Sump Gasket Problems...

[Super-DA9]

So straight to the point,

How the f*** do you get a sump gasket to seal properly?!

I've been through two new OEM gaskets now trying to get it to seal.

so I've tried using Ultra Copper and I've tried OEM sealant from honda.

I've done everything by the book, the pattern and torque specs. and no matter what I do the bloody rubber piece of s*** distorts and leaks.

Even with less torque then is recommended, and if I back it off to the point where there is no distortion, it just leaks out the bolt holes cause they aren't tight enough.

I'm going in for another attempt with a new gasket on wednesday, this time using a heavy duty sealant (permatex no. 2) on both sides and I'm thinking I'll just do up the bolts enough to squeeze the gasket, then leave it for most of the day to let the sealant begin to vulcanize, then torque it to spec and leave it overnight to fully vulcanize before re-filling it with oil the next day.

any input on this way of going about it? any tips or secrets to getting this bastard to stay shut with no leaks? anyones input is very welcome.

car is a DC2 Vti-R.

thanks guys. :)

[bennjamin]

Did u tighten in the usual cross cross pattern ?
U should do this and literally finger tighten each one. When all tight just give each one a quick nip up with a 10mm socket and small ratchet or bar etc
I usually smear the lightest thinnest line of liquid gasket and thin in out with my finger before applying the sump with new rubber gasket- never had a leak or a weep

[Super-DA9]

hey bennjamin. yeah I did do the cross pattern, and kept tweaking them bit by bit until up to torque spec. however I will try your suggestion of a slight tweak after finger tightening. quarter turn maybe?

yeah I did the same with the sealant. thanks for your help once again man.

[turtleEK1]

I had this same sought of issue with my old B20. I ended up replacing the oil pan to resolve the leak. My guess was the previous owner of the motor must have used a rattle gun or something and squashed the plate on the underside of the oil pans lip so it didn't keep tension on the gasket. Or the pan was warped.

[dougie_504]

Are you sure the sump isn't warped from age/heat exposure and is thus failing to seal?

Two of my friends with EF8's had to replace their sumps after going through 2-3 brand new gaskets each, they cleaned the old sumps, used gasket sealants etc, nothing worked.

You probably won't notice if it's warped by just looking with your eye, and often they can warp a little and not initially leak because they are sealed well to begin with, but once they start to leak a new gasket won't match properly because the sump isn't mating correctly.

If you fail again and the sump is old, consider it.

[DC2-PWR]

Doesn't sound too good Tim, dw your smart enough to figure it out =)

heres abit of search done for you to get rough cost ideas

B18C P72 oil pan $200
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2648/3760969169_d68df6cbc6.jpg?v=0

-B16/B18 oil pan rubber gasket $55
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2307/3538970960_f669e0f0a9.jpg?v=0

good luck bro let us know how you end up fixing it

[Super-DA9]

thanks guys! yeah I considered the warped possibility last time, I placed the pan upside down on a flat surface and it was not rocking back and forth at all, sat nice and flat. you'd think if it was warped it wouldn't sit nice and flush with a level surface, correct?

thanks moiz! I'm ordering a sump gasket from JDM Yard today, if it doesn't work this time I guess I'm gonna have to replace the pan. I guess $200 isn't too bad for a new sump, but hopefully I don't need to go that far :(

any objections with using sealant on both sides of the gasket?

[bennjamin]

id look at getting a baffled sump - such as a DC2 integra type R sump. It has light baffling which is perhaps a bonus ! Might as well if considering a new item.

[Super-DA9]

yeah if it doesn't work out I can look into that too. will let you know how it goes. :)

[riruiz_88]

is it advised to use sealant on the block and pan side?

[TODA AU]

From the Honda manual...

14: Tighten bolts and nuts finger tight at six points as shown below.

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/[IMG]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/B18Csumpgasket.jpghttp://www.ozhonda.com/forum/[IMG]http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/B18Csumpgasket.jpghttp://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TODA_AU/B18Csumpgasket.jpg

15: Tighten all bolts and nuts starting from bolt 1 clockwise in three steps.
NOTE: Excessive tightening can cause distortion of the oil pan gasket & oil leakage.

