Spoon Sub Frame Rigid Collar Kit?

[Alvis]

Hi guys :thumbsup:

Curious - has anyone fitted a Spoon sub frame rigid collar kit to their ek?

I've done a bit of homework to start the discussion. Any thoughts and opinions on this simple mod?


What is it?
The Spoon Sub Frame Rigid Collar kit is simple to fit and low cost. Rigid Collars ease into position without affecting the basic geometry of the body.

The way the Rigid Collar works is simple:
* Bolt holes through the chassis panel and sub frame are too big as they were designed for ease of production in the factory

*When the car leaves the factory, everything is new and tight and the chassis hardly moves

*After a while, the bolts become slightly looser and movement between the panels begins. This is why an older vehicle fitted with new bushes, Shocks and springs, still doesn't behave like a new car.

*The Rigid Collar is an aluminium washer with a square outside Taper to increase adhesion on the Thinner flange portion in the middle. This fits between the moving panels and with a properly sized bolt (and Bolt Hole as part of the Rigid Collar) is crushed into place when tightened, joining the two panels and stopping movement forever.

http://www.spoonsports.co.uk/product.php?make=HONDA&model=CIVIC&type=1996-00+CIVIC&level1=SUSPENSION+%26+STABILITY&level2=SUB-FRAME+RIGID+COLLAR+KITS&level3=&id=6013



What does it do?

http://youtu.be/zWyUD6UXfog

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m579/apalmucci/Post%20Misc%20Honda%20Images/Picture1.jpg




What are the guys on ek9.org saying?

http://www.ek9.org/forum/suspension/31494-rigid-collar-kit-spoon-2.html

[exquisit]

thats interesting
if the subframe moves that much without the collar, i wonder if it wont shear the collar as they seem to be quite thin

[Alvis]

thats interesting
if the subframe moves that much without the collar, i wonder if it wont shear the collar as they seem to be quite thin

Yeh I've never seen this before either.

I'm no engineer but I've read it again and looked at the video and I think it's made of aluminium because it actually "crushes" the collar into the bolt hole.

Am I understanding that right or not?

[Alvis]

And further to the above - here are some Q&A:

QUESTION.1
Once you install them and you have to take the sub frame down again, is it advised that you install new collars? or is it fine to re use the same ones? reason I ask is because it seems to have a similar effect to a crush washer and you are always supposed to replace them once used. Also, you guys have them for the front and rear subframes?

ANSWER.1
You should be able to reuse them because it'll re-crush again but just like crush washers for drain bolts, you can only use them so many times before the material is too thin to reform again. Each set comes with collars for both the front and rear subframes.



QUESTION.2
Can we get an idea how much work it would take to install these please.

ANSWER.2
There are a couple ways you can install them. The hardest way is if you don't have access to a lift you will need to put the car on stands and lower the subframe by loosening all the bolts without letting them fall out. Once you lower the subframe enough to fit the collars in, take out one bolt at a time and install one collar at a time then put each bolt back on right afterward to support the subframe then move on to the next bolt. You'll then need to slowly tighten each bolt a little at a time in a cross pattern to move the subframe back up while make sure the collars are slotted in properly.

Otherwise, a shop that has a lift and a platform jack, it's a quick install and take about 15 minutes.



Source: http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/851889-spoon-subframe-rigid-collar-video/

[e240]

I've got them for my dc2 and on just looking at the design, I'd say good money making ploy otherwise bullshit. Some of the holding.collars are just 2mm tall and 1mm thick. Top that off made from aluminium like what you find in bunnings. If there's shear, this will shear right off.
And Oh.. dc2r rigid collars for sale... Hahaha

[TheSaint]

first of all ... why are they using an insight as a test bench for spoon racing products? lol

i will show my lecturer this next week and see what his thoughts are =)

[Alvis]

I've got them for my dc2 and on just looking at the design, I'd say good money making ploy otherwise bullshit. Some of the holding.collars are just 2mm tall and 1mm thick. Top that off made from aluminium like what you find in bunnings. If there's shear, this will shear right off.
And Oh.. dc2r rigid collars for sale... Hahaha

Thanks for sharing your experiences with them - good to hear peoples experience. I would have a guess that the type R Civic/Integras would have come with a tighter fit than say a standard EK1/4? I don't know... but maybe that's why they show a Prius to exaggerate the situation... BUT in saying that see below comment to Saint:



first of all ... why are they using an insight as a test bench for spoon racing products? lol

i will show my lecturer this next week and see what his thoughts are =)

Thanks mate - would be interesting to get his thoughts...



