Accord =/= Performance, but why?

[Jccck]

I've never really posted much on here.. But i do browse the forums quite often, and i'm a member on CB7Tuner and OzAccord.

But in all the time i've spent here, Civics are for performance.. And everyone thinks 'Type R's are 'all that'.
Curious why there is little to no interest in anything 'performance' related when it comes to Accords in Australia.. What's the turnoff?
(And by performance i'm talking serious ;) )

Also curious if any other boosted Accords besides Poid, Kccord's exist.. (There was a CB7 too with a F22B swap, but i think it was parted out)

[ceedeefive]

civics are popular thats why, type r's are nothing to H powered accord :)

[string]

They're popular for performance because they're light and easy to swap engines into: i.e. they perform better for cheaper. Add 20 years of aftermarket support because of this and you have what we have today.

[MWAKU]

and the main reason ppl buy type R is for raw power and agility. something very racey. well maybe not for fn2r.

ppl buy euros for their family, or something nice and comfortable to drive (the reason why i went from my dc2r to the CL9)

i was thinking of turbo'ing my euro, but then decided what for, i'd rather just sell it buy something that was from factory a turbo car

[Jccck]

civics are popular thats why, type r's are nothing to H powered accord :)

H Powered? Cmon Luke ;)
I'll just claim Australia's highest HP Accord, and only fully built+boosted F22A you watch ;)

Not sure why noone shares my enthusiasm lol :(

[Troy]

Stock F22B1 here, gives relatively good performance in a slightly larger car than Civic.

Turbo? Mmmm yummy yes please!

[Jccck]

Stock F22B1 here, gives relatively good performance in a slightly larger car than Civic.

Turbo? Mmmm yummy yes please!

Haha, i wish it were as simple as people thought to 'whack a turbo on' your car.
So my only competition are Civics? Brilliant lol

[Troy]

Yeah it is a big job to turbo a car properly

[namtaro]

dw man there are accord owners around, but like most said, its more comfort, plus we like to keep ourselves low and not want to be a sik k*nt and show off our power.

[Jccck]

dw man there are accord owners around, but like most said, its more comfort, plus we like to keep ourselves low and not want to be a sik k*nt and show off our power.

I like comfort, clean looks, driveability and amazing handling!
300+kw atw is just a bonus!

[Jarik]

I guess weight largely comes into it. The Accord weighs a lot more than most of these cars, and yet, doesn't really come with a bigger engine. With the CL7 Euro-R having the same K20 engine as ITR and CTR, and the older Accords having the SiR H22/F20B, and the CL1 Euro-R H22 models. Since none of those are available in Australia, you need to do a swap for a sporty engine.

I guess the reason why most people go Civics is because they are very light, and after doing engine swaps, they can be very quick, with their lightness making up for being FWD. Preludes and Integra's are cheap and already come with the B18CR and H22 engines respectively, so don't really cost as much.

And yeah, in the end if someone is buying the 4 door Accord, they are probably buying it more for its practicality over its sportiness.

If they want a fast 4 door car they plan to mod a lot, they're probably more likely to choose from the wealth of turbo-AWD/RWD cars available - Evo, WRX, Legnum/Galant VR4, Liberty GT, Chaser, 4 door Skyline/Stagea, Falcadore, etc. Since well, I've found in heavier cars, the FWD disadvantage is more apparent as well as the lack of torque/power.

Though on a side note, here's an interesting BMI comparison of the K20 CL7, DC5 and EP3, and then a comparison of similarly tuned CL7 and DC5. So not like it can't be done well. =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB5AqAY5EpU

[Fredoops]

Though on a side note, here's an interesting BMI comparison of the K20 CL7, DC5 and EP3, and then a comparison of similarly tuned CL7 and DC5. So not like it can't be done well. =)

Not a fair fight, give them a USDM K24A and try again!

The CL9 is a good starting car to tune, after all, it's got double wishbone front AND rear they use the Accord for the WTCC!
http://ll.speedhunters.com/u/f/eagames/NFS/speedhunters.com/Images/AndyBlackmore/RACING/misc/tommo.jpg

[Indie]

Why mod a FWD sedan, when there are plenty of RWD/AWD options to choose from? Why mod a FWD sedan, when there are smaller, lighter FWD cars to mod instead?

