CU2 Audio upgrade desperately needed for Accord Euro CU2 Luxury

[WarrenM]

I bought a 2009 Euro Luxury a couple of weeks ago, assuming that the 10-speaker audio system would actually sound like music. My last car was a Mazda 6 Luxury Sports and its Bose system sounded good enough that I didn't feel the need to upgrade anything.

The sound system in the Euro Luxury leaves a lot to be desired. Can anyone tell me if the fundamental problem with it is the front end or the speakers? I hope it's the speakers, since that would mean that replacing the splits at the front with real splits, and replacing the centre speaker with a good quality 2-way would probably make me happy.

My musical taste tend toward intense classical - piano, solo guitar, concertos, large orchestral works, choral works, with the occasional pop, folk, jazz or rock thrown in for good measure.

If anyone has gone through this process, what did you end up using?

I've seen Hertz HSK 165 splits for crazy cheap on eBay - way way cheaper than other quality splits I have looked at - they had some really great reviews but I don't know how they would fare in my system and how good they are for classical. I don't know how beefy the amplification is in the Euro Lux system and I don't know how much these splits need to drive them properly.

What would be appropriate for the centre speaker, which looks like it is only 4"? Should I be putting a small coax in there? Or maybe just disconnect it altogether!

Should I bother replacing the speakers in the rear doors? Hertz DCX 165 coax if at all?

I assume there is no point in replacing the pair of full-range speakers in the rear shelf.

Is the shelf-mounted sub good enough to keep? - should I be looking to replace it, leave it as is, or box it more effectively?

Help please...

[NightKids]

If speakers are the problem then I recommend Polk Audio DB651 or JL Audio C2-650. You should be pretty satisfied with either one of those speakers.

[Simonnn]

I think the car you have is a CU2 euro, not a CL9. maybe clarify that first so people can better help you out!

[WarrenM]

I think the car you have is a CU2 euro, not a CL9. maybe clarify that first so people can better help you out!

Correct! CU2. Sorry for the confusion - I'll correct the original message

[JustRight]

Hi there WarrenM,

You might find these threads of mine from last year of interest:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?137735-CU2-Accord-Euro-Focal-speaker-upgrade

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?139260-CU2-Accord-Euro-Digital-Signal-Processor-upgrade

This may be overkill for what you are wanting to spend, but if you are looking for a system to play largely Classical or Orchestral music styles then the standard Panasonic based system in the Accord CU2 leaves a LOT to be desired. I personally found the standard system to be far too bright and harsh and completely lacked warmth and decent bass. The equalisation is just all wrong, at least to my ears, and the factory all plastic speakers are just rubbish. In fact many users, including many here on OzHonda have had the standard speakers fail, many times!

My system is now based on all Focal speakers and 4 channel amplifier, with a Rockford Fosgate DSP to 'fix' the dreadful EQ of the standard system. I did not want to go the the extent of changing the factory Head Unit, and there are little to no options in that area anyway. It's a big job, but the result is well worth it if you love your music.

Cheers, and good luck.

[Fredoops]

Correct! CU2. Sorry for the confusion - I'll correct the original message

put a [CU2] in front of the thread title will clear it up.

[WarrenM]

Hi there WarrenM,

You might find these threads of mine from last year of interest:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?137735-CU2-Accord-Euro-Focal-speaker-upgrade

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?139260-CU2-Accord-Euro-Digital-Signal-Processor-upgrade

This may be overkill for what you are wanting to spend, but if you are looking for a system to play largely Classical or Orchestral music styles then the standard Panasonic based system in the Accord CU2 leaves a LOT to be desired. I personally found the standard system to be far too bright and harsh and completely lacked warmth and decent bass. The equalisation is just all wrong, at least to my ears, and the factory all plastic speakers are just rubbish. In fact many users, including many here on OzHonda have had the standard speakers fail, many times!

My system is now based on all Focal speakers and 4 channel amplifier, with a Rockford Fosgate DSP to 'fix' the dreadful EQ of the standard system. I did not want to go the the extent of changing the factory Head Unit, and there are little to no options in that area anyway. It's a big job, but the result is well worth it if you love your music.

Cheers, and good luck.

Thanks for that. Very helpful! The connection diagram is terrific!

I don't have your budget but I have decided to do it properly, at least to some extent.

Here is my initial plan:

I've bought a pair of superseded Hertz HSK 165 splits for the front, for $110 delivered (really) and unless I have a sudden change of heart I'm getting a pair of Infinity 652i coax speakers for the rear doors, at, I hope, $77 delivered and leaving the rear, although the more I think about it the more sense it makes to use 2 sets of superseded HSK 165s since they are so ridiculously cheap and a pair of the Infinity 6.5" coax speakers in the rear shelf. What do you think?

Given that I do not have anything like the money for a DSP and a $500+ amp, what are my options for amplification and for taming the treble and upper midrange? I have no idea what different car amps are like. You might laugh, cringe or throw up your hands in despair, but I saw something on eBay which may be worth a look (or may be worth avoiding at every turn). A Chinese "pseudo brand" of PowerVox is being sold on eBay by a few importers. As shonky as the ads are (they talk in music power or some other meaningless measurement) the specs are actually OK if not particularly spectacular: 140W RMS per channel (4 channels driven, probably at 10% THD) but even if this translates to 35W RMS at a reasonable distortion reading, it would drive my speakers at the volumes I listen. This sells for $86 delivered from one supplier, $155 from another. Is there any point in trying an amp like this or am I just throwing away money?

