120 - 140KW b18cr

[Alexplicit]

hi guys :) got a pretty vague question for use :)

i have a b18cr (96 spec)

so far i have

hondata s200

toda cam gears

toda flywheel

toda timing belt

fujitsubo catback

injen intake

exedy hd clutch

im looking at chasing 120-140FWKW

what else is required. im thinking:

Cams (inc, springs valves, ect)
Headers (Toda..?)
maybe port polish


thanks everyone.

[Cartoon]

def need cam set up and headder mate

[hussLEr]

hi flow cat

[jdm18c]

if this helps i had a b18cr with toda headers,standard sype r cat back, comtec ice box and tune with hodata s200 and made 120.7kwatw at toda dyno so i reakon youd be pushing real hard to get anything above 130 imo

[dougie_504]

As above. Camshafts (maybe a 'stage 2' or similar) + supporting valvetrain IE springs, retainers, OEM valves should be fine. 100cel high-flow cat for sure, and definitely a header. Port job with matched manifolds and a valve job would be good too. Maybe even a TB and IM ugprade, Skunk2 or similar.

[MM89]

Toda Spec C's, Toda header as you mentioned and 1mm oversize pistons (82mm) will be plenty enough to get you into 140kw+ mark.


Customer car

Engine - B18C7
Displacement - 1842cc
Bore -82.00mm
Stroke - 87.20mm
CR -12.8:1
Camshaft - TODA Spec C
Camgear Settings - Intake & Exhaut 102.5deg LCA (High cam)
Gearbox - OEM DC2R + Cusco LSD
I/H/E - Mugen Airbox + SPOON Throttle on std ITR plenum / TODA header / Custom 2.5" cat back
ECU - MOTEC M4
1/4 mile - 12.9 @ 103mph
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/1842ccB18C.jpg
Dyno run in 4th

Valve springs are a must.
Stronger rods and oil pump gear just might be a wise move.

[V8KLLR]

For motorsport or a daily driver/weekend warrior? Cause I wouldnt get Toda Spec C's for a daily. I'd go for spec B

[MM89]

Yeah it would be easier to run Spec B's, won't even need the extra CR with the hi-comp pistons and obviously less money involved.
Head work done right and uprated valvetrain will see 130's quite easily on B18cR.

[Benson]

Budget 3-4k on top to get 130-140kw's from a B-series. That is being reasonable as well

[Alexplicit]

thanks guys any more suggestions

[fatboyz39]

Add nos.

[Alexplicit]

no nos lol. i do however have 2 big bottles of it from dads slr 5000 :D.. but i wanna stay away from it, i dont wanna crack my engine to find that a cat with titanium nails has gone nuts in the bore :)

[vtecing]

I had a dc2r with cheap ass straight through exhaust, short ram intake, cp pistons, eagle conrods and VAFC2 made 135kw atw

[mugen_ctr]

If u can spare extra change, electronic boost controller, intercooler kit, 450cc injectors, fuel pump (walbro 255l), and stick to 3 inch exhaust for maximum power, as alot of the Honda prefabbed exhaust are all 60mm for DC2/EK9, around 2.37inches, which might be a tad small for boost

[DC2-PWR]

I had a dc2r with cheap ass straight through exhaust, short ram intake, cp pistons, eagle conrods and VAFC2 made 135kw atw

What dyno?

[GSi_PSi]

cp pistons and eagle condrods wont gain you more power on their own, you need supporting headwork, you might gain a little more power if the compression ratio was bumped but wont give u a large jump in kw reading more so as the car will be more responsive

[Alexplicit]

im not boosted :/

[vinnY]

buy my narrow b series headers to help you get there ;)

[Jomsy]

I make 139fwkw with, toda header,b cams,valve springs, mugen intake and powerfc, plus a few other bits n pieces, tuned and dyned at toda

[MM89]

I make 139fwkw with, toda header,b cams,valve springs, mugen intake and powerfc, plus a few other bits n pieces, tuned and dyned at toda

stock bottom end?

[Cartoon]

get some rocket motorsport m22x cams :)

[Jomsy]

stock bottom end?

Sure is

[davidvtec]

I make 139fwkw with, toda header,b cams,valve springs, mugen intake and powerfc, plus a few other bits n pieces, tuned and dyned at toda

Is that head ported as well?

[pat88c]

is random question how would a Build B18CR with 140kw conpair to a standard K20a with 140kw?

At the moment i waring up the pro and con to do a K series swap over a do B series swap with a build B18CR as mosty track car but still with rego into small ED9 crx chassis

I more think a B series would be hell of alot easy swap and better car weight balance wise

What everyone else thoughts?

