Brian Crower Stage 2 cams

[Louis - Type S]

Hi people

Just wanted to know if anyone has used Brian crower stage 2 cams for a b18cr. Are they comparable to a buddy club spec 3+, skunk pro 1 or any off the like.

And yes I have done a search but nothing comes up, even on the US forums.

Any info would be greatly appreciated

[l__i__l]

In a dc5 i never liked them the amount i lost in the low-mid range was not worth the extra ponies at the top

switched to ips and then never looked back

[Louis - Type S]

thanks for the input but i need info for a b18cr. first post now edited.

cheers anyway

[Alexplicit]

im pretty sure it was the brian crower cams that had the tendency to snap in half.

[TODA AU]

They can be made to work well, we got 2nd place in the 09 U2L IPRA championship with a budget engine using Brian Crower cams.
Though I don't rate them as being as good as our cams, I will say they are better than the 2 other brands mentioned.
Also, we used stage 3's... The actual setup (cam timimng) was key to getting good power out of them, but that can really be said for most cams in built engines.
Reliability/product durability wasn't an issue as that engine has now completed it's 2nd full season of racing without a pull down or failure.
For what it's worth, camshafts breaking is generally caused by installation error or component incompatibility (pulley bolt)
If the cams are used together with the springs etc recomended by the cam manufacturer, it's unlikley you'll have an issue.
When you try & 2nd guess this & use alternative parts you start having issues.

[Louis - Type S]

They can be made to work well, we got 2nd place in the 09 U2L IPRA championship with a budget engine using Brian Crower cams.
Though I don't rate them as being as good as our cams, I will say they are better than the 2 other brands mentioned.
Also, we used stage 3's... The actual setup (cam timimng) was key to getting good power out of them, but that can really be said for most cams in built engines.
Reliability/product durability wasn't an issue as that engine has now completed it's 2nd full season of racing without a pull down or failure.
For what it's worth, camshafts breaking is generally caused by installation error or component incompatibility (pulley bolt)
If the cams are used together with the springs etc recomended by the cam manufacturer, it's unlikley you'll have an issue.
When you try & 2nd guess this & use alternative parts you start having issues.

After all tuning was done did the cams have a rough idle? Would you recommend these cams for a daily/track car? Was the power more mid range or top end
Would the stage 3 Brian crower cams be comparable to a buddyclub spec 4.

Please note this build will be for the head only, bottom end will remain untouched at this point.

Cheers

[TODA AU]

After all tuning was done did the cams have a rough idle? Would you recommend these cams for a daily/track car? Was the power more mid range or top end
Would the stage 3 Brian crower cams be comparable to a buddyclub spec 4.

Please note this build will be for the head only, bottom end will remain untouched at this point.

Cheers

Idle quality was fine. That said, there are actually very few aftermarket Vtec cams that deliver a rough idle.
Whis Vtec engines, a rough ilde is generally casue by camshaft installation (set-up) error and or tuning issue.
Re recommendations etc... LOL... Obviously the answer is no, as I said; I don't rate these cams when compared to ours.
But you didn't ask that, you compared them to others & in that case I think your choice is sound.
For best results, use with std intake manifold & throttle no bigger than 65mm (std infact, will do just fine)
Don't use bigger valves & don't shave the head.
Installation of the cams is critical however & if this isn't spot-on or the head service is half arsed, they thing will be a turd.
Done right with good tuning you should get pretty good results, just remember done wrong is easier for most places. ;)

Regarding power output charateristics etc...
Though going larger in the cams can help increase in power, the combination of intake, cams & headers together with set-up & tuning will determine the shape of the curve & where the power will be delivered.

[IEVAQ8]

my mate has them in his jdm itr......
made good strong power and has had them for over 4 yhears daily driven....

[Louis - Type S]

Idle quality was fine. That said, there are actually very few aftermarket Vtec cams that deliver a rough idle.
Whis Vtec engines, a rough ilde is generally casue by camshaft installation (set-up) error and or tuning issue.
Re recommendations etc... LOL... Obviously the answer is no, as I said; I don't rate these cams when compared to ours.

LOL yes i did forget to ask what cams would you recommend from the TODA catalogue and how much do they go for, you can reply by pm if you like.



Don't use bigger valves & don't shave the head.

i would think that if i used bigger valves and shaved the head it would increase compression which is whats needed to run certain cams. is clearance an issue when it come to shaving the head or is it something totally different.