There are also 2nd hand name-brand amps on eBay which look OK.

When you finally replaced your sub, where/how did you mount the new one? Having already modified your environment substantially, was the sub a massive improvement or just a modest one?

BTW, in my plans, I will be sound-deadening the front doors (at least).

Cheers, Warren

[JustRight]

Thanks for that. Very helpful! The connection diagram is terrific!

I don't have your budget but I have decided to do it properly, at least to some extent.

Here is my initial plan:

I've bought a pair of superseded Hertz HSK 165 splits for the front, for $110 delivered (really) and unless I have a sudden change of heart I'm getting a pair of Infinity 652i coax speakers for the rear doors, at, I hope, $77 delivered and leaving the rear, although the more I think about it the more sense it makes to use 2 sets of superseded HSK 165s since they are so ridiculously cheap and a pair of the Infinity 6.5" coax speakers in the rear shelf. What do you think?

Given that I do not have anything like the money for a DSP and a $500+ amp, what are my options for amplification and for taming the treble and upper midrange? I have no idea what different car amps are like. You might laugh, cringe or throw up your hands in despair, but I saw something on eBay which may be worth a look (or may be worth avoiding at every turn). A Chinese "pseudo brand" of PowerVox is being sold on eBay by a few importers. As shonky as the ads are (they talk in music power or some other meaningless measurement) the specs are actually OK if not particularly spectacular: 140W RMS per channel (4 channels driven, probably at 10% THD) but even if this translates to 35W RMS at a reasonable distortion reading, it would drive my speakers at the volumes I listen. This sells for $86 delivered from one supplier, $155 from another. Is there any point in trying an amp like this or am I just throwing away money?

There are also 2nd hand name-brand amps on eBay which look OK.

When you finally replaced your sub, where/how did you mount the new one? Having already modified your environment substantially, was the sub a massive improvement or just a modest one?

BTW, in my plans, I will be sound-deadening the front doors (at least).

Cheers, Warren

Hi Warren,

I'm afraid I have never had any faith in the Audio hardware for sale on e-bay. Some of it might be genuine, particularly second hand items. New stuff however, even brand name, are more often than not fakes and copies that can be of very poor quality.

I understand however that with a tight budget these e-bay items seem very attractive. For the amplifier though, I would suggest that you at least have a look at what Jaycar are offering for a 4 channel amp. You may find that their prices are comparable, and you get local support as well. Adequately driving the speakers is the secret to a great sounding system, so try to get an amp that can deliver at least the 'nominal' rating for your speakers.

Controlling the awful equalisation in the CU2 though is a much bigger problem. With some component splits it is possible to attenuate the output to the tweeters via a switch on the crossover. If that is not possible then you can get an attenuator that can help reduce the tweeters output. Once again Jaycar should be able to help with this. To see what the equalisation curve on the standard system is like have a look at the images of my PDA running the Rockford Fosgate software in this link: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?139260-CU2-Accord-Euro-Digital-Signal-Processor-upgrade The red line shows the standard EQ. You can see that is adds 3 to 5db between about 1k to 3kHz, then drops back to flat until about 5kHz where it takes off again with greater than +10db from about 10kHz and upwards!! No wonder it sounds so harsh.

I ran the system in my car for a while with just the Focal speakers and the tweeters set to their maximum attenuation, and still I found the sound way too bright and harsh. All you can do is suck it and see. I decided to incorporate the DSP because I simply could not get the system to sound warm enough for my liking. Subsequently I also added a separate sub-woofer which certainly resolved any lack of bass.

The new sub is a powered enclosure from Focal called a BombA 27V1. This pre-built system comes with its own amp so I was able to drive all my component splits from the Focal 4 channel, and the sub looks after itself. I mounted it using special tie-down straps directly behind the rear seats. It still leaves plenty of space in the rest of the boot.

The performance improvement was massive! Way better bottom end. I was able to stop trying to over drive the components with bass, trying to get them to fill in the lower frequencies. If you can stretch to a subwoofer I would certainly recommend it. The factory sub is damn near useless, and once you fit new spilts etc you probably won't be able to hear it anyway.

Hope this helps,
Cheers.

[WarrenM]

Hi Warren,

I'm afraid I have never had any faith in the Audio hardware for sale on e-bay. Some of it might be genuine, particularly second hand items. New stuff however, even brand name, are more often than not fakes and copies that can be of very poor quality.


You are not the first person to say this to me. Hertz HSK 165s are apparently among the most common Chinese knock-offs around. I had a quick chat with the dealer who sold me these. They are indeed genuine, with Hertz-confirmed serial numbers. The current model has higher power handling as a result of a slightly different crossover, so old stock is being sold out by a couple of firms. Apart from checking serial numbers it is pretty difficult to tell the real ones from the knock-offs.


I understand however that with a tight budget these e-bay items seem very attractive. For the amplifier though, I would suggest that you at least have a look at what Jaycar are offering for a 4 channel amp. You may find that their prices are comparable, and you get local support as well. Adequately driving the speakers is the secret to a great sounding system, so try to get an amp that can deliver at least the 'nominal' rating for your speakers.


Controlling the awful equalisation in the CU2 though is a much bigger problem. With some component splits it is possible to attenuate the output to the tweeters via a switch on the crossover. If that is not possible then you can get an attenuator that can help reduce the tweeters output. Once again Jaycar should be able to help with this.