[damienm]

the k series weighs around the same as the b18cr so weight balance is not an issue.
why not go for a k24? its cheaper than the k20 and its quicker :)

[GSi_PSi]

K SERIES pros =, K20 has VCT which the B series lacks...basically just pulls the car so much quicker to redline is a simple way to put it.
K series has a great 6 SPEED gearbox which works and feels so much better than any B series box. Also has more torque everywhere which only B series could be similiar is the B20VTEC but still doesnt rev the way a k20 does
finally you will need to build at least a 160kw B18C to equal a 140kw K20A. Parts are becoming more common accessible and slowly cheaper
K series cons = $$$$ expensive parts just keep adding up, ac/ps will need to be customised bonnet need to be cut, taking more time to install

Weight balance is negligible as the difference is not much between the two engines

B series pros = If your going to build a B series , go B20VTEC there is no replacement for displacement, easier to swap than k series can get all ef parts aircon, powersteering
parts are readily available and reasonably priced, straight foward conversion most of everything remains in same spot
B series cons= need to spend $$$ to get on par with a k series and might just end up costing more and making less power,

[pat88c]

thanks guys for quick reply

yeah wouldn't mind a K24 but block height already a issue with bonnet clearance and want to legal with a K20a

the reason i said weight balance is not due to engine weight but moving the engine from passage's side of the car to driver's side of the car
Has anyone done conner weight different of before with B series and after with a K series ? Would love to know if it much weight move to one side

Thanks GSI_PSI made me wanting to do the K20a ITR again as it a the better motor long term with your pro's and con's
I do plan to put build K20 in after year or so to start hunting down quicker lap times

The P/s option has been on my mind with the K series as it likely not going to fit in the small ED9 engine bay even with a EF8 bonnet (most guys don't have it as far see if all none)
but i try fit P/s pump when the time comes

Pat

[Benson]

K-series, newer, makes more power and torque, requires less maintanence, will be alot cheaper in the long run

[dougie_504]

Pat,

I built my B16A and I love it, love the car, love the B-series and everything.

But I would not do it again. I could have spent just a little more to put a JDM K20A in (much more power) but I wanted my car to have the B-series OEM-ness that makes it somewhat of a classic. If this doesn't bother you, just go K-series. Better value for money, less issues etc etc. Far better option. Otherwise Honda would have stuck with the B, right?

[Jomsy]

Is that head ported as well?


Standard head

[u mad?]

Standard head

what exauhst and headers? thats a great power figure!

[Jomsy]

Toda headers and spoon n1, to be honest alot of it comes down to selecting the correct parts and having them fitted correctly then tuned correctly, any monkey can fit cams and an exhaust, pros take the time to dial cams and align and port match the exhaust

[u mad?]

for sure, thats why im going to be doing a 60 hour round trip to sydney to get it done by toda.

i'd be happy with anything over 130kw
with toda b's i/h/e s300

[DCZ 18C]

I make 139fwkw with, toda header,b cams,valve springs, mugen intake and powerfc, plus a few other bits n pieces, tuned and dyned at toda

what were the other few bits and pieces jomsy....?? xD

[RSKEbaby]

K series swap is expensive, not the motor. but the conversion parts, and it won't be stock because you will need custom headers/cat/zorst/intake/ecu etc!

You need to spend ALOT of $ to get a Built B series on the same level as the K.

[fatboyz39]

K series aint expensive. Check my for sale thread, one for going hella cheap $8500 everything needed minus installation.

Built B series will set you back a good 6-10k, and yet make less power then a stock K20 type R with bolt ons/tuned.

[civicboy84]

is random question how would a Build B18CR with 140kw conpair to a standard K20a with 140kw?

At the moment i waring up the pro and con to do a K series swap over a do B series swap with a build B18CR as mosty track car but still with rego into small ED9 crx chassis

I more think a B series would be hell of alot easy swap and better car weight balance wise

What everyone else thoughts?

dude when it comes to doing conversions I wouldnt bother spending the time or money on a 21yr old car.....serious over capitalisation, better off putting that money and effort into an already decent car dc2r or dc5r.....ek9 etc..

[pat88c]

very good point i come up with that conclusion after more research after this first post and go buy a EP3R in 12months time then modifying a ED9 crx to find a over size k20a engine and gearbox and have i will have great daily unmodified EP3R with only few bugs conpair

A B18c is easy swap into a ED9 crx amount work wise but dollars not really
I think just rebuild my d16a8 with cams, high comp pistons, Hondata ECU and few other thing to get sweet low power street/track car which all i really want in the end

[GSi_PSi]

turbo it pat

[nigs]

What numbers are people pulling with AUDM K20's with I/H/E? Or even K24?
From what I could find, most were around the 130-140kw mark. 150kw for cam or JDM motors?

That's not a far cry from a healthy B18CR pulling 120kw~.
The torque and power delivery of a K20 is definitely superior and their gearboxes are killer. You get what you pay for, the extra spent on a K series is totally worth it if that's your power goal. Why do a motor swap then build it up. Unless it's a wicked crate motor :O

But I agree with dougie, the B series does have it's charm. :)

[Benson]

What numbers are people pulling with AUDM K20's with I/H/E? Or even K24?
From what I could find, most were around the 130-140kw mark. 150kw for cam or JDM motors?

That's not a far cry from a healthy B18CR pulling 120kw~.
The torque and power delivery of a K20 is definitely superior and their gearboxes are killer. You get what you pay for, the extra spent on a K series is totally worth it if that's your power goal. Why do a motor swap then build it up. Unless it's a wicked crate motor :O

But I agree with dougie, the B series does have it's charm. :)

From what i've seen, both k20's and k24's with boltons make 140-150kw

[Symphorced]

From what i've seen, both k20's and k24's with boltons make 140-150kw

On a hub dyno?

[Benson]

No all on roller dyno's

[mugen_ctr]

just out of curiosity, which K24 are we talking about? the ADM K24A3? and with tune or not?

[Benson]

Yes k24a3. 4-1 headers, 3inch system, VTC upgrade, RBC with 70mm t/b, SRI with filter and a good tune. I've done a few before. Its a proven combo

[nigs]

I want a K :(
Facking gearboxes are so pro.
While dyno numbers from a B to K may not be much. In real world terms, the K is so much quicker.

