New car handling and old school hondas

[quang]

Hi everyone,
Very curious question, do new FWD cars i.e golfs, focuses, sp25 and like really handle that well? i guess i'm asking for example (and in no way i'm a condoning street racing) spirited drives with another motor ethusiast that you may happen to come by, you pick the speed up a little through corners. To me the newer cars just seem so much more stable. i know most of us work our cars to handle better but to me after looking at how the new cars go, it doesn't feel that the upgrades you make do much in comparison to a stock new car.

I know there are alot of factors to consider like, most of our cars are very old, tyre choice (most of those newer cars come with pretty decent tyres), new braking technology, power differences, advanced drivetrains etc.
The thing that throws me the most is that most newer cars weigh a lot more than your average EG, EK or DC yet they still go like the clappers.
i do realise on the track its a different story and i have no questions there.

This might just be a rant, but i would really like to know what you think.
(asking silly question suit on :))

[Oz_Striker]

You have to take into account that new cars have a lot more technology in them too for example: ESC (electronic stability control). Older cars are much more simple where as new cars are driven with a lot more electronics and dont feel as raw mechanically when you drive them. To a certain extent newer cars can do a lot more of the driving for you IMO.

[quang]

yeah thats fair enough, does ESC really do that much?

[dc2r-0636]

yeah if you're an assist driver lol

[curtis265]

You are correct, it's all the new technology integrated into new cars. I used to drive an fd and a eg. The eg understeered so easily whereas it was almost impossible to understeer in the fd (driving normally of course - stock fd is shit on track lol)



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[dougie_504]

yeah thats fair enough, does ESC really do that much?


I've heard that it's considered to be the greatest safety upgrade in a car since the seatbelt.


Personally I like older cars for driving/handling because of the 'raw' feeling, which to me means that I get more driving feedback from the car. Even my GF today commented that my CRX 'feels like it's going fast' when I'm giving it a squirt or driving on the freeway etc, whereas her 2008 corolla always feels the same...smoothe...quiet...almost like you're sitting at a computer desk writing an essay - pretty boring!
When I drive my GF's car or my dad's Fairmont Ghia I just don't get any of that feedback from the car. The softness of the suspension and the quietness in the cabin makes it a little harder for me to understand how the car is responding to my driving. With my CRX and my Civic I can feel the bumps, the strain on the chassis when I turn hard etc.

That said driving a new car will be better in so many ways, just because it's newer. It's probably more stable, has no suspension issues, better technology, better handling components etc. But it's just not for me, just a bit boring...

[Oz_Striker]

You are correct, it's all the new technology integrated into new cars. I used to drive an fd and a eg. The eg understeered so easily whereas it was almost impossible to understeer in the fd (driving normally of course - stock fd is shit on track lol)

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
sent mine with taptalk too, its a handy app


I've heard that it's considered to be the greatest safety upgrade in a car since the seatbelt.


Personally I like older cars for driving/handling because of the 'raw' feeling, which to me means that I get more driving feedback from the car. Even my GF today commented that my CRX 'feels like it's going fast' when I'm giving it a squirt or driving on the freeway etc, whereas her 2008 corolla always feels the same...smoothe...quiet...almost like you're sitting at a computer desk writing an essay - pretty boring!
When I drive my GF's car or my dad's Fairmont Ghia I just don't get any of that feedback from the car. The softness of the suspension and the quietness in the cabin makes it a little harder for me to understand how the car is responding to my driving. With my CRX and my Civic I can feel the bumps, the strain on the chassis when I turn hard etc.

That said driving a new car will be better in so many ways, just because it's newer. It's probably more stable, has no suspension issues, better technology, better handling components etc. But it's just not for me, just a bit boring...

Know exactly what you mean. Going from driving my parents 2005 model civic to my 1999 ek, i noticed a huge difference. As you said newer cars feel so much slower, my mum hates being in my car, always telling me to slow down because she is so used to her car. I also noticed to a certain extent the engine sound on some newer cars is a lot more electronic too (when they're stock of course), my ek definately sounds more mechanical than the rents car


yeah thats fair enough, does ESC really do that much?

can save your life mate, if you start to lose traction and start to oversteer the cars computer takes control of the speed that each wheel is traveling at, and adjusts it useing the brakes on certain wheels to keep the car pointing straight and to stop you from losing control. i think thats how it works anyway, let me know if its not because now i wanna know for sure lol

[TheSaint]

I've heard that it's considered to be the greatest safety upgrade in a car since the seatbelt.


Personally I like older cars for driving/handling because of the 'raw' feeling, which to me means that I get more driving feedback from the car. Even my GF today commented that my CRX 'feels like it's going fast' when I'm giving it a squirt or driving on the freeway etc, whereas her 2008 corolla always feels the same...smoothe...quiet...almost like you're sitting at a computer desk writing an essay - pretty boring!
When I drive my GF's car or my dad's Fairmont Ghia I just don't get any of that feedback from the car. The softness of the suspension and the quietness in the cabin makes it a little harder for me to understand how the car is responding to my driving. With my CRX and my Civic I can feel the bumps, the strain on the chassis when I turn hard etc.