Now... for some more homework: the pic you see below is from a Civic FD3 (not a Prius lol) - check these out:

In photo 2 and 3 you can clearly see a fairly large gap where the bolt connects the subframe to the chassis and in photo 4 with the rigid collars installed. Pretty clear evidence it does tighten things up and no matter how good your coilovers/suspension are, without this there is always going to be flex.

What the end result is on the road for an EK1 I'm not sure... but you would make the assumption it could only make the geometry of the car better...


Photo. 1
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m579/apalmucci/Post%20Misc%20Honda%20Images/spooncollar1fd3.jpg


Photo. 2
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m579/apalmucci/Post%20Misc%20Honda%20Images/spooncollar2fd3.jpg


Photo. 3
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m579/apalmucci/Post%20Misc%20Honda%20Images/spooncollar3fd3.jpg


Photo.4
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m579/apalmucci/Post%20Misc%20Honda%20Images/spooncollar4fd3.jpg
Source of photos: http://spoon-mechanic.seesaa.net/upload/detail/image/A3C6A3C4A3B3A5EAA5B8A5C3A5C8A3B1.jpg.html


Would be good to hear any more experiences/opinions guys... and excluding talking about price (we all know you pay for Spoon), if just the mod in itself would make an improvement to the car

[exquisit]

one thing they claim will definately be bullshit which is reduced indoor and outdoor noise

coz as with anything... the more rigid it is... the more vibration and noise is transmitted to the inside of the car

i rekon it will work... maybe not to the extent they claim... but it will help with subframe walk

[TheSaint]

actually - it should reduce noise if you think about it

your not stiffening your suspension or installing uprated bushes - you are increasing the strength of the joins from the sub frame to the chassis

[exquisit]

actually - it should reduce noise if you think about it

your not stiffening your suspension or installing uprated bushes - you are increasing the strength of the joins from the sub frame to the chassis

hmm... what is ur reasoning behind this?

[Alvis]

hmm... what is ur reasoning behind this?

not sure... I was thinking it could be reduced tyre noise? They said in the video it keeps the car more straight with less corrections needed in a straight line...?

[nigs]

oh noes....I just ordered a set =\
I figured an old EG could use something like this and from the video and pictures I see, the gap is substantial. Enough to warrant these collars.
Fair point, for $200 I'm starting to think these won't pay off. BAKA!

Thanks for making this thread though :p

[exquisit]

not sure... I was thinking it could be reduced tyre noise? They said in the video it keeps the car more straight with less corrections needed in a straight line...?

duno if it helps with less corrections in a straight line coz i doubt the subframe moves that much
but then you put subframe locks in nissans in the rear subframe... alot more road noise is transfered to the car
these would be the same

[Alvis]

duno if it helps with less corrections in a straight line coz i doubt the subframe moves that much
but then you put subframe locks in nissans in the rear subframe... alot more road noise is transfered to the car
these would be the same

ohh really... how does that work with the more noise? Personal experience?

[Alvis]

Further to above: this is a bit of a review of the collars from an FN2R Technical Forum article:

"Difference is suttle the up & down movement of the body & suspension is less & around corners the car squats slightly more, I had the spoon subframe brace installed at the same time so I would think this would have helped as well
The photos don't show this but you can see when you look in between body & subframe where the bolt fits, it is not centred in the hole which the collar fixes. No more clunking Yah"

Source: http://forum.fn2r.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=446

[exquisit]

ohh really... how does that work with the more noise? Personal experience?

yea this is personal experience with nissan rear subframes
mind you, they have a rubber bush pressed into the subframe to take out harshness but this encourages subframe slop

honda front subframes may not have slop so might reduce noise?duno...

Further to above: this is a bit of a review of the collars from an FN2R Technical Forum article:

"Difference is suttle the up & down movement of the body & suspension is less & around corners the car squats slightly more, I had the spoon subframe brace installed at the same time so I would think this would have helped as well
The photos don't show this but you can see when you look in between body & subframe where the bolt fits, it is not centred in the hole which the collar fixes. No more clunking Yah"

Source: http://forum.fn2r.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=446

yea this guy seems to rekon theres less noise

which points does the spoon subframe brace tie up?

