PING D16Y1 with P29 pistons and std head gasket

[alessioo]

hey guys as some may already know ive built a all motor d16y1 and atm im still waiting for my s300 to come and in the mean time my motor is pinging BAD and even with octane booster in it and the timing pulled all the was back its bad but only pings at low rpm on load but not when full throttle. can this be just cause its starving of fuel???

[alessioo]

btw comp is 12:1

[alessioo]

when i put my crower stage 3 cam in it cleaned up all the ping and i actually added timing. runs great just waiting for a dyno tune atm

[GSi_PSi]

cool, what power would this make 80kwatw>?

[alessioo]

my motor is making 150kw at the motor 200 hp. prob 140 130 at the wheels

[TheSaint]

wish i could afford an S300 =/

im tossing up between saving for one or buying the gear to make my own ROM chips lol
at least i can do a variety of cars than not just one

[GSi_PSi]

140kw ??? you said all motor right>?. Is this just what you think it is ? or on a actual atw dyno.
D16y1 no way in the world make 150kw all motor on 12:1 comp and cams.

[alessioo]

save up for a s300 saint. i love mine and theres alot of people who can tune them

[alessioo]

hey gsi_psi its making that much atm. i dyno it when i didnt have my s300j and it made 137kw atw. now i got the s300j and im just waiting till a seal comes in as im rebuilding my gear box. then ill get it tuned and finally dyno results.

little about my motor.

D16Y1 all motor
p29 pistons.
standard rod shot peened. i think thats how u say it.
block guard.
over size bearings.
oil pump ported and 2 washers added to the spring for high oil pressure.
head was ported as much as it could go. intake ported were finished with a sand blast finish to make fuel and air mix better.
exhaust ports polished.
3 angle valve job.
stainless steel valves and better valve guides.
all balanced and head flowed.
crower stage 3 cam and springs.
titanium collets and ti retainers.
aem cam gear
aem fuel reg
240cc injectors
300 hp fuel pump.
cai whale penis
extractors high flow cat and 2.25 inch exhaust 2x 13 inch hot dogs to a magnaflow muffler.
hondata s300j
all waiting for tune.

comp is actually 13.1.

im sure ive missed something.

also i copied this build from d series. ill paste the link

[alessioo]

http://www.d-series.org/forums/engine-building/21761-building-powerful-street-na-d16y8-z6.html

i forgot to mention edelbrock performer x intake and 70 mm throttle body

[alessioo]

stock rods can only take 200hp before the snap. i threw a rod in my old d16y1 when it was turbo and that was making 220 hp lol. and it still drove with a rod hanging out of the motor

[TheSaint]

stock rods can only take 200hp before the snap. i threw a rod in my old d16y1 when it was turbo and that was making 220 hp lol. and it still drove with a rod hanging out of the motor

i just picked up a D16y1 that had had this happen - was still running with a snapped rod lol
head seems fine tho so im going to use that on my D15b7 block and run higher compression

problem with S300 is it only fits one car - i can do the tuning myself
so i might juss get ROM burner and some spare chips and do it all myself

i can do other makes of cars with the same thing than

[GSi_PSi]

So you dont have a dyno graph>? what shop/dyno did you do the run at?
137kw i call major epic bs
more like 137hp maybe you read the dyno wrong lol

[TheSaint]

that does sound pretty damn high for a D16y1 thats n/a
maybe a turbo D16y1 but not n/a

[dougie_504]

Nice to see it's finally on the road bro. Can I check it out some time? I wanna see what it feels like lol

[alessioo]

hey guys thanks for the criticism i will prove u wrong. MSC performance in radford st reservoir i got the dyno at.
dougie_504 sounds good man when ever ur free just let me know

[TheSaint]

hey guys thanks for the criticism i will prove u wrong. MSC performance in radford st reservoir i got the dyno at.
dougie_504 sounds good man when ever ur free just let me know

i would be happy to be proven wrong - an n/a D-Series with those mods making that kind of power would be amazing =)

[alessioo]

soon soon. going thailand next week and when i get back in sept im getting it tuned. going to bring back some parts from Bangkok

[mrwho]

This has to be the first D16 that I’ve ever seen that has made over 130KW ATW without a programmable ECU…

Firstly how did you calculate you’re static compression? A D16y1 head with P29’s doesn’t result in a compression of 13:1 unless you’ve either taken some off the head or some off the block to bring the pistons to deck or both.

