Custom exhaust. Mandrel or press bent? Stock cat ok??

[Mikecivic78]

I'm looking into getting an affordable custom catback exhaust for my EM1.

My plan is just to do headers + catback + existing CAI + ECU + tune. Basic engine upgrade for my daily. I was actually been looking to get a DC2/GC8 instead, but haven't been able to find a clean enough one.

My question is, if I get an exhaust shop to do it as a custom exhaust- is it worth going mandrel bent over press bent? Or will the benefits be insignificant?

And will good second hand headers + stock cat be ok? I'm on a budget is all.

Regards,

Mike

[dougie_504]

Go mandrel-bent and use stainless-steel - the difference is worth it. With and EM1 I would not bother using a press-bent exhaust at all unless. Just go 2" or 2.25" mandrel/stainless.

Pre-fab (branded ones) is even better if you can afford it because they are made to fit 100% and have been tried/tested.

What ECU are you going to be using? This might not be necessary with just the simple bolt-on mods. A tunable VAFC would do the trick for I/H/E.

Are you going to address your header and cat? That would maximise the benefits of any cat-back upgrade and would be a better option than getting and ECU and tuning it up.

ECU and tune could cost you $1000+ alone.

[Mikecivic78]

Go mandrel-bent and use stainless-steel - the difference is worth it. With and EM1 I would not bother using a press-bent exhaust at all unless. Just go 2" or 2.25" mandrel/stainless.

Pre-fab (branded ones) is even better if you can afford it because they are made to fit 100% and have been tried/tested.

What ECU are you going to be using? This might not be necessary with just the simple bolt-on mods. A tunable VAFC would do the trick for I/H/E.

Are you going to address your header and cat? That would maximise the benefits of any cat-back upgrade and would be a better option than getting and ECU and tuning it up.

ECU and tune could cost you $1000+ alone.

Thanks for the reply Dougie. I was actually after a 2.25" mild steel catback. Don't feel the need or bling to go stainless. I'm not keen on the 700+ bucks that I would need for good headers/cat.

I know second hand ECU and tune will set me back roughly in the $1K mark. Na-118 has got a Microtech mt-8 for sale at a good price, I'm still considering it.

What's the price difference between VAFC and a proper aftermarket ECU/ECM? I'm assuming tuning will cost the same (approx 600 a pop).

[DLO01]

If the rest of your exhaust/headers are stock, I'd be inclined to just go 2.25 press bent, mild steel, cat back.

[Mikecivic78]

If the rest of your exhaust/headers are stock, I'd be inclined to just go 2.25 press bent, mild steel, cat back.

Thanks Deano. BTW, before I made this thread, I read in another thread that you do exhausts. Is that true? I saw it here: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?91035-Exhaust-shop-Brisbane&highlight=brisbane+exhaust

Thanks,

Mike

[Samm928]

What's the price difference between VAFC and a proper aftermarket ECU/ECM? I'm assuming tuning will cost the same (approx 600 a pop).


tunes for vafc = $150-200
tunes for microtech,hondata,viper,haltech's etc = $450-700 depending if its running a base map in there or theres no map in there.

with a aftermarket standalone ecu you have more tuneability than just air/fuel mixing.

[dougie_504]

Thanks for the reply Dougie. I was actually after a 2.25" mild steel catback. Don't feel the need or bling to go stainless. I'm not keen on the 700+ bucks that I would need for good headers/cat.

I know second hand ECU and tune will set me back roughly in the $1K mark. Na-118 has got a Microtech mt-8 for sale at a good price, I'm still considering it.

What's the price difference between VAFC and a proper aftermarket ECU/ECM? I'm assuming tuning will cost the same (approx 600 a pop).


Stainless steel is also stronger and less susceptible to weathering and damage from ongoing use, otherwise you're right if it's something you can live with it'll save you $150 +/- on the total price but for me personally I think it's not much extra for the quality of product you'll end up with. I feel the same way about mandrel-bends.