That said driving a new car will be better in so many ways, just because it's newer. It's probably more stable, has no suspension issues, better technology, better handling components etc. But it's just not for me, just a bit boring...

i get told to slow down all the time in my car - than the passenger looks over at the spedo and im generally doing less than the limit lol

[curtis265]

can save your life mate, if you start to lose traction and start to oversteer the cars computer takes control of the speed that each wheel is traveling at, and adjusts it useing the brakes on certain wheels to keep the car pointing straight and to stop you from losing control. i think thats how it works anyway, let me know if its not because now i wanna know for sure lol

Yeah that's the idea.if ur oversteering it'll brake one of the back wheels hard to create a sort of 'pivot point'. then your momentum will straighten out the vehicle. I'm sure it's saved my life at least once.

[quang]

yeah i realise that ESC is a great step in vehicle safety and all cars (i think they do now) should come with it. i definately love the raw feeling too. so it look like the new cars will have the edge in any case. but we have more fun :)

[mugen_ctr]

Alot of the newer cars handle soooo much better than any other cars made in 90's... tech has advanced quite a bit since that, tire tech, suspension geomtry as such... if the newer EP3/DC5R dropped weight to around 1000kg, id say itd be one best fwd of the turn of century, but as the yrs go on, the car get fatter

One thing that iev noticed with alot of the newer FWD, is the power differance... 250hp plus!... that was unheard back in 1990 lol.... But with power comes torque steer and under steer issues... no matter what suspension mods or chassis mods, there is a limit on power on a FWD platform from what iev seen

[Oz_Striker]

Alot of the newer cars handle soooo much better than any other cars made in 90's... tech has advanced quite a bit since that, tire tech, suspension geomtry as such... if the newer EP3/DC5R dropped weight to around 1000kg, id say itd be one best fwd of the turn of century, but as the yrs go on, the car get fatter

One thing that iev noticed with alot of the newer FWD, is the power differance... 250hp plus!... that was unheard back in 1990 lol.... But with power comes torque steer and under steer issues... no matter what suspension mods or chassis mods, there is a limit on power on a FWD platform from what iev seen

Yeah true, with the more and more tech they put in cars, the more and more heavier they seem to get.

It's funny you say that about tourque steer, i don't really see people talking about that, that often on this forum. It would be interseting to drive a RWD civic or the like and see how much better they handle, i reckon they would be a fair bit more fun, especially with a K20 or somthing in it lol

[vinnY]

^ equal length driveshafts and lsd help tame torque steer, no?

[Oz_Striker]

^ equal length driveshafts and lsd help tame torque steer, no?

true but can't an LSD create some understeer through turns? thats what i thought anyway

[vinnY]

pretty sure it does the opposite
well mine does anyway, it's a nice sensation to feel it working :)

[mugen_ctr]

true but can't an LSD create some understeer through turns? thats what i thought anyway

Depends on what LSD, 1 way, which is what FF cars should use, allows the power to be transfered the vehicle under load to the wheels, when corner especially,whenthere is no load on the lsd to transfer power, where as FR, generally, is 1.5 or 2 way LSD, again, power is transfered into the wheels under cornering an off load... LSD tech has improved HEAPS... electronic lsd ftw... pretty much what WRC cars use

Thats what i knw lol, if theres more fill me in

[vinnY]

1 way = lock under acceleration only
1.5way = lock under acceleration, half lock on deceleration
2way = lock under both acceleration and deceleration

there's no 'what ff cars should use' guideline
as for transferring power, depends what sort of lsd
helical lsd such as the stock itr one just multiplies torque to the wheel with traction
whereas a plate lsd truely locks the the wheels together instead of giving torque to the wheel with traction

[mugen_ctr]

So would u run a 2way LSD on a fwd? im not sure man... from what iev been told from few workshops an one or two guys that 1 way an 1.5 way lsd is best prefered on fwd, 2way lsd creates too much understeer

[Oz_Striker]

^^^ thats what i thought but wouldn't that mean any LSD would make the car understeer more when you accelerate through and out of a corner because with any LSD whether it be 1 way, 1.5 or 2 way they are all going to have both wheels locked under acceleration. My understanding was that because there is torque through both wheels, the car is more inclined to go straight ahead because fwd cars don't handle as well when there is more torque through the front wheels. i dunno though i'm probly wrong

[vinnY]

didn't say anything about what to use, just explaining how they work
I'm sure they have their own applications given the situation

[e240]

Whether you use a 1.0, 1.5 or 2.0 really comes down to driving style and application. I actually know a guy who competes in rallies and using our MFactory 2 way Metal LSD.
Generally, a 1.0 way is the easiest to control for people not used metal lsd. Most others tend to use 1.5way for circuit.

Note, the stock helical LSD is not a X way LSD as it doesn't truely lock as Vinny mentioned.

On understeering, an LSD can create some understeer, but the benefits of having better control over the car far outweighs that. In any car, if you go overspeed into corners, you're likely to plow and understeer anyway, LSD or not...

In most cases, you can set the car up to address the understeer.