How to beat EG b18cr with EK?

[Ek4Vtir]

Hi, guys just wanted some advice again, still comtemplating on what to do.. hmmm..

I own a Ek4 and a few mates told me i should just sell the thing off and get an eg with b18cr conversion, which will pwn :O

my question is.. I love the ek and dont really wanna go through the hassel of selling a car.. if you know what i mean haha

So.. What engine conversion would it take to outrun a EG b18cr?

and this is purely on the engine conversion on all stock parts, meaning no reduce weight.etc...

Oh and yes.. B or H series range as K series are wayy too expensive plus the fact you lose air-con which suxxs in summer for me :P

Remember this post is just straight up advice no flameing and no.. go to "search bar" theres thousands of these post kinda thing, I want up to date facts. Thanks guys :thumbsup:

[hondaEK4]

b16+b20 bottom

[geeang]

B18CR, biggest difference between EKB18CR and EGB18CR will most likely be the driver.

[xntrik]

^
With above.

[JetSir]

+1 on driver
also helps if u have more mods and the tune.

[Ek4Vtir]

I see I see, so the weight difference is that far appart for the EG to fly away I guess?

[bennjamin]

where do u plan to beat them ?

[lsvtec]

b20 vtec and a good driver!

This combination is sure to beat an eg b18cr

[damienm]

the best way would be to pop a t28 into the car

i dont think a simple ek b20 would be enough to beat an egb18cr

[lsvtec]

Stock ek motor with a t28?

I dont think that would beat a eg b18cr

[tOniies]

Jdm k20 yo!

[lsvtec]

no one has money to go k series

[jeffreymui]

+1 for driver.....b20vtec might be able to beat a b18cr eg, hence more torque

[damienm]

Stock ek motor with a t28?

I dont think that would beat a eg b18cr

what a b16a with a t28? ofcourse itll beat a an egb18cr.

[nigs]

lolololol

[Ek4Vtir]

in all seriousness guys LOL, keep to N/A : )

What sorta 1/4 times b18cr getting in eks here anyways?

[markoJEK1]

13.9 , stock motor, stock intake, ek1 exhaust.

[MikeyG]

i beat a egb18cr with my ek before, also dc5r and dc2r. depends on driver

[Killa From Manila]

h2b..

[Snoop_gee]

When an image says a 1000 words.

http://i324.photobucket.com/albums/k345/dustinc24/24o626p.jpg

[Ek4Vtir]

i beat a egb18cr with my ek before, also dc5r and dc2r. depends on driver

Im asumeing your driving a ek with b18cr?

Have you been able to take on turbo cars like wrx's aswell? or they on different level all together eh?

[jeffreymui]

mikey drives a ek b20vtec and so did i, can compete with wrx, but didnt try to take on the sti before

[Ek4Vtir]

mikey drives a ek b20vtec and so did i, can compete with wrx, but didnt try to take on the sti before

thats insane !

on average how much are you looking at a b20 conversion?

[MikeyG]

Im asumeing your driving a ek with b18cr?

Have you been able to take on turbo cars like wrx's aswell? or they on different level all together eh?

it was a b20vtec, i did take on turbos. eg 180sx, 200sx, wrx i beat them all i did take on a sti though it snapped me lol but i suggest you staying with your engine and dont street race casue if you do and you will get caught you will lose it big time like myself, 3 years

[jeffreymui]

everything stays on track or WSID

[Ek4Vtir]

it was a b20vtec, i did take on turbos. eg 180sx, 200sx, wrx i beat them all i did take on a sti though it snapped me lol but i suggest you staying with your engine and dont street race casue if you do and you will get caught you will lose it big time like myself, 3 years

nah doode no street racing for me lols, just simple daily drive that feels hella good :)

cos to be quite honest I feel like a snail at times with b16

[Limbo]

any day of the week, your talking about boosted vs N/A, in a straight line n/a generally will not have a chance


Stock ek motor with a t28?

I dont think that would beat a eg b18cr


H22 is prob the cheapest option. All conversions there is ability to keep a/c. You just need to work around it.

[cheapdouchebag]

question:
a stock b18cr, would a b16a2 be able to beat it with camwork, headwork, boltons and that infamous spoon black blade for the block?

just asking, b16a2 seems to be very very popular im just thinking no way is the b16's potential cut short by b18cr stock...
or is it?

[geeang]

Far too many variables to say, you need to be more specific rather than just "camwork/headwork/boltons". One variation of that combination compared to another could be a competely different beast, plus you have to take the gearbox into account.
The stock gearbox usually accompanying a B18CR has vastly better ratios + final drive + LSD compared to a B16A2.

[turtle187]

question:
a stock b18cr, would a b16a2 be able to beat it with camwork, headwork, boltons and that infamous spoon black blade for the block?

just asking, b16a2 seems to be very very popular im just thinking no way is the b16's potential cut short by b18cr stock...
or is it?

ive done it before, a major fact is the driver of the car also, yes alot of ppl say b16a's arent that much fun but when you have a jap spec b16a with internal work you love it due to the beautiful sound of the cross over, that you will not get as much in a b18cr, i say this with confidence because ive driven many b20's many b18cr but the vtec crossover is not nearlly as good as the b16a's, wells thats my 2 cents anyways

[amant02]

coming from an em1 owner i reckon b16a is pretty good, my car is basically stock i have ripped r33's gt-t or gts easily. specially comparing arround the corners the em1 (b16a) are beautiful machines. Considering you have an ek4 your car should be faster, i think ur chasis is lesser weight then my em1. I also like my crossover i think it sounds just perfect outa my exhaust, and its very powerful. I have even raced my mates b18c1 didnt even stand a chance against my b16a2. Thats just my view after owning a few b series cars.

