Accord Euro 2006 - Need assistance with potential issues

[darknoodles]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first time posting in this forum, so I apologise first if I do make a mistake.

Around 3 weeks ago, I acquired a second hand Accord Euro 2006 (auto) from another private seller. Standard model, no modifications at all, no accidents since new (so the seller claims and RTA record shows) and has done 80,000km mileage.

I have been driving the car very regularly for the last 3 weeks, and while it gets me from A to B, I can’t help but feel that there is something not quite right. Below is a list of strange “sensations” / “symptoms” which I’ve felt very consistently, and I’ve given my best to describe them.

I do realise they can sound very vague to the audience, but I hope you can throw me some recommendations as to what I can raise with my potential mechanic. Apologies as I’m just the average Joe and not fluent with car terminology. Please provide your 2c, and provide as much detail as you can. Even if you think they are “normal” for the Euro, I’d still like to know. The issues are not necessarily related (but they could be, I simply don’t know enough)



While traveling on low speed (e.g. below 40kmph), followed by letting the accelerator go (but without stepping on break) such that I start to “coast”, the RPM arrow would suddenly drop sharply below 1000rpm and then suddenly bounce back to above 1000rpm to maintain “coast”. In all other cars I’ve driven (including a Honda CRV), letting go of the accelerator to “coast” normally means RPM will simply drop to above 1000rpm and stay there to “coast”, but never doing a sharp bounce below 1000 and then suddenly go back above 1000rpm. This car does this “rpm bounce” when I let go of the accelerator to “coast” very very often.


Under normal circumstances the car is quiet and noise feels smooth. However there are often times, usually after letting go of the accelerator, that I can clearly and distinctly hear and feel mini vibrations from the front. It hears like a small drum is being played from within the engine, and the car also physically shakes a little (enough shaking that I can tell this apart from normal driving).


When going downhills, very often the 2nd / 3rd gear gets “stuck”, in the sense that the car will continue REVing up up and up without shifting to the next gear. As it is doing this, the car feels more shaky, and the steering wheel feels a lot harder / tougher to turn. At the same time, the drumming noise mentioned in 2) is very audible. When the downhill road finally becomes normal, the rpm (which is probably about 3000rpm because it never shifted to next gear while going downhills) will suddenly drop back to just below 2000rpm, and then everything is normal from then on.


When coming to a stop (either by breaking or coasting), there is often a single forward jerk. Just before this jerk, the car feels like it has a lot of forward thrust and the steering wheel is also hard to turn. The “RPM bounce” mentioned in 1) is sometimes noted as this happens. Then this one off forward jerk occurs, and car is normal afterwards (i.e. feels lighter and steering wheel no longer hard to turn).


Minor issue. Steering wheel – turning right is a lot heavier than turning left


Not an issue, but maybe helpful to know ? – I’ve just done the Honda Power Steering Hose recall at the dealer, about 2.5 weeks. When I got the car 3 weeks ago, the Power Steering Fluid was leaking. I’ve checked that the PSF no longer leaks.



Sorry if I have provided a bunch of useless descriptions, but I hope there can be some helpful responses to some of these symptoms. You may ask “why don’t you just go to your mechanic in the first place”, but I realise that it is very hard to explain these symptoms to them. I’m relying on the experience of this forum on the Euro to see if anyone knows about any of the above issues, and hopefully can provide me with more specific advice. At which point, a mechanic will atleast have some directions to go by as opposed to listening to me rambling on about the symptoms.

Hope to hear some tips.


Thanks in advance,
David

[Fredoops]

There's no way for you to know if car had been in accident or not from RTA records, write-off you can see on RTA records, accidents you can't.

Point 1: rpm drop/hike on cruise is normal If you let off gas ten press cruise, I think the manual says you set cruise THEN foot off pedal. Ps: iirc the cruise don't work below 60kph on the euro.

Point 2: about the shake from letting go of the gas pedal, first check the pulleys and belt, then check airbox/filter, but it might also be from valves.... Do your car sound like diesel some times? If so get valve clearance checked/adjusted. Might also come down to dirty Engine/injectors/throttle body... Run BP ultimate for a while and see if that go away... Or have FI system completely cleaned.

Point 3: It's engine braking, normal

Point 4: see point 2 check the pulley/belt that drives the ps pump etc. I've got same issue, it probably the pulley belt etc on it's way out

Point 5: check tyre pressure/wear. Then probably a wheel alignment.

Point 6: yeah there was a recall.

[Lazarus]

With number 3
Is it usually after you hit 60km and let go of the accel that it starts to feel...like something is pulling your car back?

[Fredoops]

Read point 3 again... It's defintely normal, it that "GradeLogic" crap at play, it senses the incline/decline and adjust engine accordingly... Aka: the recent advertisements you see on TV for the Civic Si

[darknoodles]

Thanks very much Fredoops, i will try to reply on each point...



Point 1: rpm drop/hike on cruise is normal If you let off gas ten press cruise, I think the manual says you set cruise THEN foot off pedal. Ps: iirc the cruise don't work below 60kph on the euro.

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by "set cruise". Can you please clarify ? If you mean cruise control, then that's definitely not the case. So to give a simple example: from stationary, i hit the gas uniformly untill car is say mid gear 2 (say 30kmph), and then i just lift my foot off the gas (but not putting it on break). As soon as my foot leaves the gas, the rpm arrow drops below 1000rpm, and immediately bounces back to above 1000rpm (and then stays there).