Torque : 12 N.m (1.2kgf.m, 8.7lbs'ft)

There's no requirement for sealant listed in the manual & IMO, no sealant is required.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say it generally makes matters worse.
When I do it, I just make sure the surfaces are spotlessly clean & a new gasket is used.
"Carby Cleaner" or Brake Clean" is your freind & the torque is critical.

Hope that helps.

[Benson]

Are you sure its still leaking from the sump? I had a similar problem happen to me before on my old motor and it turn out to be slight crack in the block (where the oil runs close to the alternator)

[Super-DA9]

hey adrian, thanks for your input. :)

thats the manual/instructions I followed last time, the order of tightening was fine but it was the 12NM amount of torque that distorted the gasket. :S

hmmm carby cleaner or brake cleaner, thats good as I have both here at home! I'll make sure it's extra clean.

oh well I think a little bit of sealant wouldn't hurt it, would it? this stuff is a gasket bonder/maker so it becomes very rubbery when dried properly and is sensor safe. I was thinking if I let it vulcanize under just enough torque to pinch it in place, then it wouldn't distort out as much when I do the final tweak?

although my idea is just a theory so if you really think it's a bad idea I guess I'll go without sealant and see what happens.

ahh man I'm not too sure now :S

[Super-DA9]

Are you sure its still leaking from the sump? I had a similar problem happen to me before on my old motor and it turn out to be slight crack in the block (where the oil runs close to the alternator)


Yeah man definitely the sump, I checked for cracks when I cleaned the bottom of the block last time.

[Super-DA9]

a friend of mine recommended that I use a low-strength threadlocker on the bolts so they don't loosen up while driving as they are a low torque application. apparently the bolts loosening off just the tiniest bit caused a similar problem for him. anyone know if this is a bad idea?

[Super-DA9]

so I pulled the sump off tonight, and whaddaya know it was warped. don't know how I didn't see it last time, but it is warped around most of the bolt holes which had caused the gasket to break in three places! that would be why I am going through gaskets so quickly.

will be calling up JDM Yard to order a new sump, and will hopefully receive it on friday.

this time I won't be using sealant, as adrian suggested, I will just clean the hell out of the blocks surface for the new gasket and pan.

would still appreciate some advice on using very mild threadlocker on the bolts to eliminate the possibility of them coming even a bit loose under the low torque.

I personally can't see what would be bad about using it as it is only a low strength under a low torque, but it would make me more confident in using or not using it with some advice.

thanks everyone you've all been a great help so far in solving this annoying issue. :)

[trism]

Imo a thread locker would be beneficial.

[dougie_504]

Glad you found the culprit, but sorry it's the more expensive option.

Didn't you also have a stuffed main relay last time?

[TODA AU]

You can use thread locker if you like but there's no requirement for it, just super clean & correct torque.
Good to hear you found the issue.

[Bludger]

sealer is good if you know the correct amount to apply.

[Super-DA9]

yeah I'm relieved I found out what it was. and yeah about a year ago I had an issue with a main relay dougie.

ok cool i think i will put a tiny bit of threadlocker on the bolts if it can't hurt. would like to be extra safe this time, getting pretty tired of removing the oil pan haha

[Bludger]

I would put on 4 small dots. 2 where the oil pump meets the block and 2 where the clutch housing meet the block, then smear it.

I also apply a thin bead around the whole gasket, pretty much as thin as humanly possible.

Cleaned all surfaces with acetone.

Can't remember sealer brand I used, but it's very common in our auto shops, it said for high temp oil seal.

I've only done one on a Honda, but its been perfect.

[Super-DA9]

thanks bludger :)

yeah I had read some threads on honda-tech about just putting dots in 2 or 4 places, but that was on a civic D-series which has a different sump. what honda did you change the gasket on?

[Bludger]

b18c.