Like the Magna, the Accord always should have been RWD. The fact that it isn't relegates it to cruiser status, and I guess that's all it was ever intended for. It's just a shame that the WRX doesn't look anywhere near as good.

[Jarik]

Not a fair fight, give them a USDM K24A and try again!

When is Best Motoring ever fair? =P

[Jccck]

Why mod a FWD sedan, when there are plenty of RWD/AWD options to choose from? Why mod a FWD sedan, when there are smaller, lighter FWD cars to mod instead?

Like the Magna, the Accord always should have been RWD. The fact that it isn't relegates it to cruiser status, and I guess that's all it was ever intended for. It's just a shame that the WRX doesn't look anywhere near as good.

FWD/RWD/AWD.. How many have you driven to their limits?
FWD has the most fun and sporty handling of the three in my opinion.

I have a CB7, weighs in at approx 1250kg which is still incredibly light by Sedan/Coupe standards.
4 doors, it has leg room for everyone, it has good boot space and it's super comfy with all the quality an Accord should have.. And it's still a small size compared to other Sedans.
Why wouldn't you want a nice comfy car, that's fast and handles too?

Civics, Ludes, Tegs, Accords.. They're all not that fast, they all require $ to be spent if you're chasing decent power.
It's not like cost or avaliability have anything to do with it either, i can get anything i want for the same price you can get it for your Civic or Prelude.

Accords never should have been RWD, Magna's should've simply been smaller.. But still FWD.
Did you know they're talking about changing the Ford Falcon to FWD sometime in the future?

[Jarik]

The point here is that FWD doesn't like lots of torque. It just doesn't feel good. It doesn't handle the power. Not like AWD.

On a light car it doesn't matter as much, but on a heavier car, you need more power. An EG with 120kW and no torque feels quick. And you can maintain that speed a lot easier since you can corner faster.

I remember driving a TJ Magna VRX - 160kW, 300Nm or so. It was horrid. Wheel spin in a straight line, wheel spin while turning - whenever you touched the throttle. You could only use the power in a straight line in gear 2 or higher provided everything is perfectly dry. Compare that to say, an Evo 7 I was in - it's very hard to actually get that car to *lose* grip.

That and well, there's a general preference in the performance scene for AWD and RWD cars across the board.

There's nothing wrong with tuning an Accord, and I think it's great that some nicely modded Accords exist. I just think for most people, they just don't have any real reason to choose the heavier car, when it's only real advantage is being bigger and more practical (which for 'performance' is a negative, not a positive).

[opilot87]

FWD is definitely a compromise to start as a base. But doesn't mean a FWD car can't handle better than a RWD. I don't necessarily think the Accord should have been RWD, the V6 is probably a bit compromised in the FWD, but something like the Euro, it can handle the power and still handles very nicely. Making it RWD would also have meant additional costs and packaging compromises.

The only reason they are talking of changing the Falcon to FWD is because they dont' have any option. Ford Aus won't be allowed to develop their own chassis, and probably can't afford to, and they don't really have any RWD platform options of that size/cost globally, so will have to take their only option of a FWD Taurus platform. They really don't want to go FWD, only because they have to and definitely not because they think it's better.

Ollie

[Jccck]

You're kinda derailing this with your AWD/RWD comments guys
My question was why are there more modified Civics, Integras (As a percentage of total) than there are Ludes and especially Accords?
They're all FWD.. They're all the same speed (Give or take) and when we're comparing between 1050kg and 1250kg.. On a street (Or even occasional track) car.. The weight shouldn't concern anyone.

Just can't understand why the popular choice, is the simpler, smaller versions.. Which hold no advantage (A disadvantage imo) to their slightly bigger, more up-market counterparts?

[string]

200kg difference is huge, even on the street. For all else to be equal you'll be going through more fuel, more brake pads, and need bigger tyres for the same lateral grip.