[GSi_PSi]

^ so true , really feels good to have short ratioed 6 gears ...... .but now when i jump in my integra after driving the k20 i almost always nearly put it into reverse before i remember its b series :(...lol

[jdmTYPE R]

personally b series is alot more fun then k around the track and sounds like a honda engine...with the write combo and gear set u can outrun the ks with bolts on

[dougie_504]

I just think the B-series is a much nicer looking and sounding engine. I don't need 150kw/atw to have fun...

[civicboy84]

I just think the B-series is a much nicer looking and sounding engine. I don't need 150kw/atw to have fun...

but it helps ;)

[pinoy-boi]

just remember that, a fully modified B-series (I'm talking about "the lot") might be as quick as a stock K-series (except bolt ons and ECU) but u have to wonder about the reliability of a worked B-series compared to the stock K-series.. coming from exp. I spent about the same amount of oney on a B20 build. pushing 150kws atw, but if i could do it all over again i would hve spent it on a K-series. newer technology less worked and producing the same amount or less but running quicker times... Plus you get decent fuel economy lol.

just my 2 cents

[civicboy84]

just remember that, a fully modified B-series (I'm talking about "the lot") might be as quick as a stock K-series (except bolt ons and ECU) but u have to wonder about the reliability of a worked B-series compared to the stock K-series.. coming from exp. I spent about the same amount of oney on a B20 build. pushing 150kws atw, but if i could do it all over again i would hve spent it on a K-series. newer technology less worked and producing the same amount or less but running quicker times... Plus you get decent fuel economy lol.

just my 2 cents


well said

[dougie_504]

just remember that, a fully modified B-series (I'm talking about "the lot") might be as quick as a stock K-series (except bolt ons and ECU) but u have to wonder about the reliability of a worked B-series compared to the stock K-series.. coming from exp. I spent about the same amount of oney on a B20 build. pushing 150kws atw, but if i could do it all over again i would hve spent it on a K-series. newer technology less worked and producing the same amount or less but running quicker times... Plus you get decent fuel economy lol.

just my 2 cents


Yeah me too TBH

[TODA AU]

High output B's can be very reliable, it just depends who builds them.
Many places B/S about their engines outputs & reliability & most offer no warranty.
Same can be said for K series builds too though.
I can think of one shop in particular that constantly pumps out low output, unreliable B's & K's.
Yet they're quite popular & busy.

[jdm18c]

b series roar!! FTW!

[Alexplicit]

well said adrian. im glad i chose you first time, im not sure there would be many tuners in the world that would happily take a phone call off a customer at least once a week pestering you about honda's :P

[u mad?]

High output B's can be very reliable, it just depends who builds them.
Many places B/S about their engines outputs & reliability & most offer no warranty.
Same can be said for K series builds too though.
I can think of one shop in particular that constantly pumps out low output, unreliable B's & K's.
Yet they're quite popular & busy.
...like who?

[Lukey]

pm him jroid

[hisoka]

look into e85 conversion, people in America are running 150kw at the wheels on b series with supporting mods.

it allows some serious compression, just a idea anyway, if power figures are what you want

all about money in the end lol~

[nigs]

you suck at driving a B series.

[iijjee]

My B18CR has made about 128fwkW on two diff dynos in two diff states.

US Prestige headers, short ram intake, no ps or AC, 2.5" mandrel bent, Microtech.

Look forward to driving a k-swap EG one day (have owned 6 converted EG's!) but even with this power and easy high 13 sec QMile the wheelspin is not ridiculous, even in the wet. First is not the gear to stomp at 5000rpm but the rest of the gears have great throttle response but never need a lot of peddling! I'm guessing, and have seen youtube vids that support this, the K-swap civics are a little less driveable in this respect.

Like any set up, though, the more power, the more driver skill and experience needed!!!

Is this true? My old H22 Civic felt like a big motor strapped to a stiff skatebaord. Is a K20 like this? Or does it feel close to stock, like a B series? Guessing it's more like the H22...?

Just another angle - depending on what you're going to use the car for! Driveability is the reason my car cleans up three quarters of the high powered street cars on hillclimbs and the B18CR has this in spades!!!

[GSi_PSi]

Well my experiences with jdm 160kw k20 eg2 , first gear on the street is pretty useless if you use WOT , but feathering the accellerator and planting when traction is gained works well, im running on street legal semis (azenis) seems to grip pretty well, every other gear has great traction. Overall its not as bad as i thought it was going to be, but tyres plays a big role as i swapped my integras wheels on the car to try it out, lol it was a burnout machine, 1st,2nd,3rd frying up.

[hisoka]

you suck at driving a B series.

yeah to much power for me~

god damn street racers

[Benson]

My B18CR has made about 128fwkW on two diff dynos in two diff states.

US Prestige headers, short ram intake, no ps or AC, 2.5" mandrel bent, Microtech.

Look forward to driving a k-swap EG one day (have owned 6 converted EG's!) but even with this power and easy high 13 sec QMile the wheelspin is not ridiculous, even in the wet. First is not the gear to stomp at 5000rpm but the rest of the gears have great throttle response but never need a lot of peddling! I'm guessing, and have seen youtube vids that support this, the K-swap civics are a little less driveable in this respect.

Like any set up, though, the more power, the more driver skill and experience needed!!!