[Super-DA9]

ok so disaster once again. FML.

got brand new genuine p72 oil pan, new gasket.

cleaned the sh*t out of the block surface with brake cleaner, scraper, rag.

using no sealer, put all the bolts in finger tight in order, then went round the tightening procedure many, many times with little tweaks until I got all the bolts perfect, torque set to 12NM.

the gasket had a nice even squeeze the whole way around the pan where I could see, not protruding from the pan more than about 1mm.

http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss263/soulbinder/photo.jpg

filled the car up with oil, came back an hour later and checked it, perfect. started it for a bit, came back another hour later to find a nice fkn fat leak on ONE corner where the block meets the clutch housing.

http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss263/soulbinder/photo-5.jpg

http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss263/soulbinder/photo-4.jpg

http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss263/soulbinder/photo-2.jpg

I seriously cannot figure out what could cause this big a leak when I'm pretty certain I did everything exactly right, and the rest of the pan seems to have a perfect seal.

this has got me so down right now, so any help would be really appreciated....

(images are linked because they are too high resolution.)

[DC2-PWR]

Drain the oil, take the sump out, and try again

focus on tightning it on where the leak is comming from more

had the same problem last night on my mates dc2r, took me 4 attempts but thankfully it was sorted

it sucks :(

[Super-DA9]

thanks moiz, yeah I will definitely try that today. it's really hard to know what happened because of the flywheel obstructing my vision in that area. hopefully the gasket is re-usable and not broken..

[Super-DA9]

so I discovered the culprit today. the two little metal rings had come off the last gasket and were hiding on the studs next to the flywheel. the fkn things were acting like spacers.. *sigh*

I put everything back the exact same way I did last night. not as happy with the gaskets shaping this time as it's not quite as straight all the way around as I had it the first time, but still up to torque spec and in order with lots of little tweaks.

after lying under the car while it was running for a while I didn't see any leaks, lets hope it stays that way..

I'm still really worried but only time will tell if it'll stay intact.

[TODA AU]

Check the torque on the nuts toward the rear,
From your pics the 2 rear nuts both appear to have less threads protruding than the others.
If the torque is correct, remove the sump & determine the obstruction.

What sump gasket did you use? Was it PR3 or P72?
P72 has metal spacers made into it to prevent crush, PR3 does not.
Or perhaps the old ones are still present around the base of the studs causeing a double-up (& leak)

[Super-DA9]

Or perhaps the old ones are still present around the base of the studs causeing a double-up (& leak)

thanks adrian, as stated above I discovered it was this. after removing the doubled up rings I went at it again without sealant and torqued it all to spec, and for what I could see with testing it today, it seems to be ok, but time will tell if it will stay fixed. I really hope so, it's a bloody nightmare getting under there and disassembling everything so regularly :S

[dougie_504]

Glad you got it sorted bro. I hope you didn't waste money on a new sump :(

[TODA AU]

thanks adrian, as stated above I discovered it was this. after removing the doubled up rings I went at it again without sealant and torqued it all to spec, and for what I could see with testing it today, it seems to be ok, but time will tell if it will stay fixed. I really hope so, it's a bloody nightmare getting under there and disassembling everything so regularly :S

:thumbsup: As they say, the devil is in the detail.
See how take 5 goes... :p

[Super-DA9]

Glad you got it sorted bro. I hope you didn't waste money on a new sump :(

unfortunately I did have to buy a new sump as my old one was warped as you suggested. :( however JDMYard helped me out and it was a lot better then going straight to honda.


:thumbsup: As they say, the devil is in the detail.
See how take 5 goes... :p

Haha yeah man you're too right. Well we'll see if this holds, it's about time it stays fixed!

[Bludger]

turn off much?

lol

[trism]

Wtf thread bump?

[Bludger]

has reference to this thread.....

[Super-DA9]

true bludger, true. however it's been pretty good since I fixed it last.

pretty sure if I have to take the sump off again I'll just jump off a cliff instead hahaha.