Secondly what sized pistons are you running? Stock or oversized? I find it incredibly difficult to believe that you’re making that much power from stock bore. It is possible, however not with these mods.

Also, what do you mean by 'head was ported as much as it could go’? I hope you didn’t mean you just enlarged the sh*t out of the ports. What were the flow numbers if you mind me asking?

Why did you go with 70mm throttle body? I’m very much looking forward to seeing your torque curve….

Are the exhaust manifold and “cai whale penis” intake off the shelf or custom made parts?

[GSi_PSi]

Mate if you can pull those numbers even on a hub dyno ill be impressed. Why bother with B series or K swap lol
Seems very far fetched though, people make that power with a turbo build. Plus you even said thats not even tuned
Come on mate, an untuned allmotor D16Y making 137kw atw on a stock computer?

[GSi_PSi]

also 2.25inch exhaust only? bottle necking your crazy d16 much...

im pretty sure it was a butt dyno, they seem to be pretty accurate these days.

[alessioo]

hey man
it has a s300j and ive mucked around with the tuning just havent dyno tuned it atm.

the comp what i did was 2 layer head gasket and shaved head.

pistons are over sized.

im not to sure about the port. all i know is the guy who ported it builds 8 second motors and he knows how to make it flow.

i had a 70 mm throttle laying around so will see what the tuner says about it. i also have the stock 60 mm one just in case on the day it gets tuned.

the exhaust is custom expect the headers. whale penis is of the shelf.

also just to add. ive blown 2 gearboxes with in 2 weeks of putting in this motor :(

2.25 is a good size for an exhaust man for a 1.6 litre

you guys dont like my build or something.

will just leave the dyno sheets to do the talking

[mrwho]

No, I’m actually glad that you’ve stuck with a SOHC. I actually encourage more people to build them instead of swapping to a B or K because they’re so fun and cheap to play with not to mention they are highly underestimated.

What sized pistons are you running???

What do you mean by “mucked around with the tuning”? Do you have a wideband or are you just playing around with the maps blindly?

Did you get 137kw ATW with a 70mm throttle body or 60mm?

Cool can’t wait to see the dyno graph! Should be interesting.

[trism]

I also am betting on that power figure being hp not kw

[alessioo]

yeh i loved building this motor i did really have a good time cleaning it and putting it all back together.
76.5 mm pistons and had to get reliefs on the pistons for the valves.
a friend of mine had a wideband aem and we played around with it. mostly did base timing lower limiter and richened it up just while it was running in.
then i mucked around with it without the wideband just driving and tuning but nothing major.

70mm and sorry man it was 137 at the motor.

my goal with this car was to one day put it on stright gas injection and run some crazy comp like 15:1 or 16:1 and upgrade the rods.

[egb16b]

wow that is high... if it's for real good stuff man!!

what area are you from?? wouldn't mind checking it out some time.

[alessioo]

thanks egb16b. im in fawkner man. anytime ur free come down or will meet up.
i think once im tuned we should all meet up for a cruse

[mugen_ctr]

if it was 137kw at wheels, itd b closer to 110kw more or less @ wheels.... but very good power for d-series :D

[dougie_504]

Yeah I thought about 120kw atw what more like what the yanks got from a build similar to your's. Still an awesome figure anyway.

Can I ask what it cost you to build? Can't wait to see your dyno sheets.

