K20 or b16a turbo?

[Ek4Vtir]

Hi guys just want some advice in regards to power.
I currently drive ek4 b16a2 pretty much stock and honestly feels weak as piss at times. I am comptemplating if I should turbo the car or do a k20 swap and sell the b16a to drop the price a bit.

The main question is generally what is more faster b16a turbs or k20 swap, how much $$$ would u need to spend to have the b16a running fast or faster than a k20?

This post is just purely for advice not to flame anyone on b16 ot anything like that, just want something that can outrun turbo cars.

[BIGTYM]

I turbo'd my EM1, Had a dyno day and managed to beat JDM EP3 and DC5R. So from my experince turbo B16A2 beats K20.

[Ek4Vtir]

Sickkk that's what I wanted to hear! ;)

[eg5civic]

what do you want, v8 beater (with the right turbo setup) straight line i run these streets power. or usable power (ie if you track the car or want to track it)

[Ek4Vtir]

I turbo'd my EM1, Had a dyno day and managed to beat JDM EP3 and DC5R. So from my experince turbo B16A2 beats K20.

How much did you spend on your engine man?

[Ek4Vtir]

what do you want, v8 beater (with the right turbo setup) straight line i run these streets power. or usable power (ie if you track the car or want to track it)

Yeah strong enough to stand a chance against turbo powered cars, I wasn't even able to beat one of those 4wd BMW x5 on the straight for crying out loud, mind you I was red lineing the biaaatch :p

[eg5civic]

lol alot of them were v8's.... man onwards from 06 they are mostly v8, you cant hope to beat an 8 on the straight with a stock b16a :p

[damienm]

if i had a choice between the two, id take the k series anyday even if it made less power.

[cheapdouchebag]

if i had a choice between the two, id take the k series anyday even if it made less power.

can understand where your coming from and to each its own. i know probably almost everyone would prefer a kmotor, but for me, its gotta be a B-series for my civic. i wouldnt want to give up a/c and all the other goodies from the oldies for the kvtec to go in. also, i rather just restore my car to one of the models that was once a WOWWERS car if u catch my drift.
im going a b16a2 in my ride soon, yeah i know its overrated. but if that drops in, i can completly replicate the SIR model they came in the other markets besides our one.

and maybe then, a turbo will go in, after my financial difficulties have gone away that is.

im not too sure but, have i gone dumb?:confused:

[BIGTYM]

Turbo conversion alot more bang for buck over K swap. Plus got the advantage of reverting back to stock if ever needed to.

[DLO01]

Agree. With decent turbo setup. Straight line. B series turbo no problems. :thumbsup:

[Ek4Vtir]

Awesum advice guys this really helped me out !!

[IEVAQ8]

b with boost all the way.................never looked back after doing mine, and hoping i can free up some cash to do it again...................

just in a lighter chasis this time around.....

[Ek4Vtir]

b with boost all the way.................never looked back after doing mine, and hoping i can free up some cash to do it again...................

just in a lighter chasis this time around.....

thats kool man, what happened to your ITR btw?

hmm were u able to take on EVO's and WRX's with turbo setup? or am I just hopeing for too much now with B series?

[jesmine0]

I would say b16 turbo. owned Ek with k20 n pretty good for daily driving.
but spend $$$ didn't get as much power as turbo b16.
If equal amount had been spend on turbo b16, you'll get huge power!!

[crazyEG]

B16A turbo Bang for buck.
Ive had mine for over 2 years no dramas.
Do it right, DO it once.
Turbo+Vtec= awesome

[damienm]

ive got an eg b18cr built for track and ive considered turbo-charging it but how long would the stock internals last if im redlining it consistantly?

[ninzee]

Boost>N/A
you cant compare to the pull u get from it

[Vvvtec]

Boost>N/A
you cant compare to the pull u get from it

Amen.