The HSK 165s have a +2/-2 adjustment on the tweeter. Sounds like that is nowhere near enough.


To see what the equalisation curve on the standard system is like have a look at the images of my PDA running the Rockford Fosgate software in this link: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?139260-CU2-Accord-Euro-Digital-Signal-Processor-upgrade The red line shows the standard EQ. You can see that is adds 3 to 5db between about 1k to 3kHz, then drops back to flat until about 5kHz where it takes off again with greater than +10db from about 10kHz and upwards!! No wonder it sounds so harsh.

It is hard to believe they have done such a crappy job!


I ran the system in my car for a while with just the Focal speakers and the tweeters set to their maximum attenuation, and still I found the sound way too bright and harsh. All you can do is suck it and see. I decided to incorporate the DSP because I simply could not get the system to sound warm enough for my liking.

I wonder whether there is such a thing as a poor man's DSP out there?


Subsequently I also added a separate sub-woofer which certainly resolved any lack of bass. The new sub is a powered enclosure from Focal called a BombA 27V1. This pre-built system comes with its own amp so I was able to drive all my component splits from the Focal 4 channel, and the sub looks after itself. I mounted it using special tie-down straps directly behind the rear seats. It still leaves plenty of space in the rest of the boot.

The performance improvement was massive! Way better bottom end. I was able to stop trying to over drive the components with bass, trying to get them to fill in the lower frequencies. If you can stretch to a subwoofer I would certainly recommend it. The factory sub is damn near useless, and once you fit new spilts etc you probably won't be able to hear it anyway.

Hope this helps,
Cheers.

I have space considerations as we will take our car touring, with a lot of luggage. I'm surprised there are not more high quality 8" subs out there. In spite of the obvious limitations mounting the sub in the same place as the existing one (i.e. open in the rear), I'd be very happy to find an 8" long-throw sub and drive it with a gutsy 2nd-hand amp.

I've taken a note out of your book and just bought a PAC SOEM-4 Line Output Converter on US eBay.

Thanks, Warren

[androo]

Warren have you received the HSK 165's yet? Can you send me the link to the seller? Thanks man! That's an awesome price! I was looking for some last year and was prepared to pay the $300+ everyone was asking for them!

[WarrenM]

Warren have you received the HSK 165's yet? Can you send me the link to the seller? Thanks man! That's an awesome price! I was looking for some last year and was prepared to pay the $300+ everyone was asking for them!
I expect them tomorrow or Monday. Once I have them, I shall verify for myself that they are genuine, with Hertz in Italy. Then I'll give you the link.

Cheers, Warren.

[WarrenM]

I wonder whether there is such a thing as a poor man's DSP out there?

There may be! I'm probably going to get the JL Audio DSP which I can get from the US for a little under $300 delivered - looks pretty good. There is a SoundStream DSP which is much cheaper but weighs more so costs a lot more to ship, and anyway looks like it is much less effective than the JL Audio.

I think I'm going to end up with a Kenwood 8" sub as a direct replacement for the existing free-air sub, but maybe there are some more musical subs out there that I don't know about. I have not found another sub so far that works well in a free air environment, and I really don't want to go the path of an enclosure at this stage. I plan to line the boot with mass loaded vinyl to cut out road surface noise and improve the efficiency of the sub.

Cheers, Warren

[JustRight]

Hi Warren,

That sounds like the go. There is nothing wrong with the JL Audio products. As you have seen from my thread, you really will need something to help sort out the EQ of the system.

I have used a number of free air subs over the years from manufacturers like Soundstream and Focal. An 8" in the parcel shelf should work just fine. Try to sound deaden and seal the parcel shelf as best you can.

Cheers.

[WarrenM]

Hi Warren,

That sounds like the go. There is nothing wrong with the JL Audio products. As you have seen from my thread, you really will need something to help sort out the EQ of the system.

I have used a number of free air subs over the years from manufacturers like Sondstream and Focal. An 8" in the parcel shelf should work just fine. Try to sound deaden and seal the parcel shelf as best you can.

Cheers.

I've been going over the JL product and I can't fathom how it is going to work. It will only work on the front and rear door speakers, and will eliminate the 5.1 environment - that looks messy. I'm looking at the Soundstream offering, which is 5.1 compatible, but does not seem to have the sort of radical equalisation needed. Oh me, oh my!

[WarrenM]

I've been going over the JL product and I can't fathom how it is going to work. It will only work on the front and rear door speakers, and will eliminate the 5.1 environment - that looks messy. I'm looking at the Soundstream offering, which is 5.1 compatible, but does not seem to have the sort of radical equalisation needed. Oh me, oh my!

The Fosgate Rockford units have been pulled from the market, pending release of the replacement 8-channel version in July for an expected US $700. The cheaper 5.1 version would have met my requirements I think, but it was still a lot more expensive than I wanted to go, and the more expensive version is being discounted in the one online shop I've found it available at about US$550 delivered which is definitely way more than I want to spend.

[GaDgeT-CRX]

Hey Warren, Ive got a brand new JBL MS-8 up for sale at the moment, not quite a 'poor mans' DSP, but has auto EQ, time alignment and 8 x 20W amp included. is on MEA at the mo http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums/index.php?/topic/561801-fs-vic-jbl-ms-8/ PM Me if interested

[WarrenM]

Hey Warren, Ive got a brand new JBL MS-8 up for sale at the moment, not quite a 'poor mans' DSP, but has auto EQ, time alignment and 8 x 20W amp included. is on MEA at the mo http://www.mobileelectronics.com.au/forums/index.php?/topic/561801-fs-vic-jbl-ms-8/ PM Me if interested

Thanks. Price is too high for me, but hopefully someone will see this and snap it up for the bargain it is.