[Alvis]

yea this guy seems to rekon theres less noise

which points does the spoon subframe brace tie up?

I don't know man, I tried searching but couldn't really come up with anything - might have to climb under the car to find out... but have a post on Honda-Tech so maybe the yanks know more than we do:


Ironically, the original thread was started by another member only a couple of days before this one!
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2942185&highlight=subframe+rigid+collar

[VicTiR]

Interesting thread - any thoughts on using simply crush washers instead? (Aluminium)

You wouldn't get the geometry improvement but it would be a damn sight cheaper than the spoon set-up. If it worked you could crush aluminium between the metal surfaces at key points around the chassis and get the 'welding' effect they talk about on the spoon video on youtube. Potentially could stiffen up old creaky chassis like on EGs or EKs

Just a thought

[Alvis]

Interesting thread - any thoughts on using simply crush washers instead? (Aluminium)

You wouldn't get the geometry improvement but it would be a damn sight cheaper than the spoon set-up. If it worked you could crush aluminium between the metal surfaces at key points around the chassis and get the 'welding' effect they talk about on the spoon video on youtube. Potentially could stiffen up old creaky chassis like on EGs or EKs

Just a thought

Yeh, it is an interesting thought... essentially I'm guessing that's what the spoon collars are - just like a crush washer. I might even ask my Dad what he thinks - he's a fitter and turner by trade and has restored his own car (Jensen Interceptor, with a Chyrsler 440 cubic V8 7.2L) a while back and with a lathe at home might be able to help...

Saint - any feedback from your lecturer at college?

[r3ckless]

Im interested in these too.. But im sitting on the fence atm.

[Alvis]

UPDATE: see comments from guys in the US:

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?p=45465102#post45465102

[VicTiR]

Yeh, it is an interesting thought... essentially I'm guessing that's what the spoon collars are - just like a crush washer. I might even ask my Dad what he thinks - he's a fitter and turner by trade and has restored his own car (Jensen Interceptor, with a Chyrsler 440 cubic V8 7.2L) a while back and with a lathe at home might be able to help...

Saint - any feedback from your lecturer at college?

A backyard solution is potentially really cheap. For the cost of a sheet of aluminium or some washers and some wrenching it might be worth someone having a crack. If you know someone with a lathe even better.

I discussed it with a Mech Eng mate of mine and he said to keep the surfaces properly painted before installing as the aluminium next to certain types of steel can lead to rusting issues. Though I'd suggest this would only occur if the surfaces aren't dry when you press them together as rust needs moisture as well as a contact or 'circuit' to allow electron flow (painting provides a barrier).

[nigs]

Just installed mine.
Pretty damn good improvement for a 20 year old car!
My 14kg/mm springs no longer feel 14kg :p

IMO, worth it if you have the coin. Purely a driving experience gain, soz hardparkers.

[exquisit]

can u elaborate plz
also what car do you have/mods/etc

[nigs]

Not sure why it matters what I have....but anyway.
EG4, Ohlins DFV 14/6.

Currently running 14kg/mm springs in the front, you can sometimes get quiet a harsh ride when matched with bad shocks. The Ohlins aren't too bad but you sometimes get that "crash" when hitting big bumps at speed.
The collar kit softens this soooo much! Basically taking the edge off a harsh ride. Springs definitely don't feel like 14kg items anymore. Makes the car feel that little bit more refined, almost to DC2R standards.
Basically is doesn't feel like your fillings are going to rattle out.
Add to that, bumps are more controlled. You don't spear or dart off, the car moves in one motion. Such an old car can feel disjointed at times when driving over bad surface or chassis flex under load.

[Alvis]

Thanks for the feedback, always good to hear personal experiences.

1. Were they hard to install?
2. How long did it take?
3. Where/which website did you buy them from?

[nigs]

Found them on Yahoo Auctions JPN and got JDM Garage to import them. $201 + agent fees and shipping.

If you have stock engine mounts it should be a lot easier. I've got HASPORT mounts in mine so the subframe didn't drop as low as you'd like it, to slip the collars in. So a crowbar was used to lever it open.
The instructions are in jap...lol but we worked it out in the end. The photos are good! Just had to suss out exactly which bolts they are pointing out then place the collars in the CORRECT way. We worked out the collars should be inserted they way they are drawn in the instructions, so which ever way it faced up is how it goes in. I'm still unsure on how Collar 5 is meant to go in....I assume it's on the bottom of the subframe, not in it like the other 4. Plus it's way too big to go else where....*shrug*

Took about 30-40mins on a hoist.