They're not the same speed in a straight line when you factor in engine swaps (which you must, since the aftermarket is built on a market saturated with swappers). Accord/Prelude racecars might be feasible because the rules usually limit each of the cars to similar power to weight ratios. There are no such rules on the steet: A swapped EG has the potential to be much quicker than any Accord.

RWD vs FWD is a silly debate. If your car has ever had a rego sticker on it, it's already a huge compromise. All else equal*, RWD is going to be 'better'.

*but it never is.

[Indie]

FWD/RWD/AWD.. How many have you driven to their limits?
FWD has the most fun and sporty handling of the three in my opinion.

I have a CB7, weighs in at approx 1250kg which is still incredibly light by Sedan/Coupe standards.
4 doors, it has leg room for everyone, it has good boot space and it's super comfy with all the quality an Accord should have.. And it's still a small size compared to other Sedans.
Why wouldn't you want a nice comfy car, that's fast and handles too?

Civics, Ludes, Tegs, Accords.. They're all not that fast, they all require $ to be spent if you're chasing decent power.
It's not like cost or avaliability have anything to do with it either, i can get anything i want for the same price you can get it for your Civic or Prelude.

Accords never should have been RWD, Magna's should've simply been smaller.. But still FWD.
Did you know they're talking about changing the Ford Falcon to FWD sometime in the future?I've driven an FWD hatch to its limits. I've understeered it into an embankment, and flipped it. Since then I've driven a FWD Verada, and I avoid its limits at all times. This is a heavy car that should have never been FWD. The post below outlines exactly why FWD is a bad idea in these sorts of cars. And there's no point making a smaller Magna, because that's what the Lancer is for.

Jccck: "You're kinda derailing this with your AWD/RWD comments guys
My question was why are there more modified Civics, Integras (As a percentage of total) than there are Ludes and especially Accords?
They're all FWD.. They're all the same speed (Give or take) and when we're comparing between 1050kg and 1250kg.. On a street (Or even occasional track) car.. The weight shouldn't concern anyone.

Just can't understand why the popular choice, is the simpler, smaller versions.. Which hold no advantage (A disadvantage imo) to their slightly bigger, more up-market counterparts?"

No, the FWD discussion is not derailing your thread, as it is the main issue. The Accord is definitely too big and heavy to be a FWD performance car.

[Jccck]

I've driven an FWD hatch to its limits. I've understeered it into an embankment, and flipped it.

This is why taking your Mum's Barina for a 'drive' on the nearest gravel road is a bad idea!

I've always found a slightly longer wheelbase was of value to handling no matter what the drive type.. Obviously don't take this the wrong way and assume i think a Schoolbus is race-car.
Aslong as a longer wheelbase car doesn't carry 'too' much extra weight than the shorter wheelbase version, it's usually a good thing.. Not to mention alot lower CoG.

As said, there are no limits on the street.. Power, weight, suspension and most importantly driver skill are all greatly varied.
Because of this, it doesn't matter if i have 350kw in a Ford Territory, or 350kw in a Civic.
So there is no grounds to claim (Purely based on 20% extra weight) a certain car is 'not effective'

On the track, ofcourse.. Everyone wants a stripped Civic with a billion dollars worth of suspension and an ITB'd All-Motor setup.
But as you said, Power/Weight ratio evens the speed, and handling is comparable.

I still haven't recieved an answer as to why Civics are 'the' car? Stop talking about AWDs, RWDs, 4WDs, Roadbikes and GoKarts.. Because it's not relevant (And if you think it is, you misunderstood the question)

[Indie]

This is why taking your Mum's Barina for a 'drive' on the nearest gravel road is a bad idea!

I've always found a slightly longer wheelbase was of value to handling no matter what the drive type.. Obviously don't take this the wrong way and assume i think a Schoolbus is race-car.
Aslong as a longer wheelbase car doesn't carry 'too' much extra weight than the shorter wheelbase version, it's usually a good thing.. Not to mention alot lower CoG.

