Gearbox rebuilt, reinstalled- now car wont start

[bennjamin]

Hi guys - alittle bit of a difficult problem here.

I recently removed my l3 transmission , to replace a few bearings and clean it up - left my EG civic sitting disconnected for about 1 week - reinstalled the gearbox to all manual torque specs etc....seemingly installed everything back to where it belongs.

Now. I jumped in the drivers seat - and turned the key. The starter turns the motor over...struggling to ignite. Dam.

Ive checked almost everything -

BTW , before the gearbox getting taken out and reinstalled the car worked FINE.

* fuel pump is ok / fuel is being pumped through
*injectors are cycling
*There is spark , distributor is recently rebuilt.
*All loom is correctly reconnected - cant seem to see anything moved or crushed etc.
*Gearbox is not locked into any gear.
*battery is weak , but after testing a friends battery + distrutor + leads - the car still would not turn over.
*ground cables are reinstalled correctly.
*Checked all fuses - ECU , backup etc seem fine.
*main relay looks fine.
*Checked ECU codes - ECU is not hrowing any codes.
*When turning over , the car will ignite about 1 in 4 revolutions - BUT stall again. There is abit of white smoke blown out when this is happening........


I have been too busy to worry about this right now- but seriously WHAT should i look at checking out next ?
Is there something that i have totally missed....im starting to go alittle crazy about this !


Dave , John , anyone...advice please !

[Dnation]

Did u clean/wash down the engine bay??
This has happened to me twice after major work on my Ex corolla, and the problem was water sitting inside the spark plug chambers..
check that its all dry there..

thats all i can think of atm

Cheers
dave

[bennjamin]

thanks. . . . not the prob as i havent washed the engine ! ( altho i realyl hope it isnt leakage from the headgasket :( )

*btw dave how is the yellow MR2 going ? *

BACK on topic !

[Dnation]

its still ok..
My ED is the new project now but i had a finger accident while using an air-compressor and portable jack... (Lost 1/2 a finger)

im nearly half way with the conversion but havent worked on it for 3 weeks now due to injury..

[Weq]

I know u wouldnt remove the dizzy doing the gearbox install but i'll say it anyway - did u flip it 180deg's? How do the plugs looks? If ur pumping fuel fine, id say its timing related. check to see if ur belt is still lined up with the markings at TDC. but none of this should be effected with the gearbox install. My starter stuffed up after my install - but urs turns the engine fine. IMo sounds lke a timing issue.....

re heagasket thoughts: no way. it would mean ur loosing so much compression in every cylinder its not funny :) white smoke is normal for something thats sit for couple+weeks.

[bennjamin]

I know u wouldnt remove the dizzy doing the gearbox install but i'll say it anyway - did u flip it 180deg's? How do the plugs looks? If ur pumping fuel fine, id say its timing related. check to see if ur belt is still lined up with the markings at TDC. but none of this should be effected with the gearbox install. My starter stuffed up after my install - but urs turns the engine fine. IMo sounds lke a timing issue.....

re heagasket thoughts: no way. it would mean ur loosing so much compression in every cylinder its not funny :) white smoke is normal for something thats sit for couple+weeks.

Im just being paranoid about the headgasket Weq :p

But alas , i did not touch anything else from the gearbox install - the only electronical wiring i played with was disconnecting the negative , and starter motor wiring/o2 sensor etc.

My thought is timing related too...it jsut feels as if the spark is just missing the injector pulse to properly ignite. But wait i didnt touch the dizzy :( grr.

[ECU-MAN]

try changing the spark plugs Bren,

[Dnation]

yeah b-r-e-n....

:P

[Rufes1]

yeh, you might have fouled up the plugs, especially if its been pumping fuel in there. Try changing them

[bennjamin]

yeh, you might have fouled up the plugs, especially if its been pumping fuel in there. Try changing them

*UPDATE*

Changed to semi-fresh set of plugs , installed FRESH new battery too - car still struggles to ignite at all. IE hasnt changed anything. GRRRrr.
BTW i have found a couple of rubber grommets and a plastic plug from part of the loom SOMEWHERE...perhaps these are needed for the necessary grounding etc between something or rather ? :confused:

http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/data/2/79PLUG_WHITE.jpg *NOTE the black grommets are as large as say a 20cent piece...the white plastic bit is about 1cm across.*

[Limbo]

Check the earthing to your coils/igniters, check earthing to your starter motor.

Also check if you still have petrol!
Check fuel pump connections, and also your fuse box. Might have blown a critical fuse.

[Weq]

tried flipping the dizzy yet?

[bennjamin]

Car has half tank of fuel . . .which is reaching the injectors :(



tried flipping the dizzy yet?

as in flipping the actual shaft 180 degrees ? Ill give that a quick go 2mrw morning.
Dam this is shitting me .

[ECU-MAN]

I thought the dizzy can only go in one way, you can take the lug of the dizzy and put that on 180 out, but you will know if youv done that.