Is this true? My old H22 Civic felt like a big motor strapped to a stiff skatebaord. Is a K20 like this? Or does it feel close to stock, like a B series? Guessing it's more like the H22...?

Just another angle - depending on what you're going to use the car for! Driveability is the reason my car cleans up three quarters of the high powered street cars on hillclimbs and the B18CR has this in spades!!!

Over the year playing around with different Honda engines, the K-series will have to be the funniest and easiest to drive for both daily and track. The B-series just lack the torque, H22a is a little heavy in the front end and has crap transmission.

Once you drive a K-series you'll never look back at the B-series. If you come down to the Honda Nats, ill let you drive my road car with a basic K24 swap

And who said K-series has no vtec roar? I'll let u_mad response to this

[iijjee]

Would love to drve a kswap... One day - when the kids grow up!!!!

I didn't think a 2.4 in an EG or EK (which only ever had a 1.6L max cap) would be legal, even with engineering??? Must be though!

[EG5]

.

Once you drive a K-series you'll never look back at the B-series.

Agreed with this one .
11.82 sec @ 113mph here ( EG hatch + Stock k24a3 with 50 degree vtc , 6 speed dc5r gearbox with bolt on mods , Kpro , Slicks )

[mugen_ctr]

Agreed with this one .
11.82 sec @ 113mph here ( EG hatch + Stock k24a3 with 50 degree vtc , 6 speed dc5r gearbox with bolt on mods , Kpro , Slicks )

what advantages does the dc5r GB have over the standard K24a3 6 speed manual, besides the lsd? still learning my k-series lol

[mocchi]

what advantages does the dc5r GB have over the standard K24a3 6 speed manual, besides the lsd? still learning my k-series lol

shorter gears 2-6, more acceleration.
does audm dc5r gbox have lsd? i dont think they do.

[GSi_PSi]

4.7fd LSD shorter ratio gearbox. Yes it does have LSD, only the fn2r early model audm didn't come LSD and was 6-speed. Accord euro is 5-speed

[damienm]

accord euro is 6 speed

[mugen_ctr]

4.7fd LSD shorter ratio gearbox. Yes it does have LSD, only the fn2r early model audm didn't come LSD and was 6-speed. Accord euro is 5-speed

i believe the cl7 came in 5 speed, but cl9 are all 6 speed or 5 speed auto, correct if im wrong

[Benson]

We need a K-series vs B-series discussion thread

More people needs to be educated!

[mocchi]

We need a K-series vs B-series discussion thread

More people needs to be educated!

educate me! start a thread naooo!!

[Jccck]

We need a K-series vs B-series discussion thread

More people needs to be educated!

I think we need some reliable info on pros/cons/vs for the K, B, F and H series motors.
Surely we can steal some off another forum and compile it here lol

[dougie_504]

^

Better yet, add it to the OzHonda Wiki for future reference!

[u mad?]

Over the year playing around with different Honda engines, the K-series will have to be the funniest and easiest to drive for both daily and track. The B-series just lack the torque, H22a is a little heavy in the front end and has crap transmission.

Once you drive a K-series you'll never look back at the B-series. If you come down to the Honda Nats, ill let you drive my road car with a basic K24 swap

And who said K-series has no vtec roar? I'll let u_mad response to this
haha they sure do roar alright!



after going k i laugh at the idea of doing up a b lmao, so much more power especially mid range

raced a wrx tonight with 180kw at all four wheels. was side by side with it all the way up to 200 then he slowly crept away after my friend didnt get 5th in too well. plus i had a heavy passenger. would never have stood a chance with the old b18c7

k all the way, fuk b series lol

(done on private road)

[rhys.l]

Since when were Hondas all about power at the wheels and straight line speed?

B series for rawness, sound, revs and charisma. But I'm obviously one of those uneducated types :)

[Jccck]

Since when were Hondas all about power at the wheels and straight line speed?

B series for rawness, sound, revs and charisma. But I'm obviously one of those uneducated types :)

You almost always get a deeper, more throaty sound from a larger displacement engine.. Therefore F, H and K are for sound.. B and D are more tinny.
Revs, they're all about the same after you've poured some money into the valve train.
Charisma? Nothing says 'blow me' like a super quick Honda.. Regardless of the engine letter =P

[dougie_504]

Hmmm, personally I think the smaller/older the engine the more it says 'blow me' haha. Not that any of us do any street racing...

[mugen_ctr]

haha they sure do roar alright!



after going k i laugh at the idea of doing up a b lmao, so much more power especially mid range

raced a wrx tonight with 180kw at all four wheels. was side by side with it all the way up to 200 then he slowly crept away after my friend didnt get 5th in too well. plus i had a heavy passenger. would never have stood a chance with the old b18c7

k all the way, fuk b series lol

(done on private road)

Too many factors to say which is the faster, better yet, a time slip will show ur skills and how fast it is :)

[GSi_PSi]

u mad , did you buy the byp boys k24 package?

pretty long private road to do 200+ lol jks

[barefootbonzai]

Always the same rubbish... Obviously nobody knows that a D-Series pwns ALL!

[u mad?]

nah gsi-psi i got a there jdm k20 to keep it legal for p plates, couldn't be happier

[GSi_PSi]

nice choice haha, how you liking the 6-gears?, 3rd gear is awesome aye just pulls so quick..

[Vvvtec]

nah gsi-psi i got a there jdm k20 to keep it legal for p plates, couldn't be happier

pics!!!

