Oversteer in my EK1 - thoughts?

[Alvis]

Hi guys,

With a bit of spirited driving on the weekend, I put my EK1 into a fairly decent bend and wanted to get your thoughts on the oversteer I experienced.

SITUATION:
Coming from 60km/h, braking before the corner with a blip change from 3rd to 2nd on entry (4,500+rpm), I accelerated hard through the left-hand corner. As I was probably half way through the corner I felt the rear end come loose quickly moving to the right and starting to try to overtake the front wheels.

While the front tyres weren't squealing for grip (there was a little bit of 'slip'), the car started to point left (ie the right rear was coming around), I kept the power down and with some opposite turn to the right, it straightened out.

CONDITIONS:
Dry and sunny, 19 degrees or so

CHASSIS SETUP:
Michelin Pilot Preceda II tyres (60% tread, F/R 36/32 psi). Normally have fronts at 40psi.
195/50/15 (EM1 rims)
Spoon Sports progressive lowering springs
Stock EK1 shocks (63,500kms)
Stock EK1 front sway bar
Mugen front tower bar
Stock D16Y4 with exhaust/ air intake


MY QUESTIONS:
Do you guys have any thoughts on the oversteer and how I can get the car to handle more true through the corners?

Did I do the right corrections to straighten it out?

Other thoughts:
(i) The car had been on a 2 hour rest from my previous drive that morning and the tyres had only driven 2kms since then when I put it through this corner. Were the tyres still too cold?

(ii) Did I just go into the corner too hard?

[mugen_ctr]

Rear sway bar asap! Will make the most improvement for ur car :D

Ive been in similar situations like what u been when i first got my car, but rather than put the pedal to the metal, i braked, instincts kicked in lol.....

few things to bear in mind..... Your suspension setup setup needs rear swaybar to keep the handling more predictable, having just springs an shockers dont cut it on the real world

Slowly learn the limits of ur car, if ur gonna do spirited driving every now and than, best to take it easy and slow, once u feel confident and feel how the car handles, u will know when the limits are, and learn how to take corners properly lol, on the track an off (PS: NOT ENCOURAGING ILLEGAL ROAD ACTIVITY)

and than find out what needs to be done to improve the driving, thats how ive done it the last 2 years, went from no rear sway bar, to 14mm, than onto a 20mm....., and now im at the point where, i see i need coil overs to improve on the handling as the springs are far to soft...... although i still have much to learn, im self learning on the way :D

Road tires differ greatly to track tires, they dont need to be warmed up as much, but the road conditions have the greatest impact on how well it performs

[Alvis]

Thanks mate, you always have good advice! :)

I thought my car might benefit from an rsb - I think I might try and locate an EK4/EM1 rsb - might be good to start with.

Would like to upgrade the shocks first, but they're probably still good to 90,000 so if I see an EK4 rsb on the market I might pick one up.

Are they 14mm or 16mm? And is there anything I should look out for when picking up a second hand one - endlinks etc?

[Lerlo]

Rear sway bar will probably give you more oversteer.
Im suffering from mid corner oversteer on my ek as well, got worse after I put on whiteline 23mm rear sway bar.
Try pushing it in the wet and see if its worse, be careful though.
I would suggest going for an alignment and checking your rear toe angle, if all else fails, tyre pressure makes hell of a difference.

[sebtoombs]

I have stock ek4 rear sway bar if you want it. Can have it for free, you would just have to cover postage from tassie. Let me know if you want it. Dunno if its any better than what you've got.

[Alvis]

Rear sway bar will probably give you more oversteer.
Im suffering from mid corner oversteer on my ek as well, got worse after I put on whiteline 23mm rear sway bar.
Try pushing it in the wet and see if its worse, be careful though.
I would suggest going for an alignment and checking your rear toe angle, if all else fails, tyre pressure makes hell of a difference.

Thanks for your feedback and yep, that's why I don't want to go too thick at this stage - pretty much whatever you increase the thickness of your rsb by, you times it to the power of 4 over your previous size to see exactly how much effect it has - so basically little increases in rsb thickness make a big difference in the way the car handles.

I would interested to try the EK4 rsb, but it might also mean I need to upgrade the fsb as well.

Do I need a subframe brace with a stock EK4 rsb on an EK1? It is better to be safe than sorry?



I have stock ek4 rear sway bar if you want it. Can have it for free, you would just have to cover postage from tassie. Let me know if you want it. Dunno if its any better than what you've got.

Thanks mate - wow, sounds good :) PM sent.

[trism]

Guys recommending adding a rear sway bar should reconsider posting without knowing what they're on about.

A stiff rsb is the leading cause of over steer. What I'd be doing is stiffening the front up. Alternatively, don't bother. It could've been a bad corner. If its the first time its happened, don't act straight away, see if it happens again.