If you could be bothered to spend the money and effort to install, it's worth it! Our cars are just so old, nice refresh.
I want to add, it's not like bracing up the car and making it more stiff/noisey. It instead makes the chassis more refined, much like a new gen car. i.e DC5/MK5 GTi. I know those cars are out of our league but as I have and do drive those cars extensively, it's the best I can describe it.
It feels "nicer". Haha such a bad explanation.

[dc292177917]

did u buy it brand new? or 2nd hand from jp auction? thz

[VicTiR]

ohh really... how does that work with the more noise? Personal experience?

I installed subframe locks on my s15 and there was little movement except when the LSD locked in and out. A bit harsher but quite noticeable

[VicTiR]

Found them on Yahoo Auctions JPN and got JDM Garage to import them. $201 + agent fees and shipping.

If you have stock engine mounts it should be a lot easier. I've got HASPORT mounts in mine so the subframe didn't drop as low as you'd like it, to slip the collars in. So a crowbar was used to lever it open.
The instructions are in jap...lol but we worked it out in the end. The photos are good! Just had to suss out exactly which bolts they are pointing out then place the collars in the CORRECT way. We worked out the collars should be inserted they way they are drawn in the instructions, so which ever way it faced up is how it goes in. I'm still unsure on how Collar 5 is meant to go in....I assume it's on the bottom of the subframe, not in it like the other 4. Plus it's way too big to go else where....*shrug*

Took about 30-40mins on a hoist.

If you could be bothered to spend the money and effort to install, it's worth it! Our cars are just so old, nice refresh.
I want to add, it's not like bracing up the car and making it more stiff/noisey. It instead makes the chassis more refined, much like a new gen car. i.e DC5/MK5 GTi. I know those cars are out of our league but as I have and do drive those cars extensively, it's the best I can describe it.
It feels "nicer". Haha such a bad explanation.

Nice work on putting up the cash and effort for the install... now if we can get you to tell us what 'nicer' means we'll be set! :)

[nigs]

It doesn't drive like a piece of poo. Clicky klacky.

[Glocker]

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011/06/29/car-life-gt-gt-fitting-rigid-collars-to-the-gt-r.aspx

Dino's article showed it had collars for the rear subframe as well, Nig did you get those collars too?

[zco]

i met dino in person, and he said they were the best 200 he's ever spent.

i bought them, installed them. the worst 200 ive ever spent. lol unless my subframe was perfectly aligned before ?

[nigs]

...and found the steering needed to be re-centered now that the subframe was aligned properly with the chassis. Even driving the car around you can instantly feel an improvement in the car's dynamics. The first manhole cover I went over I instantly noticed the suspension felt far more compliant when dealing with bumps and steering feel definitely improved off center, where it had always felt a little vague. On the limit is where the changes can really be felt, with the alignment now perfectly squared up, the car feels far more precise and planted through corners while direction changes are more progressive when tire grip eventually begins to let go.

Exactly what he said...

I do however wish I found that article before installing mine.....didn't know you had to use copper grease! >_<!

The Civic kit doesn't come with rear ones....doubt you need them.

[zco]

subframe doesnt move on rear lol

the cooper grease is the grease that comes with it. it should have been browny/orangey colour. comes in a tube, but you only need about 2/3rds of the tube.

[nigs]

THERE WAS NO TUBE OMG.

Ripped off.

[nigs]

If my car explodes, I will now know why.

Fkn Spoon.

[Glocker]

THERE WAS NO TUBE OMG.

Ripped off.

No wonder u only paid $200 for it. Ha!

[Winter]

bump for an interesting thread

[VT3C]

Please refer to our website for more information - these are very popular with all of our customers !

http://www.rigidcollar.com.au/RIGID-COLLAR_What-Is.html

PM me or email (rigidcollar@gaijin-garage.com) if you have any questions or would like to order a set rigidcollar@gaijin-garage.com :)

[Fredoops]

I have that on my Accord euro.

.. Well not the spoon version. But close enough and a lot less money

It does change the handling and steering response. Car feels much tighter at turns

Also alignment becomes more dead on. So get a good alignment afterwards.