[Limo]

if you want to stay NA, just work your b16a, you have a good engine to start with and to replace it with say a b18 would be wasting time n money for the gains. alot of other areas you can upgrade besides the engine or bolt on's like suspension, drivetrain etc.

i was in a similar boat as you a few yrs back.. but i choose to turbo.. have havent looked back :)

[xntrik]

coming from an em1 owner i reckon b16a is pretty good, my car is basically stock i have ripped r33's gt-t or gts easily. specially comparing arround the corners the em1 (b16a) are beautiful machines. Considering you have an ek4 your car should be faster, i think ur chasis is lesser weight then my em1. I also like my crossover i think it sounds just perfect outa my exhaust, and its very powerful. I have even raced my mates b18c1 didnt even stand a chance against my b16a2. Thats just my view after owning a few b series cars.



.........

[d15z1SUX]

just slash the tyres on the eg b18cr...

[kraiye]

mate you got 2 options... turbo or more displacement. no more to say on that. pick one and do it.


question:
a stock b18cr, would a b16a2 be able to beat it with camwork, headwork, boltons and that infamous spoon black blade for the block?

just asking, b16a2 seems to be very very popular im just thinking no way is the b16's potential cut short by b18cr stock...
or is it?

my em1 b16 has ctr pistons, heavily worked head and good bolt ons. i was beaten by an em1 with jap spec b18c. now... stop asking and go research turbos or b20/h22 ;):thumbsup:

[NightKids]

mate you got 2 options... turbo or more displacement. no more to say on that. pick one and do it.



my em1 b16 has ctr pistons, heavily worked head and good bolt ons. i was beaten by an em1 with jap spec b18c. now... stop asking and go research turbos or b20/h22 ;):thumbsup:

stop posting & learn how to drive ;):thumbsup:

[kraiye]

lol
gg pwned

[seihoa]

it was a b20vtec, i did take on turbos. eg 180sx, 200sx, wrx i beat them all i did take on a sti though it snapped me lol but i suggest you staying with your engine and dont street race casue if you do and you will get caught you will lose it big time like myself, 3 years

Probably not boosted turbo cars.

No point building N/A cars trying to beat turbos as its just a waste of money in my eyes.

When the turbo guys spend money on basic mods n up the boost n beat most hondas off the line.

But i think ek b18 with basic mods n tune should beat a EG with just a b18

[Tai]

Who cares who beats who, at the end of the day it's just a civic.

[NightKids]

Who cares who beats who, at the end of the day it's just a civic.

No you are wrong. It's the power of dreams!

[sinseven]

such a broad question to hard to say

[mocchi]

No you are wrong. It's the power of dreams!

It's the power of dreams! It's love!!!!!!!

[NightKids]

It's the power of dreams! It's love!!!!!!!

This man. Speaks da truth.

[GenesisEG]

People asking why bother with a B18 when a B16 can be worked to provide almost as much power, perhaps even more?

Torque. Pulling power makes all the difference. B18 and B16 with equal mods, B18 will always win because it produces more torque. Doesn't matter if the peak power is the same or not. The larger the capacity of the engine, the more potential it has to produce torque.

People need to learn the difference between torque and power.

High power is obtained at high gears. This figure means squat in pulling a car off the line or out of a corner, it is simply a measure of how fast the engine can make the wheels spin. Dyno readings are obtained by spinning a magnet inside a coil and measuring the voltage it produces, it's all about wheel speed.

Torque is the turning force of the engine, and is greatest in first gear, reducing as the gears go up. It is a measure of how easily the engine can turn the wheels.

High power, low torque cars are more susceptible to getting bogged down on launches, and their acceleration is much lower.

Low power, high torque cars have a much lower top speed, but can accelerate much more quickly.

Big trucks have massive torque, and if you ever watch one take off without a trailer attached, you'll understand what I mean.

I have a friend that has a V8 with only 270hp at the wheels. My old V8 had 600hp. His torque, on the other hand, was almost 1.5 times mine, and while I could only pull 12's on the strip, he could pull 8's.

Power is not everything. You need to learn to balance your torque, power, engine response, braking power and turning ability. When you build your car keeping all these things in mind, it will be a weapon. Until then, it will always be just another half-baked ricer.

So, regarding wanting to beat an EG B18C, good luck. The EG will always have one advantage over you, that's weight. Mod for mod, the EG will always be faster, assuming the drivers are of equal skill. It will corner better, brake better, accelerate better... Having said that, I have no idea of the quality you are hoping to achieve out of your car. If you just want a fast car, whack a turbo on and be done with it. If you want a GOOD car, then sit down and do some research about what makes a well rounded, balanced car, and figure out what you need to do in order to achieve that.

[Stig]

dont be cheap, do a k series swap and strip the interior :thumbsup:

[kraiye]

GenesisEG: well said. People keep forgetting about torque 'cause everyone seems to talk kW/hp. Frustrating! And that's exactly why I lost to a B18. On the Dyno I had slightly more power but on the road he obviously had slightly more torque. If we had a straight track several k's long I probably would have slowly caught back up. Me with the top speed advantage, him with the acceleration advantage.

So, as I said, boost the b16 for more torque or increase displacement for more torque :thumbsup: "Torque wins races"

[redefine]

People asking why bother with a B18 when a B16 can be worked to provide almost as much power, perhaps even more?