[u mad?]

nice choice haha, how you liking the 6-gears?, 3rd gear is awesome aye just pulls so quick..
man i love the 6 speed. so smooth and the ratios are excellent!

yeah 3 gear is amazing, but then again so is 2nd... and 4th and 5th! lol even 6th, it just keeps pulling

pics!!!
http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i477/umad91/03072011060.jpg

[dougie_504]

Mmmmmm nice... I really must try the K some day. I'll never do a B or D N/A again. Either K or boost/Nissan.

[Vvvtec]

That's sick as u mad. So good.

K series is definitely the way to go these days. no doubt whatsoever. Luckily for everyone else, the more popular and common K swaps get, the more costs/prices are inevitably going to come down.

It's hard to believe that the K series is already a decade old!

[u mad?]

Mmmmmm nice... I really must try the K some day. I'll never do a B or D N/A again. Either K or boost/Nissan.
you have to experiance it for your self to see what its like, no doubt you'll want to go k after that drive lol

That's sick as u mad. So good.

K series is definitely the way to go these days. no doubt whatsoever. Luckily for everyone else, the more popular and common K swaps get, the more costs/prices are inevitably going to come down.

It's hard to believe that the K series is already a decade old!

thanks man!

[iijjee]

As my sig says, I need both, revs and boost! The R for revs, throttle response and nimble, lithe handling, a bigger turbo'd 2.5L XT Forester for boost, lunching on V8's, overtaking and gravel runs!

H cars still do what no others do!!

[_bORdO_]

cant see the picture~!
shattered.

[u mad?]

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i477/umad91/My%20DC2R/03072011060.jpg

[mugen_ctr]

can the standard fuel pumps in either ek or dc support the k20? or did u upgrade it? And was it necessary to swap the FPR, since u have aftermarket one, cheers man, interesting to read up about k20 swaps :D

[_bORdO_]

^^ actually yeh, im interested too... it would seem the regulator would be changed in order to tune it properly?

what are the chances you could giv us a write up of the parts you used or PM *enter nervous laugh here* ahaha
that is, if its ok with you of course.

a wrx is 100kg heavier (give or take depending on the model)
& to stay side by side is very good... in my books at least.

[Vvvtec]

Well I've gotta say, 140ish? Kw at the wheels n/a keeping side by side with a 180kw turbo awd is very good in my books :)

But yeah, u mad I'm MEGA keen to know details, I'm planning on going K within the next year :)

[Benson]

can the standard fuel pumps in either ek or dc support the k20? or did u upgrade it? And was it necessary to swap the FPR, since u have aftermarket one, cheers man, interesting to read up about k20 swaps :D

The stock fuel pump is sufficient enough for a standard K-swap. Yes its neccessary to run a FPR

[fatboyz39]

^^ actually yeh, im interested too... it would seem the regulator would be changed in order to tune it properly?

what are the chances you could giv us a write up of the parts you used or PM *enter nervous laugh here* ahaha
that is, if its ok with you of course.

a wrx is 100kg heavier (give or take depending on the model)
& to stay side by side is very good... in my books at least.

Depending on model WRX. The early model wrx are quite light and with 180kw there quite fast. Had a ek k24 (140kw atw) raced my mates wrx 05 with 175kw atw (@ WSID) he pulled 2 car lenghts.

[_bORdO_]

Depending on model WRX. The early model wrx are quite light and with 180kw there quite fast. Had a ek k24 (140kw atw) raced my mates wrx 05 with 175kw atw (@ WSID) he pulled 2 car lenghts.

yeh your right i think the 05 WRX are just under 1.2T
your ek would weigh..? around 1.1T..? somewhere there, so i think you did very well also.




p.s
i think we've hijacked this thread completely
:wave:

[TODA AU]

This thread is in desperate need of moderation...
Too much piss & dribble & way off topic.

[GSi_PSi]

Toda post the 170kw b series for reference sake in here :P

[crobaa]

Can anybody tell me if theres a handling difference due to more weight of the k series being over the nose? I know k series is quicker in a straight line but how useable is the power when cornering? K series lap times that much higher than bseries?

[dougie_504]

Apparently not that much heavier than a B-series and handles well. This is just what I've heard, not talking from experience.

[Vvvtec]

Isn't the K series actually lighter than the B series?

[mocchi]

Citation Envoyé par locash of Honda-Tech.com
As I was removing the B20VTEC from my 99 Integra to install a JDM K20A with the new Hasport EG/DC K-Series mount kit (shameless plug), it dawned on me that I still had not seen any real numbers regarding the weight differences of these things. I dug out my trusty Longacre corner balance scales, zero'd them out, and tossed the motors on em. I made sure to take pictures of the scale readings, name them, save them to the pc, and clear out the camera before I did the 2nd motor. I also tried to keep the motors as similiar as possible, neither had an exhaust manifold of any kind, or an A/C compressor. The B-Series motor DID have a power steering pump, and the A/C torque mount, so factor in 5 lbs or so on top of the numbers below..

B-Series engine/trans: 401 pounds
K-Series engine/trans: 403 pounds

In conclusion, these are surprising numbers, I figured (like most I bet) that the K-Series motor would be lighter. I'll weigh a few more B and K series swaps in the coming weeks and see what else I find.

that was b20, should compare it with b16 for proper eg/ek weight comparison.

[Benson]

Can anybody tell me if theres a handling difference due to more weight of the k series being over the nose? I know k series is quicker in a straight line but how useable is the power when cornering? K series lap times that much higher than bseries?