[TODA AU]

LOL yes i did forget to ask what cams would you recommend from the TODA catalogue and how much do they go for, you can reply by pm if you like.

i would think that if i used bigger valves and shaved the head it would increase compression which is whats needed to run certain cams. is clearance an issue when it come to shaving the head or is it something totally different.
Re TODA cams, I'd recommend Spec B's together with our springs & pulleys. (PM on it'sway re price)

Re larger valves & a shaved head,
The std valve size is actually really good, going larger is 99% of the time a step backwards in power.
Only go .5mm larger if the seats are damaged & the budget won't cover new seats.
The other issue you'll get with large valves is clicking clearence (particularly with SK2 cams) & you can run into premeture piston to valve clearence issues with oversize valves & std pistons too.
FWIW, we never use oversized valves in any of our 160kw+ engines, infact I can't think of any NA B-series engines making more than 160 that do have oversized valves. (Funny huh)
Amyway, rather than looking at valve size, worry about the valve job & the angles used as these can have a very positive effect.
Porting can be a power booster too, but only if done right.

Shaving the head is OK within reason & if you have adjustable cam pulleys & your cams aren't huge...

[MM89]

FWIW, we never use oversized valves in any of our 160kw+ engines, infact I can't think of any NA B-series engines making more than 160 that do have oversized valves. (Funny huh)


Same applies for P72 head?

With Spec C's, would it be detrimental to the longevity or health of the motor without hi comp?

Also, whats the go with Spec D's and Spec F's. I've seen them mentioned before, but never on the toda website.
Some insight to these cams would be good and essentially, if you've built the rest of the motor to accomodate for Spec C's will it be enough to support D's or F's ?

[TODA AU]

Same applies for P72 head?

With Spec C's, would it be detrimental to the longevity or health of the motor without hi comp?

Also, whats the go with Spec D's and Spec F's. I've seen them mentioned before, but never on the toda website.
Some insight to these cams would be good and essentially, if you've built the rest of the motor to accomodate for Spec C's will it be enough to support D's or F's ?

Correct, the PRS & P72 share the same valve size & same base engine platform.
& the std valve size is on the money for bore sizes up to 85mm.
That doesn't mean you can't use better valves, but the so called "Hi comp" valves aren't always the best way to go.

Re compression
Having lower comp won't hurt the engine so to speak it just won't make as much power.
Static compression helps when your dynamic compression is less than ideal.
Eg: With larger cams, at low engine speed the trapping efficency of a larger cam is poor, so it makes less power than a std cam would at low engine speeds. An increase in compression helps negate this effect. but higher in the revs whenthe engine comes on cam & the air speed picks up you have the opposite effect where the increased compression can become a problem.
Once the combination is right, it then comes down to tuning. Good engines make power regardless of tune & really shine when tuned to perfection. On the otherhand, engines with a less than ideal combination don't & the tuner has to battle for every kw earned.
Combination is everything & this is where internet reasearch with mix & match combinations falls down. Experience is paydirt, in both combination map, assembly, mechanical tuning/machining tricks & also ECU setting.
Using the right parts will get you 50% of the way there.
The rest is machining, porting, the builder & tuner. Here, who can be more important than what...

Re: Spec D's
We use them but you can't just buy them anywhere as they're not listed for pubic sale.
Spec D's, E's & F's are also K-series cam & made to order. (Listed on site)
If the motor is put together right such that it makes best power using a Spec C,
A move to a D intake & C2 exhaust will see 5~10hp more.
That said, B-series with huge ports, oversize valves etc etc don't work well with loads of cam. Same can be said for the K-series.
Air speed is critical & any losses will casue the engine to either fall over or just be a dud.
Porting does work, but it doesn't look like much, particularly on the intake side.
The exhaust responds well to porting too. It's tricky to get right but pays off when done right. If you go too far, then step the exhaust cam down a little. (D IN / C EX) etc
That's how we do it. Others favour longer exhaust durations with reduced lift.
Anyway, the cam is just 1 part of a combination & shouldn't be the focus of the whole build.

Hope that helps

[MM89]

Correct, the PRS & P72 share the same valve size & same base engine platform.
& the std valve size is on the money for bore sizes up to 85mm.
That doesn't mean you can't use better valves, but the so called "Hi comp" valves aren't always the best way to go.

So what other differences are there between a P73 head and P72 head minus the valvetrain and obviously the port job?
To get straight to the point, if a P72 and P73 head were both built with the same parts, could they extract the same power or below 5% difference?



Eg: With larger cams, at low engine speed the trapping efficency of a larger cam is poor, so it makes less power than a std cam would at low engine speeds. An increase in compression helps negate this effect. but higher in the revs whenthe engine comes on cam & the air speed picks up you have the opposite effect where the increased compression can become a problem.


Heat? If not, what would be the main problem here?



If the motor is put together right such that it makes best power using a Spec C,
A move to a D intake & C2 exhaust will see 5~10hp more.
That said, B-series with huge ports, oversize valves etc etc don't work well with loads of cam. Same can be said for the K-series.
Air speed is critical & any losses will casue the engine to either fall over or just be a dud.


Hence, why you put a greater emphasis on the valve job and angles - size doesn't matter? lol well a spec C or equivalent would still work better with a mild port right?



Anyway, the cam is just 1 part of a combination & shouldn't be the focus of the whole build.


haha if the whole build uses toda parts, there's not too much to worry about :P

thanks for the in depth reply adrian, very informative as usual!