Torque. Pulling power makes all the difference. B18 and B16 with equal mods, B18 will always win because it produces more torque. Doesn't matter if the peak power is the same or not. The larger the capacity of the engine, the more potential it has to produce torque.

People need to learn the difference between torque and power.

High power is obtained at high gears. This figure means squat in pulling a car off the line or out of a corner, it is simply a measure of how fast the engine can make the wheels spin. Dyno readings are obtained by spinning a magnet inside a coil and measuring the voltage it produces, it's all about wheel speed.

Torque is the turning force of the engine, and is greatest in first gear, reducing as the gears go up. It is a measure of how easily the engine can turn the wheels.

High power, low torque cars are more susceptible to getting bogged down on launches, and their acceleration is much lower.

Low power, high torque cars have a much lower top speed, but can accelerate much more quickly.

Big trucks have massive torque, and if you ever watch one take off without a trailer attached, you'll understand what I mean.

I have a friend that has a V8 with only 270hp at the wheels. My old V8 had 600hp. His torque, on the other hand, was almost 1.5 times mine, and while I could only pull 12's on the strip, he could pull 8's.

Power is not everything. You need to learn to balance your torque, power, engine response, braking power and turning ability. When you build your car keeping all these things in mind, it will be a weapon. Until then, it will always be just another half-baked ricer.

So, regarding wanting to beat an EG B18C, good luck. The EG will always have one advantage over you, that's weight. Mod for mod, the EG will always be faster, assuming the drivers are of equal skill. It will corner better, brake better, accelerate better... Having said that, I have no idea of the quality you are hoping to achieve out of your car. If you just want a fast car, whack a turbo on and be done with it. If you want a GOOD car, then sit down and do some research about what makes a well rounded, balanced car, and figure out what you need to do in order to achieve that.


one HUUUGE thing your forgetting about. when power/torque figures are quoted theyre exclusively peak power/torque.
power is produced at every point on the rpm range except for 0rpm.
and gearing...gearing.

what your v8 and your mates differed was probably 1. launch traction, 2. torque/power curve, and 3. gearing

it annoys me when people state that torque is more important then power, cause its not. a low torque high power engine will always out accelerate a high torque low power engine as long as you get the right gearing relevent to the engine. for example. 2 cars, same everything except engine (for the sake of argument same driver too) one engine is more powerfull, the other has slightly more torque (lets assume for the sake of argument that the curve in both engines is relatively flat and the engines have the same gearing) the engine with more torque will accelerate faster off the line, but very quickly will reach redline, where the engine with more power will accelerate through and pass the engine with more torque, as its essentially gear 1 vs 2, with the more powerfull engine always beign in a lower gear longer, and therefore resulting in more torque AT THE WHEELS, despite the actual engine having less torque at the flywheel.
where this dosent happen (like in that v8 scenario) you have a bad power curve brought on by (im assuming) bad supercharger design/large turbo introducing lots of lag. (i assime you used a charger to make that much power) or other things. this is why all those >1000hp supras cant even run 11's, despite the supra being a barge, the power is totally useless because it dosent come on untill the last 1-500 of your rpm range.
another example of this is a roots blown pushrod v8 vs a 1000hp supra. the roots blown v8 has lots of usable torque as its POWER is produced throughout the ideal rev range for the v8 compared to the 1000hp supra which produces no power untill the last .5k of the rev range, so effectively, the v8 is running at a HIGHER POWER the majority of the time, with the supra only overtaking the v8 in terms of power production for a fraction of a second before each gear change

thing is power isnt some abscract figure, physics/engineering guys will agree power is a measure of the energy transferred every second. 1kw is 1000 joules of energy transferred every second. torque is just rotational force, and its very easy for the engine to produce alot of torque and not actually get anywhere fast. eg high torque low power can get to a speed quickly, but that speed is greatly limited by the power of your engine, and its possible to have an engine with lower torque but higher power accelerating much quicker because of gearing. people forget that quoted torque figures are at the fly, not at the wheels.

thats the thing. torque is just there, whereas power can take advantage of gearing.

another example b16b produces 160Nm of torque whereas the d16y4 produces 144Nm of torque. given this difference, if you were only looking at torque you would only excpect the b16b to be a small ammount quicker, cause theres only a 14Nm difference in the torque, thats only 8% 'slower'.
but obviously the b16b is MUCH quicker then this. and that can be seen when you compare the b16b's 136kw to the d16y4's 88kw, which is a whole 35% less power, which sounds more reasonable. this is coupled with the gear box aswell which is suited to the b16b to take advantage of this extra power.
infact, the b16a1 has the same quoted torque figure as the d16y4, but its much faster. if torque was much more important then power you'd see the b16a1 only narrowly beating a d16y4, but obviously that is absurd.

"Low power, high torque cars have a much lower top speed, but can accelerate much more quickly."
if your low power high torque car can accelerate faster then your low torque high power car, you have a serious problem either in your power curve, or your gearing :zip:

im not saying torque is not important at all, cause it clearly is and you have to carefully look at where the torque is produced in the rpm range based on application and where you are going to use it. i have just assumed a straight drag scenario. but power IS more important then torque.




also, if torque won races, you'd see alot more diesels in motorsport

[GenesisEG]

one HUUUGE thing your forgetting about. when power/torque figures are quoted theyre exclusively peak power/torque.
power is produced at every point on the rpm range except for 0rpm.
and gearing...gearing.