I guess the point I make with regards to the ECU is also out of personal preference - I don't consider an ECU it to be as necessary as a header+cat combo because the extra KW you get out of an ECU+tune might not be that much more than you'd get from a header+cat (considering the parts you have in your build for the ECU tunability).
From what I understand tuning costs $800 +/- around where I live (at a reputable tuner), but I think tuning with something like a VAFC (which will do a good job with simple bolt-on mods) is less complicated and cheaper than tuning with an ECU (which is generally used when tuning aftermarket camshaft timing intervals etc).
I wouldn't do an ECU tune unless I was modifying engine internals. I'd probably end up just resetting my stock ECU or using a VAFC for an extra few KW.
But ultimately I'm no professional on tuning so it might be best to consult somebody like DRHONDA or TODA_AU on this.


Maybe get some quotes on tuning the ECU that you're interested in (as different tuners only tune certain ECU's) and compare those prices to that of tuning a VAFC. Might be the same or might be different, but ask a tuner what they recommend for your budget (either ECU+tune or header+cat+VAFC+tune).

Something like a second hand XForce header will set you back like $250, or $400 new. Cat could be anywhere from $150-280 depending on new/brand etc.

[dougie_504]

tunes for vafc = $150-200
tunes for microtech,hondata,viper,haltech's etc = $450-700 depending if its running a base map in there or theres no map in there.

with a aftermarket standalone ecu you have more tuneability than just air/fuel mixing.


Hey Sam. Thanks for the previous deal, head build will be done in a couple of weeks I'll show you some pics and figures when it's done :).

It sounds like our OP's budget is probably going to be around the $1500 mark. Having built your B18C previously what would you recommend?

[Mikecivic78]

You're right Dougie. Budget is 1500 buck tops.

I'm open to all suggestions.

I'm starting to think maybe get headers instead of cat back now. Maybe that would give me more bang for my buck with tune. Still, I would have to source some good condition second-hand quality headers, it would be harder than getting a custom cat back done.

[dougie_504]

You're right Dougie. Budget is 1500 buck tops.

I'm open to all suggestions.

I'm starting to think maybe get headers instead of cat back now. Maybe that would give me more bang for my buck with tune. Still, I would have to source some good condition second-hand quality headers, it would be harder than getting a custom cat back done.

Getting a second hand header is not hard mate.

The cat-back will do more for your car on it's own than the header on it's own. If you get a good header the exhaust flow will just get restricted again at your stock cat and cat-back, making it nearly useless.

A cat-back will provide a power benefit, but to reap the full benefit of your exhaust you should consider the full system, header+cat+cat-back.


I think it's possible for you to find a good second hand setup and maybe tune it up with a VAFC (which would suffice for your modifications) for your $1500 budget.

[mugen_ctr]

I think what many dont reliaze is that, just because turbo vehicles can get cat back, which can rep good power gains, can apply to N/a, which isnt always the case... If ur goin to get cat back, while ur at it, also get high flow cat and headers as it doesnt make much sense in N/a to just get a cat back an call it quits, unlike turbos, you require constant back pressure to keep a good power band through all the rev range

If u really wanted to, rather than getting fabricated, go for a prefab cat back, Vision R, X-force....

[Mikecivic78]

I think what many dont reliaze is that, just because turbo vehicles can get cat back, which can rep good power gains, can apply to N/a, which isnt always the case... If ur goin to get cat back, while ur at it, also get high flow cat and headers as it doesnt make much sense in N/a to just get a cat back an call it quits, unlike turbos, you require constant back pressure to keep a good power band through all the rev range

If u really wanted to, rather than getting fabricated, go for a prefab cat back, Vision R, X-force....

i think ur right, i should probably get a full exhaust, The more I look into it, the more apparent that is.

I'm just on a tight budget is all.

[dougie_504]

I just saw a second hand XForce header for sale for $300. Yeah it's in Perth, but that's just an example mate.

Then get yourself a cat for $150-250 and a mandrel bent exhaust and I reckon you'll still have $300-400 left. You can try to squeeze in a VAFC + tune or something because they're cheaper than ECU/ECU tuning and will be sufficient.

[mugen_ctr]

I just saw a second hand XForce header for sale for $300. Yeah it's in Perth, but that's just an example mate.

Then get yourself a cat for $150-250 and a mandrel bent exhaust and I reckon you'll still have $300-400 left. You can try to squeeze in a VAFC + tune or something because they're cheaper than ECU/ECU tuning and will be sufficient.