When you do this on most cars, doesn't the rpm just fall to above 1000rpm and stay there ? i.e. there is never that dramatic bounce below 1000 and then back up.

Never happens on higher speed / gears, only on slow speed / low gears.


Point 2: about the shake from letting go of the gas pedal, first check the pulleys and belt, then check airbox/filter, but it might also be from valves.... Do your car sound like diesel some times? If so get valve clearance checked/adjusted. Might also come down to dirty Engine/injectors/throttle body... Run BP ultimate for a while and see if that go away... Or have FI system completely cleaned.

Thanks those are useful starters. Yes, i would say the "drumming noise" is somewhat diesel-sounding (although not as loud, but clearly distinguishable from normal). That's alot of suggestions though, can you list them in descending order of likelihood (i.e. first one being the most likely and last one being least probable) ? What will a mechanic charge for them ? Sorry i'm very new to all this.

I've fueled up with 98 Octane twice during the 3 weeks i've owned the car. Although i suspect the previous owner may have used E10. Does prolonged use of E10 harm the Euro ? And if so is it reversible ? Would it help explain any of the symptoms i'm experiencing ?


Point 3: It's engine braking, normal

Really ? So there is no ways to ease that sensation ? I live in neighborhood with lots of hills and this is very annoying. Never happens in previous cars i've driven (incluidng a Honda CRV)

So to give a simple example again. Road is normal (flat), everything is normal. Then road goes downhill, and the REV arrow slowly goes up up and up, all this time the engine feels like its stalling, steering wheel is very hard to turn, and the car just feels "heavier" (not sure how else to word it). REV just climbs higher and higher but never shifts into next gear. Its like the car is really struggling or stuck on something, hence i used the term "stuck" on a gear. Vibration and shakes are felt.

For the same going downhill scenario, if i put the car in N, then everything is just fine as i go down the hill - no heavy sensations and no vibrations / shake.


Point 4: see point 2 check the pulley/belt that drives the ps pump etc. I've got same issue, it probably the pulley belt etc on it's way out

Is this a replaceable part and if so how much does it generally cost for a mechanic to replace it ?



Point 5: check tyre pressure/wear. Then probably a wheel alignment.

Okay thanks.

[dr1ft3r]

For point 1 & 2, I suspect the throttle body. Have it clean.

[dr1ft3r]

aaronng might have better answer than me........

[Fredoops]

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by "set cruise". Can you please clarify ? If you mean cruise control, then that's definitely not the case. So to give a simple example: from stationary, i hit the gas uniformly untill car is say mid gear 2 (say 30kmph), and then i just lift my foot off the gas (but not putting it on break). As soon as my foot leaves the gas, the rpm arrow drops below 1000rpm, and immediately bounces back to above 1000rpm (and then stays there).

When you do this on most cars, doesn't the rpm just fall to above 1000rpm and stay there ? i.e. there is never that dramatic bounce below 1000 and then back up.
Never happens on higher speed / gears, only on slow speed / low gears.

Reset the ECU maybe? Cause I think it's not really an issue.

Also try to stick the automatic box in "manual mode" stick in second or something, try the same method as above, and see if the same sensation occurs, if not, then it's the auto transmission being confused about what gear to put the car in.


Thanks those are useful starters. Yes, i would say the "drumming noise" is somewhat diesel-sounding (although not as loud, but clearly distinguishable from normal). That's alot of suggestions though, can you list them in descending order of likelihood (i.e. first one being the most likely and last one being least probable) ? What will a mechanic charge for them ? Sorry i'm very new to all this.

If it's not loud and is seprate from sound of the pistons (engine)... then it pretty much leave the pulley belt... dunno how much it is to replace tho.


I've fueled up with 98 Octane twice during the 3 weeks i've owned the car. Although i suspect the previous owner may have used E10. Does prolonged use of E10 harm the Euro ? And if so is it reversible ? Would it help explain any of the symptoms i'm experiencing
Most people on the forum say it's okay to use E10 (because the manufacturer says it's okay to use up to E10). But Im going to stick my head out and say otherwise, E10 contains water content, theres the equivlent of a whole glass of water in every full tank of E10 (approx 6% of the 10% Ethanol is water, approx 360mls in a 60 ltr tank)

Also, the petrol stations that sells 95 octane E10 are never the major retailers, and the quality of fuel are rather unstable.

So I stay away from E10 personally.

If car has been using E10 for a long time I suspect engine is be "dirtier" than usual.. Give it a good oil change (with decent thin-ish full syn oil... if there is any corrosive leaks from gaskets etc you'll know real quick), do a FI system clean (which also cleans throttle body iirc, you should see how much gunk was flushed out of my car when I did the FI system clean at 100,000k service and thenhow much dirty stuff was flushed out when I changed from crappy dino oil to full syn), and run 98 octane BO Ultimate or Caltex Vortex for a while and you should be okay.