True, but I think you'll find that in every post I've made on this forum, I've supported N/A cars purely for the fact that generally speaking, their power curve is far more predictable and far more linear than that of boosted cars (I say in general, I know it's possible to achieve a similar result using boost but it's far more expensive).


what your v8 and your mates differed was probably 1. launch traction, 2. torque/power curve, and 3. gearing

Same gearing, he had slightly better traction but not enough to make 4 seconds difference... It was the torque that made the difference.


it annoys me when people state that torque is more important then power, cause its not.

I don't think I ever said that one is more important than the other. In fact, I'm quite sure I never said it.

What I did say, was that people pay far too much attention to getting massive power output without considering their torque output. People keep talking about modding 1.6L engines and making them more powerful than 1.8L engines, and that may be so, but there is a reason the 1.8L is better, and that's torque. Assuming the peak power of the engine is the same, the engine with more torque wins, hands down.

Anyone who has ever raced on a track, or anywhere for that matter, knows that being able to drive at 400kph doesn't mean alot when you're facing corners. The car that launches faster and can handle corners faster, will always come out on top, and I've proven that in practice. My 600hp ute can quite comfortably sit on 330kph (I've done it before), but it gets eaten alive by anything with decent torque and the ability to handle corners.


a low torque high power engine will always out accelerate a high torque low power engine as long as you get the right gearing relevent to the engine. for example. 2 cars, same everything except engine (for the sake of argument same driver too) one engine is more powerfull, the other has slightly more torque (lets assume for the sake of argument that the curve in both engines is relatively flat and the engines have the same gearing) the engine with more torque will accelerate faster off the line, but very quickly will reach redline, where the engine with more power will accelerate through and pass the engine with more torque, as its essentially gear 1 vs 2, with the more powerfull engine always beign in a lower gear longer, and therefore resulting in more torque AT THE WHEELS, despite the actual engine having less torque at the flywheel.

Lower torque at the engine, higher torque at the wheels... I'm confused. Torque is not produced at the wheels, it's the ability of the engine to make the wheels turn under load. More torque means faster acceleration, because the engine can make the wheels turn more easily under load. It doesn't matter if you have a million horsepower, if your torque is low, you will never be able to make the mass of the car move forward.

That's why high powered 4 cylinder cars lose alot of their driving potential when they have 4 people sitting in them, whereas an 8 cylinder engine with much more torque can move that extra mass with relative ease.

Having said that, I repeat, I never said that power is unimportant, it's just not as important as people think. In real-life driving, meaning driving on roads with corners and the need to stop and start from time to time, torque becomes a major factor in performance. If you were doing laps around a ring, then it becomes less important and peak power comes into play, since you're moving around in top gear for long periods of time. Lets assume, for the sake of being realistic, that this doesn't happen often...

As you say, gearing is important, but again, we're not talking so much about gearing as we are about engines. The question was, why use a B18 when a B16 can produce as much, if not more horsepower. The answer is torque. If you modify a B16 and a B18 so that both produce 200hp at the engine, the B18 will always win, always, because it has more torque.


where this dosent happen (like in that v8 scenario) you have a bad power curve brought on by (im assuming) bad supercharger design/large turbo introducing lots of lag. (i assime you used a charger to make that much power) or other things.

No, purely N/A, with shortened gear ratios. I spent alot of money making my car very powerful, before I fully realised what I was doing.

Anyway, even a large turbo on a 5.7L V8 has very little lag, as the exhaust output is massive even at idle. I was quoted for a T1000 turbo with an expected power output of 1700rwhp, 80% boost at 1800rpm. No lag there.


this is why all those >1000hp supras cant even run 11's, despite the supra being a barge, the power is totally useless because it dosent come on untill the last 1-500 of your rpm range.
another example of this is a roots blown pushrod v8 vs a 1000hp supra. the roots blown v8 has lots of usable torque as its POWER is produced throughout the ideal rev range for the v8 compared to the 1000hp supra which produces no power untill the last .5k of the rev range, so effectively, the v8 is running at a HIGHER POWER the majority of the time, with the supra only overtaking the v8 in terms of power production for a fraction of a second before each gear change

Which is why I always advise against sticking a turbo on a Civic. The power band is too narrow, and the power curve is too sharp, and it makes for a really difficult time driving on anything but a straight road.


thing is power isnt some abscract figure, physics/engineering guys will agree power is a measure of the energy transferred every second. 1kw is 1000 joules of energy transferred every second. torque is just rotational force, and its very easy for the engine to produce alot of torque and not actually get anywhere fast. eg high torque low power can get to a speed quickly, but that speed is greatly limited by the power of your engine, and its possible to have an engine with lower torque but higher power accelerating much quicker because of gearing. people forget that quoted torque figures are at the fly, not at the wheels.

True, a car with a million Nm of torque and no power will not move very fast at all, but now you're talking extremes. A car with a million horsepower and no torque will not be able to move off the line to begin with, even if it could travel at the speed of light once it got moving.


thats the thing. torque is just there, whereas power can take advantage of gearing.

True, torque is torque and it's hard to increase the torque output of an engine without increasing its capacity, which is why the B18 is superior to the B16, again.

The B18 can produce just as much power as the B16, but on top of that, it produces more torque, which will result in quicker acceleration throughout the entire rev range.


another example b16b produces 160Nm of torque whereas the d16y4 produces 144Nm of torque. given this difference, if you were only looking at torque you would only excpect the b16b to be a small ammount quicker, cause theres only a 14Nm difference in the torque, thats only 8% 'slower'.
but obviously the b16b is MUCH quicker then this. and that can be seen when you compare the b16b's 136kw to the d16y4's 88kw, which is a whole 35% less power, which sounds more reasonable. this is coupled with the gear box aswell which is suited to the b16b to take advantage of this extra power.
infact, the b16a1 has the same quoted torque figure as the d16y4, but its much faster. if torque was much more important then power you'd see the b16a1 only narrowly beating a d16y4, but obviously that is absurd.

