big tube headers vs toda

[hengis]

hey i think its a silly question but i'm gonna ask anyway... i know toda > all headers
and yes i've seen the comparisons

but on a b18c2/b20 setup, do toda still rules all bseries still? or is RMF the way to go

[DWU]

Also interested in this for B20 setup.. Considering either Blox Big Tube OR Toda

[TODA AU]

With TODA you'll not only get great peak power,
But you'll get the best power band across the rev range.
This is built 160kw+ 2.L B-series...
So much so that we don't use anything else on 2L B-series where a high specific power target must be met. 150~160kw.
If our engine customer's power target is over this, we also have a TODA designed SPL header available that suits this application.

[hengis]

Well i'll be doing back to back dyno runs soon, so we'll find out soon i hope and see how it goes on a non-built b20

[dougie_504]

If you have I/H/E on it, it should make like 120kw? Without that I suppose you'd be looking at around 105-110kw?

Let us know, will be interesting :)

[hengis]

apparently the car was tuned by dynodave with this setup: RMF headers, 2.5 inch cat and 5zigen muffler.

i'll be swapping that out for toda headers, racepipe, mugen twinloop

lets see if there are any gains. if Not - SELL the JDM crap =P

[TODA AU]

apparently the car was tuned by dynodave with this setup: RMF headers, 2.5 inch cat and 5zigen muffler.

i'll be swapping that out for toda headers, racepipe, mugen twinloop

lets see if there are any gains. if Not - SELL the JDM crap =P
Fair enough... Do a back to back test if possible... :thumbsup:
But keep an eye on your mixtures if it's not being tuned to suit.
It may lean out on you in the midrange with the TODA's if it's already tuned for the RMF's

[90LAN]

its not headers that make the power its a combination of things
that have to work together

in saying that i have toda headers and was very happy
but now have somw nice spoon headers cant wait to get them on to see the difference

[Cooker]

A full on built B20 I don't think you can go past the custom Hytech anti reversion headers. The Hytech custom headers pretty much mimick the TODA dyno power curve but with slightly more hp.

[vinnY]

mikey's old setup, hengis?

[Benson]

If you are gonig to do the test and keep it consistent, just change the headers and not the whole exhaust system

[Chr1s]

I think TODA's are too small for B20's, but thats my opinion, however this SPL header sounds like the shibang, any info Adrian?

[TODA AU]

I think TODA's are too small for B20's, but thats my opinion, however this SPL header sounds like the shibang, any info Adrian?

You aught to try 'em 1st, you'd be surprised...
& 45mm primaries aren't exactly small.

Re SPL header,
PM me about those...;)

[Cooker]

If you are gonig to do the test and keep it consistent, just change the headers and not the whole exhaust system
Another way to do a header comparison is just bolt on the different headers with no exhaust. Do the power runs straight of the headers.

[hengis]

yes..


mikey's old setup, hengis?

[hengis]

I think as 90lan said, its a combination of parts
so it will be like this:
run 1) replica rmf headers, catless, mugen
run 2) toda headers, catless, mugen

even if toda gives an overall improvement of 4kw across the powerband
is that worth it for 1k?


Another way to do a header comparison is just bolt on the different headers with no exhaust. Do the power runs straight of the headers.

[ninzee]

even if toda gives an overall improvement of 4kw across the powerband is that worth it for 1k?

that comes down to how fast you need or want to go, for most people that 4kw wouldnt bother them but for those who chase every last kw the 1k is probably worth it

[ALLMTR996]

I think as 90lan said, its a combination of parts
so it will be like this:
run 1) replica rmf headers, catless, mugen
run 2) toda headers, catless, mugen

even if toda gives an overall improvement of 4kw across the powerband
is that worth it for 1k?

And so are you tuning each setup or are you just going to bolt the stuff on and hope that the map will tune itself to each setup?

[hengis]

i still can't decide... pehaps just leave the tune as it is for the time being
if the tune is safe, and its not leaning out, than i'll keep it as it is
again it comes down to cost...
If its a coupla hundred bucks to get it tuned properly.. than why not I guess

I don't know who else other than AKmotorworks that tune Crome Ecu

[Chr1s]

Your changing the motor breathing with the header, to see the TODA work properly you need to retune it.

[hengis]

any suggestions on tuners in melb for Crome/Neptune?

[ALLMTR996]

any suggestions on tuners in melb for Crome/Neptune?

Good Luck :honda:
you have PM

[Cooker]

Lol, yer def need to tune each setup. Running straight of the header is fine.
Its not just peak hp that the TODA will give you but HEAPS more midrange grunt.

[ZeForce]

Cheaper alternative for toda header.... http://www.spoolinperformance.com/spfab-bseries-header-p-464.html

[GSi_PSi]

I had the toda 4-2-1 ones on my b20 and now ive got the RMF headers. Downlow+midrange torque the toda was better, but for midrange and up top RMF. Thats why they are called RMF drag headers... Imo if your going to be using the car for trackwork were you drop down in the revs usually midrange etc get the Todas, but just chasing drag times then RMF is good enough.

