LSD - How many secs will it shave off your laptime?

[Glocker]

Hi guys, just asking a noob question here. How much faster would you go with a LSD gearbox vs a non-LSD gearbox? Has anyone made a comparison yet? Example B16A with no LSD and B16A with a CTR/ITR gearbox? Worth getting an OEM LSD gearbox along with a transplant or save up and go aftermarket later on? And if aftermarket...1 way or 1.5 way? Those MFactory LSDs look tempting!

[string]

4.52 seconds.

[GSi_PSi]

OEM LSD is pretty decent, dont have to worry about any annoying noises, easy to maintain and cheap.
If you want to shave laptimes, look at getting a aftermarket 4.9FD aswell which will make the most difference

[fatboyz39]

Too many variables. If your starting out OEM LSD will the sufficient.

[jetsta355]

My EG with B16A made about 3 secs a lap @ Eastern Creek after the addition of a Mfactory LSD. Sooooooo much better to drive out of corners. Highly recommended for sure! Eastern Creek 1.52.25 - Wakefield 1.10.9 -

[e240]

^ and you'll drop a second or so by going to an mfactory metal..LOL!!!

[mugen_ctr]

How highly rated are the Mfactory LSD?

I was looking at it for my Future d16 turbo build, $650 not bad price

[fatboyz39]

wavtrac is another option.

[DNYALL]

Kaaz froth. worth it for the broken car sound ;) LSD is a very good thing to have for a circuit car :thumbsup:

[Fraser]

Have run both Kaaz and factory lsd at track.Lap times no different but factory lsd easier to drive cheaper to buy easier to maintain.If I didn't already have a Kaaz I wouldn't buy one.

[dougie_504]

Also consider Quaife.

[Fraser]

Quaife same thing as factory lsd
Last a lifetime and don't wearout always cheap JDM ones on ebay.

[string]

-nuked-

[dc2r-0636]

Redline (magazine. March 2011) did a LSD test on a renualt clio 200. They used a Quaife LSD and recorded a lap 4 secs quicker then stock open diff

[string]

-nuked-

[dc2r-0636]

It says "the short course at Bruntingthorpe proving ground"

[Glocker]

How much to fit a diff to a gearbox? What's the labour prices I should be looking at? Or is this a tough DIY project?

[evil R34]

i saved about 1.5 to 2 secs a lap goin from jdm ep3 lsd to mugen 1.5way at wakefield excellent drive out of corners blew my mind

[aimre]

My EG with B16A made about 3 secs a lap @ Eastern Creek after the addition of a Mfactory LSD. Sooooooo much better to drive out of corners. Highly recommended for sure! Eastern Creek 1.52.25 - Wakefield 1.10.9 -

What did u happen to do at wakefield pre LSD?

[e240]

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?131297-MFactory-Words-of-Wisdom&p=2716552&viewfull=1#post2716552


http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?131297-MFactory-Words-of-Wisdom&p=3110077&viewfull=1#post3110077

[joe.teg]

Which track?

Open diff on the track is just hilarious. Can you say extreme power-understeer? Fishhook at Wakefield in the wet... LOL!

String, you couldnt be further from the truth man, my dc2 is running significantly more power than stock on a standard gearbox and i get no power understeer at the fish hook at wakefield. Sure i could take a couple of seconds off my time with an lsd which is soon to be installed. Just a helpful reminder that if you know how to drive your car there is no such thing as understeer :P

[GSi_PSi]

get that lsd and final drive combo joe and take me for another spin !

[EG30]

wavtrac is another option.

X2

and a bloody good option too.

Bought a Kazz myself for my eg few mths back and at the same time my fren with an EK9 bought a wavetrac. We installed the LSD ourselves.

Wavetrac install into the box was a breeze, using oe speedo ring gear on lsd and stock FD bolts. No need shiming for the correct bearing preload in his case it was exactly the same as the oe lsd. In my case I had to shim mine 0.3mm.

Had a run in his car with wavetrac over a week ago at a autokhana tuning day, I was very surprised how aggressive the wavetrac was ie very effective on tight turns and no clunking like the Kaaz. Throttle modulation in corners doesnt take time to lock as per the normal torsen diff.

Being a torsen design there is no wear and tear in the long run of the clutch packs and no need for specialised LSD oil with friction modifiers built in.

I was expecting the wavetrac to be more mellow and some latency during throttle modulations but that wasnt the case. Knowing what I know now I would buy the wavetrac next time before the Kaaz for sure. I went for the Kaaz as my car is a trackcar so the noise is an non issue for me and I assumed the 1.5way clutch type lsd had to be more immediate than a torsen design though a much improved design.