[TheSaint]

I also am betting on that power figure being hp not kw

that seems realistic for this build

how much was taken off the head? and what kind of head gasket was used?

also size of the exhaust depends on flow output - not engine size
if the engine is making over 120kw than i would go for a 2.5"
my D15 is tuned at around 70-80kw with a 2.5"

as for the gearbox - try get a JDM D15b 5spd with OEM LSD - and have it installed with a Stage2 clutch and lightened flywheel

[alessioo]

cost me 2 grand but tuning is going to bring me over 3000.

2 layer head gasket 0.025 and took 0.020 off the head and the valves just touched

dunno much about exhaust size will see what the dyno says and if i need a 2.5 ill change it.
i had the 2.25 exhaust with my d15b7 and it just had enough back pressure.

i wish i could afford a jdm gearbox. atm i got a lightened flywheel and a extreme heavy duty clutch

[dougie_504]

When you're back from o/s lets catch up I wanna see this thing and get more details on build mate :)

also got pics?

[TheSaint]

When you're back from o/s lets catch up I wanna see this thing and get more details on build mate :)

also got pics?

get info and pics for me and email that shit over =)

[mocchi]

in for dyno sheet.

[hmetro24]

Guys, alessioo is asking for help, the engine is pinging, any idea why?
Also when he tune the car he will upload dyno pictures for sure.

[mocchi]

Guys, alessioo is asking for help, the engine is pinging, any idea why?
Also when he tune the car he will upload dyno pictures for sure.

didnt he said its not pinging anymore after he installed camshaft?

[gumus89]

And back pressure is a myth.

[GSi_PSi]

1+ gumus89 knows whats up.

[TheSaint]

yeah everyone was stressing so hard that D-series only need 2.25" exhaust piping

but i have had 2.25" and 2.5" on a few different D15's and D16's now and there hasnt been that much of a difference

if anything the headers and cat have made more of an effect than the DIA of the piping

[najdi]

have u tryd putting in bout half or 1/4 of e85? my mate had a pinging issue in his liberty n put e85 n fixed it

[gumus89]

have u tryd putting in bout half or 1/4 of e85? my mate had a pinging issue in his liberty n put e85 n fixed it

That didnt fix the problem, it masked it. If he was pinging on unleaded then he had some serious problems.

[dougie_504]

And back pressure is a myth.


So if I have a 2" exhaust on my or a 3" exhaust on my D16Y1, the 3" will be entirely superior and will produce a better power curve?

[GSi_PSi]

Quote
David Stadulis, Owner of SMSP HEADERS



"I challenge anyone to show me a dyno graph where ANY power is lost in ANY part of the powerband, from using a 3" exhaust vs something smaller on a Honda All Motor car. This theory about exhaust sizing comes from old school domestic cars people but real life testing has shown the opposite on Hondas at least and probably domestics with properly designed headers.

I run a 2.5" exhaust on my 1.8L vs a 3" because of noise issues and trouble with the law and visual inspections. If it wasn't for that and I could find a decently quiet 3" exhaust that doesn't have a straight through muffler (but still flows like one), I'd install it for the extra power."

[TheSaint]

i was happily suprised with the performance of the 2.5" stainless system on my D15b7
the only thing i dont like is that its a little loud

like i said - i would put more emphasis into header selection than exhaust
seems that on every car i have had headers make a much more dramatic effect

[mugen_ctr]

i was happily suprised with the performance of the 2.5" stainless system on my D15b7
the only thing i dont like is that its a little loud

like i said - i would put more emphasis into header selection than exhaust
seems that on every car i have had headers make a much more dramatic effect

yeap, 2.5inch on my d-series as well.... nothing wrong with it, though low end torque suffers a lil bit, top end feels much better, if you have a quality muffler, sound isnt so much a issue imo, on my car running a jdm cannon axle back, sounds great, quite as on idle, and when WOT, loud as fuk lol, can hear it for miles....