Really ? So there is no ways to ease that sensation ? I live in neighborhood with lots of hills and this is very annoying. Never happens in previous cars i've driven (incluidng a Honda CRV)

So to give a simple example again. Road is normal (flat), everything is normal. Then road goes downhill, and the REV arrow slowly goes up up and up, all this time the engine feels like its stalling, steering wheel is very hard to turn, and the car just feels "heavier" (not sure how else to word it). REV just climbs higher and higher but never shifts into next gear. Its like the car is really struggling or stuck on something, hence i used the term "stuck" on a gear. Vibration and shakes are felt.
For the same going downhill scenario, if i put the car in N, then everything is just fine as i go down the hill - no heavy sensations and no vibrations / shake.
Yep, it's GradeLogic.

You can always manually shift the gear up.

[darknoodles]

Reset the ECU maybe? Cause I think it's not really an issue.

I know i may be pedantic....But seeing the RPM arrow bounce up and down wildly just isn't very comforting.

What is the ECU and how can it be reset (is it a mechanic job) ?


Also try to stick the automatic box in "manual mode" stick in second or something, try the same method as above, and see if the same sensation occurs, if not, then it's the auto transmission being confused about what gear to put the car in.

Good idea i will give the manual mode a try. But if the transmission is being "confused" as you say, is there anything i (or a mechanic visit) can do to improve it ?



If it's not loud and is seprate from sound of the pistons (engine)... then it pretty much leave the pulley belt... dunno how much it is to replace tho.

It is not deafening loud...but clearly audiable when it does occur. Can't tell if it is the sound of pistons. I'll definitely keep the pulley belt in mind. Any other suggestions, considering the other things i've mentioned ?


Most people on the forum say it's okay to use E10 (because the manufacturer says it's okay to use up to E10). But Im going to stick my head out and say otherwise, E10 contains water content, theres the equivlent of a whole glass of water in every full tank of E10 (approx 6% of the 10% Ethanol is water, approx 360mls in a 60 ltr tank)

Also, the petrol stations that sells 95 octane E10 are never the major retailers, and the quality of fuel are rather unstable.

So I stay away from E10 personally.

If car has been using E10 for a long time I suspect engine is be "dirtier" than usual.. Give it a good oil change (with decent thin-ish full syn oil... if there is any corrosive leaks from gaskets etc you'll know real quick), do a FI system clean (which also cleans throttle body iirc, you should see how much gunk was flushed out of my car when I did the FI system clean at 100,000k service and thenhow much dirty stuff was flushed out when I changed from crappy dino oil to full syn), and run 98 octane BO Ultimate or Caltex Vortex for a while and you should be okay.

Yes i will continue to run atleast 95 Octane in the future. The only reason i used 98 Octane in the last 3 weeks was to see if the above symptoms would disappear, which none of them did...



Yep, it's GradeLogic.

You can always manually shift the gear up.

Okay thanks....i'll just to learn to live with it.

[Fredoops]

I know i may be pedantic....But seeing the RPM arrow bounce up and down wildly just isn't very comforting.

What is the ECU and how can it be reset (is it a mechanic job) ?
ECU, the computer that controls all the engine stuff. Reset by disconnecting battery terminal, wait 10 min, reconnect battery terminal. google on how to do it, theres plenty of info around.


Good idea i will give the manual mode a try. But if the transmission is being "confused" as you say, is there anything i (or a mechanic visit) can do to improve it ?
Nope, reset ECU as per above, then it might reset the drive by wire memery from the previous owner. The Euro's got electronic throttle (aka: theres a lag), so you'd probably better off beng more "sure footed" when it comes to acclerating.


It is not deafening loud...but clearly audiable when it does occur. Can't tell if it is the sound of pistons. I'll definitely keep the pulley belt in mind. Any other suggestions, considering the other things i've mentioned ?
nope, i'm putting the money on the pulley belt.


Yes i will continue to run atleast 95 Octane in the future. The only reason i used 98 Octane in the last 3 weeks was to see if the above symptoms would disappear, which none of them did...
Give the car an oil change.

Always give allowance for major service (or at least an oil change) when buying a second hand vehicle.

[darknoodles]

For point 1 & 2, I suspect the throttle body. Have it clean.

Thank you. Both of you have suggested this and so i'll keep that in mind too. I'll wait to see if there are more responses.

[darknoodles]

Thanks very much Fredoops.

Hope to see more opinions like yours.

[aaronng]

Sorry I'm not sure what you mean by "set cruise". Can you please clarify ? If you mean cruise control, then that's definitely not the case. So to give a simple example: from stationary, i hit the gas uniformly untill car is say mid gear 2 (say 30kmph), and then i just lift my foot off the gas (but not putting it on break). As soon as my foot leaves the gas, the rpm arrow drops below 1000rpm, and immediately bounces back to above 1000rpm (and then stays there).

When you do this on most cars, doesn't the rpm just fall to above 1000rpm and stay there ? i.e. there is never that dramatic bounce below 1000 and then back up.

Never happens on higher speed / gears, only on slow speed / low gears.
Every car has a flywheel, even an auto transmission one, and when you release your foot off the gas, the flywheel will start to slow down. It will slow down quickly until under 1000rpm when the ECU finally decides it is too low and tells the electronic throttle to give it a bit more gas to keep the RPM up. If you get someone to observe the RPM dropping, it should dip below 1000rpm but still stay above 700rpm or so. Old auto transmission fluid can also contribute to this. Because of the way the torque converter works by using the transmission fluid to create friction in the torque convertor as the RPM increases, old fluid can have more slip which contributes to it.

If the transmission fluid has not been replaced in the past 2 years or you have no records of it being done, I recommend that you do it. Use only Honda auto transmission fluid (ATF).