[hengis]

I had the toda 4-2-1 ones on my b20 and now ive got the RMF headers. Downlow+midrange torque the toda was better, but for midrange and up top RMF. Thats why they are called RMF drag headers... Imo if your going to be using the car for trackwork were you drop down in the revs usually midrange etc get the Todas, but just chasing drag times then RMF is good enough.


good info from experience, do you have any dynos, or is this just from how it feels?

my impression was that toda headers also gave the best top end power as well out of all the bseries headers.

[GSi_PSi]

Normal Toda 4-2-1's are too small for a b20, maybe a standard build like mine is okay, but if your planning on working it. Id suggest either trying to find a real RMF or SMSP header

[hengis]

woah. really

[GSi_PSi]

Even the RMF replica is too smalll for a built b20... to totally get everything out of it you need a real rmf, there is a big difference in size with fake vs real... ie
REAL RMF
http://i3.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/28/4b/394b_3.JPG
I wish i had the money otherwise id go and snap this header up right now.... its on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RMF-B-SERIES-DRAG-HEADER-HONDA-CIVIC-SI-B16-VTEC-B18_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem23059e6619QQitemZ15 0418122265QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAcce ssories

[vinnY]

i'm pretty sure mikeyg had the narrow type rmf headers

[NSPYRE]

have you considered Bisimoto headers? apparently the guys in the states rave on about these

http://bisimoto.net/store/images/HeaderSample2.JPG

http://bisimoto.net/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_8_77_79

[vinnY]

yeah ask trav (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/member.php?u=1455) how his bisimoto headers went :p

[TODA AU]

Normal Toda 4-2-1's are too small for a b20, maybe a standard build like mine is okay, but if your planning on working it. Id suggest either trying to find a real RMF or SMSP header
Aaaaaaaaaaaand thats about enough bullshit...
In the real world, off the shelf TODA headers are good for 150~160kw at the wheels when used on a built 2.0L B20 or B18.
So... Hands up all those who've built & tuned engines like that.... :wave:
Anyone?

Anyone?

Anyone?










Anyone...

[ALLMTR996]

But the e-mechanic is always right with his BUTT DYNO figures

[TODA AU]

But the e-mechanic is always right with his BUTT DYNO figures
Agreed... His acuracty is further improved by stating what he recons; as fact.
This is most effective when he hasn't actully used any of the parts in question...

[hengis]

we'll find out next thursday night hopefully @ recustom

[fatboyz39]

Toda headers works well on B20's. If there was a battle between toda's and big tube and price wasnt a factor ill choose the toda's.

[fatboyz39]

In the real world, off the shelf TODA headers are good for 150~160kw at the wheels when used on a built 2.0L B20 or B18.


That is true.:thumbsup:

[GSi_PSi]

Agreed... His acuracty is further improved by stating what he recons; as fact.
This is most effective when he hasn't actully used any of the parts in question...

We can go about dyno numbers , but i guarantee when someone gets proved wrong they will say, oh its a different day, weather, condtions etcc I have used the toda header, i dont just talk out of my ass, but tell me since your so quick to shoot something down thats not toda have worked with these RMF rep headers?. Fair enough you have a business and everything but its kinda hitting the point were its getting childish and highly biased.Isnt the Toda header advertised as a B16A / B18C header. If i had 1500 to spend i would get a custom made, engine specific header designed by either SSR, SMSP or Hytec an off the shelf toda header cant compete with that.

[bungsai]

we'll find out next thursday night hopefully @ recustom

I can head down with a HD cam to record this all for everyone. :wave:

[tinkerbell]

We can go about dyno numbers ,

i'd be interested to see the dyno graphs for your set up comparing the Toda's to the RMF copy's you are running?

[EG5]

In the real world, off the shelf TODA headers are good for 150~160kw at the wheels when used on a built 2.0L B20 or B18.


And a proven high 12 sec pass on DC2R chasis in circuit trim chasis around 6 years ago .
-3.5 camber on the front on my old 22x8x15 slicks set up.
Remember Jason's old dc2r?

[TODA AU]

We can go about dyno numbers , but i guarantee when someone gets proved wrong they will say, oh its a different day, weather, condtions etcc I have used the toda header, i dont just talk out of my ass, but tell me since your so quick to shoot something down thats not toda have worked with these RMF rep headers?. Fair enough you have a business and everything but its kinda hitting the point were its getting childish and highly biased.Isnt the Toda header advertised as a B16A / B18C header. If i had 1500 to spend i would get a custom made, engine specific header designed by either SSR, SMSP or Hytec an off the shelf toda header cant compete with that.
Childish & biased…. LOL…
Righto… I’ll put it another way
Hi, I’m “Harry Potter” & my job is to turn shit into chocolate…