Again, I NEVER said that power was unimportant. Please read my post very carefully, because I'm SURE that I never said it.


if your low power high torque car can accelerate faster then your low torque high power car, you have a serious problem either in your power curve, or your gearing

...or torque plays a bigger role than you seem to believe.


im not saying torque is not important at all, cause it clearly is and you have to carefully look at where the torque is produced in the rpm range based on application and where you are going to use it. i have just assumed a straight drag scenario. but power IS more important then torque.

I never assume straight drag scenarios, because drag cars are absolutely useless everywhere else. Plus, Civics are a really bad choice for drag cars since they are both underpowered and front wheel drive. In a drag, you want big power, big torque and the wheels being driven by the engine to actually be touching the ground when you accelerate... Rear wheel drive cars press their drive wheels into the ground under acceleration which is why they will always be superior to front wheel drive cars in drags.

Not only that, but drags really don't interest me. To me, driving skill is all about balance. Acceleration, braking and cornering. Drag racers only have to master one, track and mountain racers have to master all three.


also, if torque won races, you'd see alot more diesels in motorsport

There are some diesels in motorsport, but diesel engines are not as widely used by the general populace at the moment, and the engines themselves are not as highly developed. I think, given time, you will see more diesel engines hit the tracks. It's just going to take time before people start looking for ways to utilise the torque they can produce without sacrificing too much power.

I apologise for any harshness in my tone, I just got home from a 16 hour day at work and I'm a bit tired. I'm really just over this misconception that big power figures are the be-all and end-all of performance. Balance is where it's at, and a balanced car will ALWAYS beat an unbalanced, high-powered car in any situation except for a long, long straight.

[NightKids]

You just spent 16hrs @ work & you quote every lil sentence to try & rebut it? No wonder you can sound a lil harsh & grumpy.

Hmmm & from your 1st post it's clearly evident that you're saying that torque is more important than power when it comes to 'winning races'. Anyone that reads that would feel the same way even though you didn't directly say it (or else you wouldn't have gone on & on about it right?) So no need to justify....

[Ek4Vtir]

intense !! this is getting interesting learning a lot from your post guys :)

I believe the b18 will beat the b16 due to torque 1.8L engine vs 1.6L only make sense in that matter.

If you add a b18cr block to the b16, would that rival the b18cr? something bout b16 bottom end being stronger?
But it doesnt put in to account the b18cr has a bigger 1.8L engine?

What are your views on this guys :)

[damienm]

If you add a b18cr block to the b16, would that rival the b18cr? something bout b16 bottom end being stronger?


if youre swapping the b16 bottom end for the b18 bottom end why would the b16 bottom end be relevant?
and no it wouldnt rival it cause the b18cr would have better gearing and better cams

[Benson]

If you put a B18c7 in your EK you'll be even with the EG B18c7. Add a B20vtc and you'll leave it behind. B20vtec is not only good for racing cause it extra displacement, around town its a much better engine to drive compared to the b16a and b18c.

If you do have the money (Basic comversion 10k), straight up k20 conversion

[RtN]

This b16b stroked to 1.8 seems to be faster than stock b20 vtec would go, is he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muu7uCPrFEc, skip to 45s

[Ek4Vtir]

thats looks pretty insane !

[redefine]

I apologise for any harshness in my tone, I just got home from a 16 hour day at work and I'm a bit tired. I'm really just over this misconception that big power figures are the be-all and end-all of performance. Balance is where it's at, and a balanced car will ALWAYS beat an unbalanced, high-powered car in any situation except for a long, long straight.

all good man. im sorry if i sounded harsh too. at least its good to talk to someone who knows what theyre talking about.

but first im gonna make some assumpsions. its about an eg vs ek, they are very similar cars, the eg being slightly lighter... so for the sake of argument, we'll say cornering isnt an issue, or that the cars with the engines we're comparing have the same cornering ability. this is why i said in a drag basis, because we're comparing engines, and theres no real use talking about corners when your comparing engines...esp when the two engiens are both FF bseries.


True, but I think you'll find that in every post I've made on this forum, I've supported N/A cars purely for the fact that generally speaking, their power curve is far more predictable and far more linear than that of boosted cars (I say in general, I know it's possible to achieve a similar result using boost but it's far more expensive).

and i agree. (i havent really seen many of your other posts :p). i personally cant decide between na and boosted. i like the smoothness of na...but at the same time i like the efficiency of a turbo, but i dont like its complexity, so theres alot going for both sides....buut thats not what this is about :p


Same gearing, he had slightly better traction but not enough to make 4 seconds difference... It was the torque that made the difference.

well tbh to make any serious assesment i think i'd need to see the cars and see the power curves to compare



I don't think I ever said that one is more important than the other. In fact, I'm quite sure I never said it.

"Torque. Pulling power makes all the difference. B18 and B16 with equal mods, B18 will always win because it produces more torque"
"the engine with more torque wins, hands down."
pretty sure this implies that torque is more important and that power should be second in consideration to torque.

but i should probably add that b18 and b16 with equal mods, b18 would also have more power too...which is actually why it will always win.