I remember my first ride in a b18c powered car... I could NOT believe the feeling and power coming from those 4 cylinders... I remember thinking to myself 'holy **** this is good, imagine putting 15 pounds of boost into this' haha...

B-series + Turbo all the way and dont look back (all though you'll have to with all the cars you'll be destroying from a stand still ;) )

[dougie_504]

All of our FI friends will say "go boost and you never go back" or something like that.

As for power FI is by far the most 'economical' way of producing larger numbers. Just make sure you've got the right gear to go with it - good tyres, good suspension and good brakes. They'll make it safer and easier to keep your rubber on the road.
But you'll also need other gear, such as a larger exhaust setup to cope with the increased flow. But I'm sure you know this already or will look into it when the time comes!


K20's are very ugly engines anyway...whereas the B's and the D's are very easy on the eyes :)

[Ek4Vtir]

Thanks for the advice again guys, guess I'm going down the path of the "Force" ! Induction !

[ninzee]

Thanks for the advice again guys, guess I'm going down the path of the "Force" ! Induction !

smart man
i dnt have a turbo car cause of p plate restrictions but think of the advantages of boost, its alot cheaper and you get the BOV noise (thats the main part hehe:))

[Vvvtec]

smart man
i dnt have a turbo car cause of p plate restrictions but think of the advantages of boost, its alot cheaper and you get the BOV noise (thats the main part hehe:))

Aint that the truth! I saw a shitty lancer drive past today butthe booseted motor sounded amazing..made up for the fact it was a lancer :P

[TheSaint]

what about B16a2+JRSC?

[Vvvtec]

what about B16a2+JRSC?

What is JRSC?

[MikeyG]

street = turbo
track = k series

you gotta ask yourself the negatives of boosting aswell after reading your posts to me it sounds like you want to boost your b16 alot.

you will need to spend money on a either decent turbo kit not just come ebay or greddy kits or will you piece it yourself?

you will need to have a decent ecu aswell, hondata 300 + boost that isnt cheap either.

will do need to do internals? if you want your stock to take 10+ psi then yes, that also is going to cost you.

Dont think of the positives of boosting, think of what the worst could happen and work from there.

Im not trying to make you go K or not to boost either but make a budget, think and research on what your buying.

All the best

EDIT:
What is JRSC?

Jackson SuperCharger

[TheSaint]

JRSC Kit for B16a2 =D

http://www.supercharger.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=33371

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxJh-vIU57s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEsRyKjJPZg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDO8qTR-1sg

[Ek4Vtir]

street = turbo
track = k series

you gotta ask yourself the negatives of boosting aswell after reading your posts to me it sounds like you want to boost your b16 alot.

you will need to spend money on a either decent turbo kit not just come ebay or greddy kits or will you piece it yourself?

you will need to have a decent ecu aswell, hondata 300 + boost that isnt cheap either.

will do need to do internals? if you want your stock to take 10+ psi then yes, that also is going to cost you.

Dont think of the positives of boosting, think of what the worst could happen and work from there.

Im not trying to make you go K or not to boost either but make a budget, think and research on what your buying.

All the best

EDIT:

Jackson SuperCharger

yeah true gotta be sensible bout the whole thing, will definetely research all aspects before leaping in with products and such.

[Limbo]

at wakefield, i was pulling away from the EVOs & WRX and some skylines
Trust me they certainly get suprised

Main reason why N/A is better for track is usually down to reliability due to heat.
Turbos need more cooling & loose power if they get too hot.
just need good oil cooler and better radiator

N/A is more consistent and sometimes being underpowered helps going through some of the corners, easier without fighting the car.

It just takes time getting use to driving it.