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

[trism]

Also, I reckon it's a simple answer. Option b, you just went in too hard. A fwd will almost never under steer while acceleration. The most common is lift off over steer

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

[Alvis]

Guys recommending adding a rear sway bar should reconsider posting without knowing what they're on about.

A stiff rsb is the leading cause of over steer. What I'd be doing is stiffening the front up. Alternatively, don't bother. It could've been a bad corner. If its the first time its happened, don't act straight away, see if it happens again.


Also, I reckon it's a simple answer. Option b, you just went in too hard. A fwd will almost never under steer while acceleration. The most common is lift off over steer.

Yep, very true you have to be careful how thick you go because the changes can be quite dramatic, and if you really push it, even dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

And yes, it is the first time it's really happened - I have pushed it before but more into a sweeping corner, rather than this one which was more tighter in the way it came around, so I agree I could have been a combination of too much speed going into the corner, tyres not quite up to temp, and the psi was down a little from the 40 I normally have them at.

What are your thoughts on stiffening up the front - do you mean a thicker fsb (I already have the front tower bar)?

As I posted before, I would really like to test it with Spoon/Koni shocks fitted before going to a rsb.

Note: I have also had my bushes checked by Pedders and they are all fine, little crack/wear on the rear trailing arms bushes, but still ok.

[mugen_ctr]

Thicker fsw? i hear? disagree here..... unless you have been through none rear sway bar to adding one, i will contest strongly about not having one! the ek4 swaybar will improve things heaps here. In theroy yes, it will add over steer, but they are wrong! coming from experience, i think u do need a rsb :)

The only alternative to thicker fsw is ek4/em1/ek9, which is a 26mm, than having no rsb, is just pure understeer, as the rears will be all over the place, in short, the fronts are planted while the rear end will feel loose as a goose. U need both to make the handling work a treat. I know for fact some guys in the state take off rsb for gymkhana, but that stuff is totally different to taking the car on the road.

Dont resort to springs/shocks to keep the tires on the ground, use swaybars as well, they are there for a reason :)

[Alvis]

Thicker fsw? i hear? disagree here..... unless you have been through none rear sway bar to adding one, i will contest strongly about not having one! the ek4 swaybar will improve things heaps here. In theroy yes, it will add over steer, but they are wrong! coming from experience, i think u do need a rsb :)

The only alternative to thicker fsw is ek4/em1/ek9, which is a 26mm, than having no rsb, is just pure understeer, as the rears will be all over the place, in short, the fronts are planted while the rear end will feel loose as a goose. U need both to make the handling work a treat. I know for fact some guys in the state take off rsb for gymkhana, but that stuff is totally different to taking the car on the road.

Dont resort to springs/shocks to keep the tires on the ground, use swaybars as well, they are there for a reason :)

I think the key point is you really need to be careful as to the thickness you go for. You need to think carefully about your current setup and what future plans you have for the car, as this will ultimately determine how your car will handle. I have no doubt the EM1/EK4 setup works for a reason, and given the power output difference to an EK1 it will be more than enough.

2 QUESTIONS:

1. If I added an EK4 rsb (still undecided) do I need an ASR subframe brace?

2. Would it then make sense to upgrade to an EK4 fsb to balance it out? (otherwise I could be making the oversteer worse with the EK1 22mm fsb)

[trism]

1. No. It worked without one on the ek4, its got the same chassis as the ek1.

2. Yes you should.

How ever i think what we need to consider is this: you pushed harder than normal, on a corner you've never driven, on cold tyres. It's not a matter of needing to upgrade suspension components, its simply that you pushed the car past the limits of the tyres.

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

[TheSaint]

i agree with trism here - although i do not beleive that a RSB will help with your oversteer problem

i would recommend an Ultra Racing 4 Point Rear Strut Bar
and if your car is a sedan an Ultra Racing Floor/Room Bar

these will neutralize the handling a fair bit

as for the RSB - get an EK4/Dc2 14mm kit

you wont need an ASR kit for a 14mm RSB - but if you can just pick up a skunk2 tie brace
they are relatively cheap and will just provide some support for the RSB as the car hasnt had one its whole life

take a look at what i did with mine if u like in my build thread

[90LAN]

heres your problem here
Stock EK1 shocks (63,500kms)
Stock EK1 front sway bar

get a lsd and 205 tyres
or a b series so you would of got understeer lol

[Alvis]

1. No. It worked without one on the ek4, its got the same chassis as the ek1.

2. Yes you should.

How ever i think what we need to consider is this: you pushed harder than normal, on a corner you've never driven, on cold tyres. It's not a matter of needing to upgrade suspension components, its simply that you pushed the car past the limits of the tyres.

By all means the car is no EK9, so while it's limits are better than standard, I feel you're right and I might have gone past them on this corner; and with the tyres not being up to temp, it wouldn't have helped. But in saying that, there is room for improvement.