What I did say, was that people pay far too much attention to getting massive power output without considering their torque output. People keep talking about modding 1.6L engines and making them more powerful than 1.8L engines, and that may be so, but there is a reason the 1.8L is better, and that's torque. Assuming the peak power of the engine is the same, the engine with more torque wins, hands down.

but in this scenario people still arent taking the curve into account. because of the extra capacity and torque, the b18 will make power easier down low. you'll probably find that if you compare the power curves, the b18 will actually have more POWER untill the high end where the b16 takes over.
increasing torque is a way to increase your power throughout your rev range, but its not torque your aiming for. its power. torque, especially peak torque really is actually meaningless when you talk about cars acceleration because of the gear box which is effectively a torque multiplier, what you want is power. i'll write more on this later in the post.


Anyone who has ever raced on a track, or anywhere for that matter, knows that being able to drive at 400kph doesn't mean alot when you're facing corners. The car that launches faster and can handle corners faster, will always come out on top, and I've proven that in practice. My 600hp ute can quite comfortably sit on 330kph (I've done it before), but it gets eaten alive by anything with decent torque and the ability to handle corners.

not to be rude, but cause we're comparing engines, we're not talking about corners :p


Lower torque at the engine, higher torque at the wheels... I'm confused. Torque is not produced at the wheels, it's the ability of the engine to make the wheels turn under load. More torque means faster acceleration, because the engine can make the wheels turn more easily under load. It doesn't matter if you have a million horsepower, if your torque is low, you will never be able to make the mass of the car move forward.

That's why high powered 4 cylinder cars lose alot of their driving potential when they have 4 people sitting in them, whereas an 8 cylinder engine with much more torque can move that extra mass with relative ease.

yeah torque at the engine, torque at the wheels. if you dont understand that you must not know how gearboxes work. just you never hear torque at the wheels or engine, its just torque. after the power comes out of the engine it has T torque, that goes through a gearbox, which is essentially a torque multiplier, so the resultant torque turning your wheels is completely different to the torque the engine is giving out. i can have 2 engines...they both have 200kw. one has 200Nm of torque and the other has 400Nm of torque...but the first one has a 5.5k redline, and the other has a rediculous 11k redline. its extreme i know, but its to prove a point. if you put a 2:1 reducer on the high revving engine, the two engines will accelerate at exactly the same pace cause your essentially halfing the output speed and doubling the torque, but i couldnt do this if the power wasnt there. THIS is why power is more important with power you can do alot of things. especially when you realise that torque x angular velocity = power. if you use a gearbox to reduce the speed of rotation, you gain torque.

also, torque isnt the ability to move wheels...torque is the rotational force output by the engine. slightly different wording, but its important. cause your engine can be outputting alot of torque but not getting anywhere. also. power is the measure of energy converted per second. the engine producing a higher power at any given time will convert more stored energy in the fuel to rotational energy at the wheels.

also, alot of high powered 4cyl cars suffer with passengars cause theyre light, and a passengar can weigh anything from 60-100kg, which is a shitload in a small coupe


Having said that, I repeat, I never said that power is unimportant, it's just not as important as people think. In real-life driving, meaning driving on roads with corners and the need to stop and start from time to time, torque becomes a major factor in performance. If you were doing laps around a ring, then it becomes less important and peak power comes into play, since you're moving around in top gear for long periods of time. Lets assume, for the sake of being realistic, that this doesn't happen often...

just for the record, i never said that you said that power was unimportant (tongue twister :p). but your clearly implying that torque is more important then power, which i disagree with. yes, torque is usefull in drivability, but when it comes to straight line, power is where its at.


As you say, gearing is important, but again, we're not talking so much about gearing as we are about engines. The question was, why use a B18 when a B16 can produce as much, if not more horsepower. The answer is torque. If you modify a B16 and a B18 so that both produce 200hp at the engine, the B18 will always win, always, because it has more torque.

but you always have to consider gearing. the origonal question was how to make an ek beat an egb18. with the b16 you can produce just as much peak power yes...but WHERE is the rest of the power produced? its likely the mods for the b16 would focus on top end power, leaving the bottom end lacking, and i doubt the rev limit of a b16 vs b18 would be enough to use gearing. yes you have to look at torque, but in the end its about power, as torque is only a way to produce power. you'll find looking at the power curves, that any time the b18 is pulling away from the b16 the b18 is producing more power, and at other times, when the b16 is catching up, the b16 will be producing more power, despite producing less torque.



Which is why I always advise against sticking a turbo on a Civic. The power band is too narrow, and the power curve is too sharp, and it makes for a really difficult time driving on anything but a straight road.

well...IF i were to turbo a b16a it would be a fairly small turbo focusing on response and i wouldnt want any lag past 3k. i wouldnt go crazy with boost.


True, a car with a million Nm of torque and no power will not move very fast at all, but now you're talking extremes. A car with a million horsepower and no torque will not be able to move off the line to begin with, even if it could travel at the speed of light once it got moving.

i was never talking in those extremes, all i said was its possible for a high power low torque engine to out accelerate a high torque low power engine.


True, torque is torque and it's hard to increase the torque output of an engine without increasing its capacity, which is why the B18 is superior to the B16, again.