[mohdmanutd]

hey ek4vtir,

i own a eg and and i have a b16 in it aswell. i was in the same situation as yours about a month ago into going to turbo or a k20 swap. well these are the facts you need to factor as every1 has different thoughts and what they really want.

in my situation there was a turbo kit setup for 3.5g or a complete k series swap for 11g-12g and plus sell my engine. i thought about it and i went for the turbo as i got to save money and i could spend the money on biking a bike for myself and pay for uni.

atm im pulling 150kws at 7psi so its quite a decent number. I dont race much on the streets but i have taken on 2 cars which were 2 rexies 04 sti which i beat about a car's length and another of the 2 door sti.

there is alot of aspects you need to consider, but the main aspect for me was i wanted quick power for cheap so that was the choice. if you have any questions feel free to pm

[kraiye]

ever thought b20 + boost?

[Limbo]

i've always been worried the b20 wouldn't hold boost reliability
The lower b20 block is weaker as it is from what i've heard

I'd rather get a b18 and then boost


ever thought b20 + boost?

[kraiye]

so they say ;)

my thoughts are, if you wanna run more than 7-8psi you pretty much should be rebuilding the engine anyway. might as well get a b20 and build that to handle the boost while still being able to drive the b16 around.
my 2c

[dougie_504]

No turbo on B20 I think. Keep the compression low if you go FI.

[Ek4Vtir]

Would be kool to see a Honda out gun evos and wrxs, honestly never seen one in real life tho :p

[Limbo]

come and watch me on the straight at wakefield LOL, i'm not as quick as them on the corners but i can certainly out run them with my long legs... hahaha
i just brought a cam for my car will post some pics up when i go next :)

P.S B20 apparently have weak sleeve/walls, i dunno if you can make it a good boost engine. Better of boosting a k20

[GenesisEG]

Main reason why N/A is better for track is usually down to reliability due to heat.

Is this true?

I thought the main reason N/A cars are more suited for track is the power curve. Turbo cars produce bugger-all power outside of boost, so the power band in the car is going to be super narrow.

N/A cars have a much more even power curve, so you have a much more consistent power output. It's much easier to power out of a corner if you don't have to worry about keeping your RPM in such a narrow corridor. Predictability is important when you're hammering at top speed, last thing you want is for your turbo to spool up mid-corner and throw you for a spin.

Reliability is probably another reason, but all tuned cars suffer from unreliability at some stage, boosted or not.

I see so many of these threads, forced vs natural, and it really all comes down to three things.

Personal preference.

Budget.

Purpose.

I love the sound of turbo cars, and the pull you get when the turbo spools up is incredible, but for anything other than drag racing, I'd always suggest going N/A. It takes a bucket-load of cash to make a turbo car responsive enough to drive on the track. Lightweight flywheel, good quality hi-flowed turbo, good exhaust system and so on and so forth. If your car is not properly set up and tuned, it will be a slug. Throwing a big turbo on a car does not make it good, it just produces big numbers, and that's not really that important when building a fast car.

Case in point, my friend has a WRX (which he's selling by the way, just bought an EK...). It only produces just under 200 kilowatts at all four wheels. That's about 100 kilowatts less than my old ute. He does 0-100 in just over 3 seconds, and top speed is well over 300kph. His top speed is lower than my ute's, but his acceleration is just out of this world. I put this down entirely to the way he's had it tuned, and the parts he's put into it. It has a small turbo to minimise lag, so it's not producing the huge numbers you'd expect from such a fast car, but it's as responsive as any N/A car I've ever driven, and the power delivery is smooth enough to be reliable for track work.

Keep in mind that he's spent over 50 grand just on mods, so if you want to turbo your Civic and have it running at that kind of level, you'll need to spend probably more than that.

I just bought myself an EG, and I'm going B18C. Not interested in putting a turbo on it, not even in the slightest. I want a consistent power curve to minimise the impact that torque steer is going to have on me in the hard corners and also to make sure my car is as predictable as possible.

Personally, I'd suggest looking at only one thing, what do you want to do with the car?

If you want to drag it, then you need to consider a couple of things.

One, you will need to beef up the engine to cope with the strain that's going to be put on it with each and every launch you do. It's all good and well to stick a turbo on it, but if you keep launching hard with stock internals...

