turbo or NA

[kevibumz]

hey guys,

i got a jdm b16a and i plan to do some slight mods. i would like to get the engine recond as its a bit old now, and at the same time, install some valve springs, retainers, guides, cam gears and pulleys. now, the question here is, i don't know whether i want to turbo or stay true to NA. i've been getting a few mixed messages here and there.

-first off, i was thinking h2b, considering engineering cert, sourcing the engine i want, getting parts, it all adds up over my current budget. though, it is still a posibility. but the questions are down there...


-i was thinking just adding a bit of raw power to the engine and make it more responsive adding the things stated above. (but i am also a little under sourced as to what to do with the head, if anyone can clarify what i CAN do that would be awesome, like polishing the head etc) i know i can add a lighter flywheel, but im not sure as to whether it would be better or worse off as i spend more time sitting on 100 than city driving and tracking. and as an na car, high comp pistons would be in for higher potential but won't necessarily increase power by that much correct? i already have supertech valve springs, retainers and guides, but what else could i get to add to this list to go into the engine regardless of my build?

-Then turbo came into play, but i hear the stock block can handle UP TO 10psi, but then i hear that the bseries doesnt like it and blows and "it isnt made for it" and many people are getting the lower comp pistons for the boost for under 10psi. now, if i wanna turbo, i believe lower comp pistons are recommended, allowing higher boost. if i only want about 200hp atw would this be necessary though? or at this point is it entirely on piece of mind?

thanks guys,
i know its a bit of confusion on my end, i have done a bit of research and its quite a load to take in.

[Touge Tom]

Have you given thought to maybe supercharging

[Touge Tom]

Whats you goals with this motor/car daily, track, drag,
touge monster or red light weekend warrior?

[curtis265]

Don't know much, so i'll just pick at the flywheel bit...
Considering you only use the car on the streets i wouldn't recommend a light flywheel. It's great for rev matching and all. but it's a bitch to get used to on the streets.

[BIGTYM]

I've had my stock B16A EM1 turbo for close to 3 years now and never had any mechanical issues. I've even tracked it and still no dramas. If you decided on turbo option the key is sourcing quality parts and getting a solid tune. With that in mind you shouldn't find yourself in trouble.

[kevibumz]

its a street car, won't be tracked very often if at all. but can also be used as a red light warrior. lol i have searched supercharging, not much source on it. do you have any info on supercharging? i would like to hear about it. and yeah the flywheel bit is a no go for me, did research on that and it seems it will not benefit me as much as it wouldnt. and bigtym, can i ask how much boost and power are you running? and how is the fuel economy??

cheers guys

[kevibumz]

ALSO, now considering b20 vtec. could i use the stuff i got for the b20 block too? i have read on it, and it is as cheap if not cheaper than turbo, but i understand a bit more work needs to go into it?? machining, pressing... thoughts anyone?

[d15z1SUX]

maybe work out what your budget is then go from there.

[Touge Tom]

going a b20 vtec over your current b16 would be a 20% increase in capacity,torque and power give or take a few digits. if it wont be track'd very often supercharging would be a nice way to go considering you cant always hit high cam in traffic or light's to lights. and supercharging (positive displacement) i find is better for the every day grind due to not having to drop 2nd's all the time to feel any torque. now most will tell you supercharging is a waste of time /money. but this would come from most that dont understand the purpose of it. now heading in that direction the idea is to give a motor a flat torque curve. for example positive displacement work's like this, say your b16 has 160Nm of torque now adding say 'bout half (0.50) bar/8psi. now your adding half an atmosphere(50% displacement) to your current displacement bringing it to 2.4 liter engine. and lets say it now has 240Nm of torque. now like a N/A set up a positive displacement supercharger will lose torque in the top end of the rev range. it provides great torque from idle to mid range. making your motor feel bigger, from the word go. but like i said it runs out of puff at the top end. you'll make more power/torque over stock, but a turbo charger would make it's torque from midrange to top end holding that torque in the high end. it would make it feel like a bigger motor from the midrange onwards, being more efficient 2.4 liter's of displacement at high rev's and will equal better top end power over a supercharger. the idea behind a turbo is to have a constantly increasing torque curve. it really depends on your style of driving i guess?

it all about math's really. torque X RPM = your top end power.

[LANCEEG]

its a street car, won't be tracked very often if at all. but can also be used as a red light warrior. lol i have searched supercharging, not much source on it. do you have any info on supercharging? i would like to hear about it. and yeah the flywheel bit is a no go for me, did research on that and it seems it will not benefit me as much as it wouldnt. and bigtym, can i ask how much boost and power are you running? and how is the fuel economy??

cheers guys

One of the first steps you should b taking is working out a realistic
Budget and a goal of what power u want to b making..
Unless u've done that already?