With a few tweaks to the suspension to compensate for the extra weight on the driver side, the K-series does not put off the balance. Check out the lap times for all K-series cars vs B-series.

[crobaa]

How about weight over the nose causing understeer? Mounting angle leans it over there right? Not to mention the manifold etc.. On that side too.

With regards to power, my eg has b18cr struggles to put the power down under hard cornering so I'd imagine the extra power from a k is useless other than in a straight line. Even with good suspension setup I could never imagine it being useable power in the bends

[Benson]

How about weight over the nose causing understeer? Mounting angle leans it over there right? Not to mention the manifold etc.. On that side too.

With regards to power, my eg has b18cr struggles to put the power down under hard cornering so I'd imagine the extra power from a k is useless other than in a straight line. Even with good suspension setup I could never imagine it being useable power in the bends

Its all in the suspension setup. We have no issues with understeer and putting the power down with 280kw's. You gotta remember your foot controls wheelspin as well. A good suspension set-up will do wonders!

[nigs]

^^
Get a LSD, control your throttle, check alignment, get better tyres and suspension.
It's all relative. Common sense.

Add to that, it's still N/A. Power is linear, unlike a low comp turbo motor. If you're still wheel spinning after than, then you're not doing it right.

[crobaa]

That's the point I'm making, if you can't use all the throttle on a b18 what good is having more power in the corners

[_bORdO_]

That's the point I'm making, if you can't use all the throttle on a b18 what good is having more power in the corners
really man? think about your question...


remember your foot controls wheelspin as well.

do you think F1 drivers go full throttle in hard corners?
No they dont & they have the best rated tires and most probably suspension set ups also

if you were using all the throttle going in2 a corner you'd have one bloody slow arse car there...

[damienm]

That's the point I'm making, if you can't use all the throttle on a b18 what good is having more power in the corners

lol i guess youve never been on a track before

[mugen_ctr]

Ok slighty off topic, but how does the Civic Sports K20 compare to that of the Euro K24? Besides the obvious, higher torque rating and power, an better gears..... I havent heard much talk from these newer K20, despite the fact that a older B16a2 makes the exact same power with much less displacement, kinda of a step back imo with the newer gen civic sports.

[mocchi]

really man? think about your question...



do you think F1 drivers go full throttle in corners?
No they dont & they have the best rated tires and most probably suspension set ups also

if you were using all the throttle going in2 a corner you'd have one bloody slow arse car there...
hahaha crobaa = 0, bordo = 1

[dougie_504]

Slow in, fast out - not the other way around. Of course the better your brakes are the faster you can go in...

But hey guys, let's keep on topic (if possible).

[crobaa]

I know how to drive in a corner, I'm just saying that without a pretty decent suspension setup you won't be able to use the additional power of a k series in a tight corner. Of course everyone on the forum is Michael Schumacher when their behind a keyboard and screen though

[Vvvtec]

Well man, if you've got the cash to go K swap, I don't think you'll cheap out on something fundamental such as suspension and brake setup. I do understand what your trying to say though.

[aznboiio1]

Ok slighty off topic, but how does the Civic Sports K20 compare to that of the Euro K24? Besides the obvious, higher torque rating and power, an better gears..... I havent heard much talk from these newer K20, despite the fact that a older B16a2 makes the exact same power with much less displacement, kinda of a step back imo with the newer gen civic sports.

the fd2 has a diff head set up, like the k20a3, built for fuel efficiency :)

[Parsout]

This is turning into a good little discussion, personally I like the B series, it's shouty, raw and unrefined - feels like a bit of an animal trying to relentlessly get out from the car. Whereas the K series is refined, smoother changeover, not quite as high in the revs, but still - you look down briefly at the speedo and think 'already doing XXk's, what the!'.

They both have their good points, and I agree with Mr Toda that both engines when built up cleverly/right would still have their own highlights.

[damienm]

I know how to drive in a corner, I'm just saying that without a pretty decent suspension setup you won't be able to use the additional power of a k series in a tight corner. Of course everyone on the forum is Michael Schumacher when their behind a keyboard and screen though

without decent suspension you wont be able to use the power of a d or b series in a corner..
Ive swapped my b series for a k series because of the time it would make up on the straights. Obviously corner speeds would be around the same if i was to use the same chassis setup.
And LOL at needing to be schumi to understand simple things like this.

[BlitZ]

There is one secret to Honda performance....
Fit the biggest motor into the lightest chasis, period!

Hondas are fairly well tuned from factory and it takes a tone of money to get it slightly better in NA form.
Capacity is king...

If you have been on the forum as long as I have, it has progressed from: D16Y<B16A<B18C<B20frank<H2B<K20<K24.


The main reason hondas are getting faster is only because engines are getting bigger...

Good examples: Have you ever seen a NA b16a off its chops? would proabably get beaten by an unmoded H2b ehehehe

[Mr.Brightside]

theres no replacement for displacement :)

[BlitZ]

theres no replacement for displacement :)

Words of a smart man... every year someone will figure a way to get more capacity.
If honda ever made a K30, no one would ever consider the k20 or K24 ever again ehheheh

[trism]

Well its only a matter of time until j swaps start coming up more.

[Slaz]

theres no replacement for displacement :)

I tend to disagree, there just arnt that many quality builds due to budget or where people spend their money, which is fair enough, we all have one and people choose who they think will be the best for the job, other issue is a lot of people believe everything they read and if they have those parts and put it together, they should make decent power, which is rarely the case.

