speaker recommendation running off HU amp

[Shimian]

Super noob at car audio department.

Looking to use HU amp and NOT an external amp. The HU has a "Built in 50W x 4 Channel High-Power MOSFET Amplifier"

Will something like the Focal 165A1 run well off this HU amp?
The speaker specs shows 'Nominal power=60W'. Does this mean the speakers will be underpowered? Does this also mean my sound will be low and similar to stock?
I dont plan on cranking it up on full blast but at a reasonable volume and maybe occasionally louder without any rattling or distortion.
Is it true that i need an external amp to run components/splits?

any help is appreciated.
thanks

[blabla]

Hey mate I'm getting hooked up with some Phillips stuff for cheap check it out

[2MPRS]

most headunits will put out like 20watt rms if ur lucky. u will be underpowering them and not reaching the full potential out of the speakers. yes they will be louder then stock but not by much only difference will be that u will get more clarity out of the focals compared to stock

[ICACHA]

if you're happy with the level from a head unit then get a pair of speakers that you like the sound of. don't just listen to them for 2 minutes, make sure you have a good listen to them as you're the one who will have to listen to them for a long time or atleast until you get sick of them. when auditioning to speakers in a store, make sure you listen to them off a head unit and not through an amp.

[Shimian]

Thanks for the response guys.
These are the specs for the potential HU i want to get

HU
Max power output = 50w x 4
continuous power output = 22w x 4 (50hz to 15000 hz 5% tHD 4ohm load both channels driven)
load impedance = 4ohm (4ohm to 8ohm (2ohm for 1 ch) allowable)
preout max output level = 4V

Speaker
Maximum power 120W
Nominal power 60W
Sensitivity (2.83 V/1m) 92dB
Frequency response (+/-3dB) 60Hz - 20kHz
Nom. impedance 4 ohms

Does this mean if i crank up my HU, it wont be able to power the speakers to normal ability? Just trying to get my head around the HU watts vs Speaker watts. Since its 22w continuous vs 60w normal?
I see that most external amps are 100w x 4 therefore it will power the speakers nicely since its between 60w to 120w?

Thanks again

[2MPRS]

with an amp it will sound alotttttt nicer but if u only listen to it at normal volume ur not gonna notice much diff. running off the hu will only give u a true 22watts per channel so u will wont be running them at there full potential saying that there is no harm in underpowering if done correctly

[Shimian]

ahh everyone is pointing towards an amp for full potential :(
I am trying to avoid external amps and subs with decent speakers that can produce good sounds/bass. I might take a punt and get those speakers. If they sound good to me, ill leave it. Otherwise, i have to work my way towards an amp/sub. Fingerscrossed it will be atleast twice as good as stock

[2MPRS]

trust me it will be alot better then stock speakers dont worry to much lol

[Shimian]

thanks for all your help
yea im trying not to worry too much but only making sure im not spending the extra $500 on speakers for no reason. If im only going to get 10-15% better sound quality than stock, i may just keep my stock. Its the RMS/Watts thats confusing me where HU amp seems to be not enough to even power the normal potential of any speakers :(

[blabla]

http://www.philipscaraudio.co.nz/csp6910.html

CSP6910 $85.00,CSP650 $155.00 splits plus 6x9's

Fairfield Car Audio

[specialst]

if ur not going to get an amp then pretty much everything will sound the same.
IMHO: no amp - buy anything in budget. honestly you wont notice THAT much of a difference but after market speakers will definitely sound better then stock.
mild amp - alpine type s

[Shimian]

yea i think i may have to lean towards an external amp as things im reading from other forums say the HU 50x4 is just not good enough. Hopefully i can avoid getting a sub with some decent speakers producing the same/similar effect.

[2MPRS]

if your planing on getting an amp think about getting splits as ull get way better bass out of them compared to coaxials

[specialst]

sounds to me like ur on a budget.
u dont wanna rumble the entire street
u just want nice sound in cabin.

yes? id say on a budget:

head unit: as long as you like the look of it. the amp will take care of "amp'ing" *no way*!
speakers: find a pair of speakers u like. look at the specs. as a rule of thumb - RMS is half peak power - most of the time peak power is a lie.
amp: get a cheap branded amp eg. sony xplod: match the speaker rms rating with speaker's. if its not exact and amp>speakers simply dont be stupid by turn it up full blast.
wiring kit: pick one up off ryda for $20 http://www.ryda.com.au/Aerpro-BSX008-450W-Amp-Power-Wiring-Kit-8GA-p/bsx008.htm
speaker cable: pick some of the cheap stuff up off ryda - depends what length u need 18GA is more then sufficient
misc: terminals from supercheap, heat shrink off ebay, solder and iron from a mate

have fun wiring it all up.