They are relative new to the market and for those who are skeptical about the strengh of the unit, check out other non Honda cars apps; they are very popular fitments in BMW 135i/335i's where they dont come with LSD ex factory like the M3's. Likewise in Golf GTi's and their Audi S3 cousins. Those who install aftermarket LSDs into their cars in that sector seldom leave their turbo engines stock and plenty of them are putting out big numbers at the wheels.

[EG30]

Hi guys, just asking a noob question here. How much faster would you go with a LSD gearbox vs a non-LSD gearbox? Has anyone made a comparison yet? Example B16A with no LSD and B16A with a CTR/ITR gearbox? Worth getting an OEM LSD gearbox along with a transplant or save up and go aftermarket later on? And if aftermarket...1 way or 1.5 way? Those MFactory LSDs look tempting!

OE torsen LSD is 100X better than an open diff.

OE torsen diff can be very effective at the track provided you drive according within its limations ie keep the preload on the inside wheel the best you can ie keep throttle on during cornering best you can - on-off-on-off cost you time as oe torsen and quaife has a latency before locking as such. And stay away from hopping over ripple strips where the inside wheel gets up in the air. Huge front sway bar tends to pick the inside wheel up during hard cornering also.

I sourced an OE lsd out of a DC5 in hk for a friend in Perth in a stockish FN2, made a huge difference to the way the car felt at events.

With plate type LSD and wavetrac they are better again but not night and day difference as in the case of open vs oe lsd.

If you decide to you clutch type, 1.5 way. I was concerned about possible understeer on corner entry as the 1.5 way is meant to partially lock when coasting on my 1.5 way (Kaaz) but in fact I couldnt feel any ill effects on corner entries as some suggested it would do. I felt more like the diff has some preload on the clutch packs when coasting to prime the lsd to react faster, ready to pounce when throttle is applied.

[turtleEK1]

X2

and a bloody good option too.

Bought a Kazz myself for my eg few mths back and at the same time my fren with an EK9 bought a wavetrac. We installed the LSD ourselves.

Wavetrac install into the box was a breeze, using oe speedo ring gear on lsd and stock FD bolts. No need shiming for the correct bearing preload in his case it was exactly the same as the oe lsd. In my case I had to shim mine 0.3mm.

Had a run in his car with wavetrac over a week ago at a autokhana tuning day, I was very surprised how aggressive the wavetrac was ie very effective on tight turns and no clunking like the Kaaz. Throttle modulation in corners doesnt take time to lock as per the normal torsen diff.

Being a torsen design there is no wear and tear in the long run of the clutch packs and no need for specialised LSD oil with friction modifiers built in.

I was expecting the wavetrac to be more mellow and some latency during throttle modulations but that wasnt the case. Knowing what I know now I would buy the wavetrac next time before the Kaaz for sure. I went for the Kaaz as my car is a trackcar so the noise is an non issue for me and I assumed the 1.5way clutch type lsd had to be more immediate than a torsen design though a much improved design.

They are relative new to the market and for those who are skeptical about the strengh of the unit, check out other non Honda cars apps; they are very popular fitments in BMW 135i/335i's where they dont come with LSD ex factory like the M3's. Likewise in Golf GTi's and their Audi S3 cousins. Those who install aftermarket LSDs into their cars in that sector seldom leave their turbo engines stock and plenty of them are putting out big numbers at the wheels.

Agree. Really happy with mine! They're apparently rebuildable/adjustable. Would be curious to see the difference!

Also for a bit of knowledge... Wavetrac is made by the same people who make Quaife lsd's.

[EG30]

Agree. Really happy with mine! They're apparently rebuildable/adjustable. Would be curious to see the difference!

Also for a bit of knowledge... Wavetrac is made by the same people who make Quaife lsd's.

Yeah you can buy an optional kit to make it more aggressive, but very little info avail and I have yet to see a dealer list them. Would be very interesting to know indeed what sort of real life difference it makes.

[string]

String, you couldnt be further from the truth man, my dc2 is running significantly more power than stock on a standard gearbox and i get no power understeer at the fish hook at wakefield.
Sure i could take a couple of seconds off my time with an lsd which is soon to be installed. Just a helpful reminder that if you know how to drive your car there is no such thing as understeer :P

We have completely different setups my friend. I'm guessing you have spring rates to the sound of 8/6 or 12/8?

[snk99999]

spoon 1.5way best choice

[gbpracing]

Kaaz is an excellent diff or any type of clutch pack LSD... for track.
Quaiff and Std TypeR are torque biasing diffs but still far more superior than nothing and would be my choice for street as the clutch plate types are noisy, clunky and not good when turning at slow speeds.
Depending on on what track you run, as far as what gains you get, more corners more advantage with good diff.
In my race car I tried both Quaiff and Kaaz at Phillip Island and found the Kaaz to be at least 2-3 sec quicker.
I have a clutch diff and TypeR for sale if interested !

