EK9 front strut bar onto an EK1

[ROM30S]

hey guys i want to buy this ek9 front upper strut bar but has anyone noticed with ek1's there are no holes for the ek9 strut bar to fit, only these circle that look like you could probaly drill them out.

has anyone fitted an ek9 strut bar to a 96-98 ek1 if so did you drill out those holes? and what bolts did you use to bolt down the strut bar?

http://i51.tinypic.com/30jk7kp.jpg
yes this image is from alvis

http://i52.tinypic.com/24fiatl.jpg

[dcjx90]

yep done it to my ek1. My strut bar was from a dc2 though.

all you have to do is drill out the holes and thread two bolts up from the chassis above the wheel

http://s1081.photobucket.com/albums/j341/dcjx90/?action=view&current=10112010186.jpg

http://s1081.photobucket.com/albums/j341/dcjx90/?action=view&current=10112010187.jpg

[ROM30S]

aight sweet sounds easy. so you just drill those holes out and put a bolt upwards from underneath the wheel arch and bolt it straight on correct?

[TheSaint]

lol EK9 front CHASSIS BRACE (not strut bar) is just a normal VTIR bar thats painted red ........

[ROM30S]

lol EK9 front CHASSIS BRACE (not strut bar) is just a normal VTIR bar thats painted red ........

yeh wat ever same thing

[TheSaint]

yeh wat ever same thing

not really ...
the OEM chassis brace that comes on VTIR/GSR/EK9 does almost stuff all compared to a single peice unit that actually connects the shock tops
trust me i have both OEM and ultra racing - and the OEM does nothing lol

http://throwdownperformance.com/images/UR%20TW2-339.jpg

[VT3C]

run both :)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k210/VTEChnique/JDM%20Bits/crusty-mugen_4-1_7.jpg

and I disagree that the OEM brace does nothing.. run it without the brace and feels like driving a rubber bathtub ! and generally honda doesnt do thing for no reason.

[Alvis]

So, in the interests of the Civic's overall handling - if you are stiffening the front of the car with this brace, would you also need to replicate this at the rear?

[Tai]

lol EK9 front CHASSIS BRACE (not strut bar) is just a normal VTIR bar thats painted red ........

Incorrect, its actually much thicker and heavier than the vtir ones.

[TheSaint]

yeah i run both as well lol

and thanks for the heads up Tai - didnt know that

[Oz_Striker]

lol EK9 front CHASSIS BRACE (not strut bar) is just a normal VTIR bar thats painted red ........

Better not get back into the "strut bar"/"chassis brace" argument lol :P

[sw1fty]

dont understand why you would need to run both lol

[Alvis]

yep, more explanation lads on why you would need to run both?

Which option would be 'adequate' for everyday street driving?

[Tai]

No need to run both,

Best strut bar/chasis brace to get is a solid 3 point ones like :

Carbing
Benen
Password jdm
Rigid ...etc

The Spoon one VT3C is running is useless as it is pivotable.

If you tighened the Spoon at the bit the bracket joins to the bar, you can still force it to move with your bare hands.


And effective bar is one that is fully solid with no weak points and preferably 3 point.

[Alvis]

So, assuming you go with a bar type strut/brace that's not a 3 point (let's assume) you're saying you get one that bolts onto the outer points in the engine bay - ie the holes you have to drill - rather than one on top of the shocks?

[Tai]

You obviously have no idea what Im on about.

Im saying bars connected by a single bolt on each side for the bracket are useless to full solid bars.

go to below link for reference

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ULTRA-RACING-3-Point-Fender-Bar-Toyota-AE86-/150506582537?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item230ae43209

[Alvis]

so strut/braces connected by a single bolt on each side (ie not 3 point) are not what you call 'full solid bars'?

[Tai]

Yes, but there are 3 point bars that come with the single bolt connections which are also useless.

Solid meaning no weak points.

One whole piece.

[Alvis]

so without going to a 3 point bar, would something like the Mugen brace be good?

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9153/0704ht02z2001acurainteg.jpg
By civica (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/civica) at 2010-11-11

[sw1fty]

e.g. crap brace

http://tuningevolution.com/eshop/catalog/images/Honda-Civic-82-00.jpg

see how near the ends there is a bolt that joins the bracket from the strut to the bar?
this is crap because it means under load the bolt allows it to pivot slightly, thereby making it less effective than if it was solid

e.g. good brace

http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/108088799/ULTRA_RACING_2_Point_Rear_Strut_Bar.jpg

See how it has no adjustability or pivot points? this means its gonna be more solid and allow for less movement.