N/A cars are all about headers, i dunno where ppl say exhaust effects the output, but from my understanding, the header design is what makes or breaks a N/A car, i think best example is F1, they run NO exhaust system, but rather a intricate and very complex exhaust headers, R&D is the key to any successful N/A build

[TheSaint]

bisimoto D-series n/a headers

http://mycomputerninja.com/~jon/hondainfo/d-header/BisimotoHeader1.JPG

http://www.sohc.nl/pictures/engine/parts/bisimoto_v2_01.jpg

my muffler is letting my system down at the moment - its a second hand x-force s12 twinloop thats seen its day lol

[hmetro24]

What makes Header different ? What if the make them bigger tubing. I have seen 4-2-1 4-1 what about 4-4 . ANybody can explain that. Thanks

[TheSaint]

so you want 4 tail pipes, 4 cats and 4 mufflers? - that doesnt make sense lol
you would have to put a seperate exhaust sensor on each pipe and run each cylinder individually
... sorta defeats the point in having a multi-cylinder engine that is electronically controlled

piping size is calculated using the dimensions and flow characteristics of the engine
when a car is made in the factory (or a quality set of headers for that matter)
the original CC, port size, flow characteristics, intake size/length, stroke etc is all taken into consideration
formulas are than transposed etc to find the ideal range for the ID and OD (inside diameter and outside diameter) of the pipes

[dougie_504]

yeap, 2.5inch on my d-series as well.... nothing wrong with it, though low end torque suffers a lil bit, top end feels much better


So do you agree with GSi_PSi? Or TheSaint? Because GSi_PSi's post includes a quote from a bloke stating that 3" would never make less power at any point in the power band than a smaller exhaust, therefore putting to rest the false theory that you need smaller exhaust on Honda engines to maintain back pressure for low-end power.


I have a 60mm mild steel exhaust for my EG sedan with a 5Zigen muffler, but I never put it on because I was of the idea that my low-end would suffer and since I use it mostly for daily/suburban driving this would not be ideal compared to say...a 2" setup.

My header is excellent. 4-2-1 ceramic coated 2" outlet, made by 'Flowtech' which is a subsidiary of Holley in the USA, who I believe have a lot of R&D + reputation (although bankrupt now lol).

So if I were to get either 2" or 60mm high-flow cat and install the 60mm cat-back + muffler on my D16Y1 I shouldn't see any low-end power loss at all?


That would be great, because I thought it would make the car drive like a bit of a pig...

[mugen_ctr]

So do you agree with GSi_PSi? Or TheSaint? Because GSi_PSi's post includes a quote from a bloke stating that 3" would never make less power at any point in the power band than a smaller exhaust, therefore putting to rest the false theory that you need smaller exhaust on Honda engines to maintain back pressure for low-end power.


I have a 60mm mild steel exhaust for my EG sedan with a 5Zigen muffler, but I never put it on because I was of the idea that my low-end would suffer and since I use it mostly for daily/suburban driving this would not be ideal compared to say...a 2" setup.

My header is excellent. 4-2-1 ceramic coated 2" outlet, made by 'Flowtech' which is a subsidiary of Holley in the USA, who I believe have a lot of R&D + reputation (although bankrupt now lol).

So if I were to get either 2" or 60mm high-flow cat and install the 60mm cat-back + muffler on my D16Y1 I shouldn't see any low-end power loss at all?


That would be great, because I thought it would make the car drive like a bit of a pig...

goin from the saints post....

from my understanding and experience, the low end lost will be noticeable, but no to the extent where its un drivable like what every keyboard warrior says, top end will feel great, since it will breath much better, but as far as loss of torque, i can still keep up with traffic on a everyday basis...

Im no expert, but i remember when i got epa'd, the oem exhaust did make the car feel more responsive down low, so i will have to agree about the part about exhaust back pressure, but top end, the aftermarket cat back makes the car breath much better

[gumus89]

If you are going to get it tuned then go for it. Untuned there would be very little gain from a catback.
Ive read that exhaust gas velocity is the key and while the 3" will be slower, it will no long be the limiting factor in your exhaust. After your collector everythings a restriction.
There is a good thread with 2.5 vs 3 for a H22 and at the bottom end, the 2.5 has more power for a 500rpm span just before 3000 rpm. From there its no contest.