As said, there are no limits on the street.. Power, weight, suspension and most importantly driver skill are all greatly varied.
Because of this, it doesn't matter if i have 350kw in a Ford Territory, or 350kw in a Civic.
So there is no grounds to claim (Purely based on 20% extra weight) a certain car is 'not effective'

On the track, ofcourse.. Everyone wants a stripped Civic with a billion dollars worth of suspension and an ITB'd All-Motor setup.
But as you said, Power/Weight ratio evens the speed, and handling is comparable.

I still haven't recieved an answer as to why Civics are 'the' car? Stop talking about AWDs, RWDs, 4WDs, Roadbikes and GoKarts.. Because it's not relevant (And if you think it is, you misunderstood the question)Ask yourself which car has better handling potential: A Civic, or an Accord? The Civic. It is smaller, lighter, and sportier. The Accord would need to be RWD to justify the extra size and weight.

If you don't understand the answer, maybe you need to put down the Xbox controller, and come to terms with how cars actually work. "There are no limits on the street"? What a ridiculous statement. Are you bitter that your Accord doesn't grant you access to some street-racer culture? It's a family sedan.

[string]

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[Troy]

At the end of the day if you are talking about handling, I don't see why a Civic would be better than an Accord. If you threw exactly the same quality suspension upgrades to a Civic and an Accord and battled it out, how would you compare and justify which is better? I reckon they would be so close it would not be worth arguing one over the other.

[Jccck]

Ask yourself which car has better handling potential: A Civic, or an Accord? The Civic. It is smaller, lighter, and sportier. The Accord would need to be RWD to justify the extra size and weight.

If you don't understand the answer, maybe you need to put down the Xbox controller, and come to terms with how cars actually work. "There are no limits on the street"? What a ridiculous statement. Are you bitter that your Accord doesn't grant you access to some street-racer culture? It's a family sedan.

And an Integra is a poor man's sportscar, that's not remotely sporty.
This doesn't grand you access to the 'car' scene, because you're playing with toys.. Yeah?

This question doesn't have to refer to somone who's blown $50k on their car to make it the best it can be, or to somone who races of a weekend.
The question is aimed at this community, the average member here probably has no more than $5000 spent on their car aftermarket (Wheels, sound system, anything)
Why do the 'average' people choose to start with the Civic/Integra?
Because from Stock to $5k Modified.. There's no difference between the Integras, Civics, Ludes or Accords. None whatsoever.

You can pull quite a bit of impressive performance out of most Honda models for $15k.
Even at the 15k mark, there is little difference between models.
Sure, the Civic has a K24 in it.. But that's $4000 that the BB6 Lude spent on fine tuning his suspension and handling.
And suddenly everything evens out again, as it did at Stock.
The ONLY time that absolute limits of performance come into play, is when they're met.. And there is a clear winner (But cars such as this rarely remain street-driven.. Making it irrelevant)

Knowledge and $ are what improves a cars performance.. Not favoritism and opinion.
And you STILL can't answer my question.

String;
Fair point about the brake pads, fuel, etc.. This doesn't mean it's not easily doable, just that it's at a slight cost disadvantage.
RWD vs FWD is indeed a silly debate, they both have their advantages.. And different people have different taste.

I know FWD, RWD, AWD and 4WD quite well..
Can safely say from experience i'd rather have a 325kw Accord, than a 325kw 300ZX.
But that's my opinion.

[Jccck]

At the end of the day if you are talking about handling, I don't see why a Civic would be better than an Accord. If you threw exactly the same quality suspension upgrades to a Civic and an Accord and battled it out, how would you compare and justify which is better? I reckon they would be so close it would not be worth arguing one over the other.

This is exactly what i believe.
And all i wish to know is why, given identical performance from standard to reasonably modified.. That the Civic is the car of choice?

[string]

The question is aimed at this community, the average member here probably has no more than $5000 spent on their car aftermarket (Wheels, sound system, anything)
Why do the 'average' people choose to start with the Civic/Integra?
Because from Stock to $5k Modified.. There's no difference between the Integras, Civics, Ludes or Accords. None whatsoever.

If consumables cost more, why would a budget racer ever choose an Accord over a Civic if they were indeed equal in performance?

