First Dyno Run, this might not be a good starting point

[THE 2BSEEN]

Hi all, I was wondering if i could get some advice on my dyno run. The figures to me look very low.
I dont think this is a good start but please tell me what your thoughts are

My car is a 89 crx with,
JDM b16a1 swap
Pod filter due to the swap (will buy AEM CAI)
Buddy Club spec 2 exhaust. Cat removed and test pipe straight through.

19534
19535
19533

[FAITHLESS]

ouch 70kw i cringed when i saw that and i don't even own the car. does it feel like it has 70kw?

[trism]

Looks about right for a 20 year old motor

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

[THE 2BSEEN]

ouch 70kw i cringed when i saw that and i don't even own the car. does it feel like it has 70kw?
I nearly laugh at my self when i seen it. check the torque out tho it says 138.7ftlb.
I'm doubting the dyno because it pulls really well
Any ideas

[Glocker]

You know what this means. K20 swap time

[THE 2BSEEN]

I was thinking b20vtec. but why is the power soo low, what can i do to fix the problem.

[Civic89]

Isnt around 100hp about normal though?

[FAITHLESS]

I nearly laugh at my self when i seen it. check the torque out tho it says 138.7ftlb.
I'm doubting the dyno because it pulls really well
Any ideas
yeah 138.7 seems way too high for 70kw. maybe the dyno wasn't registering the right rpm? idk.
if you think it pulls well then i doubt it would be 70kw anyway.

[FAITHLESS]

Isnt around 100hp about normal though?
no b16a1 should have around 150hp.
considering the age of the engine though, it's bound to have lost a bit of that.

[Civic89]

no b16a1 should have around 150hp.
considering the age of the engine though, it's bound to have lost a bit of that.

At the wheels? I wouldn't expect much more from my b16.

But then again, A dyno is a tuning tool only. Differences can be made even by the way its strapped down.

[THE 2BSEEN]

Yeah i think they are ment to have 145 atw.i might have to go all out with a major service lol.i think the engine has 180,000km.i just cant see why the torque and power is so out. Is any other way to test it.
At the end they are only numbers.

I have alot of cars, ford ef wagon, hq wagon, honda Civic cxi and also a 300zx tt
The CRX will beat my civic and ef.

[tripleuse]

Looks about right for a 20 year old motor

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

+1 what are u expecting from it. Check compressions, if shit b20 that bad boy.How accurate is the mileage?

[THE 2BSEEN]

+1 what are u expecting from it. Check compressions, if shit b20 that bad boy.How accurate is the mileage?

I think the 180 is spot on but ill find out. I want to get the power up for drags and want to see what it can do. I will be getting another crx with b16a type r motor so might do the b20 to one of them but want to fix what ive got

[egb16b]

does it feel like 70kw??? go get another reading elswhere on a different dyno if you wanna make sure.

haha bet you were all sad n shit after you saw that lol

[THE 2BSEEN]

it feels a lot fast than 70kw. as i drove the car out of the dyno room i seen evo 9, evo 8, wrx. yeah a lil sad

[egb16b]

yeah dyno reading could be a lil low maybe... ?? should've asked the owners if they had readouts from other b16's they might've tuned and compared them to yours.

[trism]

Like everyone has said, you cant just go off the power figure on a chassis dyno, because there is way too many variables.

You can go to 4 different dynos in one day, and get readings that vary by 50kw

Pretty much what civic89 wrote, its a tuning tool, and the only thing to really look at is the shape of the curve, and yours looks nice and smooth.

Dont read too much into the figure.

[THE 2BSEEN]

Like everyone has said, you cant just go off the power figure on a chassis dyno, because there is way too many variables.

You can go to 4 different dynos in one day, and get readings that vary by 50kw Dont read too much into the figure.


Pretty much what civic89 wrote, its a tuning tool, and the only thing to really look at is the shape of the curve, and yours looks nice and smooth.
Yeah thanks to all. I do understand, I might even take it back for some more runs. Say it is the car not the dyno what is the best way to tune it up and get the power back.

yeah dyno reading could be a lil low maybe... ?? should've asked the owners if they had readouts from other b16's they might've tuned and compared them to yours.
the dyno blokes have never had a honda in there. They deal with manly nissan, evos and race type cars

I could take my 300zx tt in to cheer my self up

[dc2r-0636]

Lmfao ^^^^

OP- what tyres did you have on ? For dyno runs you want the most old warn out old street tyre with a thin profile.

[FAITHLESS]

do you guys think that maybe the dyno is not setup to register the high rpm of a b16?? he said they are used to tuning evo's and wrx's. just saying, that would explain the torque and kw being so out. also, i thought dyno readouts were supposed to show the rpm and torque on one graph instead of the kw and kph.

[THE 2BSEEN]

Lmfao ^^^^

OP- what tyres did you have on ? For dyno runs you want the most old warn out old street tyre with a thin profile.

I did the dyno run with my 18inch chromies on with new treads. I can put on some old stocks if it makes a difference.