[Shimian]

Thanks for the info specialst.
I prefer not to spend too much on audio. Upgrading due to stock HU not working and i bought a double din panel like 2 years ago sitting on my shelf atm.
My main concern is not to amp and sub cos of boot space and agree, dont really want to spend 1k in this area plus extra for making it look clean. I guess i will start off with a basic double din, front components and rear speakers. If it sounds atleast twice as good as stock, i will leave it as it is.

[Philip Lee]

if i'm in your shoe, i'd get the double din in, buy a good buy of splits for the front and get a small amp under the seat to run the split.

keep your stock speakers for the rear and only use them when there are people sitting at the back. otherwise fade all your sound towards the front.

you don't need surround sound in your car as you are not watching a movie.

[arverson]

good choice on amping speakers

no speakers are gonna match the output & efficiency of a sub, so dont expect em to play as low or as loud as one..

focus on the install of the fronts with:
1. a firm & solid mdf spacer/baffle, painted (to seal out water)
2. seal all service-holes & airleaks in the doors and around the speaker
3. grease'n'wax to remove dirt & grime
4. dynaMAT/roadkill. deaden the tinny doors (outside & inner metal sections). if your door trims are flimsy, then maybe some on them if need be
5. foam, underfelt, dynaPAD or some other similiar material to get rid of rattles (if any) & reduce road noise
6. dynaxorb/focal plain chant/other diffusers directly behind the speakers to stop backwaves

see how much installation work it needs for 'best potential'? thats just the mid-woofer installation in the front doors too.. havnt got onto about tweeter positioning/angling or tuning.. if you're even half-serious about achieving 'best potential' then i bet you'd like to see a specialist now and not a jb/strathy/autobarn..

if you can only afford to do the above with a HU & front components then so be it. do these first before worrying about rears.

IMO, with your budget of 1k, its better to spend a few hundred on front splits alone instead of halving it for fronts+rears.. at the very least, id break it like this: 300 HU, 300 splits, 300 2chan amp, 100 wiring.

where abouts in melbourne are ya from?

does the budget include installation?

[oh_lol]

You will never, ever get 'normal' speakers that can reproduce the frequencies that a subwoofer can make.

Not till someone is able to defy physics.

[Shimian]

good choice on amping speakers

no speakers are gonna match the output & efficiency of a sub, so dont expect em to play as low or as loud as one..

focus on the install of the fronts with:
1. a firm & solid mdf spacer/baffle, painted (to seal out water)
2. seal all service-holes & airleaks in the doors and around the speaker
3. grease'n'wax to remove dirt & grime
4. dynaMAT/roadkill. deaden the tinny doors (outside & inner metal sections). if your door trims are flimsy, then maybe some on them if need be
5. foam, underfelt, dynaPAD or some other similiar material to get rid of rattles (if any) & reduce road noise
6. dynaxorb/focal plain chant/other diffusers directly behind the speakers to stop backwaves

see how much installation work it needs for 'best potential'? thats just the mid-woofer installation in the front doors too.. havnt got onto about tweeter positioning/angling or tuning.. if you're even half-serious about achieving 'best potential' then i bet you'd like to see a specialist now and not a jb/strathy/autobarn..

if you can only afford to do the above with a HU & front components then so be it. do these first before worrying about rears.

IMO, with your budget of 1k, its better to spend a few hundred on front splits alone instead of halving it for fronts+rears.. at the very least, id break it like this: 300 HU, 300 splits, 300 2chan amp, 100 wiring.

where abouts in melbourne are ya from?

does the budget include installation?