Win win situation there.... If goin for custom made mandrel bent, dont just go to a random exhaust place, go to one where they have actually had exp in honda's, and proven results, just because the shop may say its just a exhaust, thats the differance between them and a well rep shop, that can knock up a well made system, with proper welding, resonator used, an muffler than over a poorly made system that just looks good

[Mikecivic78]

Still considering how to spend my cash. Maybe increase my budget to 1800, include second hand headers, but I'd have to keep a stock cat.
I couldn't find the xforce for 300 in Perth DOUGIE, where did u find it?

[dougie_504]

HERE. (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?138971-2x-xforce-headers-for-b16-and-b18-and-civic-fd-king-springs-35mm-drop)

But that's not really a great deal. They should be $250 max, especially when you can get them HERE (http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?64470-RaceNation-XFORCE-4-2-1-HEADERS-TWINLOOP-MUFFLERS-HIGH-FLOW-CATS-CATBACK-HOTDOG) for $409 shipped to your door, brand spanking.

XForce are a good brand, great value for their donga.


Even if you buy them new I still think you could get your header, cat, cat-back, VAFC and tune done for $1500, but if you bump it up to $1800 you'll have no worries.

[Mikecivic78]

I agree dougie, but maybe I can get a hondata cheap from a mate, the tuning options are much better than vafc IMO.

[eeKayFouR]

i dont think the ecu/tune is completely necessary at this stage, its just a b16 with ihe afterall. maybe get the full system first, headers/cat/cat-back, get some quality shit yo~ makes a world of difference in both power and longevity. then later on down the track you can look into vafc/ecu/tuning! :D

[mugen_ctr]

vafc is more so a band aid solution, so really a piggy back ecu or chip would be my pick, or if u had the money to play, a full ecu replacement, such as honda S300 or Apexi Power fc

[dougie_504]

I agree dougie, but maybe I can get a hondata cheap from a mate, the tuning options are much better than vafc IMO.


What Hondata and how cheap? S100, S200 or S300?

Also, what extra tuning options available in the Hondata, but not the VAFC, are you interested in?

My Hondata S300 is going to set me back about $1550 new with some extra setup equipment ($150), then I need a new wiring hardness ($220), new injectors ($50-100), new dizzy ($280) and tuning ($800) to convert from OBD0 to OBD1.
So I'm looking at about $3000. I'm using an S300 because I'll have aftermarket cam shafts, adjustable cam gears, a port job on my intake/exhaust, 3-angle grind, re-welded combustion chambers, an ITR throttle body & intake manifold, new valves, new springs, new retainers, new cold air intake, header, cat and cat-back.


If you choose to go ECU that's fine mate, it's your car. I'm just trying to get you to think about what you're doing because I want you to get the best result for your money, and I truly believe an ECU is a waste of money if you only have an intake and cat-back. More power to be had in the header/cat. If you can get a 'cheap hondata' (chip or full ECU?) then go for it, but the purchase and tuning will surely still set you back $600-$900.



i dont think the ecu/tune is completely necessary at this stage, its just a b16 with ihe afterall. maybe get the full system first, headers/cat/cat-back, get some quality shit yo~ makes a world of difference in both power and longevity. then later on down the track you can look into vafc/ecu/tuning! :D

Thanks for understanding my reasoning.



vafc is more so a band aid solution, so really a piggy back ecu or chip would be my pick, or if u had the money to play, a full ecu replacement, such as honda S300 or Apexi Power fc

If the VAFC is a 'bandaid' then what's a Hondata? Robotic open heart surgery? Would you do robotic open heart surgery for a person who experiences some mild hypertension? No...lol

[mugen_ctr]

Just a quick one, if Vafc was "robotic" lol, i think you would fine many running them, but as iev found out from various ppl here an there, from nissans to hondas, they all pretty much say the same thing, not worth the penny an save up more for a proper ecu/chip.... ofcourse whos to way that vafc is bad thing, but the tuning availability of it isnt worth it if you plan on goin bigger later on.... hence why i said band aid solution

What about the SAFC-II? might be worth looking at it as well

[dougie_504]

I didn't say it was 'Robotic'. I said that Hondata should be considered 'Robotic open heart surgery' by comparison to the VAFC if you consider the VAFC to be a 'Bandaid'.

[mugen_ctr]

my bad, no sleep deprives you from alot, hahahahaha, but yea ur rite lol