Double wishbone vs MacPherson strut.

[Mikecivic78]

I'm interested in this topic. I've done a bit of research and I've found this info to be of some use:

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/blogs/michaeldelaney/153-double-wishbone-vs-macpherson-strut-i-basics.html
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/blogs/michaeldelaney/154-double-wishbone-vs-macpherson-strut-ii-compared.html
http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension.php

What are your views on this topic?

Mike

[Eskimo_firefighter]

doublewishbone ---> macpherson strut. i wish the ep3 dc5 came with double wishbone at the front, i believe that its a superior suspension setup. but then again the new fd2r has the same suspension setup and its tearing r34gtr and rx7 at suzuka curcuits. i guess to make use of macpherson strut you must go great lengths into tuning to be able to make it shine.

[vtecing]

My understanding is that double wishbone is good for maintaining camber angle through heavy cornering due to multiple mounting points making it very rigid. Macpherson has less componants which means its more light weight and more comfortable.

[Mikecivic78]

Most production cars use MacPherson struts. It's cheaper and more space-saving for manufacturers to do this. EK/EG/DC all have double wishbone. Props to Honda for not cheaping out.

Double wishbone is more complicated/expensive and is used in racing cars, incl. F1.

[Mikecivic78]

My understanding is that double wishbone is good for maintaining camber angle through heavy cornering due to multiple mounting points making it very rigid. Macpherson has less componants which means its more light weight and more comfortable.

That's a good basic summary of some true points.

[mugen_ctr]

double wish bone = much better suspension geometry, on the track and for normal everyday driving :D

[Eskimo_firefighter]

yeah suspension geometry is probably the main thing, lowering a car with macpherson struts can be detrimental on ride quality and handling due to the tie rod end position.

[Bludger]

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?116320-Honda-suspension-comparison.&highlight=suspension

The 90's were Honda's glory day, producing double wishbone on most models where all other manufacturers were already cheaping out on the struts.

this is massive generalisation though.

[chargeR]

Yep as above, unequal length double wishbone as used on the front of most 90s Hondas is superior in just about every respect except for cost, complexity and space efficiency. It doesn't help that the DC5 and it's variants have one of the worst McPherson strut designs around with terrible bump steer and various other issues. Many of these problems have been at least partially corrected by Honda on more recent cars such as the FD2R.

[nd55]

> The 90's were Honda's glory day, producing double wishbone on most models where all other manufacturers were already cheaping out on the struts.

Mr Honda was still alive and designing cars.

Sadly, the bean counters have taken over.

[Mikecivic78]

Soichiro Honda died in 1991, so he wasn't really around in the 90s.

[gumus89]

Sounds like the perfect opportunity to say... Shut Up! :D

[nd55]

Last car Mr Honda penned was the Beat. Beat production finished 1996.

Wishbone suspension civics, especially EGs & EKs, were produced on tooling laid out prior to 1990. Production finished 2001.

Ditto NSX, legend, accord and prelude.

[Mikecivic78]

Well it was good that his legacy prevailed, it seems until 2001.

[anjin]

What double wishbone in eg's. Wishbone in the top ok, but the bottom has a lower control arm and a radius rod.

[chargeR]

What double wishbone in eg's. Wishbone in the top ok, but the bottom has a lower control arm and a radius rod.

http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/data/2/3IMG_6314.jpg

And what would you say the functional difference between that design and an idealised one piece wishbone shaped LCA would be? Nothing. Honda probably just put it together that way (two piece with the rear facing "leg") it that way for packaging reasons and to provide greater fore after stability to moments produced by acceleration and braking. In fact I think it would be rare to find a car with your idealised triangle shaped wishbone lower control arm. Where is the wheel going to go when it turns? Straight into the lower control arm, which is why they tend to taper toward the outboard end.

Besides I have always thought of radius rods as coming from the front of the car and linking into the LCA from that direction, not the opposite as in the case of the EG and DC2.

[bennjamin]

It seems alot other Japanese performance vehicles are frontal macpherson and differing rear setups - as to are most euro cars. Only thing I can't think of is an preference to mass production and part interchangeability

[nd55]

Radius rods tend to have two degrees of freedom and don't support the vertical weight of the vehicle.

[Tai]

BMW and Evo's and WRX's uses macpherson.

It;'s jsut the DC5R was a terrible design and honda's first true Macpherson sports car setup.

[chargeR]

BMW and Evo's and WRX's uses macpherson.


Correlation does not imply causation.

[Tai]

Ok guy.

[chargeR]

Ok guy.