Displacement however, especially in the case of a K24, is cheap power for the money, you cannot argue that.

Soon ill be putting a 1.8ltr B18 togther on what i think is a very low to average spend for building a motor and hope to get somewhere up near that 140 range which few do after spending alot more money, will be sure to have it up when done. :thumbsup:

[iijjee]

There are plenty of those V6 engined EG's on youtube from the US. Bigger displacement might make faster in a drag but def not when it comes to the balance needed for high speed cornering and track-work.

Now, I think that earlier I posted a question about the legality, even with a mod-plate, of a 2.4L EG (which is a 50% increase in capacity from largest engine fitted to this model). I thought the regs said 15% or so??? I must be wrong! Explain ! ? !

[Slaz]

There are plenty of those V6 engined EG's on youtube from the US. Bigger displacement might make faster in a drag but def not when it comes to the balance needed for high speed cornering and track-work.

Now, I think that earlier I posted a question about the legality, even with a mod-plate, of a 2.4L EG (which is a 50% increase in capacity from largest engine fitted to this model). I thought the regs said 15% or so??? I must be wrong! Explain ! ? !

The 15% rule applies to engine changes of the same make fitted to a vehicle until a engineers report is required as due to the capacity increase you will have to now address suspension to carry the extra weight, braking capacity and so on, not much different to the rules of fitting a turbo in the eyes of the rta and rules.

[iijjee]

OK! That's clear! I think I remember now that un-engineered changes up to 15% over the max capacity normally fitted to that chassis (from the same manufacturer) don't need engineering.

I just wondered, since the EG and DC2 chassis are meant to be the same (???) whether the 15% would reach to 1.15 times 1834cc (or whatever the capacity of DC2 and DC2R's are) which is just over 2.1L, therefore - technically - allowing the use of a K20 in an EG.

[iijjee]

Or is it the model, not the chassis that engineers would look at???

[Slaz]

They look at the capacity of the motor fitted to the vehicle you are trying to pass, so 1.5 or 1.6 EG, max motor 1.725ltr or 1.84ltr if fitted with a 1.6, so no k20 allowed without engineering it.

Dc2 being a B18 and 1.8, 2.07 ltrs allowable so K20 no prob.

[iijjee]

OK! So DC2 base makes more sense for a K swap unless ultimate weight reduction or registration are not an issue you care about!

Good to know!

[crobaa]

I know 1.8 internals fit in 1.6 block so you can register the car as a 1.6 even though it's really 1.8. Wonder if k24 internals fit in a k20?

[BlitZ]

I know 1.8 internals fit in 1.6 block so you can register the car as a 1.6 even though it's really 1.8. Wonder if k24 internals fit in a k20?

Rumor mill.... Maybe only b16b... B16a is a shorter block

[BlitZ]

There are plenty of those V6 engined EG's on youtube from the US. Bigger displacement might make faster in a drag but def not when it comes to the balance needed for high speed cornering and track-work.



Don't compare it to cast iron American metal blocks... B18c and k24 don't weigh that much different

[crobaa]

How about increasing bore/stroke on k20?

[GSi_PSi]

mugen has done it already with their RR. 2.2 Litre Stroker kit on the JDM K20A
180kw
http://www.zcars.com.au/images/civic-mugen-rr-engine1.jpg

[crobaa]

Is the kit available for purchase? It's probably a huge rip off anyway. I'm sure another company would make a kit for it too

[Vvvtec]

2.4l bottom end??

[dougie_504]

I know 1.8 internals fit in 1.6 block so you can register the car as a 1.6 even though it's really 1.8. Wonder if k24 internals fit in a k20?

I think some of the B16B internals might fit into a B18C, but B16A I doubt it.

D17 SOHC crank definitely fits into the D16 SOHC block so you can run a D17Y1/Y8 etc while it's registered as a 1.6. WOTAM though, and nobody would be able to realise how 'cool' your setup is <lol>

Just get a real stroker kit with new pistons etc...

[GSi_PSi]

You can put a 89mm B20,GSi Crank into the B16B making it a ~1.9L

[Slaz]

Is the kit available for purchase? It's probably a huge rip off anyway. I'm sure another company would make a kit for it too

Toda make that kit fitted to the mugen car.

Also as far as bore and stroke increases, via sleeves and crank, it can all be done, B series can go 86 x 95 if displacement is what you're after.

[BlitZ]

back on topic.. 140kw would be pretty hard to get without good increases to compression to run agro cams..

best cams u can run without high comp pistons would be ~bspec (with matching valve train). Expect 120-130kw depending on dyno.

[mugen_ctr]

Toda make that kit fitted to the mugen car.

Also as far as bore and stroke increases, via sleeves and crank, it can all be done, B series can go 86 x 95 if displacement is what you're after.

in saying that, how far can u stroke a b-series? 2.1? 2.2 liters? But also boring out the block?

[EG5]

How about increasing bore/stroke on k20?
Getting K24A3 from Honda Accord Euro is still the best bang for your bucks to increase displacement.
Price started from $1000 - 1700 for the long block only and you dont need k20a head.
Just upgrade your valve train and you can push it to 8000 rpm.

[fatboyz39]

Question should be "Will a 140kw B series beat a 140kw K series? "

Shall we put a poll up? LOL.

[dougie_504]

in saying that, how far can u stroke a b-series? 2.1? 2.2 liters? But also boring out the block?