[Alvis]

right, yep I can see exactly what you mean... sorry i'm a bit of a noob at this atm; but mugen = good brace :)

[mugen_ctr]

Just a quick one, how do we mount our strut bars on Ek's? theres a solid pipe line that runs next to the strut tops making it impossible to fit on without moving that

[Tai]

Need to move it aside, by removing the gold/zinc coloured bracket

It will be a ight squeeze, but doable.

[Alvis]

Thought i'd fire up some more discussion on this topic with some interesting extracts from a Suspension Secrets article from Whiteline talking about strut/chassis braces and suspension setup in FWDs:


1. Are there any factory front-wheel-drive vehicles that handle extraordinarily well?
The best ones are Honda Civics - they've got lovely geometry. However, they're the easiest ones to stuff up with lowering. They respond very well to better shocks and a rear bar - they respond badly to lowering without some expensive changes to geometry.


2. What should be someone's first FWD suspension mods with a budget of around $500?
A decent wheel alignment, a bigger rear bar and something like a castor kit on the front.


3. Upping the budget to around $1500, what should come next?
I'd have to say quality rubber or shocks, plus the items I mentioned before. As far as the shocks are concerned, when you put a bigger rear bar on, you have the effect of slaving one side to the other. It has to work harder. Straight away that puts OE shocks under stress so they'll wear out sooner. An aftermarket shock should last longer and give better control.

I'd also look at the front swaybar and the bushes, depending on what car it is.


4. Are strut braces truly effective?
One of the great opportunities is chassis stiffness. We no longer refer to just strut braces, we refer to chassis braces - we're introducing more and more braces. A strut brace is only one tool in the whole arsenal.

The lower control arm braces are a huge area for gain. If we do nothing but change that on a front-wheel-drive car, you'll find a huge difference. It's much tighter - but it'll feel like it's understeering more. We often hear the car understeers more when an upper or lower brace is put on.

I say that's good - that means whatever you do now is more directly related. A simple wheel alignment change will usually fix that understeer.

Rear strut braces on front-wheel-drives are one of the killer applications. In other words, if you put a rear bar
on a FWD and then put a rear strut brace on, you'll notice a big difference.


http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/articles/AS_susp_01_0202.pdf


***So, after reading that article it sounds like the suspension/chassis mod list would look something like the following***:
1. Wheel alignment
2. Thicker rear sway bar
3. Front castor kit
4. Quality tyres
5. Quality suspension
6. Front swaybar + bushes
7. Chassis braces (front, rear, control arms)


My first question is - how much understeer would you have compared to stock by fitting a thicker rear sway bar and is this a good thing given FWD tend to understeer to start with anyway?

[mugen_ctr]

depends how ur setup is already, stock or some mods already? I think many tend to go for the type-r handling, using type-R swaybars, as it has the correct amount of thickness which equates to the correct balance of under an over steer. Factor in coil-overs, with similar spring rates to type-r or higher, it would be pretty much like a go cart.


remember that manufactures purposely increase under steer to all vehicles so idiots who dont know how to drive dont spin it an wrap em selfs around a pole

[Alvis]

right - so going back to the fact this thread was created to talk about an EK1 - does anyone know if an EK9 Type R front and rear swaybar will fit on an EK1 sedan chassis?

[sw1fty]

honestly,
since i put the dc2r rear sway on my car, it now oversteers more than understeers,
i think i need a bigger front sway or an alignment to fix it up...

yes, ek9 rear will fit but u need new lca's since the stock ones dont have mounting holes in them.
as for front, im not sure, mine came stock with a front sway bar.

[Tai]

EK1 sedan has front sway bar, but its smaller than ek9/ek4.

rear lca has holes for sway bar to fit.





honestly,
since i put the dc2r rear sway on my car, it now oversteers more than understeers,
i think i need a bigger front sway or an alignment to fix it up...

yes, ek9 rear will fit but u need new lca's since the stock ones dont have mounting holes in them.
as for front, im not sure, mine came stock with a front sway bar.

[Alvis]

ok cool :)

and for everyday street driving is there any point in fitting a front caster kit - Does this basically try to minimise the front of the car raising under acceleration and diving under braking? ...sounds more like a track option...

[GenesisEG]

I'm going to give an answer in regards to the reason for understeer being made more prominent after installing a front brace. I might be mistaken, so please forgive me if this is so, but it seems to make sense to me. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

In a car that has no chassis bracing, the chassis is flexible. Under cornering stress, the car twists and flexes as the grip from the tires and the mass of the car struggle against one another. The centrifugal forces generated as a result of cornering are attempting to pull the car outward from the inside of the corner.

Now I know that we're not talking about coilovers here, but for the sake of using extremes to make a point, I'm going to refer to them.