What I meant was that just because a handful of acceptably handling cars use a MacPherson strut suspension does not imply that the MacPherson strut is actually any good. There is a correlation between MacPherson struts and good handling on those cars but the suspension architecture is definitely not the reason they handle well.

[anjin]

http://www.ozhonda.com/gallery/data/2/3IMG_6314.jpg

And what would you say the functional difference between that design and an idealised one piece wishbone shaped LCA would be? Nothing. Honda probably just put it together that way (two piece with the rear facing "leg") it that way for packaging reasons and to provide greater fore after stability to moments produced by acceleration and braking. In fact I think it would be rare to find a car with your idealised triangle shaped wishbone lower control arm. Where is the wheel going to go when it turns? Straight into the lower control arm, which is why they tend to taper toward the outboard end.

Besides I have always thought of radius rods as coming from the front of the car and linking into the LCA from that direction, not the opposite as in the case of the EG and DC2.

Thanks for the information - I have worked on ED, EF and DC3 cars and they were all lca and front mount radius rods. Just went and checked an eg and wishbone it is. I learnt something today, which is great. Helps explain why several local eg's are so great on the track.
The really interesting thing is that the AH series (83 to 87) have a similar wishbone structure to the eg ( but with the torsion bar springs setup). What happened for the ed/ef models?

And the idealised triangle wishbone? Look at the tube frame cars.

[Bludger]

dc2 is same as EG dude.

double wishbone, not radius rod.

[bennjamin]

What I meant was that just because a handful of acceptably handling cars use a MacPherson strut suspension does not imply that the MacPherson strut is actually any good. There is a correlation between MacPherson struts and good handling on those cars but the suspension architecture is definitely not the reason they handle well.

What is the reason ?

I know for a fact most double wishbone models (ek Eg dc ) all handle like shit but with only "type r" variants being the exclusion.
I also know , that all macpherson strut hondas actually all show decent ( see jazz , fd Etc) handling with the type r variants being ofcourse the ultimate.

[chargeR]

Thanks for the information - I have worked on ED, EF and DC3 cars and they were all lca and front mount radius rods. Just went and checked an eg and wishbone it is. I learnt something today, which is great. Helps explain why several local eg's are so great on the track.
The really interesting thing is that the AH series (83 to 87) have a similar wishbone structure to the eg ( but with the torsion bar springs setup). What happened for the ed/ef models?

And the idealised triangle wishbone? Look at the tube frame cars.

No worries mate, sorry if I was a bit abrupt I thought you were taking the piss. I guess there is basically no functional difference between a DC2/EG etc. LCA and an EF/ED one with radius rod. Both just serve to resist right/left and fore/aft forces on the knuckle and a location to connect the spring/shock and the swaybar endlink. I am sure that some guy at Honda just decided they would rather use the space at the front of the car where the crossmember and radius rods are on an EF for something else.


What is the reason ?

I know for a fact most double wishbone models (ek Eg dc ) all handle like shit but with only "type r" variants being the exclusion.
I also know , that all macpherson strut hondas actually all show decent ( see jazz , fd Etc) handling with the type r variants being ofcourse the ultimate.

What exhaustive testing have you done to show that a Jazz handles better than an EG? I guess you could be right though, but you highlight the reason that BMWs, Evos etc. as mentioned by Tai above are considered good handling cars despite a suspension architecture disadvantage; They are well developed cars and in addition it takes more than good suspension architecture to make a car handle. You could put the nice S2000 in wheel double wishbone suspension design in a Lada Niva for example but if you only spend 5 minutes deciding on spring/bar/damper rates, make the front track 10" wider than the rear and leave the chassis with the rigidity of a moist rag then it will not be a good driving experience. Besides the thread is about comparing the two suspension architectures, not comparing different cars with innumerable differences.

[bennjamin]

Oh I agree , but my adage is to stir the pot - compared previously was Honda cars with double wishbone and hondas with macpherson - comparing stock to stock , later cars with machperson struts handle better (with exclusions being the type r models). This is stock for stock tho around town and around the track. People on here need to accept that a jazz 1.5 does handle better than a Eg or ek civic with a beaks tiebar and fluffy dice !

[Mikecivic78]

Oh I agree , but my adage is to stir the pot - compared previously was Honda cars with double wishbone and hondas with macpherson - comparing stock to stock , later cars with machperson struts handle better (with exclusions being the type r models). This is stock for stock tho around town and around the track. People on here need to accept that a jazz 1.5 does handle better than a Eg or ek civic with a beaks tiebar and fluffy dice !