[WarrenM]

How things change from day to day! Last night I won a spectacular mono block amplifier on eBay for $123 to use with whatever sub I'm going to buy. I really didn't expect anything like this, but I now have a Schneider SPA 6000A class-X amp which is stable to less than 1 Ohm and, even at 4 Ohms, is over 500W RMS (1350W RMS at 1 Ohm). I'm not sure what its original purchase price was, but I have seen some ads from a couple of years ago, asking $450 and $600 2nd-hand. I guess I don't need to concern myself about how efficient my prospective sub is - just how good it sounds and how deep it goes.

[WarrenM]

Warren have you received the HSK 165's yet? Can you send me the link to the seller? Thanks man! That's an awesome price! I was looking for some last year and was prepared to pay the $300+ everyone was asking for them!

I received my first pair of HSK 165s today (I've ordered a 2nd pair for the rear doors). They look real enough - finished very well - crossovers have all Hertz-designated components etc. I have emailed Elettromedia in Italy with my serial number, to hopefully verify that they are legitimate. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get confirmation, at which point I'll let you know where you can get them.

[JustRight]

Hi Warren,

Great win on the Schneider amp, that's awesome at that price. All you need to do is figure out where to mount it :)

I also read your comments on the CU2's audio system in the thread on the new facelift CU2.


On the other hand, its sound system is appalling! Do they really expect people to go on long rides being tormented by gritty treble-heavy, bass-light pseudo-music?


Absolutely spot on. Honda have the nerve to call it a 'Premium' sound system, but when I got to listen to mine properly after taking delivery of the car I could not believe what a harsh sound it produced. Just dreadful.

All fixed now though, and you are well on the way to 'fixing' yours as well.

Cheers.

[WarrenM]

Hi there WarrenM,

You might find these threads of mine from last year of interest:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?137735-CU2-Accord-Euro-Focal-speaker-upgrade

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?139260-CU2-Accord-Euro-Digital-Signal-Processor-upgrade

This may be overkill for what you are wanting to spend, but if you are looking for a system to play largely Classical or Orchestral music styles then the standard Panasonic based system in the Accord CU2 leaves a LOT to be desired. I personally found the standard system to be far too bright and harsh and completely lacked warmth and decent bass. The equalisation is just all wrong, at least to my ears, and the factory all plastic speakers are just rubbish. In fact many users, including many here on OzHonda have had the standard speakers fail, many times!

My system is now based on all Focal speakers and 4 channel amplifier, with a Rockford Fosgate DSP to 'fix' the dreadful EQ of the standard system. I did not want to go the the extent of changing the factory Head Unit, and there are little to no options in that area anyway. It's a big job, but the result is well worth it if you love your music.

Cheers, and good luck.

Hi JustRight.

Thanks for all your input. I've gone from thinking I can get by with under $1000 of hi-fi upgrade, to already having paid more than that in seriously discounted hardware before I've even started, and I still have 3 speakers a sub and an amp to go, plus sound deadening, cables, etc. Not to mention the services of a professional installer, since I can guarantee that I will destroy the car if I try to do the installation.

Now that I have gone into way-over-the-top mode, may I pick your brains for some of the details of your installation:

Have you needed to upgrade your power connections from the battery? Did you need to drill through the firewall to allow larger cables through? Were the holes in the doors sufficient to get cables into them, or were the cables already of high enough quality and calibre for your focal speakers?

How deep does your sub go? How deep do the focal splits go? Where did you set the cross-over between them - did you just allow the focal splits to naturally bottom out and let the sub take over, or did you fade out the splits somewhere above their lower limit?

Finally, have you needed to beef up your battery? With the massive amp I already have for my sub and the additional amp I'm about to get for my splits, plus the amp built into the JBL MS-8 DSP, I suspect that I'll be pushing the limits of a standard battery.

Cheers, Warren

[JustRight]

Howdy Warren,

It's alarming how the costs build up isn't it. I found exactly the same thing, when after spending what I thought was my budget on the Focal 165VR's and amplifier, to then realise I needed a DSP and a decent sub-woofer.

Anyway, it all worked out well. So, on to your questions:



Have you needed to upgrade your power connections from the battery? Did you need to drill through the firewall to allow larger cables through? Were the holes in the doors sufficient to get cables into them, or were the cables already of high enough quality and calibre for your focal speakers?Yes I did indeed upgrade the power lines from the battery. I ran an additional 4AWG power cable from the + terminal to the input side of the standard fuse box. I clamped and soldered the additional cable to the factory connections. I then ran a 4AWG cable from the distrubution side of the fuse box, next to where the input from the battery comes in, to a large amperage circuit breaker which I mounter on the upper firewall on the passenger side. The 4AWG cable then crosses to the drivers side along the firewall and enters the car through the large rubber wiring loom seal just under the brake booster.

This is the only reasonably accessible place to pass the power cable through the firewall. From under the drivers dash you can get good access to the rear of the rubber wiring seal. I simply cut a small hole in the rubber and pushed the cable through. A quick squirt with some Silicone lubricant and I was able to pull the cable through the hole easily.