Thanks those are useful starters. Yes, i would say the "drumming noise" is somewhat diesel-sounding (although not as loud, but clearly distinguishable from normal). That's alot of suggestions though, can you list them in descending order of likelihood (i.e. first one being the most likely and last one being least probable) ? What will a mechanic charge for them ? Sorry i'm very new to all this.
If it sounds like a diesel, and it is worse when it is cold, then you need to get the valve clearance of the engine checked and adjusted if required. This is part of the service schedule and should be carried out every 2 years or 40,000km.



I've fueled up with 98 Octane twice during the 3 weeks i've owned the car. Although i suspect the previous owner may have used E10. Does prolonged use of E10 harm the Euro ? And if so is it reversible ? Would it help explain any of the symptoms i'm experiencing ?
E10 itself is ok, but the majority of E10 out there is 91 octane, which is way below the minimum requirement of 95 octane. As long as the previous owner did not thrash the car on 91 octane, the engine will be fine. The ECU listens for knock from using too low an octane and adjusts the air/fuel mixture accordingly to protect the engine.



Really ? So there is no ways to ease that sensation ? I live in neighborhood with lots of hills and this is very annoying. Never happens in previous cars i've driven (incluidng a Honda CRV)
It is actually a feature so that the car slows down using engine braking when you are going downhill and you will end up using less of your brakes (and making it last longer). The ECU learns your driving style and changes to suit, so if you find it annoying, just use your brakes more when you are going downhill and after a while it should remember that and use less engine braking.



So to give a simple example again. Road is normal (flat), everything is normal. Then road goes downhill, and the REV arrow slowly goes up up and up, all this time the engine feels like its stalling, steering wheel is very hard to turn, and the car just feels "heavier" (not sure how else to word it). REV just climbs higher and higher but never shifts into next gear. Its like the car is really struggling or stuck on something, hence i used the term "stuck" on a gear. Vibration and shakes are felt.
When this happens again, stick it into semi-auto mode and shift it into the next gear. Do this for a few days and see how it goes. Also, it shouldn't vibrate that badly. Change the auto transmission fluid and see how it goes.



For the same going downhill scenario, if i put the car in N, then everything is just fine as i go down the hill - no heavy sensations and no vibrations / shake.
It's because you don't have a revving engine and a revving gearbox. So at least you know where the issue is coming from. In addition, check the accessory belt. There is an auto tensioner for the belt behind the power steering pump and it has a triangle which points at a large rectangle and a smaller square on it. The triangle should point at the large rectangle or be in between the rectangle and the square. If it is pointing at the small square or even beyond that, then the belt needs to be replaced.



Is this a replaceable part and if so how much does it generally cost for a mechanic to replace it ?

Yes, it is replaceable and is actually a wear and tear item that should be replaced after a few years. I buy mine from the parts shop for about $60 and replace it myself. The belt width and length is 7PK1760 (7 ribs, 1760mm circumference). If you can't find this one, then 7PK1750 is fine as well.

[darknoodles]

If the transmission fluid has not been replaced in the past 2 years or you have no records of it being done, I recommend that you do it. Use only Honda auto transmission fluid (ATF).

Do i need to empty the current existing ATF a few times (think i read this somewhere), or just empty once and fill up with Honda ATF ?



If it sounds like a diesel, and it is worse when it is cold, then you need to get the valve clearance of the engine checked and adjusted if required. This is part of the service schedule and should be carried out every 2 years or 40,000km.

It is actually not too bad on cold, worse when warm.


It is actually a feature so that the car slows down using engine braking when you are going downhill and you will end up using less of your brakes (and making it last longer). The ECU learns your driving style and changes to suit, so if you find it annoying, just use your brakes more when you are going downhill and after a while it should remember that and use less engine braking.

I had no idea the ECU actually learns the driver's habits overtime. If so i'd like to reset it as recommended - it makes sense because driver has changed. Would resetting the ECU bring any unwanted results ?



Yes, it is replaceable and is actually a wear and tear item that should be replaced after a few years. I buy mine from the parts shop for about $60 and replace it myself. The belt width and length is 7PK1760 (7 ribs, 1760mm circumference). If you can't find this one, then 7PK1750 is fine as well.

Thanks.


I have been to Hanny's @ Smithfield about 2 weeks ago (recommended by a friend), but Robert took it for a drive and said no major issues found, and sent me off without any servicing. Basically he stepped on the gas alot and so didn't really get to feel much of the issues. If i do return there, what should i say and request for ? I don't want to be explaining the whole story of what im feeling here and there, because they are just going to brush it off as a non-issue again.

[aaronng]

Do i need to empty the current existing ATF a few times (think i read this somewhere), or just empty once and fill up with Honda ATF ?
Doing that would be very expensive for you. I'd just empty once and refill. Then do it again in 1 year's time.



It is actually not too bad on cold, worse when warm.
The only things worse when warm would be carbon deposit buildup in the combustion chamber (you can use Wurth's upper cylinder head cleaner), possible if the previous owner was running on 91 octane and the engine was running rich to prevent knocking and thus putting a layer of carbon deposits in the combustion chamber.



I had no idea the ECU actually learns the driver's habits overtime. If so i'd like to reset it as recommended - it makes sense because driver has changed. Would resetting the ECU bring any unwanted results ?
Resetting the ECU should reset the short and long term fuel maps. I'm not sure about the gearbox driving history, but worth giving a try anyway. You just get the engine running slightly rich for an hour or two.