[dc2r-0636]

Well theres part of your problem. Big heavy wheels with new tread. The more stiction you have on the roler the lower your read out. Also inflate the old shitty tyre to 50psi and try to keep negative camber to a minimum.

[THE 2BSEEN]

Well theres part of your problem. Big heavy wheels with new tread. The more stiction you have on the roler the lower your read out. Also inflate the old shitty tyre to 50psi and try to keep negative camber to a minimum.

Yeah the wheels would be fn heavy, i am looking at getting some light weight 15s. may some enkei or go all out and get some buddy clubs

[trism]

Well theres part of your problem. Big heavy wheels with new tread. The more stiction you have on the roler the lower your read out. Also inflate the old shitty tyre to 50psi and try to keep negative camber to a minimum.

You are high. On a chassis dyno you need as much traction as possible, and fresh wheels, with low pressure will help this.

If you do a dyno run on old bald tyres, pumped up to 50psi, they will slip, and you will get an even lower reading.

Too top it all off, the weight of the wheels will barely effect the power figure.

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

[dc2r-0636]

You are high. On a chassis dyno you need as much traction as possible, and fresh wheels, with low pressure will help this.

If you do a dyno run on old bald tyres, pumped up to 50psi, they will slip, and you will get an even lower reading.

Too top it all off, the weight of the wheels will barely effect the power figure.

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

thats not true, big sticky tyres are the last thing you want when going on the dyno.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?128166-Time-Attack-DC2R-Build-Thread./page16 check out xntrik's build

also i have read in fast fours 2011 june, (page 57) about dyno tips. ect

[dougie_504]

This power figure is bad unless the dyno is very wrong.

Bullsh!t to all those people who tell you 70kw is acceptable for an engine that old - these same people will always be the first to tell you in another thread that age has nothing to do with an engine or car, only the management over those 20 years.

In decent condition a B16A should put down about 85kw at least with a simple I/H/E. Should range from 85-100kw depending on the health and I/H/E etc, but 70kw is downright wrong.

Make sure the spark plugs/leads are alright. Do a compression test. Make sure there is no problem. But if the engine compresses well, drive well, then it's probably fine and just a low-reading dyno. If it's not a low-reading dyno then you probably have an issue to address.

[THE 2BSEEN]

This power figure is bad unless the dyno is very wrong.

Bullsh!t to all those people who tell you 70kw is acceptable for an engine that old - these same people will always be the first to tell you in another thread that age has nothing to do with an engine or car, only the management over those 20 years.

In decent condition a B16A should put down about 85kw at least with a simple I/H/E. Should range from 85-100kw depending on the health and I/H/E etc, but 70kw is downright wrong.

Make sure the spark plugs/leads are alright. Do a compression test. Make sure there is no problem. But if the engine compresses well, drive well, then it's probably fine and just a low-reading dyno. If it's not a low-reading dyno then you probably have an issue to address.

The dyno torque result was 138.9 what would that relate to in hp?
Ill go down to my mechanic n see what he can tell me. Ill order some new spark plugs n leads

[mooshie]

recently got 82kw with my bog standard (inc exhaust etc) B16A on the same type of dyno. Having said that I have had 2 occasions in the past where, with the same setups but different dynos I got readings that were about 20kw difference. they were 86 compared to 104 and 157 compared to 135

[CivicEGSI]

How long ago was engine swap done?

[THE 2BSEEN]

recently got 82kw with my bog standard (inc exhaust etc) B16A on the same type of dyno. Having said that I have had 2 occasions in the past where, with the same setups but different dynos I got readings that were about 20kw difference. they were 86 compared to 104 and 157 compared to 135

yeah big difference aye. the dyno blokes are going to sus out results. He thinks the torque result could be right and all he normaly looks at is the torque result. He might get back to me today but most likely monday
Ill try to get a compression test done today. Ill cheak for error codes just for the sake of it, it was service not long a go. Any othere ideas to do

How long ago was engine swap done?
not sure but at less 18months
thanks for all the help

[CivicEGSI]

Check its maybe running in limp mode?

[espionage85]

my b20 vtec in my old EG civic made 130kw atw,
pulled an 13.6 down a quarter with street tyres, full trim n spare in it..
dont look into it to much..

how old is the engine?
there should be a date printed on it, back to front on the block i think..

[ceekay101]

Dc2rs with 140 something at the fly are only meant to have like 110 atw stock.. So expect some power loss but 70 from a car thats meant to have like 118 at the flywheel. I also have the b16, but have yet to dyno it.

[gensport]

I have read this thread, and i can see a lot of truths, and myths. I have a dyno shop with a dyno dynamics and i race a civic with a ZC (my other half's car) The best way to know what your car SHOULD be, is find out what it had originally. I think they were about 118kw at the fly, you can expect to drop between 25-30% So that puts you in the ballpark, at the lower end, but in there. I would do a run with the VTEC disconnected to make sure its coming in when should.Some times pod filters drop HP (but sound effen fantastic on VTEC) Wheels do make a difference. I had a customer who bought a del-sol with nice big bling bling heavy wheels, and it was slow as. the owner didn't believe that was the problem, so i put on a set of track wheels from our civic and sent him out for a test drive.... the look of astonishment on his face said it all. As was stated before, the dyno is a tuning tool, and the most important figure is the GAIN you make..