[gen2 CRX]

For full on circuit racing you would use a clutch type lsd over the torsen diff. The torsen diff does not work well when one wheel has zero resistance eg. You lift a wheel on the track, or a wet road. The clutch type can also be adjusted for application. For street use you would go with a torsen diff as it does not wear out, easy to maintain and does not chatter at low speed.

[crx999]

I'm with Garry. Fitted a KAAZ diff to the CRX. Instant 2 sec lap gain @ Phillip Island with no other mods carried out.

[e240]

An LSD (either Helical or Metal) should be a must in every FWD car.

Helicals are designed with user friendliness in mind, quiet, ease of maintenance, works under most street conditions. It also doesn't require special oils although we do advise to use a better quality oil if doing the occasional track day.

Metals (Clutch pack) are more hard-core but will function under extreme conditions typically found on the track or very hard driving (Don't! on the street). Special oils are used more so to control the slip, the less noise, the less effective the LSD. Its about finding that balance.

Seeing two brands in there, I would like to include our MFactory product, which is a quality product, used by several race and rally teams in Australia. It is also the the leading brand of aftermarket LSDs in the US.

Do let me know if you have any questions.

[big tone]

Sorry to but in, but is there a gain from or dc2r LSD and Mfactory helical?

[e240]

Strength/Durability:
OEM - Cast. Is weaker than the metal it was cut from
MFactory - Forged. Upto 30% tougher than the metal it was cut from

Quality (Machining/Tolerance):
OEM - Within oem specs
MFactory - Within oem specs

Performance:
OEM - Fine for most grocery getters. Might find your diff exploding though after a few aggressive seasons. Cannot handle too high of a torque level
MFactory - Same bias ratio as OEM, but more aggressive tooth angle (i.e more power is transferred to the ground). Can handle higher torque. Is lightweight (due to being Forged + our weight reducing features)

Value for Money:
OEM - No warranty (unless it is original equipment). Very expensive brand new, relatively affordable 2nd Hand
MFactory - Lifetime warranty. Goes against the saying; You actually get more than what you pay for . Is the cheapest "Quality" differential, but is certainly not "cheap" (it is "lower cost" because of our manufacturing process i.e Forging, not because of its Quality).

Brand Recognition:
OEM - Who's never heard of Honda?
MFactory - We released our Helical LSD 2 years ago. Since the late 90's, Quaife had 70% share of the North American Honda aftermarket. Now, in 2011, we have 70% share of the North American Honda aftermarket. The rest is shared between Quaife/Wavetrac/OBX

Finally, our units are plug and play for whatever B series gearbox you have. Putting a OEM Type R LSD into a non-type r box requires changing a number of items to fit.

[big tone]

Cheers E240
as much as id like to put a plate clutch in.. the car is still street/Track, Not Track/street. when it comes off the road and im racing every month then the plate clutch will go in..

[e240]

you are right. A helical is more suited to everyday driving but if you are hardcore, nothing beats the metal/clutch pack

[bennjamin]

you are right. A helical is more suited to everyday driving but if you are hardcore, nothing beats the metal/clutch pack

define "hardcore" and what is the general intervals in fixing/replacing these clutch type diffs ?



BTW im still on for the diff :)

[e240]

define "hardcore" and what is the general intervals in fixing/replacing these clutch type diffs ?
BTW im still on for the diff :)

Hardcore = I do track days and I want to be one of the fastest at the track days (if not the fastest), I drive my car to the track, i wear earplugs and have heat patches in winter cause there's no heater in my car - weight or the lack thereoff is everything (True story). I like to have wierd mechanical noises coming from my car which puzzles ppl. etc. LOL.

For Metal LSD
We recommend inspecting the diff every season just to make sure the plates are working well for the next season. Say circuit racing, maybe you'd have done abt 10 events of about 10+ laps. if street car, meh...you'd probably sell the car with it as a selling point.

For helical LSD
You'd probably sell the car with it as a selling point.

[jetsta355]

E240 well said ..... :)

[newpaddy3]

I personally feel that when driving under the influence of LSD that my lap times significantly improve.

I'm not sure if it's a decrease in the self preservation instinct, or purely a hallucination derived from the chemical reactions between neurons.

Maybe try speed next time for greater concentration to hit those apexes?

*edit*

My deepest and sincere apologies, I misinterpreted the thread.

May you all enjoy that limited slip differential.

[e240]

Wait till you try speed.


I personally feel that when driving under the influence of LSD that my lap times significantly improve.

I'm not sure if it's a decrease in the self preservation instinct, or purely a hallucination derived from the chemical reactions between neurons.

Maybe try speed next time for greater concentration to hit those apexes?

*edit*

My deepest and sincere apologies, I misinterpreted the thread.

May you all enjoy that limited slip differential.