-2011, 12:55 PM

Oem Honda shafts are mega expensive!!!!
But they are one of the best shafts you can get. Hasport ones use rubbish metal and brake easy.

I agree, hasport shafts are crap. Shutters and vibrates at low speeds.

dougie_504

05-01-2011, 01:32 PM

why would you recondition drive shafts these days it cost 200 bucks for a pair

We get them done down here in Melbourne for $150 a pair (EF8), and about 1-3 hours turnaround. Good quality too.

na-118

05-01-2011, 04:52 PM

repco bursons clutch brake australia burt brothers fairfield everywhere mate,,,

not genuine obviously

logical

05-01-2011, 08:56 PM

repco bursons clutch brake australia burt brothers fairfield everywhere mate,,,

not genuine obviously

sorry never knew you could buy drive shafts new (besides OEM and Hasport)

Lerlo

06-01-2011, 11:29 PM

FYI, the new spring style LMAs from honda are just $16 each, worth changing when you are reconditioning your heads.

tinkerbell

07-01-2011, 08:34 AM

how often have you had an LMA fail?

Cooker

07-01-2011, 09:03 AM

Not fail, but if they not spring type lma then they get quite rattly over time.

tinkerbell

07-01-2011, 09:05 AM

are not all LMA's a 'spring' type?

http://www.cccylinderheads.com/pics/LMA1.jpg

Cooker

07-01-2011, 09:10 AM

My b16a has the enclosed style one (dunno if there is spring inside, think it's a damper with oil in it). The type r or spring style is obvious cos you can see the spring cos that's all it is.
I have the new style at home to change over soon. My lma's so rattly below vtec lol.

tinkerbell

07-01-2011, 09:15 AM

yeah, they cased ones have spring inside.

B16A/B18C = old cased style , S2000 = "new" spring style

i guess it is much cheaper to make the spring one, rather than the cased one?

Lerlo

07-01-2011, 01:19 PM

how often have you had an LMA fail?

Well, its just for peace of mind, and its not very expensive, thats what im saying.

Speaking of the old type, it seems to be designed as hydrualic, but there is no oil feed into the thing, so it still just acts like a spring..

tinkerbell

07-01-2011, 01:25 PM

Lerlo

07-01-2011, 03:05 PM

well, $128 is *kinda expensive* to replace things that in most cases will not be broken?

sure, for example i replace old heater hoses before they blow "for peace of mind", but these are actually not expensive compared to a puddle of coolant on the side of the freeway and a cooked head...

but in the case of an LMA - it can be broken and you'll still drive home/continue racing...

the real question that should be asked is - do the new style offer advantages when used with high-lift cams?

Im just providing information about it, people can decide for themselves.

As for advantages, I do not know, but the new engines are using this style anyway, and it definately looks more robust.

I changed mine because one of my LMAs came apart and instead of forking out $76 for 1 old one, I decided to pay 128 and get 8 new ones.

Also, I was surprised by the price as I read the Americans are paying USD$30 for one...