Vtec Controller

[CAT_SPEW]

The engine that I will hopefully be buying has a mugen ECU which cuts in Vtec at 6000RPM wich is way too late. So I have been told that I should buy a Vtec controller.
Seeing as this is a Honda site I assume that some of you will have these in your car?
If so how much do they cost? What should I buy? How much can you adjust when Vtec cuts in? easy to install?

I have seen only Apexi ones on videos I have seen, but I'm not sure if these are Vtec controllers or air/fuel controllers? They are the ones with the blue sreens.

Thnx.

[vti-2]

The engine that I will hopefully be buying has a mugen ECU which cuts in Vtec at 6000RPM wich is way too late.

What engine you getting? And why is that late for VTEC cut-over? That's when they are optimally designed to kick in. Adjusting that to a lower cut-over (in most cases) WON'T give you better response or more performance.

Don't tell me you want it so the VTEC sound kicks in earlier....


p.s. I'll move this to Technical for you as you will get better replies there. :thumbsup:

[A'PEXi]

i've answered your question on tgz.dartbored.com - i hope it helps ;)

[CAT_SPEW]

What engine you getting? And why is that late for VTEC cut-over? That's when they are optimally designed to kick in. Adjusting that to a lower cut-over (in most cases) WON'T give you better response or more performance.

Don't tell me you want it so the VTEC sound kicks in earlier....


p.s. I'll move this to Technical for you as you will get better replies there.

I was told by the seller that it is too high... It is a B16A out of an SiR Civic.
Na it has nothing to do with me wanting the sound earlier, it's just that I also thought that was too high..

[CAT_SPEW]

Thanks for that Apexi:)

[Setanta]

The Mugen ECU is designed to go with Mugen R2 or R3 cams. That's why the revs are set high. However, unless you can get a B16A to rev higher than it's 8200 redline, you are asking for trouble, and to do that is expensive (SiR rods will not take 9000rpm+ reliably for a start). You also need the 4-1 header setup to help maintain peak airflow through the engine.

But most importantly, if you don't do all that, you will still redline at 8200 but your powerband will be limited dramatically.

Using a VTEC controller to adjust a aftermarket ECU... heheheh - I'm trying not to laugh too hard at that one :P

Do it properly, don't just buy on name brands, do your research and build the motor properly. EG: SiR motor stock: a chipped Mugen ECU is pointless - you can't even tune for a little more power. Get a programmable ECU and you will do infinitely better - or stick with the stock ECU, it works fine until you go past the mild stage of modding - if you are going "wild" then you should have got a B18 or a CRVTEC in the first place :roll:

[CAT_SPEW]

The Mugen ECU is designed to go with Mugen R2 or R3 cams. That's why the revs are set high. However, unless you can get a B16A to rev higher than it's 8200 redline, you are asking for trouble, and to do that is expensive (SiR rods will not take 9000rpm+ reliably for a start). You also need the 4-1 header setup to help maintain peak airflow through the engine.

But most importantly, if you don't do all that, you will still redline at 8200 but your powerband will be limited dramatically.

Using a VTEC controller to adjust a aftermarket ECU... heheheh - I'm trying not to laugh too hard at that one

Do it properly, don't just buy on name brands, do your research and build the motor properly. EG: SiR motor stock: a chipped Mugen ECU is pointless - you can't even tune for a little more power. Get a programmable ECU and you will do infinitely better - or stick with the stock ECU, it works fine until you go past the mild stage of modding - if you are going "wild" then you should have got a B18 or a CRVTEC in the first place

Yeh you got alot of good points. I don't know why he put that ECU in, but I'm sure he had a good reason for it. It's got B16A2 cams in it, type R extracters, short shift kit, LSD, and a few other things so it's only mildy modded ATM. i don't plan on doing TOO much to it. I will probably be going for a turbo setup a little later on.
The reason I chose this engine was because of the ease of the swap. My dad and I have not done anything like this before and I wanted to make it as easy as possible. And their seems to be alot of nfo and parts for the B16A engines.
I will probably still get a vtec controller as 6000RPM is too I reckon. I don't want to have to rev the crap out of the engine just to get to vtec power, so I'm tryng to ease the stress ;)

But I still haven't even got it yet so I'm not making any moves until then ;)

Thnx.

[Setanta]

Yeh you got alot of good points. I don't know why he put that ECU in, but I'm sure he had a good reason for it. It's got B16A2 cams in it, type R extracters, short shift kit, LSD, and a few other things so it's only mildy modded ATM. i don't plan on doing TOO much to it. I will probably be going for a turbo setup a little later on.