You mentioned the 1.5 Jazz, but not the 1.3L. My father has a 2003 GD Jazz, and it handles like a boat when I compare it to my Em1 when it was stock. I guess the new 1.5 must have a new setup. My OP was about which is better for tuned, not stock cars. I really want to know the technical benefits of double wishbone setups vs Macpherson strut.

[mugen_ctr]

Oh I agree , but my adage is to stir the pot - compared previously was Honda cars with double wishbone and hondas with macpherson - comparing stock to stock , later cars with machperson struts handle better (with exclusions being the type r models). This is stock for stock tho around town and around the track. People on here need to accept that a jazz 1.5 does handle better than a Eg or ek civic with a beaks tiebar and fluffy dice !

in a way this proves a point that not all double wishbone design can be good, guess honda only designed this for comfort, not track, but still doesnt prove much to the world of engineering that double wish bone is bad..... most if not all race cars swear by double wish bone design, but this is coming from a race car

BUT at the end of the day, its not one component that make a car good or bad, its a combination, as many pointed out, mcpherson is simply, effective an cheap design, but been proven well on the roads, example S15, fantastic zippy cars ive driven, prbs one best road car handling ive driven around town, but with bit of boost can be tail happy.

[bennjamin]

You mentioned the 1.5 Jazz, but not the 1.3L. My father has a 2003 GD Jazz, and it handles like a boat when I compare it to my Em1 when it was stock. I guess the new 1.5 must have a new setup. My OP was about which is better for tuned, not stock cars. I really want to know the technical benefits of double wishbone setups vs Macpherson strut.

I refer a jazz GD3 (vti) vs EK1s and EG3s or EG4s or EG5s.....the jazz has fantastic low/medium speed handling compared to this lot ! Anyway back on topic.

[EG52NV]

I refer a jazz GD3 (vti) vs EK1s and EG3s or EG4s or EG5s.....the jazz has fantastic low/medium speed handling compared to this lot ! Anyway back on topic.

Man the handling of my GD3 is horrible! Even on Tien Stech springs it feels really unstable. (maybe I'm not driving it right) but I much preferred the handling on my ek1 which had DC2R springs.

[bennjamin]

We are going off topic - all i will say is a dead standard jazz is a fantastic nippy little car compared to a dead standard EK1 or EG3/EG4/EG5. Anyway !

[downinginc]

haha oh ben-la your such a stirrer <3

as for the answers:
I had an EK4, with EK1 springs and EK4 dampers. Ben-la knows why, we won't go into that. Independent
Suffice to say it was pretty stock still handled very well.

I now have a Swift Sport (I know not a honda) but very similar in design specifications. Macpherson
Its stock. Comes with Pedders from factory. Ride is quite a lot stiffer compared to base.

In my experience with them both, I'd honestly have to say there isn't that much difference at all.

The main difference that comes into play is in the R&D that was behind the choice of the manufacturer.
Honda spent YEARS perfecting the geometry behind the macpherson suspension, albeit to say its a bit high for my tastes, the type r's are amazing

ONLY bad thing so far, is no rear camber calibration... =(

[Bludger]

in a way this proves a point that not all double wishbone design can be good, guess honda only designed this for comfort, not track,
Mate, you completely contradicted yourself.
1 - you say this proves not all double wishbone setup is good.
2 - you then comment on why double wishbone setup is better. By saying but honda focused on comfort, not good handling. (in a tone which defends the double wishbone setup over the struts.)

[Glocker]

Oh I agree , but my adage is to stir the pot - compared previously was Honda cars with double wishbone and hondas with macpherson - comparing stock to stock , later cars with machperson struts handle better (with exclusions being the type r models). This is stock for stock tho around town and around the track. People on here need to accept that a jazz 1.5 does handle better than a Eg or ek civic with a beaks tiebar and fluffy dice !

If Macpherson struts were so good, why did Nissan switch to double wishbone design for the front of the GTR-32 (all other Skylines had macphersons with IRS)? Nissan's engineers probably realised with 1990s technology and tuning knowledge the torque steer that results from the 50% of RB26DETT power going to the front wheels will destroy the GTR32's legendary handling. That's probably why Honda decided to go with double wishbone to keep up with the 'big' power of the B-series engines.

Now with highly sophisticated, stiffer chassis and suspension components, Macpherson struts will probably come out on top as the cheaper option. In fact, some very quick hatchbacks have gone back to using torsion beam rear suspension, especially those from Europe! What I guess I'm saying is that all suspension types have their pros and cons, it's just a matter of matching them with the chassis, drivetrain and power.