[dougie_504]

I know a bloke with a bone stock JDM B16A making anywhere between 178-193kw ATW depending on the dyno at 10PSI (been doing this for 4 years I believe). You can surely make 200HP with stock internals IMO. Been done several times.

[kevibumz]

i have worked out my budget, and thats where i'm going with these questions. if i NEED to do the pistons in the engine to do turbo, turbo is a no go as i don't have the funds to support everything that goes with piston work. i figured, stock block turbo would get about 160kw atw which i would LOVE. but if it is unreliable (as i average 100-150 km/day) then turbo will be a no go. i plan to keep this car as a daily and i do drive it VERY often. in fact, i have owned that car for just over a year now and i've done approx. 60 000 kms already. it has held up and NEVER missed a beat on me and thats why i absolutely stick by honda. i give it a push here and there whenever the urge arises and still average under 9L/100km and im lovin it.

going to supercharging, that sounds great having bottom end to mid range power, BUT it won't give me the pulling back sensation throughout the rev range will it? only low to mid, and the rest is just a stand still from mid to top yeah? how much would this setup cost me? as i didnt find much info on s/c i didnt look into any pricings... and would this give me more traction issues than turbo would? and would this kill my fuel economy as the turbo would?

and dougie, that bloke is quite lucky since i have heard that running 10psi kills ur block quite quick even if it runs reliably. correct me if i'm wrong of course. i know it is do-able but i need it to be reliable at the same time. i get alot of mixed messages everywhere. alot say they are capable of up to 10psi before forging is necessary and some say their engines blow even on 6psi. hence the questions.

cheers again guys. keep the replies coming

[kevibumz]

i have worked out my budget, and thats where i'm going with these questions. if i NEED to do the pistons in the engine to do turbo, turbo is a no go as i don't have the funds to support everything that goes with piston work. i figured, stock block turbo would get about 160kw atw which i would LOVE. but if it is unreliable (as i average 100-150 km/day) then turbo will be a no go. i plan to keep this car as a daily and i do drive it VERY often. in fact, i have owned that car for just over a year now and i've done approx. 60 000 kms already. it has held up and NEVER missed a beat on me and thats why i absolutely stick by honda. i give it a push here and there whenever the urge arises and still average under 9L/100km and im lovin it.

going to supercharging, that sounds great having bottom end to mid range power, BUT it won't give me the pulling back sensation throughout the rev range will it? only low to mid, and the rest is just a stand still from mid to top yeah? how much would this setup cost me? as i didnt find much info on s/c i didnt look into any pricings... and would this give me more traction issues than turbo would? and would this kill my fuel economy as the turbo would?

and dougie, that bloke is quite lucky since i have heard that running 10psi kills ur block quite quick even if it runs reliably. correct me if i'm wrong of course. i know it is do-able but i need it to be reliable at the same time. i get alot of mixed messages everywhere. alot say they are capable of up to 10psi before forging is necessary and some say their engines blow even on 6psi. hence the questions.

cheers again guys. keep the replies coming

[dougie_504]

i have worked out my budget, and thats where i'm going with these questions. if i NEED to do the pistons in the engine to do turbo, turbo is a no go as i don't have the funds to support everything that goes with piston work. i figured, stock block turbo would get about 160kw atw which i would LOVE. but if it is unreliable (as i average 100-150 km/day) then turbo will be a no go. i plan to keep this car as a daily and i do drive it VERY often. in fact, i have owned that car for just over a year now and i've done approx. 60 000 kms already. it has held up and NEVER missed a beat on me and thats why i absolutely stick by honda. i give it a push here and there whenever the urge arises and still average under 9L/100km and im lovin it.

going to supercharging, that sounds great having bottom end to mid range power, BUT it won't give me the pulling back sensation throughout the rev range will it? only low to mid, and the rest is just a stand still from mid to top yeah? how much would this setup cost me? as i didnt find much info on s/c i didnt look into any pricings... and would this give me more traction issues than turbo would? and would this kill my fuel economy as the turbo would?

and dougie, that bloke is quite lucky since i have heard that running 10psi kills ur block quite quick even if it runs reliably. correct me if i'm wrong of course. i know it is do-able but i need it to be reliable at the same time. i get alot of mixed messages everywhere. alot say they are capable of up to 10psi before forging is necessary and some say their engines blow even on 6psi. hence the questions.

cheers again guys. keep the replies coming


Or maybe his engine wasn't built by a fukwit.