[bennjamin]

I thought the dizzy can only go in one way, you can take the lug of the dizzy and put that on 180 out, but you will know if youv done that.
Checked dizzy - correct that it can only slide in ONE way only. ( it has a distinct groove) .

Tryign soem other lil tests ...brb ! :)

[Weq]

Checked dizzy - correct that it can only slide in ONE way only. ( it has a distinct groove) .

Tryign soem other lil tests ...brb ! :)the dizzy can only be put on 1 way, but u can flip the little rotator thingy 180's (bit that slides into the cam). this will ****up ur igintion timing and cause u not to start like u are experiencing. before u take it off, mark out the bolt alignment so u dont mess the timing up.

[wynode]

Yeah Weq, the dizzy will only go in one way (ie the sproket like thing that goes into the cam).

Ben, those black rubber things look a bit like axle seals from your tranny (although axle seals are bigger than the size of a 20cent piece) :)

[Weq]

i not making this up. u can flip ur dizzy, trust me.

[ECU-MAN]

like I said above, ui have to remove the sproket drive and you can definantly put that in 180 out. but you will know you have removed the sproket drive. its not a thing that just falls off.

[bennjamin]

i not making this up. u can flip ur dizzy, trust me.
i believe you - but not easily...


Here is the talked about plug - http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/data/500/79DIZZYCLIP.jpg

The lower left is the top of the dizzy. The cam key shown , as is , will only fit back into the camshaft end one way. I tried several times ( by simply flipping the key 180 degrees) to fit it in as well - it would catch , but not fit in at all.
* a good question is WHY NOT ? - as when the dizzy + camshaft are out , they slide in perfect either way ?!?*


*UPDATE*

I played alittle with the timing - car spluttered into life for about 1 second then died again :( Grrr.

[Weq]

were ur plugs wet with fuel? how do they look? u may have flodded it by now, try starting it with ur foot on the accelerator to the floor. are al ur cams lining up wit the bottom end and timing marks? Is the rotor pointing to the correct spark plug wires? hmmmmmms

[bennjamin]

were ur plugs wet with fuel? how do they look? u may have flodded it by now, try starting it with ur foot on the accelerator to the floor.
Yup - a distinct smell of unburnt fuel coming from either the engine bay and or exhaust. What is the best way to eliminate the excess fuel ? keep starting WOT ? or dry it out somehow ?

[ECU-MAN]

spray copmressed air into the plennum chamber to evaporate the fuel.

Ben with all the dizzy bolts out crank the car and turn the dizzy slowly in a direction to see if it starts. try both directions, but dont go to far out of range, if she does fire, dont let it run long like this.

hold the dizzy from the metal part as you might get zapped from the cap end :)

[tinkerbell]

re-check the earths like Limbo said.

check camshaft timing as well

dizzy can only go one way.

remove sparkplugs and get NEW ones, leave out for whole day, refit and re-fire, put the battery on charge whilst waiting too.

u cant have ****ed much up when removing the tranny. (or can you?)

[Weq]

yeah i still dont get why timing could be off. u dont touch any of this gear when u remove it... :-|

[tinkerbell]

maybe the *full* story would take too long for ben to explain?

it really might just be a case of uncharged battery trying to start a car and it doesnt hit first crank -> wetting the sparkplugs...

bad luck really, just serves to remind that battery should be trickled if not being used for extended periods...

worst case is that it has a slight HG leak and this is preventing it to be started...

[bennjamin]

maybe the *full* story would take too long for ben to explain?

it really might just be a case of uncharged battery trying to start a car and it doesnt hit first crank -> wetting the sparkplugs...

bad luck really, just serves to remind that battery should be trickled if not being used for extended periods...

worst case is that it has a slight HG leak and this is preventing it to be started...

*full story* really is....gearbox taken out , rebuilt and put back in with NOTHING else major touched at all. Basically Dave , John and others - the car has remainded the same since step 1 .
The "struggling while trying to start" symptoms have remained the same even since replacing the battery , spark plugs , checking all wiring , replacing dizzy + leads with known good ones etc etc.

the timing has not been touched . The dizzy has been taken out and put back in - it has not been altered as it will only fit in one way - the top location was pre-definded via a mark before removing before too. Grr.

Anyone got a timing light and a spare half an hour ? :(

[Weq]

to use the timing light, u gotta have it running, lol...

have u checked the cam gears and crank line up?? could of jumped a tooth or 2 *somehow* definatly getting spark out of each lead? i might be thinking the coil could of fried by now..

[bennjamin]

to use the timing light, u gotta have it running, lol...

have u checked the cam gears and crank line up?? could of jumped a tooth or 2 *somehow* definatly getting spark out of each lead? i might be thinking the coil could of fried by now..
yeah i know it needs to be running *sigh*

But please someone remind me about the camgear/crank timing as i really am ready to punch it lol.

.....

[SiR JDM]

Just a thought, with my friends b16a conversion... similar problem.. similar symptoms..
Fuel was pumping.. there was a spark... plugs where new.. timing unchanged etc ..
Would turn over... but not ignite..