I then ran the cable along the drivers side of the car under the door sill trims. There is plenty of room under there. I also used black flexible plastic conduit for the entire length of the power cable right into the boot. The cable then makes its way up under the rear seat and up the drivers side of the boot to the parcel shelf where I have mounted the Focal Solid4 ampilifier.

The earth cable is also a 4AWG cable that goes from the amp, across the back of the boot to the passenger side where it is bolted to the cars frame. At the battery end I also replaced the short battery to body earth strap with one I made up also of 4AWG cable. I believe that the standard earth strap is only 8AWG, and so we need to also beef up the current return point as well.

When I eventually added the Focal powered sub-woofer I simply added a 'T' piece connecter to the 4AWG cables in the boot for both the power and earth and then connected them via an Anderson plug to the sub. The Anderson plug allows the sub to be easily and safely removed whilst being able to tolerate the kind of amperages that these amplifiers can require.

As for the speaker cables themselves, I simply used the original factory wiring. It is entirely adequate for the amount of power we are driving to the component speakers. I have had no issues with that at all.


How deep does your sub go? How deep do the focal splits go? Where did you set the cross-over between them - did you just allow the focal splits to naturally bottom out and let the sub take over, or did you fade out the splits somewhere above their lower limit?
I set the DSP to run the sub from 20 to 100Hz with a 24db/Octave slope. I effectively allow the 165VR's to run down to their rated bottom end. The 165VR's are rated to 70Hz so I have set the DSP to roll them off from 80Hz, also with a 24db slope. This seems to work pretty well, and I have not found myself wanting to 'fiddle' with it for some time. Initially I had set the 165VR's to roll off a lot higer, but I found that that seemed to leave a 'hole' in the sound around that area, so by running them down a bit lower the car seems to fill nicely with that mid-bass with the sub filling in the very bottom end.


Finally, have you needed to beef up your battery? With the massive amp I already have for my sub and the additional amp I'm about to get for my splits, plus the amp built into the JBL MS-8 DSP, I suspect that I'll be pushing the limits of a standard battery.
So, I see that a DSP has appeared in the mix. :) Have you been able to get the MS8 at a good price?
Anyway, no, I did not do anything about my battery, although I don't think I am drawing anywhere near the power that you might with the Schnieder Mono Block etc. However, I do take a few precautions, for example, I never play the stereo without the engine running.

All in all this worked out very well. I have had no real issues with alternator whine or ground loops etc. Although I do get a very slight hiss when the system is powered on but there is no signal. It's very minor and inaudible once any music is playing or the car is in motion.

Hope this little essay helps. You can use some of the pictures on my original threads to see just where I mounted the crossovers in the doors etc, etc.

All the best,
Trevor

[WarrenM]

Warren have you received the HSK 165's yet? Can you send me the link to the seller? Thanks man! That's an awesome price! I was looking for some last year and was prepared to pay the $300+ everyone was asking for them!

I have just spoken with Elletromedia (Hertz manufacturers) in Italy. These HSK 165 speakers are fake. Bugger!

They are very good to excellent fakes, and sound pretty good according to the firm, but of course there is no quality control. I shall be letting Elletromedia know where they came from. I shall not be putting that information on the forum. Sorry.

Please note that current model HSK 165s are, to the company's knowledge, unable to be faked, due to the much more complex and therefore expensive machining involved. If you find current model HSK 165s at a bargain price, they are almost certainly legit (or stolen I guess).

Cheers,
Warren

[androo]

Damn!!!! Bad luck Warren. Will you be returning them or keeping them? Is the seller unaware or do you think they're passing them off as real even though they know its fake? I'm shopping for speakers at the moment. I'll let you know if I come accross any awesome deals!

[WarrenM]

Damn!!!! Bad luck Warren. Will you be returning them or keeping them? Is the seller unaware or do you think they're passing them off as real even though they know its fake? I'm shopping for speakers at the moment. I'll let you know if I come accross any awesome deals!
Right now I'm trying to convince them to replace the speakers with the current model, which is apparently uneconomical to fake. They have not got back to me yet.

I suspect that they knew or at least suspected they were fake but did their best to ignore their suspicions. They have offered a full refund, but that is not really sufficient in my opinion, especially since I had arranged for the work to be started next week (not to mention the half hour I spent on the phone to Italy last night).

I've decided one way or another to go with real HSK 165s - there are current model units going for $175 per pair from Singapore or Malaysia - the real speakers.

[JustRight]

I have just spoken with Elletromedia (Hertz manufacturers) in Italy. These HSK 165 speakers are fake. Bugger!

They are very good to excellent fakes, and sound pretty good according to the firm, but of course there is no quality control. I shall be letting Elletromedia know where they came from. I shall not be putting that information on the forum. Sorry.

Cheers,
Warren

That's a great shame Warren. Good old e-Bay. I hope you have some success in getting a decent refund and/or replacements.

Good Luck.

[arverson]

another case of 'too good to be true'. stop wasting time & visit the guys at fhrx. theyve got plenty of good gear & theyre all AUTHENTIC! probably one of, if not, the best customer service in australia in regards to audio too.

www.fhrxstudios.com.au

as per your MEA thread, they can help you find a sub that plays down LOW & fit in a small enclosure too.. of course expect a compromise somewhere if the budget isnt much.

ill repeat, www.fhrxstudios.com.au

:)

[WarrenM]

another case of 'too good to be true'. stop wasting time & visit the guys at fhrx. theyve got plenty of good gear & theyre all AUTHENTIC! probably one of, if not, the best customer service in australia in regards to audio too.

www.fhrxstudios.com.au

as per your MEA thread, they can help you find a sub that plays down LOW & fit in a small enclosure too.. of course expect a compromise somewhere if the budget isnt much.

ill repeat, www.fhrxstudios.com.au

:)

I know they are good - they are just far from me - that's all.