Now that the aftermarket has 20 years of investment primarily into the Civic and Integra, the Accord and Ludes are even more screwed in that not only are the running costs greater, but so are the modification costs. Today, like it or not, the best cost to performance comes from an EG/EK Civic.

[string]

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[Jarik]

They're all FWD.. They're all the same speed (Give or take) and when we're comparing between 1050kg and 1250kg.. On a street (Or even occasional track) car.. The weight shouldn't concern anyone.

200kg would make a big difference. Surely everyone notices a difference in the way their car behaves with a passenger and without? That's around 70kg. On Winton, I gain around 4 seconds without a passenger in my near stock 3g Prelude. Not exactly negligible. 200kg would make a huge difference I bet.

[Jccck]

If consumables cost more, why would a budget racer ever choose an Accord over a Civic if they were indeed equal in performance?

Now that the aftermarket has 20 years of investment primarily into the Civic and Integra, the Accord and Ludes are even more screwed in that not only are the running costs greater, but so are the modification costs. Today, like it or not, the best cost to performance comes from an EG/EK Civic.

So in response to my original question;

People buy Civics because they're tightasses? That's a good enough answer for me. Thanks.

Maybe CoG was the wrong term.. Point of roll-over?

Alot is.

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[Indie]

And an Integra is a poor man's sportscar, that's not remotely sporty.
This doesn't grand you access to the 'car' scene, because you're playing with toys.. Yeah?

This question doesn't have to refer to somone who's blown $50k on their car to make it the best it can be, or to somone who races of a weekend.
The question is aimed at this community, the average member here probably has no more than $5000 spent on their car aftermarket (Wheels, sound system, anything)
Why do the 'average' people choose to start with the Civic/Integra?
Because from Stock to $5k Modified.. There's no difference between the Integras, Civics, Ludes or Accords. None whatsoever.

You can pull quite a bit of impressive performance out of most Honda models for $15k.
Even at the 15k mark, there is little difference between models.
Sure, the Civic has a K24 in it.. But that's $4000 that the BB6 Lude spent on fine tuning his suspension and handling.
And suddenly everything evens out again, as it did at Stock.
The ONLY time that absolute limits of performance come into play, is when they're met.. And there is a clear winner (But cars such as this rarely remain street-driven.. Making it irrelevant)

Knowledge and $ are what improves a cars performance.. Not favoritism and opinion.
And you STILL can't answer my question.

String;
Fair point about the brake pads, fuel, etc.. This doesn't mean it's not easily doable, just that it's at a slight cost disadvantage.
RWD vs FWD is indeed a silly debate, they both have their advantages.. And different people have different taste.

I know FWD, RWD, AWD and 4WD quite well..
Can safely say from experience i'd rather have a 325kw Accord, than a 325kw 300ZX.
But that's my opinion.Yes, an Integra is a poor man's sports car. The Accord is a better family sedan than the Integra is a sports car. What's your point? Attacking the Integra isn't going to make your Accord any more suited to track duties.

You keep saying that nobody is answering your question, but they are; you're just ignoring the answers. The Accord is heavier, larger and taller than the Civic and Integra. There is absolutely no reason to choose it over the other two as a performance car. You seem to want to justify to yourself that your car is something that it's not, and won't take no for an answer. Or anything for that matter.

Again: "There are no limits on the street". You've been watching too many Fast and Furious films, kid.

"People buy Civics because they're tightasses? That's a good enough answer for me. Thanks." Stupidity.

[Fredoops]

I don't know what point of roll-over means. The 5th gen Accord is almost 10cm taller than the Civic. It almost definitely has a higher centre of gravity. Even when you've spent more money on bigger tyres to give you the same coefficient of grip, you're still shit out of luck. The total grip will always be lower.

Wouldn't that also depend on the width of the track?

Also suspension wise, accord has should wishbones front and rear, correct me if im wrog here but which I don't think its the case for civic?

Look at the BTCC/WTCC, both Accord, Integras and Civics are used as donors for racecars. They can be as potent as each other.

[string]

Wouldn't that also depend on the width of the track?

Indeed; however even when normalising, the Accord is still taller, relatively. (At least when comparing the 5th gens).