Why don't you let us know what your budget is mate?

General rule is this - you choose ONLY two of three things:
- Cheap
- Power
- Reliability

If you want a reliable 160kw ATW it will cost you, and I'm thinking $10g+. My friend spent $15g (?4 years ago) and pretty much hasn't had a single issue, with lots of driving and plenty of punishment.

[thanatozz]

For the type of driving you're looking for. Mainly dayly and the grind, not high rpm races etc. I'd go with the supercharger for easy power. The turbines are spun by the crank not exhaust from the engine so there's no delay, which is why they're starting from low to mid revs. That's pretty much all i know about superchargers though as mine is turbo'd, so not an expert opinion lol.

[Touge Tom]

From my last look at prices a complete jackson racing supercharger kit cost from 2500 dollars. Then ya gotta tune it. So add another 500- 800 dollars. This will be the cheapest way to go. Cos building a n/a b20vtec is way more expensive. I think I have spent bout 10,000 dollars on my motor. All forged internals, high comp, cams and all the intake and exhaust plumbing. You would definitely get a cheaper and better result from boosting your current b16. Or rather say more performance per dollar spent.

[BIGTYM]

bigtym, can i ask how much boost and power are you running? and how is the fuel economy??


7.5psi = 130kw @ the wheels.

Sensible highway driving can get 500km's to a full tank.

[Touge Tom]

7.5psi = 130kw @ the wheels.

Sensible highway driving can get 500km's to a full tank.

What comp is the engine?

[BIGTYM]

Stock USDM B16A2.

[kevibumz]

well the only 2 places i feel comfortable bringing my car to in wa are all star garage and cypher industries as they are The places to go here and they are absolutely not ****wits. anyways sorry guys i didnt give you a budget but i am still in the saving stage, but i would say i want to put in about 3-4k when i get there. thus i want to know the better choice for this price range.
b20 vtec seems to be out of the question at this stage, and so does h2b. thus leaving me with turbo and sc. i guess its just up to my personal choice whether i want the power low or high.

cheers guys. thats what i needed.

[dougie_504]

B20 is possible, just need a block and labour for the swap, conversion kit, breather setup, bolt-ons, gaskets, belts, pumps etc. Compliance. It's possible, or maybe just outside your limit. Also brakes/clutch to address.


$3000-4000 isn't enough for FI surely.

Even if you get a Jackson Racing S/C kit, does that include all of the fuel components? Brake upgrade? ECU? Tuning? Compliance (assuming you do it). New clutch to handle the power?

Fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, fuel rail, fuel injectors, new exhaust for the larger output, including cat converter/backpipe/muffler/manifold. Cooling system?

[kevibumz]

well as i said, saving stage means i still havent reached that goal as yet, but i will definately look into Fi for sure when the time comes.

cheers guys

[barefootbonzai]

Decent Turbo kit ~$4k
Decent Clutch/Fly ~$1k
Exhaust ~$1k
ECU n Tune ~$1k
Misc items ~$1k
Labour...... $0 if you do it yourself, probably like a couple of thousand at least done by a workshop.

That's on a stock motor setup, keeping saving...

[Tegzieboi_BAR]

Go B20 and boost it when u get sick of it

[Touge Tom]

Or just spend 700 on a second hand nitrous kit from ebay. Only problem is it costs 90 to fill a 10 pound bottle. And depending how much you squirt that 90 dollars only lasts 10-30 seconds

[dougie_504]

IMO if you're going FI just boost whatever you have. You'll get decent power out of most Honda engines :)

[kevibumz]

i'm not going to change the fly, and the clutch is already an exedy organic clutch. i will need a cpu and tune obviously, exhaust and turbo kit together with cpu i have already got a quote for 4k. got a mate who is a mechanic who can gimme a hand.
then again, b20 would be nice. lol but everything is pricey i know. i will keep saving.
cheers yall

[tiah313]

wht about a engine swap like b18c =D or H22

[kevibumz]

b18c would be nice. but i can get a b20 done for that price...and h22 id have to do h2b....

[EK1.6LCIV]

simple formula that many choose to live by; H=NA

youre effectively adding more points of failure (oil leaks, mechanical faults, electrical gremlins, the need for two tunes), limiting your selling market, increasing your insurance premium, attracting more attention, amongst other negatives...

this company makes efficient engines which outlast most of their competitors, maintain very good value over time & for me have worked without faults other than routine maintenance

Im biased, I just like it when things work, can have the shit kicked out of them and still hum along past 300,000ks on the stock motor and transmission