[arverson]

if you're from bronte, then caringbah really isnt that far...

they can send you equipment if thats more convenient for you - usually free of charge too. id know, im from melb & ive dealt with em many times.

no reason not to at least have a chat with em, but hey thats up to you.

[WarrenM]

Howdy Warren,

It's alarming how the costs build up isn't it. I found exactly the same thing, when after spending what I thought was my budget on the Focal 165VR's and amplifier, to then realise I needed a DSP and a decent sub-woofer.

Anyway, it all worked out well. So, on to your questions:


Here's another one Trevor:

Do you know the size of the centre speaker - is it 4" or 3.5" (or something else)?

Regards,
Warren

[Fredoops]

You know if you listen mostly to Jazz and classic.... a DOOF DOOF sub wont help you... it'll make it worse if anything.

[WarrenM]

if you're from bronte, then caringbah really isnt that far...

they can send you equipment if thats more convenient for you - usually free of charge too. id know, im from melb & ive dealt with em many times.

no reason not to at least have a chat with em, but hey thats up to you.

I've chatted with them a couple of times, and they have been very helpful. Their website is also a wealth of valuable information.

But for me, Juerg (Auto Acoustics) is much easier to get to, and I know the quality of his work is up there with the best. He's looked at my car, and we've discussed various options.

He is equally dubious about stuff you get off eBay, but we agree to disagree on that point. My experience (not seriously affected by this incident I have to say) is that careful buying on eBay is exceptionally good value. My home hi-fi system is about 75% purchased on eBay, which has allowed me to build a sound system I could never possibly have afforded at prices anywhere near retail. It's replacement value would be at least 4 times what I have paid for it.

With car hi-fi, the players are a little less scrupulous, but the benefits of buying well are the same.

I'm confident that I will get my money back for the fake speakers (I've learnt that you can trust some dealers to do right by you, even if you cannot be sure of their ethics), and I have already ordered current model HSK 165s from an equally dubious source overseas ("crazy!" I hear you say). In fact I'm confident that I'm getting real HSK 165s, since I've had a chat with the product distribution manager of Elettromedia, and he is absolutely confident that the current model has not been faked, as the tooling required is simply too complex to make it worthwhile. He confirmed that again with me just a few minutes ago. He says changes in distributors in several countries means there is quite a lot of "dead" stock in the hands of previous distributors, which is the main source of cheap non-fake Hertz speakers.

After discussions with Juerg, I've decided to use Infinity coax 6.5" speakers in the back doors rather than cut holes for the Hertz tweeters. That means I'll end up with a spare set of current model HSK 165s which I expect to sell.

I still have two pairs of Infinity 6.5" coax speakers to buy, an Infinity 4" coax speaker (I think) for the centre, and my sub (I've decided on a 12" sub, but I still have not decided which - most of the subs out there are not designed to play music).

Once that is done, I'm ready to hand the job over to Juerg.

[WarrenM]

You know if you listen mostly to Jazz and classic.... a DOOF DOOF sub wont help you... it'll make it worse if anything.

Do you have any personal recommendations? I'm looking for a sub which sounds like a piano when it reproduces a piano playing C1 (C below low-C) and sounds like a double bass when it reproduces a double bass playing the same note (my little Rel T3 at home does it pretty well).

[JustRight]

Here's another one Trevor:

Do you know the size of the centre speaker - is it 4" or 3.5" (or something else)?

Regards,
Warren

Hmmm, not sure. I think it is a 4" single cone. I did not replace mine because the performance and staging of the Focal 165VR's was so good. I would recommend that you also wait until you have heard your system. When using a DSP that supports time differences like the Rockford 360.2 or the JBL MS8 I think that the role of a centre speaker is somewhat diminished.

Also, in my case I did not have enough amplification channels to be able to drive a centre speaker, and so I simply left it connected to the factory amplifier. It plays but is effectively inaudible due to the much greater SPL of the Focal system.

As for musical subwoofers (I admit being biased here) you should at least consider either the Focal 27V2 (11") or the 33V2 (13"). Here is a quote from the Focal web site

27V2 - "This is the thinking man's subwoofer. Not for bassheads, this is for people who appreciate music reproduced accurately."

33V2 - "This is the thinking man's subwoofer. Not for bassheads, this is for people who appreciate music reproduced accurately. The 33V2 13-inch subwoofer plays lower and louder than the 11-inch 27V2. This is a good match for larger front speakers, 6.5" and above. Set your crossover at 80 to 90 Hz for a seamless transition from sub to mid."

Check them out here:
http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/subwoofers.html
http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/pdfs/polyglass_27V2.pdf
http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/pdfs/polyglass_33V2.pdf

Cheers,
Trevor

[WarrenM]

Hmmm, not sure. I think it is a 4" single cone. I did not replace mine because the performance and staging of the Focal 165VR's was so good. I would recommend that you also wait until you have heard your system. When using a DSP that supports time differences like the Rockford 360.2 or the JBL MS8 I think that the role of a centre speaker is somewhat diminished.

Also, in my case I did not have enough amplification channels to be able to drive a centre speaker, and so I simply left it connected to the factory amplifier. It plays but is effectively inaudible due to the much greater SPL of the Focal system.