Wow. Thats hardcore stuff. I dont think im going into that much effort. I like my audio but not that intense.
I was looking to spend about $500 on speakers - $100 wiring - didnt get quote for speaker install but about $100 for HU install.
Having some thoughts on a really cheap setup which includes amps and subs. So i will be looking away from alpine and focals :(
Will a cheap set up be twice as good as running good speakers only off the HU amp?

thanks

[ICACHA]

leave the oem stuff in there until it breaks. then look at changing it. if not into audio then get the factory unit repaired or find another from a wrecker. if the speakers are blown then look at wreckers or honda spares for replacements cause if your not going to spend money to do something properly you will have much better results with the factory gear left in the car.

[Shimian]

I have decided to install HU, components and rear first. See how it goes.
Doing some reading on basic amps. Out of these 2 amps, Pioneer GM-6400F and Alpine MRP-F300, which one would people choose? Specs looks quite similar and they are both the low end amps of each brand.
Do I have to personally go to a demo board to listen to them to tell the difference?

[ICACHA]

speakers or amps?

speakers yes, amps no.

you wont get to hear amps quite as well as you will sitting in your garage with the car NOT running listening to music.
only at midnight do you really hear the benifit of superb amplifiers compared to cheap ones as thats when its most quiet with almost no ambient noise to take away from what youre listening to. that is unless you live bang smack in the middle of a city and its never quiet. no point me talking about something when you need to hear with your own ears to justify why more expensive amps are better.

speakers on the other hand, if you can get past the babbling salesman trying to move his favourite product where he/she works and really listen to the differences in speakers. not every speaker sounds the same or does the job as well as the next. if you really want to be anal i suggest you get a professional recording of a family member (like mum for example) and take that into the store/s to listen to speakers. which ever set of speakers comes close to sounding like mum is the ones you want to look at. but a word of warning, natural does sound boring hense why there are so many people falling asleep in school/tafe/uni and what one knows is good another will tweak the crap out of it with bass and treble to taste.

music is like food, you either like it or dont. the only difference is we eat with our eyes not with our mouth.
music should be taken in with the ears not with the eyes and not to forget PROPER F@%KING MUSIC! :)

[Shimian]

lol ICACHA. Like your example. My mum will scream at me saying why are you wasting so much money. :)
I try to do my own readings but at the same time listen to what the salesperson tells me. But in my situation, i only want a basic amp so comparing the low end amps from pioneer and alpine, both looks quite the same. 2/3 sales people i have spoken to recommends the pioneer. So this is the confusing part. Do i need to listen to those amps in person with the speakers i want (generally at JB stores) to see which one is better for me? I understand i need to take into consideration the environment etc but im kinda confused with how to choose an amp.
I dont want some random crap one, but i dont want something over the top

[specialst]

hey dude. dont worry about baffles or sound deadening or anything like that - its all pretty crap unless u have spent 1k on ur system. not to mention how expensive that shiz is - you can buy better speakers lol.

also Alpine all the way *hands down* - go into JB HiFi and have a listen for yourself if needed.

if your on a budget - dont get splits... again no point unless u have spent money on premium hardware, u know what i mean. IMHO you wont notice a difference whilst driving. that just my opinion.

also just to highlight the point , fyi - did you know Alpine Type S Splits run on an internal crossover - what this means is the tweeter is simply placed outside the main body without a separate crossover. in other words, identical to the 'inferior' coaxial model.. sorry to break the news to you all who bought type s splits =).

install the deck, amp, speakers and you will do just fine i promise.

rear speakers will be the least of your concern to be honest as you wont hear them. you will only be hearing the front speakers for the front stage. if u want a bit more bass through out the car, throw in a cheap pair of 6x9's boxed up in the boot and turn on the amplifiers low pass. this will give you that little bit more doof. (and i mean just a little bit more)

[Shimian]

thanks specialst.

So when you mentioned the Type S splits being internal crossover, is this the passive vs active crossover? What should I NOT be getting when looking at splits. I will definitely go splits but something midrange. Amp i will get as i have heard sound with no amp and its kinda crap. Just need to choose the right one.

[ICACHA]

dont worry about baffles or sound deadening or anything like that - its all pretty crap unless u have spent 1k on ur system. not to mention how expensive that shiz is - you can buy better speakers lol.

really? can you show us your evidence of it not being benifitial if you dont spend $1000 on your system? i know hands down you really got no idea what you said and why you said it and there are many in the know who will back me in saying even the smallest bit of deadening actually improves sound. the speakers are only as good as the installer installing them.

we have a saying in the industry. a cheap pair of speakers installed properly will always out-perform an expensive set of speakers incorrectly installed.

to the OP, all you will get at JB is the salesmans favourite. thats what they will push all day everyday. they honestly have no idea with proper car audio or they would be working for a specialist. you will get more sense from your corner hooker than a salesman at JB.