I have been to Hanny's @ Smithfield about 2 weeks ago (recommended by a friend), but Robert took it for a drive and said no major issues found, and sent me off without any servicing. Basically he stepped on the gas alot and so didn't really get to feel much of the issues. If i do return there, what should i say and request for ? I don't want to be explaining the whole story of what im feeling here and there, because they are just going to brush it off as a non-issue again.
Just ask him to do a change of the auto transmission fluid. It might cost you over $100 though, but it is one of the fluids that should be changed after buying a car that is pre-owned with reasonable kms on the clock.

[darknoodles]

Okay thanks aaronng, i'll get a service done in the very near future and report back.

In the meantime any other suggestions are most welcome.

[darknoodles]

Hi all,

Car was serviced by a mechanic a few days ago. Specificaly the following was done.

Changed engine oil
Change Auto Trans Fluid
Changed Air filter
Clean throttle body
Other things that would fall under "general service"
ECU reset

Total cost of $120 (parts) + $250 (labor) = $370

The pulley belt was not changed, because the mechanic deemed it "OK" and didn't see the point of changing it, and so i didn't pursue any further. Should i have ?

Overall there seems to be a slight improvement, but the fundamental issues are still there :(

The biggest improvement has been the downhills "stuck gear" sensation. I can now clearly feel the difference (the so called engine brake) compared to before - which was really jerky and ...well weird. So its good on that front.

It still very much concerns me that nothing much has changed otherwise. The biggest concern has always been the drumming noise (point 2 on front page)....Without sounding repetitive, basically this issue typically occurs when,

-> i am travelling on 2/3/4th gear
-> then i just let go of the gas and don't touch the brakes (e.g. coasting towards a far red light)
-> as soon as i let go of the gas, the drumming noise starts -> all this time while i am coasting (no gas, no brake) the drumming noise continues, untill eventually when i step on some brake
-> the drumming noise slowly phases away, but just before the noise completely disappears, the car feels very heavy like it has alot of forward thrust, and the sterring wheel is hard to turn (feels heavy)
-> then there is a definitely mini forward jerk, and then the durmming noise completely goes
-> car brakes back to normal.

The above occurs far more often when the car is warm. Almost never happens on say the first 3 mins when cold started.


I would really appreciate any input anyone might have on this annoying problem. aaronng did suggest cleaning possible carbon deposit buildup in the combustion chamber...i do not know if that was performed by the mechanic. Can i please get some further insights to this problem ?


Thanks.

[aaronng]

Hi all,

Car was serviced by a mechanic a few days ago. Specificaly the following was done.

Changed engine oil
Change Auto Trans Fluid
Changed Air filter
Clean throttle body
Other things that would fall under "general service"
ECU reset

Total cost of $120 (parts) + $250 (labor) = $370
The parts cost is too cheap. What air filter and fluids did the mechanic use? Doesn't sound like the it was an original air filter or Honda ATF.



The pulley belt was not changed, because the mechanic deemed it "OK" and didn't see the point of changing it, and so i didn't pursue any further. Should i have ?
Check it yourself by looking at the belt tensioner with a flashlight.



-> i am travelling on 2/3/4th gear
-> then i just let go of the gas and don't touch the brakes (e.g. coasting towards a far red light)
-> as soon as i let go of the gas, the drumming noise starts -> all this time while i am coasting (no gas, no brake) the drumming noise continues, untill eventually when i step on some brake
-> the drumming noise slowly phases away, but just before the noise completely disappears, the car feels very heavy like it has alot of forward thrust, and the sterring wheel is hard to turn (feels heavy)
-> then there is a definitely mini forward jerk, and then the durmming noise completely goes
-> car brakes back to normal.

The above occurs far more often when the car is warm. Almost never happens on say the first 3 mins when cold started.

If it was a transmission problem, then the steering wheel shouldn't become heavy. If the steering wheel becomes heavy, it could be an issue caused by either the power steering pump or a slipping pulley belt. Check the pulley belt tensioner position first. Does the triangle point to the small square or the larger rectangle?

[darknoodles]

If it was a transmission problem, then the steering wheel shouldn't become heavy. If the steering wheel becomes heavy, it could be an issue caused by either the power steering pump or a slipping pulley belt. Check the pulley belt tensioner position first. Does the triangle point to the small square or the larger rectangle?

i took a 10 min look around the pulley but couldn't locate the triangle (or square or rectangle) you mentioned. Apologies im not much of a DIY person when it comes to cars.

below are 2 photos, can you possibly indicate where these are (maybe just draw an arrow or something) ? Or do i need to remove something first ?

if i didn't even get close, would there be any photos on the net showing how i could locate it ?

Thanks.

http://i51.tinypic.com/s0z97d.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/1174lc4.jpg

[jono_l]

The auto-tensioner pulley is the small black pulley (smallest ones in the picture). The square/rectangle sits directly next to where "PNA" is stamped on the auto-tensioner unit, and the little triangle is right next to that. Good luck with it mate!

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9138/1174lc4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/715/1174lc4.jpg/)

[aaronng]

^^ what jono_l said.

Have a look at the marks when the engine is off and when the engine is at idle. Also, check if the arrow is moving wildly around when at idle.