What this improvement is, is obviously still debatable...



i agree with trism here - although i do not beleive that a RSB will help with your oversteer problem

i would recommend an Ultra Racing 4 Point Rear Strut Bar
and if your car is a sedan an Ultra Racing Floor/Room Bar

these will neutralize the handling a fair bit

as for the RSB - get an EK4/Dc2 14mm kit

you wont need an ASR kit for a 14mm RSB - but if you can just pick up a skunk2 tie brace
they are relatively cheap and will just provide some support for the RSB as the car hasnt had one its whole life

take a look at what i did with mine if u like in my build thread

Thanks Saint - yeh I know Mugen make a rear tower bar that fits inside the boot to the rear suspension towers for the sedan, so I might need to do some more research on the effects of adding this - obvioulsy you've done this to your ride:

Do you get oversteer in your sedan if you push it within reason?



heres your problem here
Stock EK1 shocks (63,500kms)
Stock EK1 front sway bar

get a lsd and 205 tyres
or a b series so you would of got understeer lol

LOL - never one to mince words Lan hehe :)

I've been told the shocks are good till about 90,000 - all checked 6 months ago and no leaks + had a very easy life (occasionally it gets pushed!)

I know what you're saying, but I think there are other things I can look at before an lsd (bit of overkill for my application) and bigger tyres...

[TheSaint]

the sedan gets a tad more oversteer than the sedan - i used to get it with stock shocks and springs - once i upgraded to tein/skunk2 it was almost eliminated

the Ultra racing gear was the icing on the cake - u dont need to fork out for mugen - just get UR 4 point

the coupes - Dc2/Em1 are the worse for oversteer - 22mm RSB on a relatively stock Dc2 set on the hardest setting will put u sideways very easily lol

and as always - good quality tyres will help alot!

[vtecing]

Thought about learning to drive better, instead of trying to make the car do all the work. You could have the best set up car in the world but it wont mean anything if u cant drive it right.

Always do all of your braking in a straight line before the corner. Never jump on the brakes mid corner. If it feels like your about to slip, plant the throttle. Slow in fast out as they say. And always try to keep it smooth and consider balance and weight distribution.

[Temp3st]

Most people have already said the important shit I guess. for me I found that the rear sway bar didnt make much of a difference in terms of oversteer (mind you its an eg6 one its like a 12mm or some shit lol) but when i dropped the stiffness in the rear coilovers on my car i had a lot less oversteer and the car could attack most corners a fair bit faster

[Alvis]

the sedan gets a tad more oversteer than the sedan - i used to get it with stock shocks and springs - once i upgraded to tein/skunk2 it was almost eliminated

the Ultra racing gear was the icing on the cake - u dont need to fork out for mugen - just get UR 4 point

the coupes - Dc2/Em1 are the worse for oversteer - 22mm RSB on a relatively stock Dc2 set on the hardest setting will put u sideways very easily lol

and as always - good quality tyres will help alot!

I would be tempted to try this type of setup, but I'm not sure I want to put holes in my carpets!

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m579/apalmucci/Post%20Misc%20Honda%20Images/DSCN0871.jpg

[TheSaint]

i dont even have a floor in my boot - stripped it all down, sprayed it satin black - put in a space saver and bolted in a 4point rear strut brace

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/the_saint7/P3120405_e.jpg?t=1268548159

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/the_saint7/P3130408_e.jpg?t=1268548212

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/the_saint7/P3140419_e.jpg?t=1268548246

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/the_saint7/P3260473_3.jpg?t=1269617518

[Alvis]

WOW - that looks like some pretty serious hardware in there Saint :)

I've decided to test the car out again when the tyres are up to temp, the psi back up in the fronts and see how it goes.

Pending this I'll investigate final costs for an EK4 FSB/RSB and go from there.


Thank you ALL for ALL your input and thoughts, it's honestly been a really great help and appreciate it :)

Thanks guys and keep you posted :thumbsup:

[Alvis]

err... and just to confirm an EK4 fsb will fit a 98 EK1 gli?

I'm pretty sure I've read this is the case, but just wanted to double check if anyone can confirm :)

[vtecing]

Will fit with ek4 d-bush brackets and bushes

[mugen_ctr]

err... and just to confirm an EK4 fsb will fit a 98 EK1 gli?

I'm pretty sure I've read this is the case, but just wanted to double check if anyone can confirm :)

yeah lol, been there done it, everything will bolt up fine, no stress about sub frame tear out, the forces applied on the small 14mm isnt no where as much as a 22mm swaybar to cause tear out

[Cartoon]

Rear sway bar will not help, it will increase the over steer.

personally i think you need to learn you car more and get your driving skills up to the limits of the car first then look into mods.

[Alvis]

Will fit with ek4 d-bush brackets and bushes

Thanks mate :)


yeah lol, been there done it, everything will bolt up fine, no stress about sub frame tear out, the forces applied on the small 14mm isnt no where as much as a 22mm swaybar to cause tear out

Cool, good to hear you've been there too - cheers mate :)



Rear sway bar will not help, it will increase the over steer.

personally i think you need to learn you car more and get your driving skills up to the limits of the car first then look into mods.

Yep, I'd pay that comment. You're right. I really only get to drive the car on weekends around Wollongong, so I think it's time to take it for a few drives up some nice mountain roads we have down here and get to know the car a bit better (Mt. Keira, Stanwell Park, Kiama etc etc heaps of places so no excuses really...) just so hard to find the time on weekends (travel 4 hrs to and from work every day during the week and always busy on wkends)... but I'll keep it under the speed limit and within reason and see how things go :)

Thanks blokes :thumbsup:

[dc292177917]

with the setup of yr car
i think the oversteering might brought by the hard braking b4 the corner entry
becoz u r running with stock shocks which is soft as fk...
when u do hard braking, most of the weight is transferred to the front
the rear end became very very unstable
b4 sufficient weight to keep the rear end stable is transferred back
u turn the steering wheel and the rear came loose...just my 2cent
if u hv the funds, get a stiffer shock tgt with the EK4 rsb
and btw, one thing to point out...
sway bars are to control the body roll, not similar to how yr tower bar works

[Alvis]

with the setup of yr car
i think the oversteering might brought by the hard braking b4 the corner entry
becoz u r running with stock shocks which is soft as fk...
when u do hard braking, most of the weight is transferred to the front
the rear end became very very unstable
b4 sufficient weight to keep the rear end stable is transferred back
u turn the steering wheel and the rear came loose...just my 2cent
if u hv the funds, get a stiffer shock tgt with the EK4 rsb
and btw, one thing to point out...
sway bars are to control the body roll, not similar to how yr tower bar works

Thanks mate, yeh I feel it's really a combination of factors which may have led to it, where the negative factors far outweighed the positive:

1. Tyres not up to temp + lower than normal psi
2. Entry too quick
3. Possibly late braking - driver misjudge/error/ don't know car well enough
4. Tight/awkward corner (not a sweeping corner)
5. Stock shocks
6. Stock fsb and no rsb
7. No rear tower bar

As a result I've been sourcing some info on rsbs/fsbs - does anyone know someone selling an EK4 fsb - how much do they go for on the market generally?

[Temp3st]

Lower than normal psi should be the counter to oversteer man, because the less psi you run the more rubber sits on the road, which would increase grip.

[Alvis]

Lower than normal psi should be the counter to oversteer man, because the less psi you run the more rubber sits on the road, which would increase grip.

What psi do you guys run f/r?

[mugen_ctr]

What psi do you guys run f/r?

depends on the tire size though. With lower profile tires, generally around 36psi all around, which is what i run, on a 205/45R16 tire

if i recall oem tires specifies 31 or 32 psi standard tires.

With some much lower profiles, ppl run around 40psi from what ive found.

Having lower pressure tires, can cause premature tire wear from my experience.

[Alvis]

Yeh I used to put 36psi in my rears but noticed on last check it was wearing the middles quicker than the outsides and insides so taken it back to 32psi to see how that goes... plus I don't really have back seat passengers anyway...

Running 40psi in the front on 195/50/15 and they seem to be wearing perfectly middle/outside/inside so pretty happy with this setting

[Temp3st]

I personally dont give a shit about wear hahaha but yeah I'm running mine 36 at front and rear, they're 205/50/15s and they have been wearing pretty well imo. Cant wait till i can get some stickier ones on there though. Slightly lower tyre pressure will cause premature tyre wear as well as slightly worse fuel economy, but they stick to the road much better so meh :P

[Bludger]

By all means the car is no EK9, so while it's limits are better than standard, I feel you're right and I might have gone past them on this corner; and with the tyres not being up to temp, it wouldn't have helped. But in saying that, there is room for improvement.

What this improvement is, is obviously still debatable...




Thanks Saint - yeh I know Mugen make a rear tower bar that fits inside the boot to the rear suspension towers for the sedan, so I might need to do some more research on the effects of adding this - obvioulsy you've done this to your ride:

Do you get oversteer in your sedan if you push it within reason?




LOL - never one to mince words Lan hehe :)

I've been told the shocks are good till about 90,000 - all checked 6 months ago and no leaks + had a very easy life (occasionally it gets pushed!)

I know what you're saying, but I think there are other things I can look at before an lsd (bit of overkill for my application) and bigger tyres...so the shocks are through 2/3 of their life?

yeah, they still good.........

[Alvis]

I personally dont give a shit about wear hahaha but yeah I'm running mine 36 at front and rear, they're 205/50/15s and they have been wearing pretty well imo. Cant wait till i can get some stickier ones on there though. Slightly lower tyre pressure will cause premature tyre wear as well as slightly worse fuel economy, but they stick to the road much better so meh :P

36 is ok and like you said more grip so win-win! ;)

[Temp3st]

Meh, unless they're DC2R shocks n springs they still handle pretty terribly, even my bro's EM1 has trouble through some corners. Coilovers ftw :D

[Alvis]

so the shocks are through 2/3 of their life?

yeah, they still good.........

have to keep a check on them from time to time though - actually heard a 'cloonk' noise come from the left hand side rear going up my driveway tonight, only happens occasionally... not sure what that would be though... maybe the slight drop has shifted something in the suspension... was only a 20mm drop...?

[Bludger]

I was being sarcastic man.

replace them.

If it was a Daily grind car, then I would leave it.

You're putting all this nice stuff onto your car, might as well do the whole lot with the same care and thought

[nigs]

My current setup still has stock shocks in it (EG4) with only King Springs. Who knows how old they are. =\
It's not all that bad, I'm about 1 second off the pace for Clubman @ QR.

Make sure the car is settled and stable as you enter the corner, nothing wrong with still being on the brakes. Just be smooth.
Sounds like you over shot the apex on a "awkward" corner.

[Alvis]

My current setup still has stock shocks in it (EG4) with only King Springs. Who knows how old they are. =\
It's not all that bad, I'm about 1 second off the pace for Clubman @ QR.

Make sure the car is settled and stable as you enter the corner, nothing wrong with still being on the brakes. Just be smooth.
Sounds like you over shot the apex on a "awkward" corner.

Yep, most likely went past it and contributed to the result I had. But interesting to see you're not far off the pace with the stock shocks...




I was being sarcastic man.

replace them.

If it was a Daily grind car, then I would leave it.

You're putting all this nice stuff onto your car, might as well do the whole lot with the same care and thought


LOL - I thought you were being sarcastic! HA :)

Yeh I know I've kinda scabbed on the shocks at the moment - only because that was the advice from Pedders not to change until about 90k. But I might re-visit that advice sooner rather than later...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BUT I actually had another incident this morning when I was getting the pink slip for my car (not oversteer related, but brake related).


I took it down to my mechanic,who I know well, and he took it out for the brake test (hooks up a machine to the brake pedal) which involves accelerating to about 30k/h and then performing an emergency stop.

The fronts were fine, but the back wheels locked up, skidding as it they were dragging as the car was coming to a stop. So he took it around the block again and did the test again. Same result.

I thought well tyres aren't warm cause I'd gone there straight from home (literally 2kms down the road) and the road was wet so was probably all a contributing factor.

Anyway, I took it out for a drive to get them up to temp (had to visit my grandma in hospital so did a good 40km trip) and then tested it in a back street. By the time I did the test the road was dry and guess what. The same result. The back tyres locked up, but the fronts were fine?

WTF?

My mechanic said it's worth taking a look at the calipers, but could also be a fault in the master cylinder (something about a primary?) that goes to the rear brakes.

What are your thoughts on this? I know the weight is going to the front when braking, but the fronts are fine no skidding...?

[Temp3st]

The rears are locking up on normal brakes? Dude thats ****ed up

[grifty]

it should be the other way around, during hard braking the fronts should lock up, the rear tyres should never lock up.

[Alvis]

The rears are locking up on normal brakes? Dude thats ****ed up


it should be the other way around, during hard braking the fronts should lock up, the rear tyres should never lock up.

Exactly. Under normal braking it's fine, but when we slammed the brakes on from 30-40km/h to dead stop, the rears skid...

The car still has the original discs and brake pads (70% still left on the pads after 60,000kms on the clock according to the Pedders check 6 months ago) and everything else checked out fine. It's never been raced or tracked, the brakes are bled every 10,000kms along with the fluid changed with Castrol DOT 4/5 (been 5,000kms since last time this was done)...

Have any of you heard this before? So strange for a car that's always been meticulously maintained...?

... sounds like there is a possible mechanical gremlin somewhere...?

[grifty]

i would check out the rear calipers, it could possibly be a siezed handbrake mechanism which could be already pushing the pads into the disc.

before actually taking the wheel off to check it out spin the rear tyres to see if they are moving freely and not binding due to a siezed handbrake mechanism.

[trism]

Doubt it. Prob the proportioning valve.

[Alvis]

i would check out the rear calipers, it could possibly be a siezed handbrake mechanism which could be already pushing the pads into the disc.

before actually taking the wheel off to check it out spin the rear tyres to see if they are moving freely and not binding due to a siezed handbrake mechanism.


Doubt it. Prob the proportioning valve.


Thanks guys, I'll be pulling the back wheels off anyway to have an inspection so I'll check the calipers as well.

This looks like the proportioning valve here (never knew about this before!)

Trism - so what you're saying is that it's not getting enough fluid pumped to the rear calipers? Or too much fluid because they're locking up? i.e. either way the 'proportion of fluid' is not right?

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m579/apalmucci/Post%20Misc%20Honda%20Images/yhst-1408381693991_1862_17163477.jpg

[trism]

Yep, either too much fluid, or too much pressure

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

[Alvis]

Yep, either too much fluid, or too much pressure

Thanks very much mate, you're so knowledgeable! How do you know all this?

I'll check it out with my Dad and see how I go :)

Keep you posted fellas.

Cheers again for all your help, really appreciate it :thumbsup:

[Alvis]

Oh, and I took some quick shots today so I thought the least I could do is post to show appreciation for the help.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/7528/dsc01159edit.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/192/dsc01159edit.jpg/)

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9164/dsc01157edit.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/225/dsc01157edit.jpg/)

[dc292177917]

need more drop mate!!
clean car, love it :D

[vtecing]

man, u are becoming the drift king. Soon u'll b able to teach all the silvias how to do it

[Alvis]

word from Honda on the rear brake lock-up issue:

"It’s really hard to pin point exactly what the problem is but based on what you mentioned as it could be many of those things you said or even a combination of a few of them. I’d be starting with the master cylinder and working back towards the rear brakes.

My advice with this one is talk to our resident expert Service Manager who owns an EK1 himself and I’m sure he can resolve your issues. He’ll probably want to go on a road test with you to experience the brake lockup and inspect the condition of the callipers also."

Group Parts Manager
Wollongong City Motors, Honda

[trism]

Hey, at least they're putting in an effort to help you.

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

[Alvis]

Hey, at least they're putting in an effort to help you.

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

Yep, exactly. The guy there is really good - never had any problems with him and always very helpful.

PS. Out of curiosity I also got a quote on a new fsb and rsb from Honda - $1,100+... talk about extortion!

[mugen_ctr]

just out of curiosity, is urs a ABS model?

I know some ek1 did come with it, all ek4 and ej8 did though.

And forget the swaybars at honda lol, wreckers or private sellers all the way! I do believe one of the reasons why its so expensive is that its made to order, and than shipped to Aust. I know because i had some rsb brackets made up, but ended up being the wrong ones, so didnt end up returning them back for refund.

[Alvis]

just out of curiosity, is urs a ABS model?

I know some ek1 did come with it, all ek4 and ej8 did though.

And forget the swaybars at honda lol, wreckers or private sellers all the way! I do believe one of the reasons why its so expensive is that its made to order, and than shipped to Aust. I know because i had some rsb brackets made up, but ended up being the wrong ones, so didnt end up returning them back for refund.

Nope, no ABS (didn't know they came with it!)... and yep, there has to be some reason why they are so expensive... but I've decided before I go for rsb/fsb, I'm going to invest in a good set of shocks to go with the spoon springs - I'll either get Spoon shocks to match or yellow koni's.

Might not solve the entire oversteer problem, but it's a move in the right direction in getting the setup to all work together...

Anyone else running koni's - I've heard they're adjustable and people have said good things about them? But I also know it's good to match springs and shocks if they were meant to work together, so hence why leaning towards spoon...?

[mugen_ctr]

Maybe better off getting spoon shocks as they are tailored to each other, BUT they are heaps more expensive than the koni's, ur looking atleast 800 for the dampers, ontop of that also add the shipping price..... Since its a daily, my 2cent is on the koni's, price and proven to work well on the roads :)

And also, what rear lip is that? give us a back shot lol Is it the Honda access lip?

[Alvis]

Maybe better off getting spoon shocks as they are tailored to each other, BUT they are heaps more expensive than the koni's, ur looking atleast 800 for the dampers, ontop of that also add the shipping price..... Since its a daily, my 2cent is on the koni's, price and proven to work well on the roads :)

Yep, I think you're in the ball park around the $800 mark from what I've seen... I'd have to get a pretty good tax refund LOL :)

How much are they charging for Koni's these days and can you pick them up locally (ie in Australia)?

[Temp3st]

Ooorrrr you could not bother and leave it as is, after all its your daily, if it reacts that way to a corner, go slower. Shock and spring combos will only get you so far anyway.

[Alvis]

Ooorrrr you could not bother and leave it as is, after all its your daily, if it reacts that way to a corner, go slower. Shock and spring combos will only get you so far anyway.

True true :) I guess my line of thinking is I will have to change them out eventually, and I kinda knew that when I did the springs, but yes, until I get the brake issue resolved I won't be going too fast and taking it nice and easy into the corners :)

[MingZai]

-2 camber to the rear and -1.2 camber front!