Also suspension wise, accord has should wishbones front and rear, correct me if im wrog here but which I don't think its the case for civic?

All the 90-01 Integras/Civics are double wishbone front and rear and are all similar in geometry. This includes the Integra Type-R.



Look at the BTCC/WTCC, both Accord, Integras and Civics are used as donors for racecars. They can be as potent as each other.
In situations like this you need to know the rules of the competition before drawing any conclusions. What's quickest in a time-attack won't necessarily be the winner in a wheel to wheel race. What proportion of street-driving enthusiasts participate in wheel to wheel racing?

[Jarik]

Also suspension wise, accord has should wishbones front and rear, correct me if im wrog here but which I don't think its the case for civic?

The EP3R and DC5R only have one double wishbone, while the CL7 Accord has it both.

But older Integras I think have them on both.

[elemental_funk]

This is worth bumping. Since when were civics for tightasses?? They are too expensive for what you get. The little 1.6 hatches which are pretty pathetic from factory are 5k+ (for just another dodgy altezza light special). And buying a type r is holy crap expensive. They are so popular they hold their value way above the trim level and australian spec engines you get.
I guess if you are keeping it strictly honda, I wouldn't want to drive a civic because they are tiny little boxes and engine swapping to a h22 or k20 would cost through the roof. At a stock price comparison, i would buy the accord because i want a little room and luxury with my slow car. But if you set your $5k limit, I would still choose an accord, because you can get a h22 swap for next to nothing. OR you could just buy a prelude.
So that's your problem- want to know what the best honda is? just buy a prelude, that's what everyone else has done. They aren't a dodgy p plater car like the civic and you wont get laughed at by girls for driving it. You could h swap an accord but with a prelude you could drop that cash on an exhaust or something. Teggys are pretty cool too i guess, seem a bit torqueless.

[Jarik]

You have a *very* good point about the price.

There are 3 EM1s on carsales at the moment - cheapest is $9.5k, most expensive is $15k (http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/results.aspx?D=em1&Qpb=true&Ntt=em1&keywords=&SearchAction=N&N=1216+1246+1247+1252+1282+4294965322+4294965250&sid=121BCFB8A299&Dx=mode+matchany&Nne=15&tsrc=allcarhome&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ns=pCar_RankSort_Int32|1||pCar_PriceSort_Decimal|1 ||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0&Ntk=CarAll). None are particularly modded. You look at DC2Rs and its a similar story - cheapest is $13k and some dreamers have them as expensive as $24k for stock-ish examples! (http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/results.aspx?tabID=304727&Qpb=1&Cr=2&keywords=&SearchAction=N&N=1216%201246%201247%201252%201282%204294965322%20 4294965105%204294921591&silo=1011&sid=121BCFB8A299&seot=1&Nne=15&trecs=3&Ns=pCar_PriceSort_Decimal|0||pCar_RankSort_Int32|1 ||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0).

What else can you get in that price range? How about an Evo VI (http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/results.aspx?tabID=304727&Qpb=true&keywords=&SearchAction=N&N=1216%201246%201247%201252%201282%204294964597%20 4294966896%204294795651&sid=121BCFB8A299&Nne=15&tsrc=allcarhome&Ns=pCar_PriceSort_Decimal|0||pCar_RankSort_Int32|1 ||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0)? There is even a JDM Evo VI Tommi Makinen Edition for $14.5k. How about an S14A? WRX? All the same model year, all a lot quicker, all a similar price range.

I'd say its probably largely attributed to the fact P platers can't drive turbo, so Hondas are the first cars they turn to.


So that's your problem- want to know what the best honda is? just buy a prelude, that's what everyone else has done. They aren't a dodgy p plater car like the civic and you wont get laughed at by girls for driving it. You could h swap an accord but with a prelude you could drop that cash on an exhaust or something. Teggys are pretty cool too i guess, seem a bit torqueless.

To be fair, I think Preludes have more of a reputation as a chick's car while Civics have more of a reputation as a ricer car. At least with Civics you don't get laughed at by other car fans. I know - I drive a Prelude. =P