And FFS, forget back pressure, its all exhaust gas velocity. You want as little back pressure as possible all the time, it is what limits the exhaust at lower rpm.

[TheSaint]

goin from the saints post....

from my understanding and experience, the low end lost will be noticeable, but no to the extent where its un drivable like what every keyboard warrior says, top end will feel great, since it will breath much better, but as far as loss of torque, i can still keep up with traffic on a everyday basis...

Im no expert, but i remember when i got epa'd, the oem exhaust did make the car feel more responsive down low, so i will have to agree about the part about exhaust back pressure, but top end, the aftermarket cat back makes the car breath much better

i did notice a VERY SLIGHT loss in low end - but not enough to effect daily driving
my other mods pretty much make up for it though - ie lightened flywheel and CAI
i got a very nice low/mid boost from my headers - after which i installed the 2.5" stainless catback
so the catback just skimmed a little off the top of what i gained from the headers
but from installing the catback i did notice a nice boost in the top end
the only 2 problems are that my resonator buzz's at top end and my muffler is shot and drones like a humming power station

all in all - the D15b7 never really had any low end drivability in the first place lol
the only engine mod i can remember that helped daily driving was the headers

one thing that i will say is that my favourite 2 exhaust systems to date on cars were...
- the stock system on my Dc2 VTIR
- the Mugen catback on my Dc2 VTIR
they were both awsome

[GSi_PSi]

the stock system on a dc2 vtir is shithouse. feels like a gsi with it on srs.

[TheSaint]

thats strange - mine was great lol

[hmetro24]

Off topic question about O2 sensor. I have n*power header 4-2-1, it has 2 O2 sensors place . The 1st O2 is only reading from 1 cylinder. is it alright to allocate the o2 sensor to the 2nd O2 sensor in the end of the header?

[TbM]

^^Yep i run mine on the 2nd bung near the collector so it meters all 4 cylinders, you just cut the wire and solder in a new section of wire long enough to make it to the new location, make sure to heat shrink it as electrical tape will fall off under engine bay temps.
Link to pic of mine: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?151358-Installed-my-Extractors-EG4&p=3033537&viewfull=1#post3033537

[hmetro24]

Thanks a lot mate. I have like 5 6 O2 sensors, everytime i go Pick-a-part i take one for free ;)

[TheSaint]

iv been meaning to do this for ages =p

[TbM]

Lol TheSaint you said that last time :) It doesnt take long, next time your servicing your car just whip it out and extend it :) Id probably reset the ecu after but dunno if thats nessicary i just tend to do it whenever i change things on the engine.

[TheSaint]

Lol TheSaint just whip it out and extend it :)

sounds fun... =p

i honestly havnt had time to even look at my car lately =(

[TbM]

Lol i should of read that before i posted i could of worded that much better, you gotta watch out i say oddly suspicious things when im tired lol :) when i said whip it out i was refering to the O2 sensor lol.

[GSi_PSi]

saint - maybe you had a itr system, which is an excellent oem exhaust system

[TheSaint]

saint - maybe you had a itr system, which is an excellent oem exhaust system

while it is possible - i would hazard a guess that it was unlikely
when i bought the car the only mod it had was an apexi pod on the stock intake arm
and the previous owner didnt know what vtec was or much about the car at all

hrm..... it was an amazing exhaust tho - for a stock system it sounded and felt great lol

[mugen_ctr]

while it is possible - i would hazard a guess that it was unlikely
when i bought the car the only mod it had was an apexi pod on the stock intake arm
and the previous owner didnt know what vtec was or much about the car at all

hrm..... it was an amazing exhaust tho - for a stock system it sounded and felt great lol

ITR system are mandrel bent system, not crush bent system like Vtir, so thats a dead give away

[TheSaint]

havnt had the car in over 4 years - i honestly cant remember =/

[alessioo]

yep guys the cam stopped it pinging when im back we all should catch up and go for a drive. i keep u all posted. PS i just finished rebuilding my gearbox and it drained my life

[TheSaint]

got any pics of the car and engine bay?