If the mark is pointing to the small square when off - Belt is worn
If the mark is pointing to the middle when off but to the small square when engine is idling - Belt is worn
If the mark is moving around and doesn't stay at one spot when idling - auto tensioner is worn
If you hear a crunchy sound from the small black pulley on the auto tensioner - bearing in tensioner pulley is worn

Here is another picture which clearly shows the small square and large rectangle. Note the triangle is pointing way beyond the small square in this photo, showing the belt is either extremely stretched or is of the wrong length.
http://i35.tinypic.com/r1c1w1.jpg

[darknoodles]

Thanks both. This is the position of my triangle.

It points to this position when off and also when engine is idle (i.e. idle or off doesn't seem to make a difference, and i kept it on idle for around 5mins). When idle the triangle doesn't move around - its fairly steady.

Whare are next steps ?

http://i52.tinypic.com/2i6melx.jpg

[aaronng]

Thanks both. This is the position of my triangle.

It points to this position when off and also when engine is idle (i.e. idle or off doesn't seem to make a difference, and i kept it on idle for around 5mins). When idle the triangle doesn't move around - its fairly steady.

Whare are next steps ?

[IMG]http://i52.tinypic.com/2i6melx.jpg[IMG]

So you've ruled out the accessory belt and the tensioner. If the steering gets heavy under deceleration, what RPM does that happen? What RPM is the engine at when the vibrations start to occur? Does it also happen when you are accelerating at that same RPM point?

[darknoodles]

So you've ruled out the accessory belt and the tensioner. If the steering gets heavy under deceleration, what RPM does that happen? What RPM is the engine at when the vibrations start to occur? Does it also happen when you are accelerating at that same RPM point?

Yep sure. The vibration / drumming noise occur around the 1200-1300 RPM. Here's a typical sequence,


-> from stationary, step on gas uniformly and reach say 3rd or 4th gear
-> take feet off gas and just coast forward (i.e. no gas, no brake either)
-> after feet off gas, rpm drops quickly to around 1200-1300rpm, and drumming noise occurs. Car feels like it has some forward thrust and a little shaky.
-> while drumming noise is still there and needle still around 1200-1300rpm, I step on gas again. Drumming noise disaapears and RPM goes up uniformly as normal, and car is not shaky.
-> take feet off gas again and just coast forward (i.e. again no brake)
-> RPM drop to 1200-1300rpm, drumming noise returns (sometimes even louder than before) and pretty much same symptoms

brake is never used in the above scenario

Of course as with most problems, it does not always occur 100% of the time. As i mentioned it usually is ok when car is cold, and occurs often when warm. Drumming noise is more pronounced when the car has been driving around for long time.

[ not sure if this will help ] .. I should also add that, if i take my feet off the gas just before going into the next gear, the noise is more pronounced, i.e....

-> step on gas uniformly and reach say 3rd gear. While on 3rd gear, still apply gas as normal, but as it is about to shift to 4th gear, take feet off gas and just coast (no brakes)
-> drumming noise occurs like mentioned above. Done this way, the noise is sometimes louder, and overall the noise just appears more often. RPM is still around 1200-1300 when noise occurs.

[aaronng]

[ not sure if this will help ] .. I should also add that, if i take my feet off the gas just before going into the next gear, the noise is more pronounced, i.e....

-> step on gas uniformly and reach say 3rd gear. While on 3rd gear, still apply gas as normal, but as it is about to shift to 4th gear, take feet off gas and just coast (no brakes)
-> drumming noise occurs like mentioned above. Done this way, the noise is sometimes louder, and overall the noise just appears more often. RPM is still around 1200-1300 when noise occurs.
That makes me wonder if it is a worn transmission issue or a worn engine mount. Have you been able to find out from the mechanic that did the auto transmission fluid change what fluid he used?

[darknoodles]

That makes me wonder if it is a worn transmission issue or a worn engine mount. Have you been able to find out from the mechanic that did the auto transmission fluid change what fluid he used?

On the mechanic paperwork it just says "changed 3L of auto transmission fluid". When the car was taken to the mechanic in the morning it was said to him to make sure to use Honda ATF. The car was then collected in the afternoon. So I didn't actually physically "see" it being used, but I would assume he would be responsible.

Are there more tests we can do to isolate the problem ?

[darknoodles]

Here's some new info.

Basically when i'm driving normally, and then i just let go of the gas (brakes never applied), then after i let go of the gas 1 of these 2 things usually happen,

1) in the first case, the RPM falls (from whatever it was before) down to the 1200-1300rpm range and stays there like i mentioned before. The drumming noise occurs as described

2) quite often as well, when i let go of the gas, the RPM will drop sharply down to 700rpm, and suddenly bounce back (as opposed to just dropping and staying at 1200-1300rpm).
Here are 2 videos showing this happening. Note just how many times the car did this "bounce". I can pretty much consistently get it to do this RPM "bounce" everytime on 2nd and 3rd gears, by first applying gas to reach the gear and simply let go of the gas, and the RPM will bounce. And this "bounce" phenomenon occurs all the time, irrespective if car is cold or warm or every warm.


(RPM bounce when letting go of gas: using automatic)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AN1S4DAQvU
0 sec - car is off
7 sec - engine started
19 sec - driving starts

(RPM bounce when letting go of gas: using manual)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQWPLkDHcQ8
6 sec - driving starts


Breaks were never ever used.