Then you need to consider your drive train. Can the diff cope?

Brakes are important too, you want to be able to stop before you hit the wall at the end of the straight.

Suspension is a big one, is it going to absorb the weight shift when you launch so you can get off the line quickly? Hard springs and shocks don't mean alot, you gotta have good suspension to really soak up that torque.

Then you need to have light wheels and good grippy tyres, since FF cars really suck at putting power to the road from a stand still.

...

If you want to track it, whoa, so much to consider.

There's alot more to a fast car than big numbers. Weight, suspension, wheels, tyres, engine response, compression, turbo size, turbo lag, boost pressure, exhaust size and design, engine capacity, drive shaft, clutch, flywheel, diff... The list is endless, and you need to consider them all when you design your car. It's en expensive venture to make a fast, reliable car. Something you should do with alot of care and thought, rather than quick-fixes.

I used to go for big numbers, I drove a 6L V8 with huge power, and then I got pummelled by a car with half the power output simply because it was designed better, and he got around corners much faster too. Learn from that, it's an important lesson to remember when tuning cars.

Hope I haven't ranted on too much, I just see so many of these threads, and I really wish people would learn that speed is not a matter of throwing a turbo on, there's so much involved...

[thebob]

Beating a evo or wrx in a na car is far greater then beating it in a boosted car. You will never wipe that smile off your face. Plus down shifting into 5th is another reason k's are the best.

[EG5]

Would be kool to see a Honda out gun evos and wrxs, honestly never seen one in real life tho :p
video clip from back in 05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCCuiqgMvZA

video clip from back in 07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCgBuK_vTVQ

[Lukezen27]

Would be kool to see a Honda out gun evos and wrxs, honestly never seen one in real life tho :p


Dude i smoke all stock EVO & WRX & STI's

I go out with the REXNET boys sometimes coze I have a mate with a modified Subaru...

Example of there times!

WRX 05 ish 14.1
WRX 05 ish 14.4
WRX mixed with a few first timers were mostly in the low 15s
STI 03 13.9
WRX 02 12.5 (heavily modified)
EVO 7 12 flat (heavily modified)

NZc1_i_NzrA

I was able to get my current setup running for under $6000 including Motor conversion and quality parts :thumbsup:

My built thread
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=111&order=desc&page=2
Did it all out on the street :p


Is this true?

I thought the main reason N/A cars are more suited for track is the power curve. Turbo cars produce bugger-all power outside of boost, so the power band in the car is going to be super narrow.

N/A cars have a much more even power curve, so you have a much more consistent power output. It's much easier to power out of a corner if you don't have to worry about keeping your RPM in such a narrow corridor. Predictability is important when you're hammering at top speed, last thing you want is for your turbo to spool up mid-corner and throw you for a spin

Well its mostly true but you just need to change your driving style accommodate..

Plus the difference isn't that big with Honda's and people over exaggerate

[Ek4Vtir]

Crazy stuff :D hmm im so gonna turb it up :p hmm but one concern is would the cops put a yellow sticker on the car or even impound it? Or you can get some sorta certificate?

[shurman]

I doubt the police would be able to impound your car, purely for being turbo. Defect, yeah, impound, doubtful.

You have to remember man, defects are apart of tuning. We all know the risks and accept those every time we drive.

g/l with the build. b16 + turbo will be a lot of fun!