Pretty sure I have a mag somewhere of a bloke who has an EG with a B18CR stroked to 2.1L with ITR cams and upgraded valvetrain. Allegedly it chomped a few EVO's.

[BlitZ]

Pretty sure I have a mag somewhere of a bloke who has an EG with a B18CR stroked to 2.1L with ITR cams and upgraded valvetrain. Allegedly it chomped a few EVO's.

Probably would on STD... But the evo with egay Ihe and tune would be about 200kw atw on all 4... Also the traction out of corners ... And the launch at the drags...

[dougie_504]

Yeah, hence I use the word 'allegedly'. I'm sure an EVO would have so much more potential and would be a much better car to build for the track, even an EVO1 (so sexy).

[nigs]

Question should be "Will a 140kw B series beat a 140kw K series? "

Shall we put a poll up? LOL.

You know the answer is no.
Tis all about the gearing!
Rolled up against a K24 EG and won BUT!! It was a 5spd. If 6spd, no chance.

[TODA AU]

back on topic.. 140kw would be pretty hard to get without good increases to compression to run agro cams..

best cams u can run without high comp pistons would be ~bspec (with matching valve train). Expect 120-130kw depending on dyno.

To a point, you’re right cause for many it is really hard for many to meet a 140kw power target without upping the compression,
But in reality, it’s not really that hard at all… & here’s how you do it.
Using an AUDM B18C7 engine as an example, the only things that need to be changed are as follows:
Spec B cams, springs, pulleys / Mugen airbox (A real one, not a copy)
TODA header (Not a copy or cheap substitute) / 60mm ~65mm exhaust system & 100cel metal cat
ECU, fuel pump & fuel pressure regulator
& the key... (This is what gets you over the line) - CNC 5 angle valve job
The angles used are quite different to the std 3 angle (30deg / 45deg / 60deg) seats found in the B.
The benefit is greatly improve flow a low lift values.
This combined with “secret squirrel” to the intake ports is all that need to be done. (Some things are secret :zip:)
+ Obviously a good tune
Done right, you’ll hit 140kw every time

Also for 140 at the wheels with a std bottom end B18C7, what you don’t need to do is:
Port the head / Change the intake manifold / Change the throttle body / Use plastic intake gaskets / Fit wacky earth kits


in saying that, how far can u stroke a b-series? 2.1? 2.2 liters? But also boring out the block?
Slaz just told you, 86mm bore & 95mm stroke which works out to 2207cc
Maybe ok for drag racing but not ideal for circuit use.
IMO, the best B-series combo by a long way is 85mm bore & 87.2mm stroke – 1979cc

[TODA AU]

Stock bottom end B18C2 with 140kw...
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?91415-Cammed-Motors-Specs-DYNO-Graph-Mandatory/page46

[mocchi]

To a point, you’re right cause for many it is really hard for many to meet a 140kw power target without upping the compression,
But in reality, it’s not really that hard at all… & here’s how you do it.
Using an AUDM B18C7 engine as an example, the only things that need to be changed are as follows:
Spec B cams, springs, pulleys / Mugen airbox (A real one, not a copy)
TODA header (Not a copy or cheap substitute) / 60mm ~65mm exhaust system & 100cel metal cat
ECU, fuel pump & fuel pressure regulator
& the key... (This is what gets you over the line) - CNC 5 angle valve job
The angles used are quite different to the std 3 angle (30deg / 45deg / 60deg) seats found in the B.
The benefit is greatly improve flow a low lift values.
This combined with “secret squirrel” to the intake ports is all that need to be done. (Some things are secret :zip:)
+ Obviously a good tune
Done right, you’ll hit 140kw every time

Also for 140 at the wheels with a std bottom end B18C7, what you don’t need to do is:
Port the head / Change the intake manifold / Change the throttle body / Use plastic intake gaskets / Fit wacky earth kits


Slaz just told you, 86mm bore & 95mm stroke which works out to 2207cc
Maybe ok for drag racing but not ideal for circuit use.
IMO, the best B-series combo by a long way is 85mm bore & 87.2mm stroke – 1979cc

how much does boring cost generally? do you always check for straightness of deck and measure bore size after boring?

[TODA AU]

how much does boring cost generally? do you always check for straightness of deck and measure bore size after boring?
Depending on who & how it's done,
You can spend anywhere from $80 to $450 on a bore & hone for an inline 4cyl engine.
Cheap end is straight bore & hone, upper end is bore & hone with dummy head attached. (Incl plateau hone - 0.0001" tolerance)

Deck check - always...
Measure - always....
Never trust the machine shop, even if you work there :p

[Alexplicit]

every single time you speak adrian it always somehow makes me want to spend money :(

[TODA AU]

every single time you speak adrian it always somehow makes me want to spend money :(
139kw stock bottom end B18C7 dyno sheet added...
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?91415-Cammed-Motors-Specs-DYNO-Graph-Mandatory&p=3073407#post3073407
NB, this was using my previous porting method which worked quite well.
But my new "secrect squirel :zip:" method works better... :thumbsup:

[Slaz]

139kw stock bottom end B18C7 dyno sheet added...
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?91415-Cammed-Motors-Specs-DYNO-Graph-Mandatory&p=3073407#post3073407
NB, this was using my previous porting method which worked quite well.
But my new "secrect squirel :zip:" method works better... :thumbsup:
Lock me for trying the new squirel on a basic budget build for my daily, will be in touch soon Adrian! :thumbsup: