Whats The Best Stage 2 Cam To Use In a B18cr??

[Beechy]

hey Im looking at stage 2 cams to put in my car and was considering brain crower cam package for $1000 you get cams, Valves, valvesprings and Retainers?? Any thoughts would be great =]

[jdm18c]

Get some Toda cams cams b or c but you need to spen more than 1k

[Beechy]

how much you reckon? im chasing around 140kw at the wheels

[slingsy]

how much you reckon? im chasing around 140kw at the wheels

ah, it will be a HELL of a lot more than 1k.. for 140atw.

[Beechy]

yeah i no i got like 5k to play with but only wanna spend like 1k on cams

[jdm18c]

Lol low budget and big figures just dont mix,need more than 5k

[Alexplicit]

lol at this thread.

This is not need for speed there generally isnt stage 1 2 or 3, and if there is there is usually a street stage 1 -3 and drag 1 -3.
for 140kw atw, you will need AT LEAST

toda headers -$1000 -$1200

injen intake / mugen intake ( a real one not a replica ) $450 - $700

hondata - $ 800

tuning - $ 600 - 1000

Cams, Cam Gears, Springs, Retainers Timing belt - $ 2500 - 3000 at least and i would stay with toda gear if you include port work which you will probably need theres another $1k

(prices are a rough guess purely to prove a point!)

and before you do any of this, you should be checking the stability of your engine, is it in good enough condition to be upgrading yet?

cant just jump on the tuning band wagon before doing your general servicing, theres another few hundred. ( depending on your oils filters ect. )

Your best bet is to go and speak to a local tuner who knows hondas! tell them your budget and let THEM tell you what to expect.

where are you locatated? if you are in sydney, have a chat to Adrian at Toda, he has looked after me from the start of my integra's life right up until now. if you want any information have a look through the thread or pm me and ill point you in the right direction.

[dougie_504]

Read the last half dozen pages of this thread:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?91415-Cammed-Motors-Specs-DYNO-Graph-Mandatory/page46

And see what Adrian from TODA is doing with his B18's.


Keep your valves stock.
I/H/E.
Good port work.
Good cams.
Shave a little.
ECU + tune.

[Jccck]

toda headers -$1000 -$1200

injen intake / mugen intake ( a real one not a replica ) $450 - $700

hondata - $ 800

tuning - $ 600 - 1000

Cams, Cam Gears, Springs, Retainers Timing belt - $ 2500 - 3000 at least and i would stay with toda gear if you include port work which you will probably need theres another $1k

(prices are a rough guess purely to prove a point!)

Lol at this post.

If you pay anywhere near that sum for all of those parts.. You paid about $2000 more than you needed.
You buy parts from the US/Japan or wherever you wish.. And have the Motor built in Australia.. Never source your parts here, it's expensive as shit.

[TODA AU]

Lol at this post.

If you pay anywhere near that sum for all of those parts.. You paid about $2000 more than you needed.
You buy parts from the US/Japan or wherever you wish.. And have the Motor built in Australia.. Never source your parts here, it's expensive as shit.

Actually if you buy your Toda parts through me & I get the work,
The cams, springs, pulleys & belt will cost you $2079 incl GST (at today's exchange rate)
If you buy them online, today you'll pay at least $2320 for the same parts landed (no taxes)
If you were in Japan, you'd pay $2073 if you managed you skip the 5% consumption tax
If we add Toda header's then the price goes up to $3590
This is still cheaper than online stores...
(we also beat any online stores for supply if we get the work)
I know a few other reputable places that do the same too

Anyway, you go your way...
Just remember not all cams & headers are created equal & you kinda do get what you pay for.

[Jccck]

Just remember not all cams & headers are created equal & you kinda do get what you pay for.

Ofcourse, you're right.

But this man appears to be on a budget, and a $1500 Header isn't exactly good on the Power:Cost ratio.
He wants his goal, we're supposed to be pointing him towards a good solution.. Not the best of the best that is totally unnecessary and costs more than the car itself.
Every time somone asks for advice, all i see is high end stuff being recommended to people with relatively standard cars, and little car knowledge.

We're supposed to be helping, aren't we? Let's be realistic.

[TODA AU]

Ofcourse, you're right.

But this man appears to be on a budget, and a $1500 Header isn't exactly good on the Power:Cost ratio.
He wants his goal, we're supposed to be pointing him towards a good solution.. Not the best of the best that is totally unnecessary and costs more than the car itself.
Every time somone asks for advice, all i see is high end stuff being recommended to people with relatively standard cars, and little car knowledge.

We're supposed to be helping, aren't we? Let's be realistic.


An incorrect point was raised regarding parts I sell & I just replied to set that straight.
Re the OP’s boggle… Looking at both the budget & the power target,
To meet the target, realistically the budget needs to grow.
Or the power target should be revised down as it won’t be met.
Another issue is that not just anyone can meet the original power target with a std bottom end.
I can… (Been there – done that)
& guess what… It never works when you try & do it with low end parts.
How to do it is here:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?149751-120-140KW-b18cr/page13
Dyno proof is here:
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?91415-Cammed-Motors-Specs-DYNO-Graph-Mandatory/page46
No snake oil, no smoke & mirrors… straight up with proven results.
I think that’s being realistic.

[Slaz]

Ofcourse, you're right.

But this man appears to be on a budget, and a $1500 Header isn't exactly good on the Power:Cost ratio.
He wants his goal, we're supposed to be pointing him towards a good solution.. Not the best of the best that is totally unnecessary and costs more than the car itself.
Every time somone asks for advice, all i see is high end stuff being recommended to people with relatively standard cars, and little car knowledge.

We're supposed to be helping, aren't we? Let's be realistic.

Well about helping the man then with your knowledge and enlighten us all on how YOU would go about it opposed to some broad statement that discredits proven parts and or services, as you come across as if you know your shit?

[Jccck]

Usually inexperienced people will set an unrealistic goal.. Regardless of budget, so in most cases the goal is lowered when they 'learn' a few things.

I didn't imply that you had to purchase chinese eBay performance parts for the build.
But $700 on a Mugen/Injen Intake is a REDICULOUS waste of money.

Ofcourse it's possible, 140kw is a small fraction of the N/A potential of a Honda Motor.
But Axeplicit quoted almost $6000 for 140kw.. You've got to be kidding.

[Jccck]

Well about helping the man then with your knowledge and enlighten us all on how YOU would go about it opposed to some broad statement that discredits proven parts and or services, as you come across as if you know your shit?

Sure.

Clean, Port/Polish+Shave the Head ($500ish)
Gasket match the Intake Manifold (Most people can do this with a Dremel for free)
Buy a new TB ($150ish) ..But i wouldn't bother
AEM, Weapon R, or even just some flashy Intake Piping with an Apexi/K&N Filter (150 gets you something nice, and 500+ gets you a whisker more power.. You decide)
Camshafts (Whatever you wish to pay)
Cam Gear (Same as above)
Springs+Retainers ($400ish)
AEM EMS+Dynotune ($1600-2000 Depends where you buy it from, and who's your tuner)
Exhaust+Hiflow Cat ($600-900 Depending on the Cat, and the piping)
Header (You can spend anywhere from $100 to $1500.. Your choice)
Intake Manifold Heat-Shielding Gasket ($50ish)
Rerout the Coolant Lines in the TB (Free)

Did i miss anything?
I fully support the market of quality parts.. But if i were to toss up between spending twice the amount of money on a bolt-on that WON'T blow my Motor up, that will only net 10-15% more power.. I feel the money is better spent on another mod.
Why can't people agree with this??

[Alexplicit]

you want proven performance, you pay the dollar.

sure you can get things that work, but the amount of engineering that goes in them is what you pay for.

im in no way shape or form an expert of any car, but when someone i know races hondas, and builds performance honda engines for a living and has seen every variation of parts used and tells me what parts to use to get every bit of power out of my car im going to listen. and if that means saving for a bit longer so be it.

[Slaz]

Sure.

Clean, Port/Polish+Shave the Head ($500ish)
Gasket match the Intake Manifold (Most people can do this with a Dremel for free)
Buy a new TB ($150ish) ..But i wouldn't bother
AEM, Weapon R, or even just some flashy Intake Piping with an Apexi/K&N Filter (150 gets you something nice, and 500+ gets you a whisker more power.. You decide)
Camshafts (Whatever you wish to pay)
Cam Gear (Same as above)
Springs+Retainers ($400ish)
AEM EMS+Dynotune ($1600-2000 Depends where you buy it from, and who's your tuner)
Exhaust+Hiflow Cat ($600-900 Depending on the Cat, and the piping)
Header (You can spend anywhere from $100 to $1500.. Your choice)
Intake Manifold Heat-Shielding Gasket ($50ish)
Rerout the Coolant Lines in the TB (Free)

Did i miss anything?
I fully support the market of quality parts.. But if i were to toss up between spending twice the amount of money on a bolt-on that WON'T blow my Motor up, that will only net 10-15% more power.. I feel the money is better spent on another mod.
Why can't people agree with this??

F me, a proper head service with no porting will set you back $500! :confused:

But yes for me anyway, you missed the part where you were going to explain what combination of parts within his budget were going to help him obtain his goal in power and budget from your knowledge, not write a list of areas to consider with a price range of what can be spent.

Can I ask, what B series engine have you bought, built, had built, owned that gives you some idea of what parts, what builder/tuner and the outcome of this build at what price point?

This for me given your earlier statment and obvious knowledge would be handy for me....

[Benson]

To the OP,

Before you put in the cams in, make sure you have other supporting mods for the motor.

Here is a breakdown of what i would use -

4-2-1 Tri-Y headers - $400-$500
Custom Intake + BLox Air Filter - $350 - $400
Hondata S300 + tuning - $1250
Full Exhaust system - $1000

This will net you 125-130kw's on a internally stock dc2r. Add a set of cams, might get you up to 135-140kw's

Hope that helps anwser your question.

[GSi_PSi]

Lol Adrian, Leo and Alex don't bother with this jcck guy he likes to talk and can never back up any of his claims. Apparently according to him all non-Vtec heads flow and respond to mods better than Vtec heads.
I like the bit in his post where he pointed out what Ever you wish to pay for camshafts and camgears lol wtf I want to pay for plastic camshafts because there cheap and it should work the same as the quality stuf riiiiight ???

Off the shelf toda has the best header available in Australia for the b16/b18c engines, and countless times I've seen toda equipment just pull amazing numbers and amazing times. Sure you can grab replicas and cheaper items but if you want a almost guaranteed power figure then toda as shown by his recent b18c builds is the way to go.

[tripleuse]

**** the b go k :)

[Alexplicit]

FOR 5K??? WHERE WHERE WHERE TELL ME TELL ME hehe :p

[Mr.Brightside]

k20a3 motor :)

[tripleuse]

i got a k20 with 6 speed gearbox under 5k LOL, he has 10k to run with from his previous posts. and k24 would be even cheaper, b series is a waste of time/money IMO

[Mr.Brightside]

i got a k20 with 6 speed gearbox under 5k LOL, he has 10k to run with from his previous posts. and k24 would be even cheaper, b series is a waste of time/money IMO
K-Series isn't everyones cup of tea so to speak, a B18C7 with bolt ons and tune can still be very fun.

[Slaz]

i got a k20 with 6 speed gearbox under 5k LOL, he has 10k to run with from his previous posts. and k24 would be even cheaper, b series is a waste of time/money IMO

How much for the associated parts and fitting though roughly on a k set-up?

[DLO01]

Lets keep to topic please.

[TODA AU]

Bla... bla... bla...
Did i miss anything?
Bla.. Bla...bla...
Yup... You missed the powertarget - Big time

- Your head port is obviously done by an expert that knows what his time is worth...
- Gasket match is a big step backwards.
- TB is a waste of money
- Your intake is a defect - straight up.
- Camshaft selection is critical, not anyone will do...
- Cam pulleys (not gears) need to be reliable. So not just anything will do. (+ a vernier scale makes a huge differnce)
- Springs & ret's need to be that which is recommended by the cam manufacturer, nothing else.
- AEM is the prince of darkness as far as Honda aftermarket ECU's go. There are plently of better systems available.
- Your exhaust is likley done by the same head expert who values his time & to meet the power target you simply won't with an ebay header.
- Heat sheild gasket = snake oil
- Reroute colant lines - whoopie... Theoretical power, try measuring the change, lol