[IEVAQ8]

thats kool man, what happened to your ITR btw?

hmm were u able to take on EVO's and WRX's with turbo setup? or am I just hopeing for too much now with B series?
unfortunatly, my itr got pinched back in November 2009,
wrx and evo's where a waste of time..........lol
i was able to keep uip with stock and lightly modified gtr's..........


so they say ;)

my thoughts are, if you wanna run more than 7-8psi you pretty much should be rebuilding the engine anyway. might as well get a b20 and build that to handle the boost while still being able to drive the b16 around.
my 2c
b20 has much thiner walls on the block and sleeves, not very good for boosted application, and unless the engine needs the rebuild, dont see y they cant hold upto 10psi..........
at one stage while tuning, my engine was seeing 12psi for 6hours of tuning.......
but i had no choice at that stage due to wastegate spring creeping, i ended up only running 7.5psi

[damienm]

hey IEVAQ8, just wondering if your motor wouldve lasted on that set up with the gt30r? if you were to track it say, twice a month?

[IEVAQ8]

hey IEVAQ8, just wondering if your motor wouldve lasted on that set up with the gt30r? if you were to track it say, twice a month?

i drove my car daily for about 18months, since it was boosted...and after it got painted, bout 14months sinces boosted, i took it back to my tuner to fix up the cold start (as we never got a chance to do it from day one) and i decided lets do a power run to see where the engine is at, and i will swear on my life, the figures where exactly the same with nothing touched apart from the cold start.....

i never got a chance to track it as i didnt have an oil cooler, but i did go to the drags twice in my time while boosted.........

i guess its all in the tune and the way u look after it..........p.s. i didnt baby it even though i drove it daily...

[Ek4Vtir]

IEVQ8 were u affraid when u see cops around :P

[IEVAQ8]

IEVQ8 were u affraid when u see cops around :P

not really, as my car on the outside only looked mild, just was lowered neatly, 17" dc5R wheels (so still retaining honda badge looks stock). and tinted windows, i think i got away with it heaps, due to not having a big fuk off cannon muffler at the back, i had a straight through 3" exhaust with no cats or mufflers at all(which mad it burble and deep on idle, but really loud on WOT...lol), and it was neatly finished at the back where it didnt protrude past the rear bar cut out.....

and i guess a bit of luck and sensible driving (u know right place right time)...

[kraiye]

STI 03 13.9
serious??!

lol thats awesome! that means my NA B16 is quicker than rexs! on shitty tyres!!
i really gotta get back to the strip to test this out!!!! :D

[Benson]

I would personally Kswap the car if you are planning on keeping it for a few years. The B16a's are a old motors. They will requuire some kind of major service plus the fact that its a 15years old engine, you always have something in the back of your mind that something will give up or stop working. You can sell of the b16a package for a few thousands and use that towards your Kswap

K20's are becoming much more affortable. Just need to shop around for parts to make it fit the engine bay. Other than that, you cant beat the 6 speed LSD gearbox and the VTC technology. Kswap + turbo and you'll see around 350-400hp easily.

[kraiye]

all comes down to budget :thumbsup:

Benson, some good points but you worry too much :p
let me put this out there to everyone else... how many b series owners "always have something in the back of your mind that something will give up or stop working" ?
I sure as never think about it!

i still say build and boost a b20 ;)

[CB7_OWNER]

^ i do....

I'm scared my VTEC is going to fall off.

[dougie_504]

I was worried that my B16A wouldn't pull well at the dyno day on Saturday but it made 99.4kw ATW - with what I was told by the previous owner was just I/H/E but might be internals also, maybe built in Japan ages ago...

My friend's B16A with Skunk2 camshafts, camgears, valves, springs, retainers, port job and I/H/E made 100.7kw untuned.
And my other mate with a B18C7 swap made 84.9kw with a restrictive exhaust.


So you never know...B-series are tough motors and aren't as problematic as some people think they are IMO.

[thebob]

They are a great motors, but with K's you get a faster then built b series for less. Plus you get the " please tell me thats not NA " comment.

[jks24]

I was worried that my B16A wouldn't pull well at the dyno day on Saturday but it made 99.4kw ATW - with what I was told by the previous owner was just I/H/E but might be internals also, maybe built in Japan ages ago...

My friend's B16A with Skunk2 camshafts, camgears, valves, springs, retainers, port job and I/H/E made 100.7kw untuned.
And my other mate with a B18C7 swap made 84.9kw with a restrictive exhaust.