The B18 can produce just as much power as the B16, but on top of that, it produces more torque, which will result in quicker acceleration throughout the entire rev range.

wrong, if you have the power, you can produce more torque through gearing. this is where i said you can play around with power, if you have high torque low power you cant do much with it, but if you have high power low torque you can play around with gearing and have both a high top speed and great acceleration due to gearing. you CANNOT ignore gearing. and its for the same reason that better final drives are so sought after, even though it dosent actually effect the power or torque output of the engine. however you'll find that a better final drive will actually increase the torque transferred to the wheels, while at the same time reducing the speed that that torque is delivered.

sure torque is an easy way to increase the power of an engine, but it essentially comes down to power, not torque.

consider this. the v6 commodore has 305Nm of torque, roughly double the torque of some honda engines....even despite the weight, you would expect this torque to kick hondas ass...but you regularly see hondas leaving the v6's in the dust. if torque was as important as you say the v6 would have a much better chance against the hondas even despite its weight


I never assume straight drag scenarios, because drag cars are absolutely useless everywhere else. Plus, Civics are a really bad choice for drag cars since they are both underpowered and front wheel drive. In a drag, you want big power, big torque and the wheels being driven by the engine to actually be touching the ground when you accelerate... Rear wheel drive cars press their drive wheels into the ground under acceleration which is why they will always be superior to front wheel drive cars in drags.

if you want to talk about corners you introduce suspension geometry, chassis dynamics and coilovers which is irrelevent to an engine choice. you ALWAYS have to talk about drag when your comparing engines, otherwise your comparing setups, not engines.




There are some diesels in motorsport, but diesel engines are not as widely used by the general populace at the moment, and the engines themselves are not as highly developed. I think, given time, you will see more diesel engines hit the tracks. It's just going to take time before people start looking for ways to utilise the torque they can produce without sacrificing too much power.


you obviously dont know much about diesels.
1. diesels produce lots of torque, but not much POWER
2. the power band in a diesel is very small.

petrol engines are preferrable because they produce a wider power band, and more power for an equivelant torque. let me put it this way, the higher the rpm that you can produce the torque, the more usefull it is. THIS is what power means

[hisoka]

i didnt read the whole thread.

but to answer question, b18cR your ek will be almost the same, depending on driver.

if you put more money and a strip it out a bit, you should be better at the track or strip.

a b20 would also beat a b18cr eg

[GenesisEG]

LOL, thanks for the quote and respond post, I like it.

I was questioned about it before, why do I do it after a 16 hour day at work? It helps me to focus and keep on track. If I take one point and respond to it, it's easier not to get carried away on a tangent and rave about nothing for 3 paragraphs.

It also helps to alleviate confusion as to who I am responding to, with so many people involved in the discussion, it can be quite easy to misunderstand who I was speaking to.

I'm going to bow out graciously here, because I'm not really 100% sure about everything we're talking about and I'm sure I've made some mistakes somewhere along the line.

I will, however, stick to my belief that overall balance is important when building a car, which I honestly don't believe you really disagreed with at all.

I have seen the result of a well balanced build on a WRX, and with 200awkW, it wasn't really all that powerful in comparison to my 330rwkW ute, but it did 0-100kph in 3.5 seconds and has hit 320kph before. It handles like it's glued to the road too. That, in my humble opinion, is how we should build cars. It didn't have a stupidly high peak power rating, but the performance figures speak for themselves. I have never, ever been in a car as fast as that before, and I've been in a few cars.

People that throw peak power figures around as though they were the sole influence on performance really need to stop and have a good long look at how a car should be built.

Anyways, redefine, thanks for the education and the patience. I'm glad we had this discussion, it was a learning experience for me, and I hope you got at least something out of it also.

[redefine]

i did :)

and thank you.

i completely agree that a balanced car will always be faster, as well as more fun, then one simply chasing peak figures for power and torque. i hope i wasnt too agressive in my response...

[kraiye]

Good to see a real converstion going on without flaming and name calling and all the other BS that gets thrown around :thumbsup:

very informative info from both sides. cheers guys




to the OP i still say b20 or boost!

[NightKids]

i did :)

and thank you.

i completely agree that a balanced car will always be faster, as well as more fun, then one simply chasing peak figures for power and torque. i hope i wasnt too agressive in my response...

Lovely ending! Rep points to you both if I could.

You guys gonna meet up and have a coffee together ozhonda stylez?

[bennjamin]

but to answer question, b18cR your ek will be almost the same, depending on driver.



How much is a EK with a b18c7 setup ? Because a eg with full interior (minus ps and ac....15kg ?) is 980kg. I would think a ek running the same way would be around 1100 or alittle less. Correct me if wrong !
Assuming that , around 80-100kg more gets the eg ahead. Same as driving with a passenger so its not much , but its there.

[hisoka]

yeah it is there. but you wouldnt even notice that tiny fraction in a straight line.

its a little under 1100 so your right.

the only reason i would go eg b18cr over ek b18cr is if i was a hardout eg fan. otherwise ek has better centre console and a more modern shape

[DD2]

Leave the B16A and go with an I/H/E, 4.9 final drive, lighter flywheel, LSD + a tune.

And it's money not wasted if you decide to upgrade to b20 / b18cr / H2B as you can keep the box.


Check this video out for inspiration...


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[geeang]

Leave the B16A and go with an I/H/E, 4.9 final drive, lighter flywheel, LSD + a tune.

And it's money not wasted if you decide to upgrade to b20 / b18cr / H2B as you can keep the box.


Check this video out for inspiration...


If it's for a daily, I'd stick with 4.7 Final Drive, 4.9 is a bit of a pain for a daily.

[DD2]

4.9 ftw!

[geeang]

4.9 ftw!

Not if you ever go on the highway, you'll be sitting on 4000rpm @ 100km/h, pretty much in VTEC while cruising @ 110km/h (which gets tiring after about 30 seconds).