Surprisingly, users of the MS-8 have said that adding in the centre channel provided remarkable and unexpected additional depth in the sound stage. That's why I'm looking to replacing the existing one with a real one.


As for musical subwoofers (I admit being biased here) you should at least consider either the Focal 27V2 (11") or the 33V2 (13"). Here is a quote from the Focal web site

27V2 - "This is the thinking man's subwoofer. Not for bassheads, this is for people who appreciate music reproduced accurately."

33V2 - "This is the thinking man's subwoofer. Not for bassheads, this is for people who appreciate music reproduced accurately. The 33V2 13-inch subwoofer plays lower and louder than the 11-inch 27V2. This is a good match for larger front speakers, 6.5" and above. Set your crossover at 80 to 90 Hz for a seamless transition from sub to mid."

Check them out here:
http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/subwoofers.html
http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/pdfs/polyglass_27V2.pdf
http://www.focalaustralia.com.au/pdfs/polyglass_33V2.pdf

Cheers,
Trevor

Thanks Trevor. Looking into them.

[WarrenM]

Right now I'm trying to convince them to replace the speakers with the current model, which is apparently uneconomical to fake. They have not got back to me yet.
The firm reassured me that I would get a full refund but that I needed to return the speakers, so that they could be sent to Elettromedia. I sent them back and informed Elettromedia of all the details. The speakers should have got to the dealer today.


I've decided one way or another to go with real HSK 165s - there are current model units going for $175 per pair from Singapore or Malaysia - the real speakers.

I bought two pairs of the current model Hertz HSK 165 from a company in Malaysia, after further reassurance from Elettromedia that they are not going to be fake. The speakers arrived today and certainly look the goods. None of the tell-tale issues of the previous pairs are evident: These ones have clearly displayed individual serial numbers, no errors in the English documentation, etc.

On Juerg's recommendation, I'm only using splits in the front, so I have a spare pair of current model Hertz HSK 165s for sale.

On the weekend I bought a brand new 10-year-old sub on eBay. It is a Phase Linear HD-12 12" sub. These were designed in the US and built in the McIntosh speaker factory in Italy between 1998 and 2002. Phase Linear at the time was the audiophile quality premium-priced car-audio brand of its then parent company which also had the Jensen and Audiovox brands (not to mention McIntosh and AR in the prestige home audio market).

On the weekend I bought discontinued Infinity 652i coax speakers for the rear doors and rear shelf and 452" coax speaker for the front shelf centre.

And I picked up a 3.5 Farad stiffening capacitor for very cheap (actually cheaper than I expected to pay for a 1 Farad cap).

So here is my barrage of hardware in preparation for installation:

6.5" Hertz HSK 651 current model 2-way splits for front doors
6.5" Infinity 652i discontinued 2-way coax for the rear doors
6.5" Infinity 652i discontinued 2-way coax for the rear shelf
4" Infinity 452i discontinued 2-way coax for the centre (bought as a pair of course)
12" Phase Linear long-discontinued HD-12 subwoofer
Alpine MRV-F405 discontinued 4-channel amp - 40W RMS/Channel
Schneider 6000x discontinued monoblock amp - 350W RMS/Channel
JBL MS-8 electronic 8-channel DSP with inbuilt 8-channel amp
SSL CAP350 3.5 Farad Stiffening Cap

[JustRight]

A very nice collection of goodies Warren.

It will be very interesting to see how your installer goes in getting it all hooked up, particularly where they choose to mount the amplifiers etc. The real winner in that list is the JBL MS8. Without a DSP to 'fix' the standard systems dreadful EQ the rest would be just a waste.

Cheers.

[WarrenM]

A very nice collection of goodies Warren.

It will be very interesting to see how your installer goes in getting it all hooked up, particularly where they choose to mount the amplifiers etc. The real winner in that list is the JBL MS8. Without a DSP to 'fix' the standard systems dreadful EQ the rest would be just a waste.

Cheers.

Juerg has been installing amps into cars for a long time. He installed a sound system into my Toyota Lexcen (rebadged Commodore) back in 1993 so he has had a lot of years across a lot of cars, finding innovative ways to fit components into crevices.

This will be his first system with the JBL MS-8 DSP - he has done quite a lot of installations with the Alpine DSP which is just a smidgen less sophisticated. My MS-8 is somewhere in the bowels of Australia Post. Hopefully it will be in my hands tomorrow.

The Schneider mono amp arrived today. I thought it would be larger - it is about the size of a ream of photocopy paper - weighs more than a whole box of the stuff though.

I was unsure of the Phase Linear sub, but Juerg says he put Phase Linear speakers into his 200B and, at the time, considered them among the best money could buy. He is certain the sub will be great. I ended up with two of them, so I guess I'll be selling one of those too.

[arverson]

nice progress. hopefully itll keep you happy enough for years and you wont feel the need to upgrade later. getting bit by the bug hurts.. and you seem to have a passion for home hi-fi too soooo.. good luck lol

[WarrenM]

nice progress. hopefully itll keep you happy enough for years and you wont feel the need to upgrade later. getting bit by the bug hurts.. and you seem to have a passion for home hi-fi too soooo.. good luck lol

I tend to upgrade my music system in occasional manic spurts. It tends to be pretty static. And I always buy below the market. My turntable system has cost me about $4000 which is more than most people spend on their entire hi-fi, but replacing it with an equivalent sound, new, would cost more like $20,000. I'm unlikely to make changes to it for a long long time. I take the same attitude to my car hi-fi. Once it is satisfying, it will always be satisfying (unless it blows up), so it is not going to be upgraded for the latest and greatest.