[THE 2BSEEN]

yeah thank you for all the advise. Im looking getting a compression test done on the engine. so with some luck that might be clear, if not i have found my problem.
The dyno times are a ruff guide to 1/4mile yeah? the time on the dyno sheet says 14.3, which would make it faster than stock?.
I am looking at buying some 949 racing wheels 15x8 +36. So that will fix any wheel weight problems.
I will be getting a AEM hybrid CAI to remove the pod

[dougie_504]

Dyno is not a rough guide on 1/4 mile. You will struggle to get 14.3. 15sec would be a decent pass with I/H/E and maybe some semis at the front.

Just get the compression test please. It's not hard or expensive at will generally rule out some potential problems.

[THE 2BSEEN]

Dyno is not a rough guide on 1/4 mile. You will struggle to get 14.3. 15sec would be a decent pass with I/H/E and maybe some semis at the front.

Just get the compression test please. It's not hard or expensive at will generally rule out some potential problems.

Yeah thanks man all booked in for the compression test. tomorrow the dyno boys should be getting back to me with overall results(they were going to go over the figures again)

[dougie_504]

Nice bro, nice.

Like I said in PM, could be a low-reading dyno or a problem, hard to tell.

If the compression is good then most likely your engine is healthy and you won't need to be too worried. Post up the figures when you get them.

[THE 2BSEEN]

Nice bro, nice.

Like I said in PM, could be a low-reading dyno or a problem, hard to tell.

If the compression is good then most likely your engine is healthy and you won't need to be too worried. Post up the figures when you get them.

No problem brother thanks again for the help

[dougie_504]

Fingers crossed for you mate. Really hope it works out. Keep us updated. B-series Gen2 CRX FTMFW.

[tiksie]

Just put some white out on that paper and get a crayon out and change the graph and numbers. Will make you happier!

Just for the record, I got 100kw at the wheels out of a B16A with I/H/E, skunk2 manifold, larger throttle body and a few other bits and bobs.

[THE 2BSEEN]

OK the dyno blokes got back to me.
The car is pulling 136ftlb of torque
Does produes 70kw at the wheels which he is more than happy with
compreshion test is happening on monday

[THE 2BSEEN]

Hi all i had a compression test and leak down test done to the car. It all passed well.

compression test
no1 190psi
no2 192psi
no3 189psi
no4 196psi

leak down test
no1 10%
no2 12%
no3 12%
no4 10%

I also went to another Dyno shop. Result were pretty much the same. I had 5 runs with very close to the same results

The torque was 136ftlb atw
70kw atw
110 hp atw.

I know alot of you have said dynos are only a tuning method. but I cant help to think that something has to be wrong with the engine.
If any one has any more ideas on what could be wrong please send me a msg.

thanks for all the help and ideas

[aaronng]

Sounds about right for power atw for a 22 year old engine. Even a brand new car on a dyno will show about 25% lower for the power figure atw compared to the flywheel. So a new B16A should show roughly 89-90 kW atw. Yours is pretty much in line then at 70kW given the age, especially if you have not owned the car since new as you would not know how the previous owner treated the engine.

[THE 2BSEEN]

very true any way of get some power back?

[trism]

A complete rebuild.

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

[THE 2BSEEN]

A complete rebuild.

Sent from my custard cannon like Peter North.

How much we talking ?....
Is it worth it ?.....
Has done 180 000km

[Bludger]

worth it???

hmmm......

I wonder who would know the answer to this?

[aaronng]

very true any way of get some power back?

If the compression and leak down tests are alright and comparable to engines of about 10 years old, then I would look at the oils used in the engine and the gearbox first. People commonly put in thicker oil because the engine is XX years old, but they don't take into account the compression/leak down tests which may indicate that the engine can still run on 0w-40 or 5w-40 oil. Then the other part is the gear box. Honda's gearbox is spec'd to run 75w80 MTF but the more common grade out there is 75w90, which is 1 step too thick. So you lose some power there as well. Then the next biggest contributor to power loss in the drivetrain would be your tyre+rim combo. Wider tyres are heavier with the weight concentrated on the outer diameter and hence reduces the power reading when tested on the dyno.



Is it worth it ?.....

Only you can answer that question. If it pulls well when you drive and the compression/leakdown results are good (which yours are since most mass-produced engines have a leakdown of 8-10% anyway even when new), then I wouldn't lose sleep on a low dyno result.

[dougie_504]

If I were you I wouldn't re-build if you're making that compression mate.

[gensport]

looking at the leakdown, your down on average 11% do the math, your in the ballpark, just at the lower end. Remember when an engine wears, it all wears, when we rebuild an eng, its with a full head service, new cams (even if standard) throttle body... the works. because it all effects the final dyno figure. like i said in an earlier post, the most important figure is the amount you gain.