So you never know...B-series are tough motors and aren't as problematic as some people think they are IMO.

Ek4guy was getting 109fwkw on his b16a2 with toda headers, injen cai,
fujitsubo exhaust and vafc not tunned. Very good power for a b16

I would love a b18cr swap for mine and would leave it n/a. Don't know if I would be better goin dc5r tho just to get the k series

[Ek4Vtir]

not really, as my car on the outside only looked mild, just was lowered neatly, 17" dc5R wheels (so still retaining honda badge looks stock). and tinted windows, i think i got away with it heaps, due to not having a big fuk off cannon muffler at the back, i had a straight through 3" exhaust with no cats or mufflers at all(which mad it burble and deep on idle, but really loud on WOT...lol), and it was neatly finished at the back where it didnt protrude past the rear bar cut out.....

and i guess a bit of luck and sensible driving (u know right place right time)...

lol thats hardcore, Yeah thats what I'm gonna be worried bout, cops giving a massive fine for modding the car up too much..

What is even legal to mod nowadays?

with Kswap that is also classified as ilegal mod I assume? lols

[thebob]

You need to research before you post this question. The fact everyone is telling you it's ok to do and you keep thinking your some street bandit who lives on the edge shows you are wasting everyones time.

[Ek4Vtir]

doode i drove on my L's for two years :P

I just want to be safe than sorry

[dougie_504]

Ek4guy was getting 109fwkw on his b16a2 with toda headers, injen cai,
fujitsubo exhaust and vafc not tunned. Very good power for a b16

I would love a b18cr swap for mine and would leave it n/a. Don't know if I would be better goin dc5r tho just to get the k series


Yeah mine isn't tuned either, stock ECU and stuff, so I wonder if it has internal work or just the I/H/E that was stated by the previous owner when I bought it (he imported in years ago).

As far as dyno results go I don't think the number matters at all unless you have something else to compare it to. Because my friends put their cars on the dyno I had a basis for comparison, but if I just went there on my own and pulled 99.4kw I could assume that the dyno is shit or the mechanic calibrated it to please me.

[Snoop_gee]

K20's are very ugly engines anyway...whereas the B's and the D's are very easy on the eyes :)


i guess i wont be showing u my engine bay in person then Andy :p

[dougie_504]

I think you will G. Picnic - deliciously...ugly... :D

[Snoop_gee]

errr Andy nice try :P

But in answering to the question besides the loads who have said b16a turbo is better because it is bang for buck. I ask you do u really want bang for buck or to be unique.

You dont do a kswap to be blisteringly quick nor will i claim it to be.
But what i can proudly say is the technology and the refinement is amazing and better than any honda engine to date so far.And of course it will be because its newer.

Why?
Well for a start the fact when you mention that its not a turbo its a SHOCK to many that it actually go real good but it certainly has the up and go when u want it to be.

No such thing as turbo lag.
Or having to worry about temp issues.

[DLO01]

I don't think a K sway is that unique these days. I think boosting a B is more unique these days. :p

[Benson]

Too many of you guys think K-series is expensive. Seriously sit down and budget everything. You'll be surprise how much a Bseries turbo can cost

[Limbo]

you've got a point, too many turbo guys cut corners.
If you do a proper Turbo setup it can be almost as expensive as a K series


Too many of you guys think K-series is expensive. Seriously sit down and budget everything. You'll be surprise how much a Bseries turbo can cost

[gnx1987]

I reckon k swap. Imagine smoking an ss and then seeing the look on the owners face when you tell him it's not turbo. I reckon the only time you should put a turbo on a four cylinder is when it doesn't have VTEC. Besides torque and FWD=:thumbdwn: Why have so much power when you can't put it to the ground?

[EG5]

1st question should be whats your budget ?

[kraiye]

changing my tune... supercharged K