[Scholzey]

why does no one talk about rev range?

what about bottom end? what about compression?

that will dictate the design of everything else.

im sure the torque of a stock b18c will only be beaten by a relatively small amount no matter what you do, if static compression is kept the same and pump fuel is used.

if the same compression ratio is used, you are only going to get more power from more revs. how many revs do stock bottom end guys like to go? that would be the first question.

pick cams that match the rev range you use. im not sure about alot of the cams you guys are talking about, but are you able to stand a slightly rougher idle, and go for cams with a larger primary and secondary cam profile like jun like to do, if you run a higher compression bottom end, you can get away with it on pump fuel with bigger low cam.

after you pick rev range you can decide on length and diameter of your exhaust runners and the type of merge they use 4-2-1 or 4-1 im unsure of the benifits of each of these compared to eachother.

rpm range dictates intake manifold runner length and area, and also plenum volume.

the most effective way to get the power you want is to run a setup with all the parts designed to work together, to match the size and potental of your bottom end.

it sounds like todas solution is like this. although this may seem expensive, it is almost a guaranteed result, depending on how your bottom end health is.

im sure there are other companys out there that provide complete solutions, but make sure they are proven.

buying a complete solution will help you avoid trying swapping out parts blindly trying to make power. which costs more in the end.



also toda au, the guy barely said a brand or type for any of the things he listed next to the prices, how can you say that any of that wont work purely based on its price?
intake pipe and computer is the only thing he has listed. you say the intake pipe will be an instant defect? what computer do you plan to use? hondata s100? how many other options are legal?

how can you say cutting out excess gasket thats in the airflows path is a big step backwards?

ok i have no idea what i have writen, but it took a long time..

[Alexplicit]

^^^^^^ this guy must be Jcck's Head Expert mechanic!!!

[rhys.l]

Haha this thread is hilarious. Anyone who isn't on the Toda bandwagon is getting slagged on big time. I respect Toda_au and the results he is able to achieve using Toda components, but there are other, just as valid paths you can take to add power to your engine and the day Ozhonda doesn't recognise this will be very sad indeed.

[TODA AU]

Scholzey
You did write a bit, LOL… (I will too in reply)
Ok, I didn’t mention rev range as the OP indicated a budget that doesn’t allow for a bottom end build if the power target is actually going to be addressed.
As such, that narrows the work to top end of the engine & so a rev limit of approx. 8800rpm
(stock bottom end & cams, springs etc.) You could go more, but at your own peril, plus the lack of higher compression tends to limit your peak rev power potential beyond 8500rpm.
Though you may be sure the torque won’t change, it in fact does & quite significantly.
The reason is the improvement to the engine’s volumetric efficiency.(it’s ability to consume air)
& that’s where the idea that only more revs will produce more power is incorrect.
Regarding picking a cam to suit your rev range, this idea sounds plausible at 1st glance & is if you know what you’re doing. But if you don’t, the market place is basically a minefield of mostly garbage & a few truly great parts. Unfortunately, when the customer does his research & buys his own cams, most people tend to over cam their engines to the detriment of power potential.
Of course, that’s not to say it can’t be done, it’s just not as straight forward as it appears on the surface.
Also, the “lumpy idle” is another myth about big cams. Vtec engines don’t have this problem.
There is a low cam & a high cam. When set up correctly, 99% of them have very good idle quality.
Sure, it’s a little rougher than stock, but by no means lumpy so to speak.
FWIW, these are the cams I rate for the std bottom end B18C application in order of effectiveness.
TODA A2’s or B’s, Rocket Motorsport M22x or xx, Skunk 2 Pro 1, BuddyClub Spec IV, Skunk2 Tuner 1
As for getting it right, time & time again it’s been said, it’s all about combination.
There needs to be a balance between cam selection, header, intake etc.
Get it wrong & you wasted your money. Get it right & you’re laughing.