I understand very clearly that I shouldn't be mixing these 2 issues (if they are indeed issues). I realise we need to focus on something first. But in saying that, I thought there could be a chance that issues might be correlated in some way and some common fault might help to explain both. Hence i'm providing videos for completeness.

I still feel the drumming / vibration noise is the number 1 nuisance to me. Something(s) just has to be wrong there.... As for the RPM bounce, well to be honest it does it so often enough that it does bother me - but hey its just bouncing up and down and doesn't make any other noise or cause the car to shake, so i can live with it bouncing all it wants (of course if it is an issue, then it needs to be looked at too).

Any thoughts ?...:(

[tony1234]

I reckon you need to go to a specialist auto transmission workshop.Preferably Honda.

[darknoodles]

I reckon you need to go to a specialist auto transmission workshop.Preferably Honda.

is there a recommended one that comes to mind in Sydney ? And how much would i be looking at to have them diagnosed the issue, with a possible fix ?

[aaronng]

For the RPM bounce issue, it is normal if it is in N or P. But since you are driving in gear when it occurs, I wonder if the torque convertor is slipping too much. Again, I'd ask what auto transmission fluid was used. I can't imagine the mechanic using Honda fluid give the low price that he charged for the supplies.

[darknoodles]

For the RPM bounce issue, it is normal if it is in N or P. But since you are driving in gear when it occurs, I wonder if the torque convertor is slipping too much. Again, I'd ask what auto transmission fluid was used. I can't imagine the mechanic using Honda fluid give the low price that he charged for the supplies.

Yes I've checked today with the mechanic that honda ATF was used.

How can i know if the torque converter is slipping

[aaronng]

Yes I've checked today with the mechanic that honda ATF was used.

How can i know if the torque converter is slipping

It doesn't lock at high RPM. Can't really tell unless it is on a dyno. Also it could be a worn clutch pack but that is difficult to diagnose without pulling the gearbox apart or if your gearbox actually starts skipping gears (my old 1994 accord started losing 2nd gear when it was about 8 years old).

[darknoodles]

It doesn't lock at high RPM. Can't really tell unless it is on a dyno. Also it could be a worn clutch pack but that is difficult to diagnose without pulling the gearbox apart or if your gearbox actually starts skipping gears (my old 1994 accord started losing 2nd gear when it was about 8 years old).

At this point, do you think I should just let go of the problems and drive on ?

I do not see myself pursuing specialists and spending thousands of dollars on the matter :(

[Fredoops]

At this point, do you think I should just let go of the problems and drive on ?

I do not see myself pursuing specialists and spending thousands of dollars on the matter :(

read this and see if it applies to you
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/transmission-slipping-symptoms.html
and then give this a read:
http://tl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=776213

if not, buy yourself some new Honda ATF (the Synthetic one, DW1 I think) or Redline ATF (from what I heard that might help , change the fluid again, and then just let go of the problem and move on.

[jono_l]

At this point, do you think I should just let go of the problems and drive on ?

I do not see myself pursuing specialists and spending thousands of dollars on the matter :(

I have a 07 auto with a mileage not too dissimilar from yours (75k on mine). I was able to replicate your RPM bounce problem in full-automatic mode on my car using very little throttle and immediately lifting off throttle after the upshift (as you stated).

Whilst I could be completely wrong (and please correct me if I am!), this suggests that the torque converter isn't locking up immediately after the upshift and the throttle is lifted. To me, this seems fairly normal, as the engine speed is low (below the stall speed of the torque converter in this case) thus allowing the torque converter to slip and allowing the engine to drop back to idle at approx 700rpm. Why the bounce-back from 700rpm to 13-1400rpm happens is beyond me though - it could be caused by the torque converter itself starting to lock up due to too great of a difference between engine speed and input shaft speed, or it might even be initiated by the ECU applying a little throttle to prevent the engine from stalling as is the case with the drive-by-wire system? As we do not run an idle control valve on these cars (I think?!), the ECU opens the throttle plate a little during idle to prevent the engine from stalling even if our foot is off the accelerator.

What I might do in a few days (dependant on free time!) is to do a bit of testing using an OBD2 scanner, noting any differences in the actual throttle position when the accelerator pedal is lifted at high rpm's, near idle, and also once it's "bounced back" if you like. This might help in pinpointing the exact cause of the symptoms.

For me, I've never actually noticed the RPM bounce until specifically trying to replicate it, as I generally apply enough (i.e. more!) throttle to minimise the amount of torque converter slip. After all, any time the torque converter is slipping is just essentially wasted energy right?!

If anything, Honda's service manual states that the stall speed should remain between 1850 and 2150rpm - this is tested with both brake and accelerator pedal to the floor in drive or reverse, handbrake applied, all wheels chocked. (They also suggest that you do not perform this test for more than 6-8 seconds, and that you allow for 2 minutes in between tests for cool down). If your stall speed is significantly higher than 2150rpm then you may have a problem with the transmission slipping.

For me, all these symptoms (asides from the drumming noise) seem fairly typical of an automatic vehicle to me. I'd personally just leave it be - though I'm not one to judge as I've only had around 8 months and 13000 km's behind the wheel of an auto and don't really know what normal is! Oh how I miss my old manual!