I never changed the sound system in my last car (the Bose 5.1 system in the Mazda 6 Luxury Sports), because it was not unpleasant - just not special. So, in a perverse way, I should be thankful that Honda did such a shocking job of the sound system in the Euro Luxury, that it forced my hand.

Now that I've committed to doing a real hi-fi job on the car, I'm really looking forward to it - I'm in the middle of a very exciting adventure. But once it is done, it will be done, probably for the life of the car. The only thing I will probably continue to do over time is improve the sound-deadening of the car, to block more and more road noise.

[Fredoops]

I tend to upgrade my music system in occasional manic spurts. It tends to be pretty static. And I always buy below the market. My turntable system has cost me about $4000 which is more than most people spend on their entire hi-fi, but replacing it with an equivalent sound, new, would cost more like $20,000. I'm unlikely to make changes to it for a long long time. I take the same attitude to my car hi-fi. Once it is satisfying, it will always be satisfying (unless it blows up), so it is not going to be upgraded for the latest and greatest.

I never changed the sound system in my last car (the Bose 5.1 system in the Mazda 6 Luxury Sports), because it was not unpleasant - just not special. So, in a perverse way, I should be thankful that Honda did such a shocking job of the sound system in the Euro Luxury, that it forced my hand.

Now that I've committed to doing a real hi-fi job on the car, I'm really looking forward to it - I'm in the middle of a very exciting adventure. But once it is done, it will be done, probably for the life of the car. The only thing I will probably continue to do over time is improve the sound-deadening of the car, to block more and more road noise.

Even that, the Bose 5.1 in the Mazda >>>>>>> Honda's panasonic system.
I guess thats where honda did the cost cutting.

[Vapochilled]

Hello guys!

Sorry I need to bring this thread back to life and wait that ... hopefully... one of you masters can hint me with something.
I'm from Europe, I have the Honda Accord Cu2 == similar == to Acura TSX I believe. The car is the 2008 version onwards.

1. I've upgraded all my speakers to Focal (all the 6 speakers: front, rear doors and rear shelter)
2. The front doors are the ones with tweeters / crossovers - The most entry focal level but still nice
3. I've upgraded my SUB shelter to JL Audio 8W3v3
4. I've applied Dynamat all over the shelter + some sound foam - still a lot of rattles :(
5. Since the Head Unit only sends 1Pre-Amp (Left / Right) + Data (?!?!) to the OEM Amp, there is no way to get the signal before amplified.
6. Additional AMP added: FD 4.350
7. The above AMP support high signal inputs. Thefore, I've connected the OEM AMP OUTs of Front speakers + SUB out to the FD4.350 IN's
8. The FD 4.350 is know for low voltage usage. No battery power cable was added. Instead I've re-used the OEM AMp Power and split to the Focal AMp
9. System worked flawless for 1 year. Suddenly died / sound is fuzzy / poor quality when raised


Debug:
10. Removed the Focal AMP. Other speakers seem to work (the ones not connected to Focal AMP)
11. FOcal AMP is working. Tested in other vehicle
12. Without doing anything even the speakers connected to OEM AMP started to make noise.
13. Even with low volume, if I increase the SUB from -6 to +6 (even without any SUB connected - because remember that only rear speakers + shelter are on) the sound goes like fully scratched
14. So, Focal is not there, therefore, SUB and front speakers are not connected at all. But.. messing in the head unit with Bass and SUB levels scratch the sound of the normal speakers?
15. I left the car in this state - my grandmother is in the hospital - heart issues - Suddenly this week, the sound seems ok again on those speakers! I can mess with levels of bass and SUB sound looks ok on rear speakers.
16. Note that Focal AMP is still of. I left the car only with rear door speakers connected. Something its ok... sometimes its not - :humf:\

Questions:
15. Is it the Head Unit damaged ?
16. I already got a spare OEM AMP from a friend. I will try to swap it. What do you think?
17. I don't think its a fuse problem or so, because I ALWAYS had sound. Just, either its ok, or sounds bad. So, I don't think its a fuse topic. I needs to be 15. or 16. topic.
18. I got a Audison 8.9 Prima Sound (8 channels) + DSP . This will work as amp and DSP. Its pretty small and it was an awesome price: 399. That's also why I haven't touched the car. Waiting to have time to do it.
19. Audison Bit 8.9 supports high input levels. Should I use again the outputs of the OEM amp and then use the DSP also of the Bit 8.9 to clean as much as possible the poor OEM quality ? This audison doesn't even have RCAs.... ! Its really for these cases.
20. Should I pass a cable from battery + Firewall to the rear for the amp?
21. Where do you connect the negative (earth) ? Do you scratch the metal in the trunk and place it there?
22. What should I do with the JL Sub? The shelter rattles even in dry bass house music or jazz. I already applied the dynamat. This sub was also a mistake. I believe this is not a Airfree Sub for our trunk metal shelter.
23. I was trying to avoid place a SUB in the trunk because I like to have space for the bike or IKEA furniture :) What if I change the shelter speakers by 2x 16cm woofers and sell the JL ?
24. Or, what if I try to apply some foam box around the JL to try to create a small box?
25. Or what if I just quit the JL, sell it, keep the speakers and place under seat Subwoofers like the new Alpine V80 ?


Thank you all!
Waiting for you inputs