After hours and hours of us trying to figure it out the problem was the Ignition..he didn't bother changing from the CXi one to the VTi-R one.. Now i know you didn't really like change ignitions but mayb somethin disconnected there or somethin? just a thought

[tinkerbell]

hey ben, just posted on ClubRSX by BlackDC2 for you:

coil??? can you swap in a working coil??

[MKI4EVA]

there there ben............it'll run when it runs...............hahhaha. jk jk.

so are we going to settle this down the 1/4 one day or what mannnnn

ur stalling arent cha!!!..............hehhehe jk.

*hope it runs soon mate.

[bennjamin]

there there ben............it'll run when it runs...............hahhaha. jk jk.

so are we going to settle this down the 1/4 one day or what mannnnn

ur stalling arent cha!!!..............hehhehe jk.

*hope it runs soon mate.
Husssshhhhh Dung ! Forever i am trying to beat u again tee hee ! :D


Anyway Dave , the prob is that as i mentioned earlier - i have tried my own dizzy + leads + battery on another Si , and that started perfect and ran fine. GRrr.

[tinkerbell]

want me to come have a look?

i am off til friday...

[wynode]

I've been with ben through this and here is my guess :)

Installed tranny, and tried starting........no luck. Possibly due to battery getting discharged over the 7 days or soo. Keep trying to start the car resulting in flooding and possible fouling of the plugs. Try a working battery + dizzy + leads...no luck....possibly due to the fouled plugs still.

I reckon ben, that you should try a fresh set of plugs (not sure if you have done this yet) with a working dizzy + leads and a freshly charged battery (let me know if you want to swing by and borrow my dizzy + leads / battery)

[Weq]

umm does it clutch start. were the plugs covered in fuel? if it turned over, the battery had enough charge to start the engine.

[jimmeh]

hey ben- i didnt bother read everyones posts so forgive me if this has been said.

u said there is spark coming from the dizzy. sometimes the spark isnt big/hot enough to ignite the fuel, just cos u see spark doesnt mean the car will start. so u might wana check the leads and the coil. only thing is once u use them you cant return them to the store.

[Breeze]

Are you sure you have spark?

Pull a plug wire, jam in an old plug and clamp it to the frame where you can see it while turning over the car, should be nice fat spark. You should be OK as you say the dizzy runs another car. If not OK there could be two probs, 1 ignitor stuffed, 2 coil stuffed, unlikely to be either if it was working fine before. It usually comes back to the obvious. Connections or earth leads, The plastic bit you had in your pic is one of the inserts that holds a two pin connector together. If you disconnect a fitting and then look in either side you will see the insert which aligns the pins and ensures the wires are not pulled out any. Probably from one of the solenoids (ie reverse), but worth unplugging each fitting you had to break to pull the box and making sure they all have those bits. The others look like the cv/axle seals.

Then check earth leads-
Make sure you put the earth strap back on the gearbox as this is the main earth. YOu can fry smaller earths by not having this strap on especially when turning the car over with major current draw. I doubt you will have pulled off the engine earth (chassis to top of rocker cover) but make sure that is there as well.

[karbonphyber]

okay okay to the person who needs help.

there is nothing wrong with your engine.

you just need to return your pistons 1 to Top Dead Centre.

remove your spark plug to check.

it's all about timing like they say.

don't touch anything else but do this TDC thing first. your car will start. if i'm not wrong. lol

cheers

[tinkerbell]

yeah, i fixed it today :D

it was a combo of a few little things that required substitution to start the car.

i looked for spark with the plug on the lead and earth touching the head, it was non-existant.

swaped on the spare dizzy (lucky!) and tried again - spark was there!

the plug order was the 2nd thing to sort, i thought they went one way (b series) but they went one position around (clockwise) from that... (so ben claimed to be 90% sure about)

the plugs were wet as, so we pulled em out, disabled the fuel pump and disconnected the coil and cycled it on the starter for about 15 secs to dry the cylinders out a bit,

then we put my iridiums in, then it coughed a bit so we were on the right track,

then we swapped my battery in and cranked it (much harder), it coughed better but wouldn't catch,

then we tried to start it with the throttle cracked a bit:

cough, cough, blert, blert blub blub blubbbb bllrrrrr, brooom broom!!!

we musta put a new hole in the ozone layer with the raw fuel that came out.

and ben just went for a drive, and the gearbox was good too!

thanks for the input guys!

[karbonphyber]

hhaah beautiful!!!!!! good to have you back on the roads mate

[Weq]

hmm dizzy and spark plug order.. i was thinking spark plug order but didnt know he had taken them off... good work fellas, i can imagine there being a good deal of smoke :P

[r|Ce_bOi]

tinkerbell strikes again...
good work bro... :)

[bennjamin]

tee hee the fairy god mother shows the way.

Yet again , Thanks a squillion Dave for the reassurance - we both learned a thing today tho :) ( silly d series dizzys :))


*NOTE* for everyone here....when leaving off your battery for a long time - keep it on charge !!!

[wynode]

AHh nice work...good to see all is well :)