Though we build & tune our own engines,
We also tune many engines / combinations from other workshops & individuals.
In doing this we really do get to see & test a lot of alternative combinations.
So yes, I’ve tuned a number of cars with RMF rep headers & the real RMF’s, Genuine Hytech’s, SSR’s & SMSP’s
& there’s a whole host of copy headers flowing through the market these days too…
So I am not being childish & biased when I say your claims are nonsense.
I’m basing my opinion on years of real tuning experience.
Reflecting on that I can honestly put my hand up & say no, I think you’re wrong… (Perhaps I should add more why in & be a little less abrasive..)
I understand you believe you’re offering sound advice, but it just doesn’t stack up.
When an engine doesn’t have much fruit in it (close to stock) & the tuner isn’t really going to lean on it…
It really doesn’t matter which header you get because the results are pretty similar…
(Except when it comes to part throttle power… Here Toda leads the way again…
To be blunt, this is just a fact… It remains true, regardless of discussion otherwise.)
It’s when the power levels get higher the gap widens… & this is where your theory is backtofront
I understand Toda headers aren’t cheap & many guys can’t afford them…
But that doesn’t mean they don’t work…
If you can afford them, they’re pretty much a good as it gets is you want up to 160kw…
Above that level you need custom headers or our SPL ones…
But below that… The off the shelf Toda’s are really hard to match let alone beat… Custom or not.

There are 2 output versions available off the shelf….
B16B – for 1600cc engines… (Smaller secondaries)
B18CR – For 1800~2000cc engines
The model designation gives an indication of flange type & vehicle type intended.

Though the header is a key component in the combination,
If the combination isn’t sound, it doesn’t matter what header you have.
Also tuning plays a big role… Not just ECU but cam timing etc.
This can make one header look bad & another shine. (just on a swap)

[cotties]

i just myself some skunk2 megapower headers cant wait to try them out

[tinkerbell]

on which engine combo?

and what was the price?

[spoonfed]

hey guys i have a very basic b20 swap on my dc2 and i have had a set of off the shelf toda header and i was happy with them the car made 125.7kw with the toda but i also have a set of smsp b19 header now and there was a differences in my dyno figure of 6.2kw and now before anyone jump up and say weather and so on the temp difference was 1 deg and it was the same tuner and same dyno so that my view i like both header but i love the smsp but for my new b20 set up im use a custom set made by dh racing

[90LAN]

what was the price differences ?

[OB]

there was a differences in my dyno figure of 6.2kw

So i'm assuming that 6.2kw was a difference in peak power? what did the rest of the curve look like...? was there a difference in power throughout the curve?

[ZeForce]

Do you have the dyno printouts for a comparison?

[CB7_OWNER]

still waiting for the OP's dyno graphs...

[bungsai]

lol the OP is wasting your time.

[hengis]

well the original question from me was to find out if the RMF replicas on my car is the better option or should i install the toda headers I have, hence the start of the thread. Now its strayed into a Toda vs Race headers, Toda vs Big Brand USA header and Dyno Battle. I think we can all agree that Toda is a good header, and great for most combination of engine/exhaust setup, but if your chasing extra figures at the top with a custom setup and willing to pay $$$ than you have other options.

Unfortunately I couldn't get a fair dyno comparison done because the RMF exhaust setup is welded onto the cat, and in turn, this uses a shorter catback setup.

essentially I couldn't bolt on the same headers/cat/catback combos to do testing.
Then REcustoms bailed on me. So I stayed home and bolted up the setup myself.

But these are the facts after bolting on the Toda Headers/Race pipe/Mugen Twin loop. I will spare you my personal feelings of enjoyment.. and simply state a few facts:

Road was Dry, It was last night, and it wasn't such a cold night. roughly about 14 degrees according to my weather app.

- car briefly wheel spins in vtec in first gear than chirps (it used to just chirp)
- Car briefly wheel spins in 2nd gear on Vtec than chirps. (used to just chirp. sometimes not)
- Car chirps on transition to 3rd gear (never used to)
- The transition used to be very subtle and low key you can just hear the crossover, but now vtec is engagement is that all too familiar "Baaaa" sound.

[vinnY]

so, butt dyno results only?

[tinkerbell]

nah, seems to be acoustic dyno results only...

[hengis]

sorry to disappoint.The custom exhaust welded onto the RMF's didn't allow it.

I will be geting a dyno to check AFR's later on, but it won't mean much.

[hengis]

nah, seems to be acoustic dyno results only...

but safe to say that the brief wheel spin in each gear in the DRY is a little more than acoustic.

[tinkerbell]

sorry to disappoint.The custom exhaust welded onto the RMF's didn't allow it.


you could maybe try the header/cat combo's and leave off the cat back?

[hengis]

well RMF+cat
vs
Toda+racepipe

is not a fair comparison either is it?

[GSi_PSi]

What tyres are you using>? Hmmmmmm

[CB7_OWNER]

but safe to say that the brief wheel spin in each gear in the DRY is a little more than acoustic.

beg to differ, unless it was the same temp/ same road/ same tyres /same shift point / same launch technique when you had the RMF rep headers on... then i dont see how you can compare the power , by the amount of chirping you made with the tyres... that said.. you removed the cat , so some sort of gains would be expected.

Nvrtheless, i would have picked the current setup you have over the old setup anyday.. way to loud it was. Good upgrade =)