Louis - Type S, sorry for hi jacking your thread.

[Louis - Type S]

Louis - Type S, sorry for hi jacking your thread.


All good mate, doesnt bother me at all.
always good to here what adrian has to say

[TODA AU]

So what other differences are there between a P73 head and P72 head minus the valvetrain and obviously the port job?
To get straight to the point, if a P72 and P73 head were both built with the same parts, could they extract the same power or below 5% difference?

Heat? If not, what would be the main problem here?

Hence, why you put a greater emphasis on the valve job and angles - size doesn't matter? lol well a spec C or equivalent would still work better with a mild port right?

haha if the whole build uses toda parts, there's not too much to worry about :P


The main differences are combustion chamber & intake port angle.
But the exhaust ports of the P72 are also different. Not nessesarily in a good or bad way, just different. The PR3 has mirrored ports, 1 & 4 & 2&3 where as the P72 ports are simetrical. This makes the P72 less troublesome to flow match on the exhaust side. It doesn't nessesarily make it better though as the high port floor of the PR3 offers it's own advantages.
The intake ports of the P72 offer a steeper angle to the valve than the PR3 offering better potential at high rpm with a coresponding loss in the lower revs, hence the dual stage manifold found on these heads from the factory. The quench pads are also more significant in the P72 offering a smaller chamber affording less crown in the piston for a given compression ratio which is generally a good thing. Thoug a high crown will up the compression, the down side is it also impeads flame propegation & has a negative effect on output togther with it's potential positive.
In any case, either head is a good start point for a high output engine, the key thing to look for & avoid is core shift in the ports.
This is where the Type R B18C PR3 heads have an advantage becasue most (not all) have little if any core shift.
Core shift (in case you're wondering) is the port offset to the seat. None is great, any is bad. In a nut shell.
Once you have a no core shift head, you've got a good base to start your high output build.

Re problems regarding high compression & dynamic compression.
The problem isn't so much heat than available fuel. Higher octane fuels can help, but the down side is they're also lazy & tend to take a while to burn. That is is though they will help make power at lower rpm which high comp with the addition of timing, at high revs they can burn so slowly that the output is less than impressive no matter what you do.
Flip side is a lower octane fuel can produce higher outputs at high rpm simply becasue it burns faster but can be near on impossible to tune at low rpm.
This is where a balance or compromise needs to be struck to arive at best mean power.
Compression is a good thing to a point after that, too much is worse than not enough.
So in laymans terms a mild increase in compression together with a cam swap is pretty much the right way to go, but don't get too enthusiastic.
& the total compression usable comes down to available fuel & the VE or dynamic compression the combination delivers.
as a side note, there is a lot of merit to having a biased chamber, be that in the head through a CNC chamber pioneered here in Aust by Dyno Dave. Or something like the Endyne "Roller Wave" Wiseco pistons, though to be honest I've never used these so can't really comment other than to say it looks like it would likley be of benifit. Beyond that I cant really say as I'm not a fan of that brand of piston so think it unlikley I'd ever try therm & Dave's chambers work & are locally available here in Aust. :thumbsup:
FWIW, the CNC chamber when combined with correct porting, piston crown, clearences, assembly & tuning will enhance the ability of the engine to make power through a very broad rpm range & use a very large cam.
Peak output can be class leading with excellent manners throughout.
& the total static compression need only to be 11.5~11.9:1 to get there.

When larger valves are used together with large head ports, the static compression needs to be higher to recover some of the power lost through poor dynamic compression, due to lowered airspeed. Engines like this also fall over with cams that are too big for the combination due to the larger cam causing the airspeed to drop even further.
Anyway, like I said before it comes back to combination.
For us, we like to keep the ports closer to factory size on the intake but the exhaust is a different story. What should be clear though is there are a variety of ways to get the engine to make x amount of power, some more effective than others. Saying one way is the right way & another is the wrong way though is perhaps a little narrow minded.
There are plenty of good parts out there that a good combination could be produced from, the problem is working out what that is. & then you've got people like me who are biased, LOL.
& I agree with what you suggested, that using an all Toda combination is one way to get the parts combination right.
Just bare in mind this gets to 50% of the way there. The rest is still very important.
Couple of rules of thumb,,,
Porting done right will be of measurable benifit... Done wrong is the opposite. If in doubt, leave well enough alone.
CNC chambers... Pretty hard to go wrong here.
Comression... Keep it sensible.
Valves... Try & avoid going larger.
(A side issue encountered with oversized valves is the need for oversized flycuts & clicking clearence issues (valve to valve) when some cams are used & installed on spec - SK2 pro series springs to mind)

Valve job... This is critical - don't save money here.
Tip - Use factory Honda K20A/Z valve angles :thumbsup:
& be sure to have all the valve seats cut to the same height:cool:

Cheers

Adrian

[Chr1s]

Ditto to Dave's chambers.

[Vvvtec]

Adrian your the effing master.