In a car that has stock springs, shocks and no bracing, the car responds to these centrifugal forces by rolling and flexing. The rolling is usually cured by installing stiffer springs and shocks (usually coilovers), the flexing needs to be addressed by using braces, but both affect each other.

Both of these forces cause both the contact surface between the tire and the road, and the distribution of weight, to change during cornering.

As the car rolls, the weight is shifted to the outside tire, and removed from the inside tire. I call this rotational force, as the car rotates around the centre of gravity.

As the car flexes, the strut assembly, wheel and tire all lean, causing the surface of the tire to meet unevenly with the road surface, reducing the total amount of surface area.

On a stock car, these forces sort of work together by pressing the outside tire into the road, causing its potential grip to increase as the friction between the tire and the road increases due to the increased pressure. The downside is that the inside tire is doing sweet bugger all.

If you install coilovers and start bracing the front of the car, it responds differently to the centrifugal forces applied to it. Instead of rotating around the centre of gravity and leaning toward the outside tire, it moves more laterally. It no longer rolls, but strafes.

Using average tires, you will notice more understeer, as the pressure being applied to the outside tire is lessened. The pressure is now being more evenly distributed over the tires. Generally speaking, average tires don't respond to this lateral movement too well.

In effect, what you are doing by stiffening up the car, is making the tires work harder.

If you install great tires on a stock car, the inside tire will still be doing nothing during cornering, as all of the weight is being shifted to the outside tire as a result of the body roll, and the flexion of the car will cause the contact patch to be reduced.

When you install coilovers, you reduce that body roll and change the way the weight shift affects the car, causing lateral rather than rotational force. The tires are then able to work together to keep the car glued to the road. Four tires are better than two, and by flattening out that body, you're causing the inside tires to work more. However, until you install that bracing, your tires will still not be making maximum contact with the road.

So really, you need to look at every upgrade as a small part of a big picture. Not every upgrade is going to give you positive results straight away. Stiffening up your car and retaining dodgy tires is going to reduce performance rather than improve it.

One more thing with bracing, and that's consistency. In a stiff car, handling during cornering becomes more predictable. Good bushings, a good shock/spring combo and the appropriate bracing, along with good brakes, wheels and tires, will all make the car much more pleasurable to drive. You'll be able to corner hard knowing almost exactly how the car will respond because the unpredictable flexing and twisting has been reduced.

I know that was a long, possibly ill-informed and somewhat off-topic post, but you see why bracing the front causes understeer, especially in FWD cars. Until you upgrade those tires, don't expect to see much in the way of positive results, unless you count being able to predict that extra understeer more easily as positive.

Hope this helps, and I really hope it's not all completely wrong!

[sw1fty]

EK1 sedan has front sway bar, but its smaller than ek9/ek4.

rear lca has holes for sway bar to fit.

oh my bad, thought they didnt have holes

[Alvis]

Wow! Thanks GenesisEG - I'm no suspension/handling expert but all makes sense to me.

So I guess we can use that same principle as to why you get understeer when you increase rigidity at the rear of the car with a thicker sway bar - would I be right in saying that?

[mugen_ctr]

Good tires make a huge difference, i had bf goodrich sports tires on, what a difference! car glued to the road, but body roll = Fail! lol, with the help of a rear sway bar, huge improvement!

Thicker rear sway bar, means u need more force in terms to twist it to allow flex, so yes, BUT in saying so, Its best to run Thicker at the front an thinner at the rear, a general rule of thumb, not just me, but many manufactures, oem or aftermarket, as said, its all about balance, no one wants to understeer or oversteer, many strive for cart like handling, but of course, its much easier to just get a caterham or radical SR3/SR4 lol

And also, there are other ways to increase over/under steer, sway bars being one of em, tires, suspension etc etc, its the whole package in the end really

[GenesisEG]

Actually Alvis, when you stiffen up the rear, you tend to get more oversteer. The same principle applies, if the lateral force exceeds the grip of the tires, they will slide sideways during cornering. The stiffer the car is, the more the car tends toward lateral force over rotational force, and the more emphasised the oversteer or understeer becomes. That's why drift cars have softer front springs and rock solid rear springs, so the front grips more and the back slides more. You can actually control the car's tendency toward over or understeer simply by increasing or decreasing rigidity in the front and rear of the vehicle.

The biggest and often most understated upgrade for handling is tires, but all in all, it's balance you want. The harder and stiffer your car becomes, the more reliant it is on tire grip.

Then you get into toe, camber and caster settings...

[Alvis]

That's been a great help GenesisEG - thanks for sharing your knowledge on suspension and handling, very helpful for us noobs in understanding how everything works as package - front and rear.

Cheers mate +1 rep :)