Same goes for picking the lengths & diameters of pipes etc. & making your own headers.
If you know what you’re doing sure, go for it. You’ll likely burn a hole in your pocket & be slower than you would if you used a proven product but that’s your call.
As for off the shelf header’s that work… (Depending on cam selection)
TODA, Hytech, SMSP – & use real ones for best results.
Ebay cheapies will be ok if the power target is revised down, but don’t expect to make 140.
The other thing that headers change (a lot) is power output characteristic.
(If the head hasn’t been stuffed up by some clown)
This is where the Toda’s shine, anyway I digress

Regarding intake manifold & throttle,
Re engine type in OP, the factory parts from B18CR engine are fine, these do not need to be changed.

Regarding: “ the guy barely said a brand or type for any of the things he listed next to the prices, how can you say that any of that wont work purely based on its price?”
If you’re going to make claims about there being a better way, you need to back it up with specifics or to be frank you’re just talking out your arse.
I’ve been there & done that wasting countless hours on the dyno being “Harry Potter” turning other people’s Shiite into chocolate.
Fact is cheap, cheap internet research combo’s don’t work… Time & time again I see young guys waste money on cheap crap cause they’re too impatient to save up & do it once & do it right.
They read dribble online that is basically baseless bullshit & take it on board. This is a problem.
Sure, I guess I could be more polite. But if I treat everyone like silkworms they don’t get the message.
Eg: A $500 head port & service? One can only imagine the level of workmanship & attention to detail at this cost level. & it’s the attention to detail that matters here.
Further if you’re going to pull the head, the key to making more grunt is getting the valve angles right, this is cheap horsepower, but when $500 has to cover porting too, you can forget CNC 5 angles. You’d be lucky to have 2 ground by hand.

Re: ECU – Hondata is a much smarter option than AEM. There are plenty of other ECU’s out there that are better than the AEM too. But the Hondata is probably the closest to being legal.
Power FC, Link G4, Vipec, Haltech Platinum etc…

Re: “how can you say cutting out excess gasket that’s in the airflows path is a big step backwards?”
I think you’ve miss-read that. He said “gasket match the intake manifold” meaning open the ports to match the gasket both in the head & the manifold. This is a set backwards if you want to make more power out of a B as you’ll lose airspeed which is critical.
I guess you can take it as advice or not


Haha this thread is hilarious. Anyone who isn't on the Toda bandwagon is getting slagged on big time. I respect Toda_au and the results he is able to achieve using Toda components, but there are other, just as valid paths you can take to add power to your engine and the day Ozhonda doesn't recognise this will be very sad indeed.
It’s not so much for not being on a particular band wagon or not. It’s based on claims & can’t back it up with specifics. & in this case, the advice isn’t advice at all.
But I agree, there are other paths that can be taken. Some are less effective than other’s.
The path I recommend is a sure thing. That said, I can do it with a couple of different cam & or header combinations too. (Sure the output characteristic changes, but target is still met)
Most others can only offer a maybe…
When the cost ends up being similar, what would you rather?

[DC2-PWR]

holy shit

[TGW92]

holy shit

AHAHAHahHAhha Moiz I lol'd hard xD

Toda AU you always have massive posts, and they're always massively informative :)

[Slaz]

It’s not so much for not being on a particular band wagon or not. It’s based on claims & can’t back it up with specifics. & in this case, the advice isn’t advice at all.

Well said!

This is what I have a problem with, rubbish information with no back up just a warm feeling that due to reading so much on the net they know what works. That isnt helping, thats promoting another shite set-up with more often then not more spent in the end with a crap outcome.

I dont know about most people, but if I have no idea about something, I tend not to comment or suggest what others should do and then discredit those who do it for a living, but when I do offer advice, I should have the ability to back up my information or suggestions.

My 2 cents. :confused:

[Scholzey]

It's good having people know what they are talking about, have experience and who have done alot of r n d.

Let us know what you end up choosing and your results!

Oh, my setup was purely based on Internet research, it worked out well, didn't make numbers, only went 300whp and at Full weight ek 11.38@123 on pump fuel.. Oh tiny turbo too lol gt2871r.

Internet can be good if you don't rush, and make sure you choose parts for your needs, oh and also remember hp numbers from the USA always seem exaggerated. If you plan basing your numbers off of one of there setups.

Almost forgot, I hear most benefit of porting is in the valvejob and bowl area anyway, is that correct. Oh the gasket matching you are talking about seems rediculous lol.