[aaronng]

Man the handling of my GD3 is horrible! Even on Tien Stech springs it feels really unstable. (maybe I'm not driving it right) but I much preferred the handling on my ek1 which had DC2R springs.

Your damper is probably not working since it is out of the specified travel range. You need matching lowered dampers. Springs alone on stock shocks is a cheap way to achieve looks but the handling can become worse than stock!

[aaronng]

If Macpherson struts were so good, why did Nissan switch to double wishbone design for the front of the GTR-32 (all other Skylines had macphersons with IRS)? Nissan's engineers probably realised with 1990s technology and tuning knowledge the torque steer that results from the 50% of RB26DETT power going to the front wheels will destroy the GTR32's legendary handling. That's probably why Honda decided to go with double wishbone to keep up with the 'big' power of the B-series engines.
Because back then the complementary technologies to make Macpherson struts perform well were not available or it was too expensive to make changes to the chassis. Also, the R32 GTR was designed for Group A homologation, so if they wanted to go all out to win Group A races, then why not go all the way with double wishbone suspension?. R32 also wanted to match the Porsche 959, so why skimp on Macpherson strut and gain negative stigma on being a "regular" car.



Now with highly sophisticated, stiffer chassis and suspension components, Macpherson struts will probably come out on top as the cheaper option. In fact, some very quick hatchbacks have gone back to using torsion beam rear suspension, especially those from Europe! What I guess I'm saying is that all suspension types have their pros and cons, it's just a matter of matching them with the chassis, drivetrain and power.
Torsion beam is used for 3 reasons. First, it is cheap. Second, it gives you maximum boot space width. And third, it is a free super thick rear sway bar. And in Europe, everything is about how many chickens, bicycles and cows you can fit into the boot of your car. That is why hatches are so popular in Europe, you can fit much larger/taller objects in the boot compared to a sedan.

[bennjamin]

Another irrelevant thought - cl7 and cl9 both have double wishbone - between this and the s2k of recent , one is performance other is a lardy family car. There
Is much more playing into a cars performance than just the design of the front suspension !

[mugen_ctr]

Mate, you completely contradicted yourself.
1 - you say this proves not all double wishbone setup is good.
2 - you then comment on why double wishbone setup is better. By saying but honda focused on comfort, not good handling. (in a tone which defends the double wishbone setup over the struts.)

im saying HONDA double wish bone design may not be as great............. not saying the actual concept of double wish bone is bad

[Bludger]

im saying HONDA double wish bone design may not be as great............. not saying the actual concept of double wish bone is badDesign is perfect:p

Setup is compromised

[chargeR]

Oh I agree , but my adage is to stir the pot - compared previously was Honda cars with double wishbone and hondas with macpherson - comparing stock to stock , later cars with machperson struts handle better (with exclusions being the type r models). This is stock for stock tho around town and around the track. People on here need to accept that a jazz 1.5 does handle better than a Eg or ek civic with a beaks tiebar and fluffy dice !

Haha fair enough. I still think my stocko 22 year old EF8 handles better than a stock Jazz though, but as we both know that is partially superior suspension design, and the rest is springs/dampers etc. and the rest of the car.


in a way this proves a point that not all double wishbone design can be good, guess honda only designed this for comfort, not track, but still doesnt prove much to the world of engineering that double wish bone is bad..... most if not all race cars swear by double wish bone design, but this is coming from a race car

BUT at the end of the day, its not one component that make a car good or bad, its a combination, as many pointed out, mcpherson is simply, effective an cheap design, but been proven well on the roads, example S15, fantastic zippy cars ive driven, prbs one best road car handling ive driven around town, but with bit of boost can be tail happy.

I bolded the relevant part of your post. I ignored the rest :p.

[Bludger]

I still think my stocko 22 year old EF8 handles better than a stock Jazz though
Don't know if you've changed your bushes, but 22yo EF8 will not perform better.

LOL

[aaronng]

Haha fair enough. I still think my stocko 22 year old EF8 handles better than a stock Jazz though

Surely you have replaced the shocks on your EF8 by now as the original ones would have worn out. So they would be aftermarket ones which have better damper settings (and I'm guessing springs to match too)

[nd55]

The scrub radius of a Mcpherson strut on a zippy FWD causes very nervous steering, hence manufacturer's use all sorts of tricks like the latest knuckle design on the Ford Focus.

Double wishbone solves that issue.

On AWD or RWDs, front Mcpherson suspension doesn't have the same extreme issues.


Nick.