[dougie_504]

This is cool. Who's in for a D-series meet? lol

I'll lock in mugen_ctr (he loves it) and myself!

[TheSaint]

ill reach over from WA =/

[alessioo]

have to take some. when i get back ill post them up

[mugen_ctr]

This is cool. Who's in for a D-series meet? lol

I'll lock in mugen_ctr (he loves it) and myself!

nice! and ill bring my mate along, his a d-series fanatic! Sounds like a plan dougie :D

[TheSaint]

FFFUUUUUU...... i hate living in WA lol

[alessioo]

guys i finally got it tuned. made 161 hp atws.
when we meeting for a cruse.......

[GSi_PSi]

Cool let's see the dyno sheet , hub dyno ?.

[NightKids]

Pics plz...

[dougie_504]

Take me for a drive please lol. Btw do you have any idea how much stronger the shotpeened pistons are?

[GSi_PSi]

bump for dyno sheet!

[alessioo]

Wish it made
More power but exhaust was not big enough.
MSC performance did an amazing job.

Current project ek4 vtir cams gears whale penis and Xforce system with hondata s300v2

[senna]

Thats impressive power, but she's getting a little bit lean there - try not to thrash it when the weather is hot...

Edit: Actually, looking at the Intake and Ambient temp, it was pretty warm in the dyno cell, so it should be a little safer when the temp is lower. Still, i would look at getting a CAI rather than a short ram to lower the intake temps... :thumbsup:

[alessioo]

Sold the car anyway but had the leaness fixed the next day.
Awesome turners

[senna]

Ahh, good to hear!

[dougie_504]

Why you sell man? D-soldier :(

Anyways I'm glad somebody finally used that build setup and proved it can make a little N/A power lol. More to be gotten out of it too by the looks of things!

[alessioo]

Had the ek vtir and I've always wanted one.
Plus no aircon in the eg : (

When I got the eg on the road tuned I busted a srt Chrysler lol
Pulled up next to me asked me wtf man what the hell is that motor.

Hehehe nar all shit aside went good.

Built it all myself

[alessioo]

Got some goodies.

[hmetro24]

Hey Alessioo, can you put the old build information, I am looking to build d16y1 or d16y8 na engine. clean engine bay ;)

[alessioo]

hey mate basically the build was from d series website

rebuilt bottom end ( kit from ebay)
oil pump ported and washerd up for high pressure
shot peened rods for extra security
P29 pistons off ebay with shaved head 13;5;1
block guard to stop the deck from moving at high rpm
shaved y1 head, intake port sand blasted for better fuel and air mix
exhaust port polished to let gases escape better. all ports made bigger but didn't need much as the head is good enough.

crower valve springs and retainers + crower stage 3 cam
arm fuel pressure reg set at 55psi
injectors recalibrate and cleaned
edlebrock performer x intake with slightly bored out throttle body
bigger fuel pump and hondata s300

2.25 exhaust high flow 100 cell cat and 4 2 1 extractors.

whale penis intake

sure I've left something out but feel free to ask me anything.

oh and lighten flywheel and extreme heavy duty clutch

[dougie_504]

So glad an Aussie finally did it and proved the SOHC D can make some power, even with a set of OEM pistons and rods. Had more power to offer too I'm sure as with custom gear you can get the compression to 14.5:1.

Props man!

[alessioo]

Thanks man.
The things that was holding the power back were
Cheap headers from eBay
Exhaust to small needed a 2.5
And throttle body needed more size.

Close ratio gear box wouldn't hurt

[dougie_504]

Yah.

SMP header is apparently the bomb for D's. And yeah exhaust too small bra.

[YinNoPiano]

hey mate, do you have any vids doing test runs with the motor?