[ICACHA]

Go see a real specialist store and save yourself the head ache. http://www.phattaudio.com.au/

[arverson]

Wow. Thats hardcore stuff. I dont think im going into that much effort. I like my audio but not that intense.
I was looking to spend about $500 on speakers - $100 wiring - didnt get quote for speaker install but about $100 for HU install.
Having some thoughts on a really cheap setup which includes amps and subs. So i will be looking away from alpine and focals :(
Will a cheap set up be twice as good as running good speakers only off the HU amp?

thanks

hah thats not hardcore or intense stuff. all that is basic and should be done with EVERY install, sadly & unfortunately too many people spend a bit on the speakers and nowhere near as much (if at all) on the install.

$500 speakers? dont bother if you dont plan on giving em a proper install. seems like a waste of money if you did. you'd be better off going to a wreckers and replacing with another pair of stocks as ichaca said, or spending $100ish on entry-level coaxils. as a salesperson, id push you all day long to spend that $500.. as a person giving an unbiased opinion & honest sound advice, i say dont.

'really cheap setup' and 'twice as good' dont mix.. a cheap setup will always have a compromise somewhere..

you went with a HU, components & rears.. good to know you took my earlier advice about going HU, front components & focus on the install..

either of those 2 entry-level amps you mentioned will do. i would even suggest get a more powerful & better 2chan amp, theres no need to amp the rears..

+1 for visiting phatt. give frankston car audio a visit too. http://www.frankstoncaraudio.com.au/ id recommend the crescendo 3's or 5's everytime over alpine type-s or type-r's, but still have a listen to every speaker within your budget that both stores have.

[Shimian]

cool. Thanks for the info.

[specialst]

alpine hands down for everything audio for me including amps. pioneer to a great job as well.

look peeeps he is after a budget install. when u bring sound deadening into it, its not a budget job anymore. everyone to their own opinion - thats what he asked for. hearing a car with sound deadening is definitely worth the experience i dont deny it but he is on a budget. i think your own audio gear sounds great cos you got it just the way you like it =)

i promise you shimian that simply bringing an amp into your setup will impress you. it will sound significantly better then stock and you will be happy with that outcome. noone should debate that. as for sound deadening... up to you man if u wanna spend the extra money.

[Shimian]

Thanks specialst. After all the info/opinions/comments from everyone including yourself, i will get an amp. I guess it will be pointless for me to get components if they are not running at its best or atleast above normal. I think i may go down the path of pioneer for HU and amp as they are cheaper but not the crap end of the scale. As for speakers, still looking into it but maybe JL audios as they sound quite good? Still unsure :(. Sub i will also decide later but i may get the installers to pull the cables down to the back when they install my amp so i can plug and play myself later.
Sound deadening will be down the track or maybe not at all as i see this as the hardcore end of audio (IMO).

[ICACHA]

do it once, do it right. this also includes doing deadening when installing speakers.

if it's a budget you're worried about then leave the stock speakers in there.

without deadening the stock speakers will sound much better than anything you put in after market.

you don't have to take my advice i've only been in the game for 18yrs. you're better off listening to the people who read forums and gather their expertise from theory without practical experience.

you're money, not mine...

[arverson]

last time im gonna bother with this thread..

highly suggest you pop into frankston car audio and check out the crescendo range (specifically the 3 or 5 based on your budget). a number of top MEASQ competitors use crescendo drivers and have had great success with em. sure you might not be a audiophile or ever plan to compete in sound quality competitions.. but if they fit your budget & have had proven success, why not go for em instead of the mainstream entry-level alpine, jl or pioneers right?

if you dont like their sound then both phatt and frankston have a range of other brands for you to listen/audition.

dunno bout you but id much rather listen to $3-400 splits installed well than $150ish front cheapies & $150ish rear cheapies both given no install treatment.. like ichaca said tho, your money..

[Shimian]

thanks everyone. really appreciate your comments/inputs. i will definitely get some good splits. I will try to visit frankston and phatt during the weekend.