You are being taken for a ride. B16A2 cams are from an EG SiR motor and the engine management is OBD1 not OBD"0" like a EFs is. That is, if he got the engine from an EG (and he would have needed the EG gearbox as a B16A1 has a cable tranny) then it came with those cams AND a short shifter (stock on all SiRs from the EF onwards) AND they came with an optional LSD.

So basically bought all of those and then whacked on a header which will not clear an EF bay and has issues with an EG engine bay. That is, JDM ITR header is 4-1 2top, 2 bottom - go work out what your clearance to the ground is. :? Look at ALLMTR's drag car. His headers sit higher than ITR ones do and his car is barely lowered compared to street cars - but he is quick to point out that clearance is an issue.

The Mugen ECU if it IS a mugen ECU and not a stickered stock ECU will make no difference really as the JDM B16A2 cams produce 10bhp more than the B16A1 cams but they are very peaky. An EF will actually outrun a EG stock for stock as it runs through the gears quicker (ratios are similar but peak horsepower isnt).

If yo uare turboing, the B16A is the wrong move, a B18C or an B20 will bolt in as easily using all the stock parts. The B16A is not as good a motor as a B18C and you will not be happy with the result. I know, I own one and hate getting owned by 'tegs which are heavier yet run the B18C.

Just because the guy slapped together a motor - it doesn't make it great. Think about WHY he is selling it - not his reasons, but why he isn't sticking with it. Then do it properly, get the B16A2 front cut which has your dash, all your ancilleries etc and have a turnkey motor which you know is going to be reliable. Or better yet, get a CRV motor in there which produces 160bhp stock with no VTEC. Later you can get a B16A head, upgrade rods and you will be fast and reliable. Or go with a VTiR 'teg cut.

I ain't pising on your parade - but it really sounds like you should be very careful with this buy.

[CAT_SPEW]

Thanks alot for the advice man, it 's really made me think about it all. I'm not going to try and be a mad race car driver on the road, I jsut wanted a bit more power without spending too much.
The reason he is selling it is because he is getting a Type R engine put in, or so he said.
If he does not end up wanting to sell anymore than I will be on the lookout for a wider variety of engines like the B18C etc. It's just that there doesn't seem to be many around lately and those that are, are too expensive for me..
But I'll keep looking ;)

Thnx, Matt.

[Havok]

[quote=CAT_SPEW]


If yo uare turboing, the B16A is the wrong move, a B18C or an B20 will bolt in as easily using all the stock parts. The B16A is not as good a motor as a B18C and you will not be happy with the result. I know, I own one and hate getting owned by 'tegs which are heavier yet run the B18C.


I agree with most of what Setanta says except this..from old posts its evident hes on a fairly tight budget and as we all know b18c's arent really EASY to find nor cheap..I reckon go with the b16a - like u said ure not out there to be the quickest car on the road. Also i dont agree with the "if ure going to turbo the b16a its the wrong move" - unless he wants to build some form of drag car whats the point of paying an extra 2k for a b18c..he could just use that towards his turbo setup. Also its not like if he wanted to build a extremely quick he couldnt attain it with the b16a as evident from EXQZIT doing a flat 11 and a few other b16as in the 11s in OZ. I do definately agree that the b18c would be a better platform but if on a budget i dont see why hed be completely disappointed with a b16a - not to mention he hasnt got his Ps yet.

[vti-2]

If yo uare turboing, the B16A is the wrong move, a B18C or an B20 will bolt in as easily using all the stock parts. The B16A is not as good a motor as a B18C and you will not be happy with the result. I know, I own one and hate getting owned by 'tegs which are heavier yet run the B18C.

Hmmm, i don't agree with that comment either. I think the B16A is a great engine to build up, regardless of hp. B18C's have the extra power/torque advantage but what's wrong with a built B16A? ;) There are quite a few boosted B16A's in Australia, some in the Top 10 fastest FWD category. The B16A is also heaps of fun in low boost applications as well so i don't see a problem with young CAT_SPEW going for one of these.

[Setanta]

I just believe the B20 is a better starting point without going to boost. To work a B16A costs a fortune - done properly. A B20 puts out the same power as a B16 but is not as peaky - then you can do either the turbo or CRVTEC - the latter would be cheaper based on what ALLMTR did with his engine.

B18 compared to B16 in stock trim - a VTiR 'teg will chew a VTiR Civic with both stock engines and you do have a better performance starting point.

Just my opinion, but I have driven a B16 powered Civic, VTiR 'teg and a DC2 and the engine in the latter two are better IMO. Difficult to find maybe, but the prices are dropping and more are coming in through wreckers.