[lovenoodles]

if not, buy yourself some new Honda ATF (the Synthetic one, DW1 I think) or Redline ATF (from what I heard that might help , change the fluid again, and then just let go of the problem and move on.

Do i need to see a Honda dealer to purchase the DW1 Honda ATF ? if not where else is cheaper ? (in Sydney)

And is changing the ATF possible to DIY ? can you briefly describe the steps.

Yes i've made up my mind to not think about the issue and just get over it.

[Banana_hammock]

Changing the ATF is basically just as easy as changing engine oil. Drain from the bottom, do bolt up, open the filler bolt, pour in new mix. Seal bolt, switch car on, move through from park to reverse to drive all the way to your lowest gear then back the way it came.

[jono_l]

Do i need to see a Honda dealer to purchase the DW1 Honda ATF ? if not where else is cheaper ? (in Sydney)

And is changing the ATF possible to DIY ? can you briefly describe the steps.

Yes i've made up my mind to not think about the issue and just get over it.

I believe you need to undo the engine undertray (various clips and bolts I think?) to get to the auto trans drain bolt too. Drain bolt takes a 3/8" square drive wrench/ratchet/breaker bar directly.

I was quoted $67.75 for 4 litres of Honda ATF from Scott's Honda, but not sure if this is DW1 or Z1. I'm personally going to try the Redline D4 ATF - there's a fella up in Eastwood who sells it for $85/gallon or $23/quart. Refill capacity on our cars is 3 quarts (2.7L). I've never done the ATF fluid change before myself but seems easy enough - I'll try snap a few pictures for you when I get around to it if things don't get too messy!

[marquee]

aaron you get rep i dont care what anyone says

[darknoodles]

Thanks everyone I'll get some ATF and drain/refill.

I've got more info. The drumming / vibration noise only ever appears when I'm on 4th gear. I.e. Only when I'm on 4th gear and I let go of gas, then rpm drops to around 1300rpm and noise occurs. 1st 2nd 3rd and 5th gears never makes this noise.

Does this info help anyone ? I discovered this when everytime I noticed the drumming noise, I switched to manual and it is always on 4th gear and around 1300rpm. After a while it drops to 3rd gear and that's when a mini forward jerk occurs and thats when the drumming noise then goes away. Then it just drops to 1st gear when car is almost stationary.

Anything...?

[jono_l]

Thanks everyone I'll get some ATF and drain/refill.

Whilst I haven't got a clue with your drumming/vibration issue, I just did an ATF drain/fill on my own car using Redline D4. My old fluid was looking very used (not even close to the red that it is meant to be), so I may go ahead drain it twice more so that I get a good proportion of new fluid to old fluid.

Not sure of it's just a placebo effect, but the car seems to shift quicker with the new fluid (especially in manual mode) and is less jerky.

Cracking the drain bolt for the first time since it was installed at the Honda factory was a pain in the arse. Broke a cheap 3/8" ratchet. Using a hammer/mallet and an 18" breaker bar did nothing. Finally cracked the bolt open the bolt by using a floor jack to (slowly) raise the breaker bar handle.

I also snapped a few quick pictures so if you're interested I'll post em up. Not enough to do a proper DIY writeup at this stage (hoping to get more pictures the next time I drain/refill it) but may help you visualise where things are.

[aaronng]

Thanks everyone I'll get some ATF and drain/refill.

I've got more info. The drumming / vibration noise only ever appears when I'm on 4th gear. I.e. Only when I'm on 4th gear and I let go of gas, then rpm drops to around 1300rpm and noise occurs. 1st 2nd 3rd and 5th gears never makes this noise.

Does this info help anyone ? I discovered this when everytime I noticed the drumming noise, I switched to manual and it is always on 4th gear and around 1300rpm. After a while it drops to 3rd gear and that's when a mini forward jerk occurs and thats when the drumming noise then goes away. Then it just drops to 1st gear when car is almost stationary.

Anything...?
Does it also happen in 5th gear at almost freeway speeds?

[HondaMike]

Any resolution to this problem? I have a 2007 Euro that vibrates when coasting and decelerating similar to this.

[hogan]

change the atf fluid the juddering was a problem i had and went away after i did the swap. I used redline atf fluid got it from amazon usa. theres a few write ups to do the fluid swap its easier than an oil swap.

[vincentljb]

i've got a 2005 euro and had the same RPM bounce problem as u mentioned. i've been driving it for 10 months now, changed the transmission fluid twice with ATF-DW1 (quoted $80 something per 4L by my mechanic, he got it from trivett classic or something), the RPM bounce is still there but it doesn't really interfere with driving (at least I didn't physically feel the bounce) nor does it appear to have any negative effect on the engine or transmission or steering so i just let it go for all these time. btw flushing the transmission with ATF-DW1 does make a BIG difference in terms of gear feelings (the stickiness of 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear will fade away over time with the new fluid)

[HondaMike]

change the atf fluid the juddering was a problem i had and went away after i did the swap. I used redline atf fluid got it from amazon usa. theres a few write ups to do the fluid swap its easier than an oil swap.

I just bought my car at 85,000KM changed the inner CV joint on the drivers side which resolved shaking on acceleration, only to find it vibrates on deceleration just over 60kmh. I then flushed out 8 litres of DW-1 Honda ATF, power steering fluid, but I find now it still vibrates on deceleration. There is improvement in response downshifting and it shifts up more crisply as well.