[Temp3st]

Yeah thats it man, and its unnecessary to upgrade things if its just gonna be used for daily duties. Dont get me wrong if thats what you wanna do then go nuts. My shocks n springs in my eg were almost 200k kms old before I replaced them and they were still good then. Get the braking issue fixed and then worry about the other stuff. Personally if you intend on doing a lot of those corners (say living in the hills like i do :P) then I would probably suggest coilovers over a shock n spring combo, but if its only a once in a blue moon thing then yeah shocks might be the next step, keeping in mind though these days a good set of coilovers are only 1299, which isnt as expensive as it sounds. Just my 2c really

[Alvis]

Thanks Temp3st good common sense advice right there :)

UPDATE:
Interestingly, I spoke to Honda Service about the issue again this morning - the front brakes felt quite spongy last night so I'm figuring whatever the problem is it isn't resolving itself - and it doesn't seem like it is the Proportioning Valve.

Honda told me the proportioning valve actually works diagonally, side to side in the EK1s - so either your front left/rear right or your front right/left rear would lock up if it is a proportioning valve issue.

While they can't resolve the issue without looking at the car it is most likely something in the master cyclinder or rear calipers...

Planning take the calipers apart when my Dad gets back from hols to check it out...

Keep you guys posted :)

[dillon.ornelas]

if it was a once off you might have just pushed the car to far like the person above said, or taken an od line, it could have been the road surface/shape. if it happens frequently i would suggest better tires or better shocks, its vital to have matched springs and shocks for better performance and to prevent your springs from prematurely sagging. and good tires go a long way. i went from nankangs(bottom of the line) very tail happy for fwd to kumho ecsta which had far more grip and tend to understeer rather than oversteer

[Bludger]

I like this picture

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9164/dsc01157edit.jpg

[mugen_ctr]

Thanks Temp3st good common sense advice right there :)

UPDATE:
Interestingly, I spoke to Honda Service about the issue again this morning - the front brakes felt quite spongy last night so I'm figuring whatever the problem is it isn't resolving itself - and it doesn't seem like it is the Proportioning Valve.

Honda told me the proportioning valve actually works diagonally, side to side in the EK1s - so either your front left/rear right or your front right/left rear would lock up if it is a proportioning valve issue.

While they can't resolve the issue without looking at the car it is most likely something in the master cyclinder or rear calipers...

Planning take the calipers apart when my Dad gets back from hols to check it out...

Keep you guys posted :)

If ur really worried, put it on a brake tester maching and hopefully let it sort itself out lol....

http://www.absauto.com.au/index.php?id=35

[Alvis]

SOLUTION FOUND - in summary:

Underlying problem: air in the left hand side rear brake line

Solution: re-bleed the brakes

The problem ended up being some air in the rear brake line - we knew this because as soon as we took the rubber cap off the nipple it was wet with fluid - apparently it should be dry. All others were dry apart from that rear left one.

Took it for a brake test and now works fine under emergency braking :thumbsup:

Thanks for all your advice and help guys, really appreciate it (always nice to keep you guys posted on what the actual problem and solution was in case it happens to you) :)


-------------------------------
So while we were at it we also re-oiled the calipers with caliper compound to ensure they are now working squeaky clean and as good as new :p

OH, and I couldn't resist taking a 'dumped' photo while the car was jacked up lols

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/1231/dsc01203yv.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/dsc01203yv.jpg/)

[trism]

mad, good to hear you got it sorted out

[-Tom]

OH, and I couldn't resist taking a 'dumped' photo while the car was jacked up lols


If it's practical to drive like that, SLAM IT! Looks so good like that.

[Alvis]

Going back to the oversteer issue I had - check out the below reply from the NZ performance shop that sold me the spoon sport springs when I asked them about upgrading the oem shocks.... maybe could be a contributing, or should I say 'decontributing' factor to the handling of the car... it may also be why my brakes, while better, don't feel as sharp as what I think they should:

------------------------
I am personally not a huge fan of spring kits when they are not matched with dampers. This is because you generally shorten the stroke of the OEM shock which may be designed / tuned to work at longer strokes. Also, the range of stroke itself is shortened which means you have a greater chance of bottoming out the shock over bumps. To me, it makes entire sense to upgrade the shocks at the same time as the springs.

It also makes sense due to the age of a car also. Older shocks perform worse and worse and if you through fresh springs on, you end up overloading the spring with bound and rebound rather than the shock itself. This can result in worse handling, not better.

Anyways, that's just my personal thoughts. If I was to give a professional opinion I'd always recommend shocks / springs be upgraded at the same time and, where possible, matched.

[Alvis]

reviving this thread re: brakes, because I've come across brake pads made in Australia from a company called GSL Rallysport - has anyone heard of this Queensland company and their pads/disks QFM Performance Brake Pads?

They also stock other brands such as Project Mu, EBC and DBA:

http://gslrallysport.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=9

--------------------------------
I found out my Dad previously had these on his Civic and he was very happy with them - good bite, very very little dust and works good in hot and cold temps. PLUS cost wise they seem good bang for your buck going by the guys on the WRX forum below.

Reviews:
http://www.rexnet.com.au/forum/index.php?/topic/126758-qfm-vs-trw-pads/

http://www.astinagt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13999

http://forums.justcommodores.com.au/gsl-rallysport/89984-qfm-hpx-brake-pad-review.html


Any thoughts on this company and their pads - all feedback I've read is fairly positive so far...?