[GenesisEG]

I'd love to do coffee, but I live in Sydney. I was in Sunshine the last couple of weekends doing some renovations on a house (don't you love interstate love jobs?) but I don't get down to Melbourne much.

As for the weight difference, again, something very much underestimated. Perhaps not as noticeable on the long straights (inertia and weight are good friends), but acceleration is hinged on weight, and so is braking and cornering. I think the only real disadvantage EG's have over EK's in regards to racing is chassis rigidity, the age of the car makes them a little less rigid, but that can be overcome without too much hassle.

I bought an EG4, all hooked up for an ITR brake conversion, and once I get my brakes, suspension, wheels and tyres done, I'll be saving for a B18C. That's my little monster. I've already done Spoon boss kit with Nardi wheel, OEM shift boot, Buddy Club short shifter (B series shifter on a D series box, goes great) and Spoon duracon shift knob. Got some big plans, just gonna take time.

Hoping to do larger rotors with Spoon calipers, braided lines and whatnot, all the good stuff after I'm done with the B18. Can't wait.

[redefine]

^ :thumbsup: sounds like quite the little beast you'll have there

and agreed on the weight issue. N/A cars generally take advantage of light weight chassis much more then boosted cars, where you can just kick up the boost (to an extent), so weight effects it much more.

[MM89]

ITR brake conversion is pretty heavy compared to standard EK4/DC2 four stud 262mm conversion. And we are talking about rotational mass here.

[GenesisEG]

It's just a stepping stone, but the ITR brakes should pull up the Civic pretty quickly. Once I get the 18 in there and things are running well, then I'll start to upgrade parts slowly, like upgrading the ITR rotors and callipers up to Spoon or something.

I was looking at getting TEIN Super Streets, but apparently my mate is now sponsored by HSD with his drift car, so maybe I'll see if I can sort something out with some HSD coilovers. Just hope they aren't too stiff...

I'm trying to design my car around canyon/mountain runs with a little daily driving on one side and perhaps a little track work on the other. It's really hard trying to cater for all three. Too much power, and it becomes unruly on the streets and mountain roads, and too little, and I'll get left for dead on the track... Oh noes.

[geeang]

I'd advise against the TEIN Super Streets unless you could get your hands on the stiffer Japanese version, the other ones are far too soft and wallowy for any sort of track work.

Also, B18C will be far from 'too much power' so I'm sure you'll be fine there ;)

[GenesisEG]

I think the B18C will be about right. K series motor would probably be too hardcore for what I want.

I dropped down from a 600hp car because I'm after balance now, and you'd be surprised how hard a 1.8L can go if it's tuned properly. If I wanted big power, I never would have bought a Civic in the first place. I was actually considering a Supra or R32 GTR as well, but since it's too hard to use massive power on the street, I decided to go for a more balanced, handling oriented car, and the Civic won that one.

By too much power, I meant for street and mountain use. Overly powerful cars are hard to control in corners because you have to be so careful with the throttle. I know I will never be a serious competitor on the track with a B18 (compared to all the K20's and K24's out there), but on the street, it's a weapon. As long as I can turn corners and pull the car up well, I'll be happy, the 18 is just to satisfy my craving for acceleration, since even a pissweak Civic can keep up with most cars on a downhill mountain pass if the handling work is done right (it's all about keeping up the pace). You should watch some Initial D!

[MM89]

depends on the nature of the track. if you're at a track like sandown where there are long stretched straights, then of course you will find a B18C slow compared to all the turbos.

on a tighter track, even a B16 is competitive. you won't really be left for dead in a place like winton.

[redefine]

tight tracks you can almost ignore power. an example is the F-SAE. the 600cc engines are limited to a 20mm throttlebody restrictor. at first this seems crazy...but when you think about it. the cars are NEVER at 100% throttle cause the tracks are so tight....the cars can get to 100 in less then 4 seconds, but they never actualy get to 100 in practice. if you try at 100% throttle you'll either understeer or oversteer off the track (depending on how the car is balanced.

but i say ALMOST. even in very short straights if you have a short ratios and an agressive final drive it can make the difference...but only if the suspension and chassis is set up properly.

[503asy]

h22a it man. i smash b18cr's in my eg, im assuming a h in an ek would do the same

[BOOSTNCRX]

get short ratio gears. its all in the gearing. otherwise, do some aftermarket cam or up the compression and tune. or just get NOS!

[dc292177917]

after some long long long thread,
just one little question.
does beating a eg with b18 makes u fly?
at end of the day it's just a civic,
the chassis is built for daily use and some good control over corners.
if reali concerns beating ppl's car that much
why don't just get a quicker car with the money on mods?

[kraiye]

Because beating a civic with another civic makes u fly!

[thebob]

Impossible question, back in the day i beat a sydney head that came up here with a b18c eg and i was in a b18c ej8. I am by no means a good driver. Why not do as benson said and k swap, that way you dont really have to worry about being beaten by much. You can do the swap cheap if you source package deals from the states and do it in your garage. You get a 6spd box which is great for daily driving and you can have p/s and a/c. Or you can sit on the internet all day and wonder what if and waste time doing that.

[90LAN]

well if you have a mint condition eg with a b18cr motor and shit poorly condition ek with a b18cr
or vice versa

whos car do you think will win

comes down to more than just what motor you have in the car

more to the fact who's engine is running better, tuned better, combination of parts that work together, suspension , tyres, clutch, set up, driver, etc

so end of the day some one could have a b16a that is faster than a b18cr

too many variables to say unless you find out for your self

most egs with b18crs do low 14's or less
so thats a something to aim for