[vti-2]

If we leave boost out of this and are talking about stock engines then obviously the B18C is a better option than the B16A. CAT_SPEW said that he is looking at boosting further down the track and if that is the case, i'd save money now and just stick with the B16A. He is young and inexperienced on the road (wasn't this discussed in another thread? :P) and a B16A would be more than enough power and heaps of fun until he is ready to boost it.

I'm just offering an insight into the other option which is to stick with the B16A option and do work to it later.

B18C would be awesome, i love the power and torque of mine compared to the B16A but it may not be feasible for CAT_SPEW's needs and future applications. ;)

Just my 2c

[CAT_SPEW]

I will probably end up going with the B16 as like you have said, I am young and in-experienced on the road. And I don't really want anything that puts out too much power for me to handle. Especially when I'm still on my L's ;)
When I get more experienced I will either sell the car, or turbo it which I reckon will be enough for a daily driver. If later on after that I would like some more power/torque I will probably take on a new project or build up more on the civic I have now.
B16 will be the engine for me I think. But thanks to all of you for helpin me out.
It is a hard choice and I want to get it right the first time round ;)

I'll let everyone know how it's going when I get hold of the enigne and stick it in.
Thnx, Matt.

[vti-2]

We kinda got sidetracked there Matt... :P

Anyway, if you really want the VTEC controller go for it! The only thing is it isn't the best in terms of a control unit (from an ECU point of view) in that it doesn't offer a lot of other things a proper aftermarket ECU offers. But you can do some 'tuning' to an extent.

[CAT_SPEW]

We kinda got sidetracked there Matt... :P

Anyway, if you really want the VTEC controller go for it! The only thing is it isn't the best in terms of a control unit (from an ECU point of view) in that it doesn't offer a lot of other things a proper aftermarket ECU offers. But you can do some 'tuning' to an extent.

Well the only reason I was gonna buy one was to chanbge the cut-in of Vtec. But is there something else I can buy which will do this AND other tuning stuff? Or would Ihave to get a new aftermarket ECU?

[Setanta]

VAFC - but if the ECU you have is self-adjusting like the original ECU is then you will have it in and out of a tuning shop forever as the ECU adjusts to the Air/Fuel ratio set by the VAFC. What you want is a good programmable ECU if you don't go down the track of an original one.

[CAT_SPEW]

Well I'll try and get the stock ECU from him and go from there.
Thanks ;)

[Setanta]

Congrats on the L's.

Make sure you know which engine it is - an A1 or an A2 as the ECUs are different

[CAT_SPEW]

Hehe thanks man, first go ;) I got one wrong in the first and one in the second so I'm lucky.
By A1 and A2, that's just b16a1 and b16a2 right?
How do I find out what the SiR engine is, will it just be printed on the engine or somthing?

[Setanta]

The B16A (1) never existed. The XSi block number will start B16A and then start their series as a 1 million number, while the EF Blocks start B16A and then start as a 5 million number. The EG SiR blocks start with B16A2.

Look down under the distributor and you'll see the engine number.

[CAT_SPEW]

Okai cool thanks :)

[typer636]

I am not the experienced tuner that some of you guys are buy here is my humble understanding of the purpose of VTEC.

I don't belive that VTEC is adjustable to give more power in the same way that boost is from a turbo, more it is to facilitate the power that the engine is capable of making.

Most of the Honda engines that make good power do it by revving hard. This is where VTECs true purpose lies. VTEC is about varyig the internal geometry of the engine to allow the airflow required for a high revving engine to breathe and therfore produce more power.

I dont think that lowering the RPM where youre VTEC kicks in will develop more power by itself, rather you should consider doing things to your'e engine that will subsequently require you to consider altering youre VTEC tuning.

Is there a spell checker here ?

[BLKCRX]

Vtec is no more than Honda’s way of making a car emissions friendly. If vtec made power why hav’t they used vtec in any none production race engine EVER >? Because you don’t need vtec to make power !!! Anyway that’s my latest theory.

Tuning a vtec crossover point, is’t as simple as turning it on / off you need correct fuelling and ignition timing when changing the cross over point, you also need to tune not only full throttle change over points but part throttle also, not 2 mention taking into consideration engine load. Changing the crossover point on a mugen ecu is highly stupid. Having said that there no way of telling where you need to set the cross over point, and theres no way you could tune it either.

Changing cross over points varies to car to car, some car’s benefit by decreasing the cross over point, some benefit by increasing it, only a experience dyno tuner used to the Honda engine will know the optimal place where to set it, and even then he won’t know until on the dyno, but unless your changing other factors it’s a pointless change.

Regards James

[Setanta]

Cliff notes on James' post: Honda-engineer san got it right the first time, don't **** with it ;)

[Civic Type R]

James. when will you be seting up HonData over here in Perth?
I have a car you can test dummy :)