[Temp3st]

Well if you've read nothing but good things about them everywhere that sorta settles it doesn't it? And anyway its a road car with minimum modification especially power wise so IMO EBC green stuff should be more than adequate for the situation.

[Alvis]

Yeh I guess I was curious what you guys are running as pads?

Here are some of the braking co-efficients. The QFM HP-X ones seem to perform very well under cold and hot conditions with very similar co-efficients compared to the Project mu NS type.

Could only find an average for greenstuff which seems high at 0.55 (good once they heat up, but not sure about rotor wear and cold performance ie more street driving rather than continued hard stops...

QFM HP-X
Cold 0.41
Hot 0.42

QFM A1RM
Cold 0.40
Hot 0.48

Project mu NS Type
Cold 0.37
Hot 0.40

Project mu B Spec
Cold 0.32
Hot 0.45

EBC Greenstufff
Average 0.55

[eg5civic]

Do you ever track this car? If not icant see you justifying the extra money on mu pads. I got ebc greens all round on my eg with 96 itr brakes, and hot or cold I can make it lock up on demand. I think you'll fond unless you are running some sort or semi slick or road legal semi, you won't even e able to use the full capicity of the mu pads, as your tyres will lock up before you run out of bite on those pads.

[Temp3st]

Lol green stuff are basically street pads. I run yellowstuffs on my eg4, which is a massive overkill but I got them at such a dirt cheap price I wasn't complaining :P

[Alvis]

Do you ever track this car? If not icant see you justifying the extra money on mu pads. I got ebc greens all round on my eg with 96 itr brakes, and hot or cold I can make it lock up on demand. I think you'll fond unless you are running some sort or semi slick or road legal semi, you won't even e able to use the full capicity of the mu pads, as your tyres will lock up before you run out of bite on those pads.

I agree. Project mu is expensive. I think any decent pad is going to be a bit more expensive, but in saying that my original pads have been on the car for nearly 13 years so if I'm going to upgrade I want to get something better than OEM given I don't plan on changing them too often.

But after looking at the specs on the QFM Performance pads I think these are a better option over the Porject mu.

I'm waiting on a quote so keep you guys posted.

-------------------
Get this though - Honda quoted $206 oem front and $202 rears! Wtf! No wonder people buy aftermarket... seriously what a joke...

[Alvis]

Email chain below:


GSL RallySport - Matt <matt.nagy@gslrallysport.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Alvis,
>
> Thanks for checking , it's allways better to safe than sorry.
>
> QFM HPX front's $79 inc
> QFM HPX rear's $79 inc

> The rear HPX pad's we have on the shelf. The HPX front's are on a
> manufacturing backorder for roughly 3-4 weeks or we can supply an
> equivelant european pad for a bit more.

HPX we've phased out in favor
> of a better performance street pad. It's a European performance pad
> called Remsa, which is rated to 650 degrees (versus 550 for the HPX),
> whilst still being low rotor wear.

Also the Remsa come with noise
> reducing features such as a relief groove and shamfers in the pad
> material, as well as a soft backing shim, all of which the HPX do not
> come with. We've been supplying Remsa to high performance street road
> cars like Porsche and Ferrari for many years, but the pricing has now
> become such that we're now able to expand it to most road cars. We can
> still order the HPX in, but there may be a delay for manufacture etc.
>
> Remsa Front's $99
>
> PMU NS front's $180 inc
> PMU NS rear's $170 inc
>
> In the PMU range though, the equivelant pad to a HPX is a B-SPEC.
> PMU B-SPEC front's $230
> PMU B-SPEC rear's 180
>
> Any other questions please let me know.
>
> Regards Matt


--------------------------------------
Thanks Matt, it's good, I like your thoroughness and not just trying to sell
me anything. I will recommend your company on OzHonda to other forum
members.

Regarding the price on HPX, is that $79 for each pad (ie $79 x 4)?

Thanks also for the info on Remsa - can you tell me the cold/hot braking
co-efficient on these and what this pad would be equivalent to in PMU
series?

Thanks again,
Alvis



--------------------------------------
Hi Alvis,

Thanks for your feedback, we appreciate all the business we can get here.

All brakes usually come per axel set, so 4 pads per box ie $79 x 1.

Unfortunately Remsa don't release cold/hot co-efficient but it will be in
low to mid .4.

There isn't really an equivalent Remsa to a PMU but we would
put them somewhere between a B-SPEC and HC+, consider it a very high end
street pad/ low end track pad for the occasional hot lap.

Any other questions don't hesitate to ask.

Regards Matt

[Alvis]

I'd never heard of Remsa until today, apparently they are a supplier to VW.

Brake pad making process from Remsa:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3ElJYJMb8&feature=youtu.be